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San Francisco to cease Mac purchases without EPEAT certification - Page 2

post #41 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by danv2 View Post

They are 40% of the purchases and systems installed at the government organization I work for. This is a dangerous thing as we have become pretty reliant on them. I'm not kidding or joking.

Unless your agency wants to take a symbolic stand against Apple then there are plenty of currently sold Macs that have passed EPEAT certification even if they are not currently listed.

As I stated in the first thread on this issue, I think Apple is moving to a new design that is more iDevice-like and therefore will continue to make further EPEAT certifications impossible. Therefore they being proactive about retaining the control here.

How many is 40%? How much profit is that really for Apple compared to the retail priced for the millions of consumers that might not buy a Mac because a competitor is making a better system that they can't compete with while trying to maintain EPEAT ratings across their entire Mac line? Let's not forget that other vendors have a vast number of models compared to a very small number of SKUs from Apple

If anyone is negatively affected here it's the users that rely on Macs in an agency that doesn't want to admit how outmoded EPEAT is or the hypocrisy that they don't require it for other devices. I'm guessing that eventually the desire for Macs will win out before Apple's desire for a few government sales.

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post #42 of 192
I must be missing something here. So what are they going to buy instead ... I have never seen a PC that wasn't a recycle nightmare. Maybe as some one joked, this is a prelude to going 100% iPad. /smile

This was dictated on my Mac
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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post #43 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post


If you live in the USA you need San Francisco.
True. It's good to have around so that the south has someone they can make fun of.
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post #44 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX View Post


Are you a recycling specialist? Apparently no, because glue does make recycling much more difficult.

 

And you are a specialist your self? Recycling specialist are undergraduate people who destroy things all days for living. I don't thinks glued battery is much more difficult to recycle than a CRT or any other electronics appliance. 

post #45 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX View Post

Are you a recycling specialist? Apparently no, because glue does make recycling much more difficult.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcomeau View Post

Its not about whether it is possible to disassemble it, it is whether it is possible to disassemble it without it costing an arm and a leg. Everything is recyclable if money were not an object. So instead of spending a few $$ now to design it to be recyclable with simple tools (i,e, economically feasible), they make it cheaper up front and make it too expensive at the back end to recycle. Kind of like we pay for the cost of extracting and refining oil, but we don't pay the cost of the damage burning the oil actually does. If Apple is supposed to consider the entire life cycle, economically feasible recycling is supposed to be part of it.

I don't think it's that hard. A major part of EPEAT is about the ability of a user to disassemble it, and I don't think many do that. I'd love to prove that the glue can easily be removed, but I don't see the need to do that until after one has served out its useful life. Once you have a system, I doubt it would take more than five minutes to remove the battery. It may just be as simple as the gentle application of heat or cold on the outside of the shell and a dulled putty knife.
post #46 of 192

At first glance, this topic makes Apple look less righteous…, particularly with Al Gore on Apple's Board, given his High Profile on Environment Related Topics. I suspect that there is more to this story than meets the eye.  

 

I also recall that Apple Stores accepted Apple Products for Recycling! So, if that is still in effect, all one has to do is bring their old Apple products to Apple Store, and Apple would take care if that the right way, in accordance with the Environment Laws… So, maybe those Laws need to be Updated? Maybe there is some Outdated Technicality in those Laws and Procedures that Apple disagrees with, and rightfully so? Maybe there is some Politics going on there that are not Friendly to Apple specifically? But I'd rather not consider any Conspiracy Theories particularly in the US Elections Year… :)! 

 

 

It'd be great if Apple explained this officially, rather than allow Forums like this one, and media spin this in a way that might be unfriendly to Apple! Hopefully will hear about this from Apple directly and soon!  

 

As to San Francisco - it's a GREAT PLANCE! The opinion of the few people, like politicians, etc anywhere, shouldn't lead to generalizing on larger things. Unfortunately, stereotyping like that is a Common Human Error….


Edited by macologist - 7/10/12 at 10:07am

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post #47 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by danv2 View Post

I work for the Federal Government, and as a rule the organization I work for (which will remain anonymous) can only buy 5% of its purchases as non-EPEAT compliant. Therefore, Apple has painted themselves into corner on government sales at the US Federal level. If either EPEAT or Apple cannot budge you will see a large backlash of data on this issue. I'm not saying either should change, but the plain fact is that Macs and other Apple mobile devices won't be looked to as a purchasable item for government and educational use.

This is perhaps the largest mistake Apple could have made, politically speaking, with regards to government and education.

Apple makes a lot of decisions that we don't really understand at the time they'e made, which turn out to be quite sound later on, if not pure genius.

Precious few in the industry are as prescient as Apple. Smart money says this decision too, falls under the "holy shit, they were right all along!" heading.
post #48 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post


Apple makes a lot of decisions that we don't really understand at the time they'e made, which turn out to be quite sound later on, if not pure genius.
Precious few in the industry are as prescient as Apple. Smart money says this decision too, falls under the "holy shit, they were right all along!" heading.

 

Apple is probably in the process of having the EPEAT standards updated as we speak.

 

[ a lot has happened in 6 years ]

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post #49 of 192
For those that complain that Apple is going backward with the recycle-ability of their computers are missing the point. The problem isn't Apple or their products, it's the EPEAT certification that has not kept up with advances and changes in computer product manufacturing. I can just see the conversations Apple had with EPEAT people. Apple, "So we've made our products better with less or no toxic chemicals and they are fully recyclable and we'd like you to update the certification protocol to address this." EPEAT staff, "But Apple, none of the other manufacturers are able to produce their computers in the same way and they would all become out of spec if we made the change - so we're not going to change until the majority of other computer manufacturers copy your production methods."

Apple's response, "Go screw yourselves. We'll create our own program that makes your antiquated system look like exactly what it is - worthless."

I would make bets that I'm not far off from how things played out.
post #50 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by macologist View Post

As to San Francisco - it's a GREAT PLANCE! The opinion of the few people, like politicians, etc anywhere, shouldn't lead to generalizing on larger things. Unfortunately, stereotyping like that is a Common Human Error….

 

I know what you're saying. Even though I'm bashing San Francisco here, the politicians in my city aren't much better. In my city, the mini-Stalin of a mayor is banning soda! Somebody needs to remind these people that this is the USA and not North Korea.

post #51 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


I don't think it's that hard. A major part of EPEAT is about the ability of a user to disassemble it, and I don't think many do that. I'd love to prove that the glue can easily be removed, but I don't see the need to do that until after one has served out its useful life. Once you have a system, I doubt it would take more than five minutes to remove the battery. It may just be as simple as the gentle application of heat or cold on the outside of the shell and a dulled putty knife.

Didnt those tear down sites(ifixit etc) try that?

Im sure its possible to tear down these macs, but these EPEAT rules are written for the average dumpster diver/charity org etc and not for the more sophisticated disassembler.

 

In the USA, EPEAT probably does not make sense for Apple because they take everything back anyways.. don't they?

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post #52 of 192

The problem is that with the battery glued in  it makes it much harder to remove the battery without getting the batteries chemicals  all over you. You cant just heat up the glue to unstick it since there is  now a battery in the way.

 

Also if apple makes there own program it still does not stop the fact that governments and schools now cannot order from them.

 

I do see apple making government and education only models that are certified by epeat .

post #53 of 192

Stupid hippies. 

post #54 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortom1981 View Post

Also if apple makes there own program it still does not stop the fact that governments and schools now cannot order from them.

 

They're ordering boatloads of iPads. iPads are immune.

post #55 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


In other news, Apple to move all business to Indiana.


So, governements should tailor their decisions to big companies possible business decisions rather than the public good?

Great thinking.

 

In other news, America in 2074 attacked Canada to relocate its citizens after several major nuclear plant failures. It is reported that the plants had been built with insecure reactors, a decision validated due to risks that the energy companies might move their business to Canada. Huh.

 

Yes, it's a political fiction to strengthen my point via exaggeration, for those who wonder how I got news from 2074...

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post #56 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

 

They're ordering boatloads of iPads. iPads are immune.

Can I haz iPad immunity too?

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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post #57 of 192
.... Then do the right thing you whiner and give up your Apple products for MS junk. Then you will be politically correct. Idiot.
post #58 of 192

Talking about iPads... I wonder if Apple will ever do a "Product RED iPad". I'd buy that in a heartbeat, even if they make it more expensive :D

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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post #59 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by boeyc15 View Post

Didnt those tear down sites(ifixit etc) try that?

Im sure its possible to tear down these macs, but these EPEAT rules are written for the average dumpster diver/charity org etc and not for the more sophisticated disassembler.

 

In the USA, EPEAT probably does not make sense for Apple because they take everything back anyways.. don't they?


If Apple has a governement&education hardware-retirement program, this is the worst non-news I've ever read on AI...

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

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post #60 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgregory1 View Post

Apple's response, "Go screw yourselves. We'll create our own program that makes your antiquated system look like exactly what it is - worthless."
I would make bets that I'm not far off from how things played out.

Safeguarding Communities by Recycling Electronic Wares Union (SCREWU)?

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post #61 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

Talking about iPads... I wonder if Apple will ever do a "Product RED iPad". I'd buy that in a heartbeat, even if they make it more expensive :D

I sure hope not! I don't want to think of AIDS every time that I picked up a bright red colored iPad. iPads look great the way they are now, they don't need any RED ones, in my opinion. I bet that the RED iPads would be a huge hit in San Francisco though, for some reason.

post #62 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

And what really pissed me off about San Francisco, is that they're supposed to be known as some progressive and hip city, and I was traveling through a bunch of US states a while ago, and I am a weed connoisseur, and can you believe that out of all of the states which I visited, which were many, just about the only place where I didn't manage to buy any weed was in San Francisco? What a joke. Every other state was easy. Maybe it was just extremely bad luck, but that didn't help San Francisco's image much in my opinion.


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post #63 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

 

 

If you live in the USA you need San Francisco.

Because???  Actually, I think the US would be better off without.

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post #64 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgregory1 View Post

For those that complain that Apple is going backward with the recycle-ability of their computers are missing the point. The problem isn't Apple or their products, it's the EPEAT certification that has not kept up with advances and changes in computer product manufacturing. I can just see the conversations Apple had with EPEAT people. Apple, "So we've made our products better with less or no toxic chemicals and they are fully recyclable and we'd like you to update the certification protocol to address this." EPEAT staff, "But Apple, none of the other manufacturers are able to produce their computers in the same way and they would all become out of spec if we made the change - so we're not going to change until the majority of other computer manufacturers copy your production methods."
Apple's response, "Go screw yourselves. We'll create our own program that makes your antiquated system look like exactly what it is - worthless."
I would make bets that I'm not far off from how things played out.

 

Except they created THIS program. 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

 

They're ordering boatloads of iPads. iPads are immune.

 

Maybe in some cases, but that's not an answer and the original poster was correct. In speaking to my mother just yesterday, since shes retiring in August she's planned out everything to December and they too have just cancelled their next cycle of Mac replacements on her for this reason; not because they want to, but have to. Apple may have something else in place sometime soon, but this definitely seems like they jumped the gun on ripping out of this first. 

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post #65 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightlie View Post

Not surprising, this was bound to happen. It's very disappointing that Apple have chosen to go in this direction.

 

Actually, it is great that they are doing it. They looked at their market and decided that pointless, feel-good B.S. was going to interfere with their business. Then, they took appropriate action to eliminate the interference.

 

They should be applauded for their actions.

 

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post #66 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

A bunch of really sick people live in San Francisco. Isn't that the same city that banned happy meals a while ago? Those people are batshit insane. And they've also considered banning pets? Is that an actual American city or is it some little communist town run by radical, authoritarian, dictator wannabes? It's like a prison for freaks.

 

As for San Fran banning Macs from being bought by city agencies, who cares? As the article said, Macs only make up a percent or two of their complete usage, so let 'em ban what they want. Apple doesn't need San Fran, and neither do I.

 

Wow, what an angry, uninformed post. A couple of things:

 

1) Apple practically owes its existence to San Francisco and its culture. Do you think free-wheeling, acid-dropping Steve Jobs of the 70's would've turned out the same had he grown up in Middle America? 

 

2)  The US has the fattest, unhealthiest kids in the developed world. Not only are millions of them expected to live shorter lives than their parents, but it costs the US some $150-200 billion a year. Some would say it's insane to incentivize kids' eating of burgers and fried chicken fast food with toys.

 

3) The proposed law banned the sale of animals; it did not ban pets. 

 

But yes, I guess if you have a different point of view, that makes San Francisco "batshit insane...radical, authoritarian dictator wannabes". Dramatic much? 

post #67 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

Talking about iPads... I wonder if Apple will ever do a "Product RED iPad". I'd buy that in a heartbeat, even if they make it more expensive :D

 

They make a Product Red iPad cover and Smart Case I believe.

 

Ever since the story about removing theircomputers from EPEAT hit I have been waiting for Greenpeace to claim Apple is the devil again :)  I have my popcorn, I just hope it won't go stale waiting.

post #68 of 192
Without San Francisco, Sir Jony might just pack up and head back to England.

As for Apple ]['s tragic weed experience, it would be good to remember that:

1. most pot is sold through dispensaries now, you need a prescription, and there's not much on the streets, and:

2., what street weed you might find would not be available to one with the social skills of Apple ][.
post #69 of 192

This smells of apple taking their ball and going home. Makes no sense otherwise. Why would they pull EPEAT from old products? A vote of no-confidence in EPEAT? A political move?

 

The speed of San Fran's response is pretty startling. And the fact this will have a domino effect killing all government Mac sales is very bad news.

 

I find it hard to believe apple could have screwed up this badly. They must have a VERY strong internal reason for doing this. The 64K question is, what is that reason? This can't be just typical apple posturing, like they did when they pulled Flash from iOS. If it was, why wouldn't they come out with some explanation for the move?

 

Something very serious is going on that we don't know about.

post #70 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooch View Post

[only a] nobody calls it 'san fran'.

 

I have lived here for almost 20 years and I've never heard a local frown on 'san fran'.  The term "Frisco" is the one long time SF'ers have told me they don't like.  But no one I know bristles at "san fran".  As if it matters...

 

I have a complex relationship with my adopted hometown.  I still think it's gorgeous physically and I think in terms of value to quality there's no better place to eat out in the US.  Other than NYC, I can't imagine living anywhere else, at least for the time being.

 

But I also think the City run primarily by left-wing, morally high-handed, puritanical ideologues.  Not surprising given all the self-absorbed degenerates who populate the city itself (myself and friends excluded, of course!).  This move against Apple is hardly a shock.

post #71 of 192

So on the basis of the EPEAT listing - government agencies will now buy non-Apple products and replace them every two years - thus keeping the recycling economy flowing - instead of buying Apple products that last two to three times as long but which cannot be as easily recycled. 

 

I suspect that the request to remove all Apple products from the list likely stems from items such as not wanting to paint a giant question mark on the latest products asking why are they not on the list - or constant pestering about when they will be added to the list. Also, there very well may be some sort of on-going licensing or other fees - and dropping from the program entirely eliminates those costs. If most of the products on the list are end of life then not having them officially listed makes no difference in sales since you can't sell something that you stopped making (after the existing pipeline runs dry). 

post #72 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


So, governements should tailor their decisions to big companies possible business decisions rather than the public good?

Don't they already do that?
post #73 of 192

Funny how posters here assume that Apple shot itself in the foot. Do you think Apple did this in a daze without considering the ramifications? Do you think Apple doesn't have something in the works to address this? Do you think Tim Cook is stupid? The rumor is that Apple will propose new EPEAT standards that update the reality of environmentally safe manufacturing. 

post #74 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

Without San Francisco, Sir Jony might just pack up and head back to England.
As for Apple ]['s tragic weed experience, it would be good to remember that:
1. most pot is sold through dispensaries now, you need a prescription, and there's not much on the streets, and:
2., what street weed you might find would not be available to one with the social skills of Apple ][.

1. It seems like a lot of those dispensaries are being raided and shutdown, left and right. 

 

2. My social skills didn't pose any problems in any other state that I visited during that trip. Weed was everywhere and easy to get, as long as you had the cash. But in progressive and hip San Francisco? Not so. I visited around 15 states during that trip.

post #75 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by acslater017 View Post

1) Apple practically owes its existence to San Francisco and its culture. Do you think free-wheeling, acid-dropping Steve Jobs of the 70's would've turned out the same had he grown up in Middle America? 

Do you think Apple owes San Francisco anything whatsoever?
Quote:
Some would say it's insane to incentivize kids' eating of burgers and fried chicken fast food with toys.

Even more would say it's insane that someone else thinks they can tell me what I can eat and in what quantities.

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post #76 of 192
Quote:

Originally Posted by enjourni View Post

 

I find it hard to believe apple could have screwed up this badly. They must have a VERY strong internal reason for doing this. The 64K question is, what is that reason? This can't be just typical apple posturing, like they did when they pulled Flash from iOS. If it was, why wouldn't they come out with some explanation for the move?

 

Something very serious is going on that we don't know about.

 

You think? Meanwhile the environmental hand wringing crescendos to a fever pitch. EVIL Apple they cry! 

post #77 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by enjourni View Post

This smells of apple taking their ball and going home. Makes no sense otherwise.

We didn't understand the iPad, either.

We didn't understand their decision about Flash.

We couldn't imagine how an App Store model could be better than scattered online downloads.

Now everyone else agrees with, or is doing (or trying to do) all of the above.

There's probably a plan in place already at Apple. I doubt any of this new comes as a surprise to them.

Is it fair to say Apple Knows Best? That's probably reaching, but if you want a poster-child for that idiom, Apple usually comes closest.
post #78 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

 

I know what you're saying. Even though I'm bashing San Francisco here, the politicians in my city aren't much better. In my city, the mini-Stalin of a mayor is banning soda! Somebody needs to remind these people that this is the USA and not North Korea.

Wow, talk about your first world problems.  He's right up there with Stalin, for sure.  

post #79 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe View Post

Except they created THIS program. 

Maybe in some cases, but that's not an answer and the original poster was correct. In speaking to my mother just yesterday, since shes retiring in August she's planned out everything to December and they too have just cancelled their next cycle of Mac replacements on her for this reason; not because they want to, but have to. Apple may have something else in place sometime soon, but this definitely seems like they jumped the gun on ripping out of this first. 

Apple helped create the program years ago - but times changed. And Apple's manufacturing procedures changed. I'm guessing they've been talking with EPEAT about changing their certification policy, but EPEAT now also has a lot of pc manufacturers who are completely happy to do things the same way they've been doing them for the past decade. They won't change for Apple as that will make the pc makers out of compliance.

So, just for fun, let's say Apple figures out a way to make their computers not just recyclable, but completely bio-nuetral as they make them out of dirt and they can be used as fertilizer when you're done using them (I know, that isn't going to happen, but bare with me). So, these new green Apple computers (not to be mistaken for Green Apples) do NOT meet the EPEAT certifications. So that makes it the right thing for governments or businesses or consumers to not buy and use these new computers because they are not EPEAT compliant?
post #80 of 192

Here is my take, far-fetched as it may be:

 

Apple helped to create these standards in the first place knowing what direction their manufacturing was going.

They also knew the iPhone and iPad would be exempt. (don't forget that iOS was made for a tablet before it came out on the iPhone...)

 

Now all other manufacturers hold back their designs to comply with this standard while Apple simply moves past it with the iPad and everything else.

Apple knows how much revenue (or how little) comes from adhering to EPEAT.  If they give it up, they leave it for the other manufacturers to fight over while Apple moves forward. The others stagnate.  

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