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San Francisco to cease Mac purchases without EPEAT certification - Page 3

post #81 of 192

No big deal really.  Since all the PC manufacturers are taking design cues from Apple,all of their products should lose their EPEAT certification soon as well.  Then who are you going to buy from SF?

post #82 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by danv2 View Post
This is perhaps the largest mistake Apple could have made, politically speaking, with regards to government and education.

 

This is a hint of "Apple 3.0" -- The slow, arrogant, downfall of Apple, Inc. 

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post #83 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX View Post


Are you a recycling specialist? Apparently no, because glue does make recycling much more difficult.

 

This would be dependant on both the glue and the materials used.  You are making an even more blanket statement than the one you are protesting, and likely have less support for your position than the original poster.  

 

Two things seem clear to me:

 

- When the spec was written, glued components were typically a recycling problem or they wouldn't have included that "problem" in the spec. 

- A blanket ban on glued components is going to cover really nasty "bad" glue, but also cases where easily dissolvable glue is used as well.

 

The other thing to remember about all of this is that EPEAT is not a government certification and can be easily modified.  Has it been reviewed since it's creation? Does it even have a built in process for review?  A "proper" government certification should have. 

post #84 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

A bunch of really sick people live in San Francisco. Isn't that the same city that banned happy meals a while ago? Those people are batshit insane. And they've also considered banning pets? Is that an actual American city or is it some little communist town run by radical, authoritarian, dictator wannabes? It's like a prison for freaks.

 

As for San Fran banning Macs from being bought by city agencies, who cares? As the article said, Macs only make up a percent or two of their complete usage, so let 'em ban what they want. Apple doesn't need San Fran, and neither do I.

 

Jeepers dude, please die soon.  

Your old-age rants about "kids today" (or whatever is on your mind), are really getting crazier and crazier.  

 

The other day it was "all Koreans" now it's "all San Franciscans"??? WTF?  

 

Can't you exist without making broad, offensive generalisations about every group of folks that isn't old, white, and conservative?  

 

To use a metaphor from what I assume is your generation ... lately you come across like Mr. Wilson from "Denis the Menace," (North American version not UK).  

post #85 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by bottleworks View Post

This is a hint of "Apple 3.0" -- The slow, arrogant, downfall of Apple, Inc. 

You forgot to add "Steve would have never let this happen!'

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post #86 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Funny how posters here assume that Apple shot itself in the foot. Do you think Apple did this in a daze without considering the ramifications? Do you think Apple doesn't have something in the works to address this? Do you think Tim Cook is stupid? The rumor is that Apple will propose new EPEAT standards that update the reality of environmentally safe manufacturing. 


Jony Ive is just evil and spends his free time dumping Macs in landfills.  He doesn't give a damn about the environment if it costs him a millimeter of thinness. /s

post #87 of 192

deleted


Edited by kellya74u - 7/24/13 at 9:34am
post #88 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


So, governements should tailor their decisions to big companies possible business decisions rather than the public good?

Great thinking.

 

In other news, America in 2074 attacked Canada to relocate its citizens after several major nuclear plant failures. It is reported that the plants had been built with insecure reactors, a decision validated due to risks that the energy companies might move their business to Canada. Huh.

 

Yes, it's a political fiction to strengthen my point via exaggeration, for those who wonder how I got news from 2074...

 

The USA only attacked Canada once (we were the very first attack by the very first US Armed forces), but they lost.  Quite badly too.   

 

If Canada wasn't so damn polite and gave all the territory they won off the USA back, everything North of the Mississippi would be Canada right now.  

post #89 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

I don't know about you personally, I'm referring to your politicians, and when I mean sick, I am referring to mental issues.


are you a medical doctor?  pshychologist?  psychiatrist?  can you please post your credentials?  have you examined our politicians?  can you post a link to your report?

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post #90 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte View Post

 

 

If you live in the USA you need San Francisco.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Uh, for what?

 

For the chase scene in Bullitt, duh!

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post #91 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooch View Post


are you a medical doctor?  pshychologist?  psychiatrist?  can you please post your credentials?  have you examined our politicians?  can you post a link to your report?

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. You shouldn't take everything that you read so seriously.

post #92 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

Jeepers dude, please die soon.  

Your old-age rants about "kids today" (or whatever is on your mind), are really getting crazier and crazier.  

 

The other day it was "all Koreans" now it's "all San Franciscans"??? WTF?  

 

Can't you exist without making broad, offensive generalisations about every group of folks that isn't old, white, and conservative?  

 

To use a metaphor from what I assume is your generation ... lately you come across like Mr. Wilson from "Denis the Menace," (North American version not UK).  

You seem to have an issue with old people, you should examine your bigotry.

 

And just for the record, I'm neither a kid, nor am I old. So unfortunately for you, I'll be around for quite a while, unless I get hit by a bus or something later on today.

post #93 of 192

Pointless nanny state regulations which are nothing more than a program to line the pockets of special interest groups standing in the way of the advancement of technology.

(Remember these are the same ass clowns who block nuclear)

post #94 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by bottleworks View Post

 

This is a hint of "Apple 3.0" -- The slow, arrogant, downfall of Apple, Inc. 

 

Downfall of what?

The MacBook Pro with Retna Display is the best laptop on the market.

post #95 of 192

Tim Cook is a bean counter MBA type.  The company is making money hand over fist, but what does he do?  He glues in the batteries on a $2500+ laptop to save a bit on machining.  He institutes a proprietary solid state drive system so users can't upgrade their SSD after purchase.  He forces users to max out their memory by making it non-upgradeable.  I don't buy the argument that what's OK for iPads and iPhones is OK for a pro-level $2500+ laptop.  The iPad is a compact device with a much lower price tag.  It has a different purpose.  An elite laptop is a full computer.  It is built with a different philosophy and for a different purpose.  If I choose to spend my money on an elite laptop, I expect the freedom to fix and upgrade my machine.  I don't expect a souped up iPad with a keyboard and a nice screen.

post #96 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. You shouldn't take everything that you read so seriously.


you shouldn't make such broad, ignorant, bigoted statements so lightly.

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post #97 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

A bunch of really sick people live in San Francisco. Isn't that the same city that banned happy meals a while ago? Those people are batshit insane. And they've also considered banning pets? Is that an actual American city or is it some little communist town run by radical, authoritarian, dictator wannabes? It's like a prison for freaks.

 

As for San Fran banning Macs from being bought by city agencies, who cares? As the article said, Macs only make up a percent or two of their complete usage, so let 'em ban what they want. Apple doesn't need San Fran, and neither do I.


Fine, then don't come here.  I happen to love it more than just about anywhere, and I've been in 48 states and several countries.

 

But the take-away from this story shouldn't be "wacko San Francisco strikes again"; it should be the very real concern that a lot of buyers -- government agencies, and private sector -- either are required to limit their purchases to items that meet certain criteria, or have to jump through some kind of hoop to buy a product that doesn't meet those criteria (for example, filling out extra paperwork, doing a cost/benefit analysis, getting higher-level approval, etc.)

 

If a buyer is told that they'll have to explain the purchase of a product that's not on some approved list, whereas they don't have to explain a purchase if it is on the list ... well guess what they're going to buy!

post #98 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

Funny how posters here assume that Apple shot itself in the foot. Do you think Apple did this in a daze without considering the ramifications? Do you think Apple doesn't have something in the works to address this? Do you think Tim Cook is stupid? The rumor is that Apple will propose new EPEAT standards that update the reality of environmentally safe manufacturing. 

 

Do I think Tim Cook is stupid?  No.

 

Do I think San Francisco is stupid?  Definitely

 

Do I think most of the people posting here are stupid?  Most definitely.

post #99 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

The USA only attacked Canada once (we were the very first attack by the very first US Armed forces), but they lost.  Quite badly too.   

 

If Canada wasn't so damn polite and gave all the territory they won off the USA back, everything North of the Mississippi would be Canada right now.  

 

Welll... except it wasn't really "Canada" then, at least not as we know it, it was a British colony (not even yet a dominion).  And that land "North of the Mississippi" (I presume you mean north of the Ohio; except for the Mesabi Range there's little land "north" of the Mississippi) was actually allotted to the United States in the treaty that ended the War of Independence, when *Britain* lost... quite badly, too.

post #100 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by catchblue22 View Post

Tim Cook is a bean counter MBA type.  The company is making money hand over fist, but what does he do?  He glues in the batteries on a $2500+ laptop to save a bit on machining.  He institutes a proprietary solid state drive system so users can't upgrade their SSD after purchase.  He forces users to max out their memory by making it non-upgradeable.  I don't buy the argument that what's OK for iPads and iPhones is OK for a pro-level $2500+ laptop.  The iPad is a compact device with a much lower price tag.  It has a different purpose.  An elite laptop is a full computer.  It is built with a different philosophy and for a different purpose.  If I choose to spend my money on an elite laptop, I expect the freedom to fix and upgrade my machine.  I don't expect a souped up iPad with a keyboard and a nice screen.

Time Cook didn't design the MacBook Air nor was he in charge of Apple when it was created. On top of that, Cook wasn't even in charge with the RMBP project was started.

PS: You forgot to add "Steve would never have let this happen!"

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post #101 of 192

No one is stupid: Tim Cook or anyone posting here. Some of us may be driven by passion for Apple products. But one thing is certain, as I posted last week on this news, the visionary of Apple is gone. Being able to see beyond the immediate horizon is a rare thing (visionaries don't tend to work for others because others may not help them realize their vision). Tom Cook and Jon Ive, all are smartness and brilliant but they probably didn't know why Steve Jobs made Apple so green, put Al Gore on the board, why did he want to manage perceptions in a particular way? Perhaps, he believed in it deeply, and thought such certifications are important for the evaluating green-ness of a company. Or, perhaps, it was a great marketing move...We won't know. What we do know that Apple executives haven't thought through the repercussions of this too well. It's not like withdrawing from MacWorld Expo. But the company will continue to be the leader for the next 10 years, after that it'll be just another corporation, like HP, Dell, and ahem, Microsoft.

post #102 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Time Cook didn't design the MacBook Air nor was he in charge of Apple when it was created. On top of that, Cook wasn't even in charge with the RMBP project was started.
PS: You forgot to add "Steve would never have let this happen!"

Macbook Air's design was not the same as the new MBP retina display. It used glass and a different glue.

post #103 of 192

The new MacBook Pro is just as recyclable. It is not magically now non-recyclable simply because a few components are glued together. However, it does not fit the arbitrary definitions specified by EPEAT. That's at issue here.

 

Hang in there for EPEAT 2.0.

post #104 of 192

So in other words they are going to continue to buy PC products made of toxic materials.

post #105 of 192

"Time Cook didn't design the MacBook Air nor was he in charge of Apple when it was created. On top of that, Cook wasn't even in charge with the RMBP project was started."

 

 

 

Macbook Pro != Macbook Air

 

And I suspect Tim Cook had de-facto control for a while when Jobs was ill.  Also, though he might not have been in charge in the beginning of the RMBP development, he was certainly in charge towards the end.  Obviously he didn't design the machine, but he was would have been responsible for creating an environment where manufacturing cost played a larger role than it otherwise might have. Also it is typical of the MBA way of thinking to try to squeeze every last bit of revenue out of a product, say by forcing users to buy all the SSD storage they need at the store rather than upgrading later.  I have personally upgraded my hard drive three times on my 2007 MBP.  It is an old machine but it serves my needs.  I paid a premium for this machine, but I expect to get something for the price I paid.  

post #106 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX View Post


Are you a recycling specialist? Apparently no, because glue does make recycling much more difficult.

You've been here since 08- shouldn't you know by now that Jragosta is a specialist in every subject?  You don't have to take my word for it- he'll gladly let you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

So unfortunately for you, I'll be around for quite a while

Lucky us....

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post #107 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by danv2 View Post

I work for the Federal Government, and as a rule the organization I work for (which will remain anonymous) can only buy 5% of its purchases as non-EPEAT compliant. Therefore, Apple has painted themselves into corner on government sales at the US Federal level. If either EPEAT or Apple cannot budge you will see a large backlash of data on this issue. I'm not saying either should change, but the plain fact is that Macs and other Apple mobile devices won't be looked to as a purchasable item for government and educational use.

 

This is perhaps the largest mistake Apple could have made, politically speaking, with regards to government and education.

The trend in business with respect to Macs and iPhones is BYOD. Still most computers in business are Windows so Apple is not really affected by the EPEAT restriction to any great degree. I am not sure if BYOD is commonplace in Government or not but it may become more prevalent in that environment as well. I think we will see the education / iPad situation follow a similar BYOD track as the students might soon need to take the iPad home each day so the parents will end up being the actual purchaser (at a discount) and the school districts will be off the hook with regard to the EPEAT restrictions. 

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post #108 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Jeepers dude, please die soon.  
Your old-age rants about "kids today" (or whatever is on your mind), are really getting crazier and crazier.  

The other day it was "all Koreans" now it's "all San Franciscans"??? WTF?  

Can't you exist without making broad, offensive generalisations about every group of folks that isn't old, white, and conservative?  

To use a metaphor from what I assume is your generation ... lately you come across like Mr. Wilson from "Denis the Menace," (North American version not UK).  

Earlier he mentioned 'going to work' I really thought he was about 15 living with parents by the immaturity level of his ramblings! Now I assume they are just done to attract attention so ignore list is the best solution. If only it also blocked replies with the utter nonsense in too! /sigh
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post #109 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

 I think we will see the education / iPad situation follow a similar BYOD track as the students might soon need to take the iPad home each day so the parents will end up being the actual purchaser (at a discount) and the school districts will be off the hook with regard to the EPEAT restrictions. 

 

Considering things like school lunch assistance is at an all time high nationwide, it will be a long time coming before parents are required to buy iPads for kids. 

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post #110 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


Earlier he mentioned 'going to work' I really thought he was about 15 living with parents by the immaturity level of his ramblings! Now I assume they are just done to attract attention so ignore list is the best solution. If only it also blocked replies with the utter nonsense in too! /sigh

 

I just assumed that was his fake way of looking older.

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post #111 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by MildlyGreen View Post

Macbook Air's design was not the same as the new MBP retina display. It used glass and a different glue.

So your problem is that you aren't aware the MBA contains glass (as if glass is now a bad thing) and that it uses a different glue. Explain to me the differences in the glue that you are so against?

Quote:
Originally Posted by catchblue22 View Post

Macbook Pro != Macbook Air

And I suspect Tim Cook had de-facto control for a while when Jobs was ill.  Also, though he might not have been in charge in the beginning of the RMBP development, he was certainly in charge towards the end.  Obviously he didn't design the machine, but he was would have been responsible for creating an environment where manufacturing cost played a larger role than it otherwise might have. Also it is typical of the MBA way of thinking to try to squeeze every last bit of revenue out of a product, say by forcing users to buy all the SSD storage they need at the store rather than upgrading later.  I have personally upgraded my hard drive three times on my 2007 MBP.  It is an old machine but it serves my needs.  I paid a premium for this machine, but I expect to get something for the price I paid.  

So your against the new MBPs, which are still being sold next to updated MBPs of the older design, because Tim Cook has a Master of Business Administration degree? Seriously?!

PS: Before you grab your pitchforks and torches try to understand that this SF ruling is because Apple had their products removed from EPEAT, not because their products have miraculously stopped passing the EPEAT rating system. That 2007 MBP still has the same EPEAT rating it had before even though it's no longer listed.

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post #112 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Right?! So nothing has changed with Apple's products and yet now it' a big deal. To me that proves just how pointless EPEAT is when people blindly follow something without understanding it.

Good point. So if you're interested in the environment, why were those older laptops OK last week, but not OK now that Apple has decided to stop paying the fee?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Apple made the decision themselves to remove their own products from the approved list. They weren't thrown off. I'm very certain you don't think Apple management are the "idiots (who) make decisions for us".

Yet if your interest is in the environment, why were those laptops OK last week but they're suddenly anathema?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

The glue isn't the problem, it's the battery. Not being able to easily remove it is a cause for concern for recycling purposes.

I wish you folks would make up your mind. Is the problem the glue or the 5 lobed screws or the battery? And why is the battery any less recyclable than any other battery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellya74u View Post

What if the glue was water soluble…spill a drink on your laptop & the battery falls out!

If you get enough water into your laptop to dissolve the glue, you have bigger problems than a loose battery.
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post #113 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


It's really sad how we let idiots make decisions for us. Glue does not make the laptop any less recyclable - and Apple leads the industry (by far) in recyclability of its computers.

 

The really sad thing here is that this EPEAT agency is running the show. They are giving the "green initiative" a bad name by slowing down the process and forcing manufacturing based on an arbitrary standard of "recyclable." The "glue construction" process does make upgrades harder -- but a quick bath in a solution should allow everything to be extracted and that's quicker than a hundred screws isn't it?

 

I've read a lot of comments about "those damn environmentalists" as if there were one monolithic hippy controlling things -- the environment is EVERYONE's concern -- we don't want mercury poisoning our food supply or mutated children or poisoned air do we?

 

It isn't an either/or position -- something will need to be resolved so that Apple isn't "automatically" kicked out of the process because they don't fit the mold.

post #114 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

The USA only attacked Canada once (we were the very first attack by the very first US Armed forces), but they lost.  Quite badly too.   

 

If Canada wasn't so damn polite and gave all the territory they won off the USA back, everything North of the Mississippi would be Canada right now.  

Here is an interesting read. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Montgomery_(Lake_Champlain)

 

and

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plattsburgh

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post #115 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner View Post

...a quick bath in a solution should allow...

That's the problem. Hippies hate baths. 😷

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post #116 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

So your against the new MBPs, which are still being sold next to updated MBPs of the older design, because Tim Cook has a Master of Business Administration degree? Seriously?!
PS: Before you grab your pitchforks and torches try to understand that this SF ruling is because Apple had their products removed from EPEAT, not because their products have miraculously stopped passing the EPEAT rating system. That 2007 MBP still has the same EPEAT rating it had before even though it's no longer listed.

 

Whoa, logically challenged much?  Let me restate my argument.  I have problems with the RMBP because its design moves in a direction that I don't like.  Its design philosophy shows symptoms artificial limitation of capabilities, especially in regards to updatability of the SSD and replacement of expired batteries.  I don't care if Apple deigns to provide a battery replacement service for a fee; if they are the only practical alternative for battery replacement, that means they can cease this service at their whim.  Apple currently does not sell battery replacements for my 2007 MBP, but I was able to use another supplier recently.  I don't want Apple to be able to place artificial limitations on the lifetime of my premium professional laptop that I paid a premium price for.  Such behavior is typical of the MBA management style, something that usually causes us consumers to pay more for less. Oh, and the leader of Apple happens to be an MBA.

post #117 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


In other news, Apple to move all business to Indiana

Or to China

post #118 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by boeyc15 View Post

Didnt those tear down sites(ifixit etc) try that?
Im sure its possible to tear down these macs, but these EPEAT rules are written for the average dumpster diver/charity org etc and not for the more sophisticated disassembler.

If they did, I haven't noticed it. This is my point of reference: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Retina-Display-Mid-2012-Teardown/9462/3

Covered in step 21, near the bottom. I didn't see any mention of heat. Maybe they mentioned it in some other story, but I didn't notice it. Ironically, the only mention of a heat gun I saw in that set of instructions is the listing of a heat gun in the popular products list.

Maybe it's not something I would ask a Goodwill employee to do, but I really don't think it's that difficult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by majortom1981 View Post

You cant just heat up the glue to unstick it since there is  now a battery in the way.

You're right, that's dangerous, but I don't think you saw my comment. I think you could heat from behind the metal, not the battery side of the bond.
post #119 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by NormM View Post

 

 but manufacturing has evolved since then and the criterion of easy disassembly by end users no longer makes sense. 

 

\

 

Why does that criteria no longer make sense?

post #120 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

That's the problem. Hippies hate baths.

Except when they could get naked together. They did a lot of that.

The hot tub was invented just north of San Francisco, by the way.
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