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post #41 of 51
7/10/12 at 7:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefoid View Post

TBH, I have no view on Apple's tax affairs, but your definition of a loophole is incorrect.

The situations you cite are just normal tax rules, not loopholes.  A tax loophole is where someone finds a way to circumvent certain tax rules without breaking the law.  One is adhering to the rules, the other is adhering to none (whilst not breaking any either).

Nonsense. That's a silly, arbitrary definition. Using the tax laws in a legal manner is simply following tax rules. Only people who want to mindlessly attack someone call it a loophole.

But even if you were correct, where's your evidence that Apple has circumvented the tax rules? The argument seems to be that the 'loophole' they are using is in earning money overseas and leaving it there. Just how is that circumventing the rules? Aren't the rules set up specifically to cover that situation?

Now, personally, the tax code in the US is a disaster and I doubt that it's any different anywhere else. I would favor massive simplification - throwing out just about everything but a simple formula:

First X dollars are not taxed.
Next Y dollars are taxed at rate a%.
Everything above X+Y taxed at rate b%.

Use GAP to define income.

Problem solved. However, even that would not stop the whining on this topic. You have to add in the principle of national autonomy. The United States does not have any jurisdiction over Ireland or Singapore or China or anywhere else. Money earned in those countries is under the jurisdiction of those countries and they can tax it however they wish. Only if the money is transferred to the US would the US have any jurisdiction.
Edited by jragosta - 7/10/12 at 7:39am
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post #42 of 51
7/10/12 at 8:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Nonsense. That's a silly, arbitrary definition. Using the tax laws in a legal manner is simply following tax rules. Only people who want to mindlessly attack someone call it a loophole.

Nice try, but its not arbitrary at all.  A tax loophole is:

 

 

Note that its an ambiguity in the system, not something that is planned for in the rules.

 

Just to be clear here, I am not accusing Apple of using loopholes to avoid tax, they may or may not be but I'm not an expert so can't comment on that.  This was in response to your previous post where your definition of 'loophole' was not correct.

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post #43 of 51
7/10/12 at 8:37am
Well if overseas its that big they are well over 100billion overall. Plz apple make a big move! Buy a cable company and disrupt entertainment giving a la cart live streaming tv channels. Or buy nintendo and disrupt both handhelds and consoles with a iPhone/iPod controller case and a iPad/apple tv Bluetooth controller with air play integration. Or disrupt the telecoms by buying a US cellular company and add cellular to all apple products with a single account plus VoIP on each one.

Come on do something!!!
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post #44 of 51
7/10/12 at 9:32am
What? You don't grasp that allowing a free riders to exploit the best nation to operate from is a bad result? That's the real short version. Taxes are part of the deal. They were at the beginning and they still are. Free riders destroy the cradle of capitalism. No legal framework, no infrastructure and a paucity of educated workers is what's bad about these tax concession demands.

FWIW, capitol investments within the U.S. receive tax benefits - called depreciation.
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post #45 of 51
7/10/12 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post

I also run a company in Ireland. Does that mean I am also exploiting a tax loophole by paying Irish tax? Or is it ok for me to do so, but not ok for Apple?

Comparing Apples & Oranges 'hood. Sloppy.

Not much of a shock coming from a company operating within one of the PIIGS, now is it?

What matters, 'hood, is if your company established a wholly-owned subsidiary in Spain and built widgets there without paying salaries to your "employees" and arrange to exchange all funds buying supplies and taking profits in the Cayman Islands - never having your profits touch and concern Spain or Ireland. Skip the VAT, dump any tariffs and exploit the Spaniards while racking up profits in foreign tax havens. Is that your goal?
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post #46 of 51
7/10/12 at 9:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by philster1919 View Post

haha - this would be hilarious if there weren't so much at stake.

the story is about apple exploiting tax loopholes in order to avoid paying the tax that they would otherwise be required to pay in order to help the local economies (and the people) who live in the areas that service their facillities, and instead people would rather talk about the font that there signage is painted in.

not everyone who works for apple is a designer or top exec. apple need people to clean their offices, to take away their trash, maintain their transport links, roads, and so on. all these things come out of funds raised by public taxation. in choosing to hoard their money off-shore, apple is simply trying to do everything they can to avoid giving back to the local communities on which they rely.

and of *course* they are not doing anything illegal. and of *course* there will be people on this forum who have vested interests in apple making as much profit as possible. but let's not try and paint this as anything other than apple taking the decision to straightforwardly put profits over the wellbeing of the people who help them do business. some on here are going to think 'go for it'. but, i hope, not many are that selfish or unwilling to look beyond their own situation to put themselves in the shoes of people who have less, and rely on industries like apple to pay their fair share.

and let's not have anyone use the 'well, if they don't like working for apple they can quit and get another job' argument. this is a hoax, and an insulting one. many people simply cannot upstages and leave their local community. not because they're lazy, but because it's too much upheaval: they might have family that can't move with them, they might have kids that they can't take out of school, or any one of countless other things. people do what they can in, quite often, difficult circumstances and in off-shoring its financial resources in order to avoid paying tax apple is making it harder for people, not easier.

Well, a bit scattershot, but a fine early post.

N.B. holding profits overseas is not a tax loophole. It is a failure of the parent company to report profits to the taxing authority in the nation that the company is domiciled. In the U.S. it is illegal pursuant to Title 26 of the United States Code.
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post #47 of 51
7/10/12 at 10:28am

Apple does it...it's just business.

General Electric does it...it's an outrage!

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post #48 of 51
7/10/12 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by philster1919 View Post

hi - yes, i joined appleinsider today. does this mean i'm not allowed to express my opinion? everyone has to have a 'first post', don't they?

 

also, by 'troll' here i assume you mean 'someone who i don't agree with'?  

Don't worry, GTR hates everyone so just put him on the block list like others have.

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post #49 of 51
7/10/12 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony View Post

Don't worry, GTR hates everyone so just put him on the block list like others have.

That's as true as any of your other posts.
PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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PhilBoogie
That's Google alright. For a stupid company they sure do dumb things.
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post #50 of 51
7/11/12 at 12:01am

I think people are confusing tax evasion with tax avoidance. If Apple were moving earned profits overseas out of the US, that would be tax evasion, which is illegal. What Apple is doing is refusing to repatriate profits that were earned overseas to avoid paying repatriation taxes. That is tax avoidance, which is not illegal.

 

I get the argument that Apple should pay tax because it is using infrastructure, but who's infrastructure is it using? If the profits were earned overseas, the Apple is using the infrastructure of the country where it does business. Apple has already paid taxes on that overseas cash. It paid taxes to the local governments where it did business to earn those profits. Apple is refusing to pay tax to the US government on profits earned overseas on which it has already paid taxes.

 

US citizens who work in foreign countries have to pay tax to both the country in which they work and the US. I think it is a ludicrous and draconian law. What right does the US government have to income that a US citizen earns while working overseas? I see a parallel between this and the situation Apple is facing. Apple is headquartered in the US but it has operations worldwide. Apple earns money from overseas operations. The countries in which Apple operates and earns a profit have a right to those earned profits. For example, if Apple does business in Spain, then Spain can tax Apple's earnings in Spain. But why should Apple pay tax to the US government on profits that it earned in Spain?

 

Apple did not stash money overseas in order to avoid paying taxes. The money that's overseas was earned overseas. It was never in the US to begin with.

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post #51 of 51
7/11/12 at 10:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvswarup View Post

I think people are confusing tax evasion with tax avoidance. If Apple were moving earned profits overseas out of the US, that would be tax evasion, which is illegal. What Apple is doing is refusing to repatriate profits that were earned overseas to avoid paying repatriation taxes. That is tax avoidance, which is not illegal.

I get the argument that Apple should pay tax because it is using infrastructure, but who's infrastructure is it using? If the profits were earned overseas, the Apple is using the infrastructure of the country where it does business. Apple has already paid taxes on that overseas cash. It paid taxes to the local governments where it did business to earn those profits. Apple is refusing to pay tax to the US government on profits earned overseas on which it has already paid taxes.

US citizens who work in foreign countries have to pay tax to both the country in which they work and the US. I think it is a ludicrous and draconian law. What right does the US government have to income that a US citizen earns while working overseas? I see a parallel between this and the situation Apple is facing. Apple is headquartered in the US but it has operations worldwide. Apple earns money from overseas operations. The countries in which Apple operates and earns a profit have a right to those earned profits. For example, if Apple does business in Spain, then Spain can tax Apple's earnings in Spain. But why should Apple pay tax to the US government on profits that it earned in Spain?

Apple did not stash money overseas in order to avoid paying taxes. The money that's overseas was earned overseas. It was never in the US to begin with.

Exactly where do you find your citations for these propositions:

(1) "Apple has already paid taxes on that overseas cash. It paid taxes to the local governments where it did business to earn those profits."

(2) "US citizens who work in foreign countries have to pay tax to both the country in which they work and the US."
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