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HTC profits plunge 57% in face of Apple injunction, European struggles - Page 2

post #41 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

From ETSI:
"For the avoidance of doubt in exceptional cases where a STANDARD can only be implemented by technical solutions, all of which are infringements of IPRs, all such IPRs shall be considered ESSENTIAL." In fairness I do believe that I overstepped by also claiming the patent holder could be forced to license on FRAND terms. The cite only establishes the IP to be deemed essential regardless of the holder's views. Thank you for sending me on a verification check.

Look up 'red herring'.

You haven't shown that the Apple technology in question is essential in any sense. Unless there's no other way to unlock a phone, it's not essential.

In fact, can you point to a single example where a cell phone technology has been declared essential over the patent owner's objections?

For that matter, can you point to a single example where a cell phone patent owner has been forced to license?

No one has made any rational argument as to why Apple should be forced to license the technologies in question. The theoretical ability for a technology to be called essential in some rare circumstance doesn't change that.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #42 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Look up 'red herring'.
You haven't shown that the Apple technology in question is essential in any sense. Unless there's no other way to unlock a phone, it's not essential.

Look up "strawman". That's not an argument that my post is making.

melior diabolus quem scies
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melior diabolus quem scies
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post #43 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

From ETSI:
"For the avoidance of doubt in exceptional cases where a STANDARD can only be implemented by technical solutions, all of which are infringements of IPRs, all such IPRs shall be considered ESSENTIAL." In fairness I do believe that I overstepped by also claiming the patent holder could be forced to license on FRAND terms. The cite only establishes the IP to be deemed essential regardless of the holder's views. Thank you for sending me on a verification check.

Going further than that despite Microsoft's loud and long protests to the EU, they were ordered to not only license their server tech including appropriate patents, but told it would be on FRAND terms, available to all competitors.

From MS:  "The Commission also held that Microsoft violated EU competition law by failing to disclose to competitors some of its most innovative technologies relating to “server” operating systems (i.e., back-office computers that help run networks). The Commission reached this conclusion despite the fact that many of the world’s most powerful IT companies, such as IBM, Sun Microsystems, Hewlett-Packard, Novell, and Red Hat, compete vigorously in the supply of server operating systems. The Commission ordered Microsoft to create extensive documents describing its complex and innovative technologies – many of which are protected by patents and trade secrets – and to license these technologies to competitors. In recent months, the Commission has broadened the scope of this compulsory license considerably by holding that Microsoft: (i) must license these technologies even outside Europe; (ii) must license these technologies royalty-free; and (iii) cannot prevent licensees from disclosing Microsoft trade secrets in their source code."
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/legal/european/EU_Competition_Overview.mspx

As for your comments on Mr. Mueller, if you spent much time here you might know that FOSSPatents is one of my three go-to sources on patent litigation, the other two being PatentlyO and Groklaw. In the case of Mr. Mueller, he almost always has the facts he chooses to use correct, which is admirable and a good reason for my visits to his blog. He just doesn't mention any that might not be beneficial to Microsoft's goals (nor Oracle's now). You never found it odd that there's not even one article at FOSSPatents criticising Microsoft? 

Motorola isn't saying "that's the way it should work". On the contrary it's the way it does work, and Mr. Mueller is well aware of that. Since it doesn't advance Microsoft's arguments to have a mention by Mueller that MS partner Nokia reportedly wants 2.5% of a finished consumer-ready device cost for a single patent, up to 5% for 10 or more, he's not going to say a word about it. Qualcomm wants 3.5% of a completed device price not just a chipset, but don't expect FOSSPatents to mention it since it's an inconvenient fact. And those are just the two of the bigger ones. According to the ETSI, companies from Ericsson to Alcatel, and ZTE to Huawei receive royalty payments based on a percentage of a finished consumer device's price. It's not the rarity that "someone" apparently convinced you it is. 
http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/56757.html

http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/ltewimax-patent-licensing-statement#node-10731
http://www.investorvillage.com/uploads/82827/files/LESI-Royalty-Rates.pdf

I believe Microsoft's goal, Apple's as well, is to isolate Motorola as a rogue patent claimant, basing royalties on the "ridiculous notion" of a finished device. Pointing out that it's a common royalty basis for FRAND royalties in the telecom industry would not support his client's claims would it? How else to explain his failure to mention it while portraying Moto as an outlier.

So contrary to what you might think, yes I do read every single article that's posted at FOSSPatents. I also read the Twitter links he offers to better understand his sources and views. But I don't trust him to tell me the whole story. He's paid to offer support to his clients, Oracle and Microsoft among others, and IMO that support appears to extend into his personal blogs, evidenced by the total lack of any concerns or criticisms written about them. He's great with the facts. Just realize he'll dole out only those that aren't at odds with his clients gameplans as far as I can see.

Would I go so far as to say Motorola or Samsung's use of SEP's to seek injunctions is proper. No sir. Nor do I necessarily agree with a BOM being the proper royalty basis in all cases but at the same time that's been seen as proper, even by Microsoft, for a long time. Neither Apple nor Microsoft should be able to avoid paying the same royalties requested from other licensees (with credit for patents granted back in return, ie cross-licensing) and there should be consequences. I don't see any obvious reason those penalties could not be determined by a court, altho they should seldom get that far IMO. I don't support injunctions as a proper cure except in the possible case that an infringer absolutely refuses to pay royalties under any circumstance and in opposition to court rulings.

Thanks for the response and I was was wrong to to assume that you were commenting like the ignorant people on theverge, and I assume Engadget, which I have visited in a long time.

I welcome rational friendly debates 1smile.gif

I agree it is important to read many different sources, I have be to groklaw in awhile and the but the last 2 articles I read there were pieces that seem more opinion than factual, and weren't informative, more like an angry writer. I'm sure it's not all like that but it led to not return. I guess I should check it out again.

I think the Microsoft situation you raise is much different than the consumer telecom industry. It's an exception, not the rule. MS has 90+% of the consumer market and probably near the same in the corporate front office. Think about all of the companies this affects, from national airlines and train services to Airbus and EADS, to every military and government office, and even the EU administrative bodies themselves.

That whole quote basically is an antitrust legal argurement, saying you have to document and let competitors interact with the MS ecosystem. This is more of a compliance and compatibility issue, since MS basically has a monopoly position in the front of office.

I can't argue every point of yours, which I sound intelligent, bc I don't have time.

The ecommercetimes article is from April 2007, before the Android and iOS smartphone revolution, when mobile web browsers suck and smart phones weren't so smart. Of course the web page doesn't provide a link to updated coverage bc many websites were amateur back then and don't have all the manpower to consolidate their archives. This is more a pubic spat bc their contact was ending, they both wanted to look strong to their stock holders and wall street analysts in general.

The Qualcomm press release (from 2008) was interesting, thanks for linking to it. I also suspect they released it to assure investors and gov agencies after their public spat with Nokia. I don't know if you read it thoroughly though. The 3.5% rate for LTE (4g) excludes all licensees that already have a 3G license. Those licesenees get the 4G LTE licesences at the 3G rates, (3g and LTE for the price of 3g licesenes) which assuming from the wording, means less. The standard for LTE requires a device to be able to fallback on a previous generation of tech. So Qualcoom PR tries to make themselves look good, while it is actually a compatibility requirement.

The 3rd article you linked to, I haven't read the whole thing but it's interesting that Qualcomm wants the highest compensation of all. 3.25%


Leading to my next argument 1wink.gif
Why is Nortel only asking for 1% in the chart, should that changed with Rockstar now owning those patents.
Why did MS and Apple join forces and Google didn't want to be a part of it? Google did silly bidding, pie, then they baught Moto for way to much


To Be Continued
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