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Ultrabook makers fear design patent lawsuits from Apple - report - Page 2

post #41 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

As the owner of both a MacBook Air 11.6 and an HP Folio 13, I can find not a single design similarity between it and the MacBook Air other than they both happen to be slim form-factor laptops.
450
Anyway... Things like the general shape of a device should never be allowed patents in the first place.

Isn't the point of the article that the makers are afraid of getting too close to the design ... in other words they'd like to be a lot closer in copying but are worried of replicas (although I think I saw a Sony that was really close). I agree that picture you posted is not close to a Mac, it's really horrible in comparison.
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post #42 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by IYFCalvin View Post


I do believe one can run Windows OS on a Mac and run it very efficiently.

 

 

I know I do.

post #43 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

As the owner of both a MacBook Air 11.6 and an HP Folio 13, I can find not a single design similarity between it and the MacBook Air other than they both happen to be slim form-factor laptops.
450
Anyway... Things like the general shape of a device should never be allowed patents in the first place.

If you took away the color difference, they would look much more similar.
post #44 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

I quite specifically noted that it was the 'tapered shape' that the MacBook Air shares with the 2004 Sony Vaio X505, so your (straw man) attempt at making this about the location of the keyboard is completely moot.

No, that's not what I did at all.
post #45 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

If you took away the color difference, they would look much more similar.

Let's just agree to disagree with on this one, as I, as well as essentially every review of the HP Folio 13, makes note that the Hp Folio 13 is one of the few ultrabooks to have a very distinctive (as in non-tapering) shape/look, one very unlike the MacBook Air.

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post #46 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Let's just agree to disagree with on this one, as I, as well as essentially every review of the HP Folio 13, makes note that the Hp Folio 13 is one of the few ultrabooks to have a very distinctive (as in non-tapering) shape/look, one very unlike the MacBook Air.

[stupid pic removed]

So your argument is that if one Ultrabook doesn't have a tapered design then no Ultrabook is blatantly copying any of Apple's designs. What a perfectly reasonable and sane argument¡

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post #47 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

So your argument is that if one Ultrabook doesn't have a tapered design then no Ultrabook is blatantly copying any of Apple's designs. What a perfectly reasonable and sane argument¡

Reading Comprehension Issues Much?

I was very clear in stating that "the Hp Folio 13 is one of the few ultrabooks to have a very distinctive (as in non-tapering) shape/look", which was exactly what Jeff (NOT You) and I were discussing.

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Edited by DaHarder - 7/9/12 at 1:11pm
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post #48 of 74

DigiTimes article. 'Nuff said.

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post #49 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Oh Really... You mean like how Sony's Vaio X505 from 2004 had a tapered shape so striking that Apple appears to have found it suitable to 'use' on the MacBook Air?
450

I'm going to borrow a standard Samsung apologist tactic and say no one will mistake a VAIO X505 from 2004 with a modern MacBook Air.

That said, this is DigiTimes.

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post #50 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

It's funny how these coincidental similarities in HW design only seem to pop up after Apple has released a new product. It's almost as if it's not coincidental at all.


I'm still stunned that this MBA knockoff running Android is even allowed to be sold!
http://www.androidauthority.com/android-book-thd-n2-a-macbook-clone-android-ics-93542/

 

When the MBA was originally introduced, the typical iHaters and trolls lambasted Apple for its design, for choosing "pretty" over functionality, and <insert additional whining nonsense here>.

Now, "ultra books" are all the rage and (just about) all the makers are embracing the MBA style.  By sheer coincidence, those same whiners are mysteriously nowhere to be found and those that are, praise the notebooks as competition for Apple yet don't seem to have a problem with the same design that not long ago they were criticizing.  Can anyone say "Hypocrites"??

The fact it's a Digitimes article immediately puts to question the veracity of the story.  However, considering what I see out there, Apple is completely in its right as far as I'm concerned to go after anyone that mimics its design.  Go do your own freaking R&D and STOP using Apple as your R&D department!

The ultrabook designs that I see out there, while MBA clones, are truly horrible.  Sure some may cost less, but you see where that cost-cutting is going by using inferior displays, bad keyboards, flimsy designs, bad thermal management, the list keeps going.

 

But hey, you're saving your $100 right?  After all, it's all about (and only) price so you deserve what you pay for.  

post #51 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajaram View Post

I recently purchased the Samsung series 9 laptop. It is for my wife, and since she has to use it for work where she needs MS Visio and Project (both of which are unavailable for the Mac), we had to go the Windows route (otherwise, to meet her spec for the laptop - lightweight + good battery life - we'd have gone with either the MBP or MBA).

Samsung has built a beautiful laptop in terms of finish and quality (perceived), but the display on the 15", which is what we bought, is beyond Bad! The multitouch trackpad, although not as polished as in the Macs, is a welcome addition in the Windows world and very similar in capabilities to those found on the Mac laptops. And that is what I want to comment on in this post.

Anyone who has seen the touchpad settings in the MBx control panel has to be impressed with how thoughtfully and clearly Apple has illustrated the various multitouch gestures that can be made and whether to turn them on/off. So, one of the first things that I noticed in the Samsung was that they "wholesale ripped off" that concept/idea from the MBx! ;) They also have some notes in a corner of that window about patents issued about it to some "Elan Technologies" (the actual multitouch capability or the design of the settings window, they haven't clarified).


I've heard not-so-good things about the Samsung ultra books.  Especially the quality of the LCD display and the thermal problems.  Just do what I did and load Windows 7 or XP via VMware on an MBA and be in dual-OS bliss.  It's the best Windows laptop I've ever owned and that's high praise.

Don't believe me about the problem with Samsung 9 notebooks.  Just read what this guy said about how he literally got burned by one...  I'm a Samsung hater at heart, but at least this article came from a former Apple-hater and had the ability to man-up and admit he was wrong about why Apple has the best notebooks.

http://www.reddit.com/r/apple/related/rubzn/how_my_apple_hate_quite_literally_burned_me/

post #52 of 74
Apple forcing other companies to spend money on research and development?
 
wow that is so evil LOL
post #53 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagamer34 View Post

You mean, when you remove the optical drive in a laptop, it gets thinner? Man, I can't imagine if this kind of behavior existed back in the 80s or something, we'd have to have multiple keyboard designs because someone would own a patent for the QWERTY keyboard for 20 years.

 

We're just lucky they didn't have legions of patent lawyers back when Indo-Arabic numbers (you know, the system the world uses) were invented....

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanada View Post

That's it. I'm going back to school to become a patent lawyer. It's gotta be the biggest growth industry right now

 

No one should hold their breath waiting for meaningful patent law simplification and reform.  

 

I believe that a majority - or at least a plurality - of the members of Congress are lawyers.   Messy laws are good for the law biz, and keeping things the way lawyers like (with lots and lots of grey areas - the more the better) - results in beaucoup political contributions.  The trial lawyers' association - where medical malpractice suits are the bread and butter that help keep medical costs so high - is the biggest single organizational contributor to the Democratic party, which ensures that comprehensive "tort law" reform simply ain't gonna happen, though both parties are lobbied extensively by segments of the profession.

 

Another stat from a few decades back also hasn't likely changed:  The US is the most "litiginous" (law-suit filing) society in the history of the world, tho' the EU seems to be emulating our ways.   So from the legal profession's POV, their slogan about simplifying/clarifying IP law is something along the lines of, "If it ain't fixed, don't break it!"  

 

And while it's slightly out of context, Shakespeare's admonition about the first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers (paraphrased, sorry), audiences still react viscerally to the line centuries later.....

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post #54 of 74
Rumour has it that Acer has come up with a certain safe product. They have made a teak table for Macbook users. They have even triple checked that there is no wood or even pips in any Apple products.
post #55 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by hezetation View Post

Apple can't patent the idea of an ultra thin or portable laptop, that class existed with netbooks long before the Air.  Dell has had an ultraportable for quite a while and managed to make it look nothing like the Air but still look slick.  These companies are making excuses for their horrible excuse for an R&D department, they're used to just copying others & getting away with it.

Apple doesn't have a patent on ultra thin laptops - but they should be protecting their design, which has zero in common with any netbook or portable on the market.  The Sony Vaio X505 may have had a tapered design in 2004 AND Apple designers may have used it as inspiration at best, but the MacBook Air is being knocked off almost exactly by what Intel has been pushing into the pc market.  And yes, I agree that all of the manufacturers that are copying Apple in so many things they do, should be ashamed of themselves (and punished for the blatant copying).

post #56 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


I'm still stunned that this MBA knockoff running Android is even allowed to be sold!
http://www.androidauthority.com/android-book-thd-n2-a-macbook-clone-android-ics-93542/

When the MBA was originally introduced, the typical iHaters and trolls lambasted Apple for its design, for choosing "pretty" over functionality, and .


Now, "ultra books" are all the rage and (just about) all the makers are embracing the MBA style.  By sheer coincidence, those same whiners are mysteriously nowhere to be found and those that are, praise the notebooks as competition for Apple yet don't seem to have a problem with the same design that not long ago they were criticizing.  Can anyone say "Hypocrites"??


The fact it's a Digitimes article immediately puts to question the veracity of the story.  However, considering what I see out there, Apple is completely in its right as far as I'm concerned to go after anyone that mimics its design.  Go do your own freaking R&D and STOP using Apple as your R&D department!


The ultrabook designs that I see out there, while MBA clones, are truly horrible.  Sure some may cost less, but you see where that cost-cutting is going by using inferior displays, bad keyboards, flimsy designs, bad thermal management, the list keeps going.

But hey, you're saving your $100 right?  After all, it's all about (and only) price so you deserve what you pay for.  

Some of the general comments I recall are...

  • Only those with more money than cents will pay for a crippled notebook that's only a little bit lighter when they can one much faster that can do more.
  • Only fanboys think that a metal computer is a good idea.
  • Only idiots think thata milled aluminium chassis...
  • Only sheeple would buy such a piece of...

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post #57 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post


I quite specifically noted that it was the 'tapered shape' that the MacBook Air shares with the 2004 Sony Vaio X505, so your (strawman) attempt at making this about the location of the keyboard is completely moot.

Ehhh yeah, riiiight.  HE's the one putting up the "strawman".  <eyeroll>

post #58 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

The fact it's a Digitimes article immediately puts to question the veracity of the story.  However, considering what I see out there, Apple is completely in its right as far as I'm concerned to go after anyone that mimics its design.  Go do your own freaking R&D and STOP using Apple as your R&D department!

Its worse than that. 

 

Intel provided a reference platform for the Ultrabooks. They did the R&D to provide a competitive platform for manufacturers wanting to compete against Apple. UI considerations are also set for them by MS and Google - so we will ignore those (it's a whole 'nuther argument). 

 

Apple did the R&D for their internals (and lets face it, they have packed more current tech into their "Ultrabook" style platform than the Intel one had) and their UI, and applied Apple's Industrial Design (ID) aesthetic to the platform.

 

What is being copied is the ID. Or more to the point the styling cues Apple designed as part of their ID.

 

The R&D was given to them - but the ID is being copied. 

post #59 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Oh Really... You mean like how Sony's Vaio X505 from 2004 had a tapered shape so striking that Apple appears to have found it suitable to 'use' on the MacBook Air?

 

Did you ever have problems with this when you were younger?

 

Picture1.jpg


Edited by GTR - 7/9/12 at 3:01pm
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post #60 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

PC makers are said to be "facing threats from Apple" over Ultrabook designs that resemble the ultraportable MacBook Air.
Because of Apple's alleged threats, ...

 

So the title of this article and the main thrust is about these "threats" from Apple, but absolutely nothing in this article (or the source article it's ripped off from) indicate any factual basis to this at all.  One original source said he "feared" threats from Apple, which becomes definite (although not specified) threats in the DigiTimes article, which then becomes "Apple's alleged threats" here.  

 

A classic case of an absolute non-story, rising wholesale out of offhand personal remarks that have been completely misreported by the blogo-sphere.  

 

Now we can all have a long thread about how Apple is "threatening" manufacturers (how dare they! the bastards!) when in fact nothing of the sort has occurred that we actually know about. 

post #61 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


I'm still stunned that this MBA knockoff running Android is even allowed to be sold!
http://www.androidauthority.com/android-book-thd-n2-a-macbook-clone-android-ics-93542/

 

When the MBA was originally introduced, the typical iHaters and trolls lambasted Apple for its design, for choosing "pretty" over functionality, and <insert additional whining nonsense here>.

Now, "ultra books" are all the rage and (just about) all the makers are embracing the MBA style.  By sheer coincidence, those same whiners are mysteriously nowhere to be found and those that are, praise the notebooks as competition for Apple yet don't seem to have a problem with the same design that not long ago they were criticizing.  Can anyone say "Hypocrites"??

The fact it's a Digitimes article immediately puts to question the veracity of the story.  However, considering what I see out there, Apple is completely in its right as far as I'm concerned to go after anyone that mimics its design.  Go do your own freaking R&D and STOP using Apple as your R&D department!

The ultrabook designs that I see out there, while MBA clones, are truly horrible.  Sure some may cost less, but you see where that cost-cutting is going by using inferior displays, bad keyboards, flimsy designs, bad thermal management, the list keeps going.

 

But hey, you're saving your $100 right?  After all, it's all about (and only) price so you deserve what you pay for.  

 

 

Priceless stuff, 'local.

 

This puts you very near the top.  :)

post #62 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

 

Did you ever have problems with this when you were younger?

 

Picture1.jpg

 

He had problems with it last week.

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post #63 of 74
So... Apples scared them into designing there own laptops? This is a good thing. The more designers out there the better the selection.
post #64 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Did you ever have problems with this when you were younger?

LL

Good one! 1smile.gif
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post #65 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgregory1 View Post

I've wondered why Apple hasn't gone after the Air clones, yet.  I'm sure this is a complicated issue, given Intel was the company providing the design direction to the pc market.  If Apple created the design and Intel was not given the rights to offer it to others, then Apple should be going after both Intel and the pc makers who have created virtual knock-offs of the Air.

I've suspected that they haven't bothered with the Air knockoffs for two reasons.

 

1. The market isn't nearly as huge, so the economics don't make as much sense.

 

2.  If the Air knockoffs also ran an operating system which was nearly identical to OS X, they'd have much more fuel to burn them with in court.

post #66 of 74
Why does AI continue to post crsp from DigiTimes?!?
post #67 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Why does AI continue to post crsp from DigiTimes?!?

 

 

They believe that it is a good way to maximize total profits.  Why does any business do anything? 

 

The Digitimes articles are popular, and are read by many people.  They often result in long forum discussions.  All of that is good for a company that looks for ways to attract eyeballs.  So far, running Digitimes articles seems to work well for AI.

 

If they were routinely ignored, then AI would be likely to run fewer of them.  If they are popular, AI is likely to continue running them.  By giving their readers what they want, AI generates profits.

post #68 of 74
And whose profits are YOU generating, trolling and making account upon account, Connie?
post #69 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Isn't the point of the article that the makers are afraid of getting too close to the design ... in other words they'd like to be a lot closer in copying but are worried of replicas (although I think I saw a Sony that was really close). I agree that picture you posted is not close to a Mac, it's really horrible in comparison.
I believe the Envy was the HP laptop accused of being a MBP clone.

P1060836.JPG

Of course it's different enough that Apple probably couldn't sue. But it would be nice if there was a bit more originality. Samsung and Lenovo seem to be able to do it.

Acer's Ultrabook offerings are very close to MBA design. Again not an exact copy of course but no originality that's for sure.

Acer%20Aspire%20S3%20Ultrabook%20Laptop%2022.jpg

And then Dell just came out with an all-in-one that is quite reminiscent of the iMac. Once again not exactly the same but not really different either.

xsone27_lsy_00180b90_gy_1.jpg

Of course none of these have the fit and finish of Apple's offerings. They remind me a bit of a knock off Louis Vuitton or Chanel handbag.
post #70 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

And then Dell just came out with an all-in-one that is quite reminiscent of the iMac. Once again not exactly the same but not really different either.

O~f course…

👺
post #71 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


I believe the Envy was the HP laptop accused of being a MBP clone.
P1060836.JPG
Of course it's different enough that Apple probably couldn't sue. But it would be nice if there was a bit more originality. Samsung and Lenovo seem to be able to do it.
Acer's Ultrabook offerings are very close to MBA design. Again not an exact copy of course but no originality that's for sure.
Acer%20Aspire%20S3%20Ultrabook%20Laptop%2022.jpg
And then Dell just came out with an all-in-one that is quite reminiscent of the iMac. Once again not exactly the same but not really different either.
 

 

The detail that caught my attention was that Apple has long centered the trackpad on the case, whereas PC laptop makers have centered their trackpads between the position of the hands on the keyboard (approximately where the letter 'B' on a QWERTY keyboard is). However, with these new Ultrabooks, it seems they have subtly shifted the location of the trackpad to follow Apple's love of symmetry: right down the center of the case.

 

Coincidence or more imitation of the Mac?

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post #72 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

It's funny how these coincidental similarities in HW design only seem to pop up after Apple has released a new product. It's almost as if it's not coincidental at all.

Apple has become associated with trendsetting in electronics. I think other brands don't want to risk standing out in a bad way. If their margins are thinner at the low to mid range price points that turn over in large volume, a flop could really hurt them. What annoys me is when other brands take the wrong design cues from Apple (ugh glossy displays). I like that Apple is messing around with treated glass. Getting reflectivity down to a manageable level was something that was really necessary.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


You know better than that. Design is about the finer details. A tapered body isn't that, it's just a shape primitive. Take a look at HP's ultrabook and compare it vs. the Air and vs your X505. You can take detail shots of the HP and they'll look just like the same shot on an Air. That isn't true of the X505.


Most of the people I've seen comment on them pay very little attention to the details. It's usually just a single angle side by side, when design patents are usually very specific to the point where such a comparison doesn't work well. I haven't been able to turn up a lot of verifiable or well sourced details relative to how design patents are tested though in terms of validity and potential infringement. I wish I could add something more interesting, but it seems weird passing conclusive judgment on these devices without actually using them.

post #73 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

He had problems with it last week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Did you ever have problems with this when you were younger?

LL

I see him having problems with that since ever I read his posts.

But I have to admit his posts usually make me laugh quit a bit.
That's why I wouldn't put him on the ignore list yet.
;-)
post #74 of 74
You might just find that the Macbook Air is a collaborative Intel design. It is obviously more profitable to collaborate and sell to Apple first. The fact that Ultrabooks are so similar hints that this is very much the case. Considering Galaxy Tabs and iPad are incredibly dissimilar compared to an ultrabooks and an Air, it is credible that both designs are Intel.
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