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Microsoft says Surface tablet is 'just a design point' - Page 2

post #41 of 85

I can't help but wonder how many lives this MS fat-cat (Ballmer) has and has used. They definitely need new leadership with a clear vision and an openness to discussing breaking MS's various parts into separate businesses.

post #42 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by not candunc View Post

Well, I want a full fleged tablet. The Microsoft surface appeals to me because I am looking for a touchscreen laptop lacking a keyboard. I do love the iPad, but it isn't for me, even though I am a diehard apple fan.

 

The Surface Pro isn't a tablet, it's a MacBook Air 11" class competitor.  It's just disingenuously named like the actual tablet, but it's a totally different machine with a different and incompatible OS and the same intel CPU line as is in the MBA.  With every other windows laptop having inferior battery performance for like CPU products, I wouldn't expect anything different from a company building it's first laptop computer.

 

Since Surface Pro won't run the tablet OS (Windows RT), but runs the desktop Windows 8, how effective do you think it is going to be without the keyboard+trackpad?  So I don't think it will ever make sense to simply think of it as a tablet.  It's a laptop.


Edited by Hiro - 7/10/12 at 11:21pm
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post #43 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Are windows users colorblind? How can anybody not find that extremely distracting, eye-popping color on that keyboard to be really annoying? I wouldn't be surprised if it triggered seizures in certain people. The idiotic and poorly chosen color makes the keyboard more prominent than the actual display and tablet.

Actually, I think you are colorblind because you couldn't see that you can CHOOSE black, white, cyan, magenta, or red.

 

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2012/06/microsofttablet0104.jpg

post #44 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by frsven View Post

Didn't Monkey Boy just say that he expects to sell millions of the Surface tablet?  Life in Microserfville must be getting confusing.

No, if it's 5 millions for one YEAR, then it's pretty poor performing considering that Apple can get many times that in one QUARTER.

post #45 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC View Post

Yes, Viginia you can only use the Surface on landscape mode.
That kind of limit the usefulness of the Surface.
Besides an iPad is more versatile with a Bluetooth keyboard than one with a magnetic keyboard.
Designed with limitations, kind of sad for a company which refuse to move beyond the laptop mode.

What prevents you from using a bluetooth keyboard with Windows 8?

 

iPad = bluetooth keyboard or onscreen

Windows 8 tablet = bluetooth, onscreen, USB, touch cover, type cover, where the three latter options use the tablet's built-in power

 

What kind of logic do you use?

post #46 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by richsadams View Post


MS pretty much confirmed that when they introduced their vaporware product saying it would be priced comparable to Ultrabook PCs (43:40 mark):
http://youtu.be/jozTK-MqEXQ (Although the best part starts at 13:30)
Report: Microsoft's Intel-powered Surface to Cost $1000
However the price should drop once they start being offered by Woot!

The Windows RT tablet price is comparable to the iPad.

The Windows 8 tablet price is comparable to ultrabook.

 

Quote from the same source:

 

"Today brings us rumors of something more specific than that. Just yesterday word on the street was that the ARM-based Surface would cost $600 and the Wintel model $799 at the very least. The Next Web is now reporting that while the Windows RT Surface will cost $599, the Intel version of the tabletis going to cost closer to $1000. TNW cites a source close to Microsoft in reporting that the Tegra 3 powered RT model will retail for $599 and the Ivy Bridge Windows 8 Pro model will sell for $999."

post #47 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Are windows users colorblind? How can anybody not find that extremely distracting, eye-popping color on that keyboard to be really annoying? I wouldn't be surprised if it triggered seizures in certain people. The idiotic and poorly chosen color makes the keyboard more prominent than the actual display and tablet.

 

Colorblind? That's statistically unlikely since there are more of them than other operating systems, so they just must lack taste.*

 

So in the vein of "Would you rather...?" - Zune Brown or Surface Cyan? ;)

 

 

 

* Not all, just the ones who will pop up here to emphatically say that these heinous colors are really OK. And Ballmer. But he's a given at this point. 

post #48 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

 

The Surface Pro isn't a tablet, it's a MacBook Air 11" class competitor.  It's just disingenuously named like the actual tablet, but it's a totally different machine with a different and incompatible OS and the same intel CPU line as is in the MBA.  With every other windows laptop having inferior battery performance for like CPU products, I wouldn't expect anything different from a company building it's first laptop computer.

 

Since Surface Pro won't run the tablet OS (Windows RT), but runs the desktop Windows 8, how effective do you think it is going to be without the keyboard+trackpad?  So I don't think it will ever make sense to simply think of it as a tablet.  It's a laptop.

So how is it possible that a lot of the Windows 7 notebook and my notebook can get 7+ hours of battery life? Surface Pro runs the SAME metro apps from the Windows Store as the Surface (RT). The fact that it run also run legacy programs is a bonus. But I would rather trade off on legacy support for longer battery life, lighter, thinner, and probably better security by going with Surface RT.

post #49 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodlink View Post

The Higgs boson will prove more tangible than a Surface.

Yep, Surface, AKA Courier ....
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post #50 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

Ballmer is already backtracking.... just the beginning of things to come.  

They probably can't get it to work as hoped ....
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post #51 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

MS would love if you started calling it the God Tablet?

You mean the 'Goddamn Tablet' ... To be accurate ...
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post #52 of 85

Ballmer just keeps cementing his reputation as a double-tongued huckster.

 

ballmersurface.jpg?w=593


Edited by markbyrn - 7/11/12 at 3:53am
post #53 of 85

I feel like I am at Disney World.  It is a Figment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  not a Surface

post #54 of 85

If he were to eat some Beano he would simply disappear.

post #55 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Are windows users colorblind? How can anybody not find that extremely distracting, eye-popping color on that keyboard to be really annoying? I wouldn't be surprised if it triggered seizures in certain people. The idiotic and poorly chosen color makes the keyboard more prominent than the actual display and tablet.

 

As someone who is epileptic, I can say that just being a solid color like that doesn't trigger seizures in anyone I have ever heard of.  Bright color flashing on and off, potentially.  I'm not a fan of the color scheme at all tho.  I do find this new article amusing tho as MS seems to quickly be drawing back from being seen as a competitor of all their OEMs after the backlash they received.  If it was really a reference design, they would have said so upfront.  They could be at a cost advantage over the OEMs (since they don't pay for the OS) and the OEMs are rightfully not happy about it

post #56 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinN206 View Post

What prevents you from using a bluetooth keyboard with Windows 8?

 

iPad = bluetooth keyboard or onscreen

Windows 8 tablet = bluetooth, onscreen, USB, touch cover, type cover, where the three latter options use the tablet's built-in power

 

What kind of logic do you use?

 

The kind of logic that says iPad is good in either orientation, landscape or portrait. In fact its portrait mode is very conducive to document creation, such as using Pages for iOS. This is enhanced due to Apple's choice of 4:3 ratio, like a page (book/document). If using onscreen keyboard, you have enough width and depth in portrait orientation for good experience. If using bluetooth keyboard, you can choose your screen angle and see a full page.

 

Surface, as every other tablet on the market besides iPad, has chosen a skinnier, wide-screen ratio. Kind of rich for MS et al to then talk about iPad as "media tablet" for consumption and not creation. The iPad is the only one useful for anything beyond landscape media consumption. Very little depth for onscreen keyboard in landscape mode, and very little width for it in portrait mode. Furthermore, I have seen no photo anywhere of Surface used with its hardware keyboard while the screen is in portrait orientation; what happens if you want to use it in portrait orientation? We don't know... can the keyboard be used a few inches away, must it be attached in landscape mode to use? The journalists didn't actually get "hands-on" with it... not with it switched on anyway.

 

All the things you mention for Windows 8 tablet are available for iPad -- there are any number of cases that include keyboard. Any number of ways to position and hold it (rotating handgrips and clamps for every use and industry, etc.). There is a massive third-party market for iPad already. And, yes, you can attach things via USB or card slot, cameras, certainly, plus other hardware (credit card readers, bar code scanners, medical instruments for diabetes, etc.) Besides, there are tons of ways to transfer files wirelessly, lots of internal storage space, and good cloud apps like Dropbox.

 

The kind of logic that says that, once again, MS is trying to be all things to all people, and failing to make a commitment to get one thing right. This is betrayed with their tortured use of the phrase "no compromise": everything about this "product" (remains to be seen now, doesn't it), epitomizes Compromise. You get a compromised desktop experience and a compromised tablet experience. Will either one be satisfactory enough to make this a compelling product (if it ever ships)? Highly doubtful.

 

What prevents you from using a bluetooth keyboard with it? Classic! The kind of logic that says, why should I have to buy something else to enhance my experience, when MS has already compromised my experience by setting up the device to act like a laptop with fixed orientation and angle and keyboard position. They have made such a big deal about this "innovation", and now you want to tell me I can get round it by having a bluetooth keyboard AS WELL. Lovely. Like the company who couldn't get WIFI to work with their tablet, so added a dongle as a FEATURE! Hey, guys, look at our innovations in this space... well, I guess you could use it like an iPad if you bought this, or did this or this; no, it's not as good, but hey, it's more fun and you can choose from more colors! Classic -- no substance whatsoever and completely compromised experience.


Edited by krabbelen - 7/11/12 at 4:53am
post #57 of 85

Steve Ballmer speaking to Microsoft's partners about Surface.SteveBallmerIdea.jpg
 

post #58 of 85

This squares with Balmer's recent statement that the Surface is only going to be available for sale at the few Microsoft stores and their online store only...

 

This is serious backpedaling from where they were at the announcement with their prototype hardware that nobody could test.  Makes one wonder if they are realizing they'll be late or miss the shopping season.

post #59 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post

Today I updated my Vista OS to Service Pack 3 so I could install IE 9. A company I work for needed me to use their site that requires Internet Explorer 8 or newer. After going through all of that with multiple restarts IE 9 seemed OK until it crashed and wouldn't open again no matter what I did. So I did a system restore and reverted to pre SP3 without IE 9. I HATE MICROSOFT SO MUCH!

Sounds similar to the experience I had which led me to switch to Mac OS. No matter how many facelifts it gets, Windows remains a polished turd.
Quote:
I wish I could throw a truck load of crap on their building but the crap would be more valuable than their whole campus.

They would simply package it up and sell it.
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post #60 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinN206 View Post

Actually, I think you are colorblind because you couldn't see that you can CHOOSE black, white, cyan, magenta, or red.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2012/06/microsofttablet0104.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinN206 View Post

No, if it's 5 millions for one YEAR, then it's pretty poor performing considering that Apple can get many times that in one QUARTER.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinN206 View Post

What prevents you from using a bluetooth keyboard with Windows 8?

iPad = bluetooth keyboard or onscreen
Windows 8 tablet = bluetooth, onscreen, USB, touch cover, type cover, where the three latter options use the tablet's built-in power

What kind of logic do you use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinN206 View Post

The Windows RT tablet price is comparable to the iPad.
The Windows 8 tablet price is comparable to ultrabook.

Quote from the same source:

"Today brings us rumors of something more specific than that. Just yesterday word on the street was that the ARM-based Surface would cost $600 and the Wintel model $799 at the very least. The Next Web is now reporting that while the
Windows RT Surface will cost $599
, the
Intel version of 
the 
tablet

is going to cost closer to $1000
. TNW cites a source close to Microsoft in reporting that the Tegra 3 powered RT model will retail for $599 and the Ivy Bridge Windows 8 Pro model will sell for $999."

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinN206 View Post

So how is it possible that a lot of the Windows 7 notebook and my notebook can get 7+ hours of battery life? Surface Pro runs the SAME metro apps from the Windows Store as the Surface (RT). The fact that it run also run legacy programs is a bonus. But I would rather trade off on legacy support for longer battery life, lighter, thinner, and probably better security by going with Surface RT.


Oh God, now we have a Microsoft Apologist in the thread. Great.
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post #61 of 85

Steve Ballmer is excellent ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

... at saying things that don't really mean anything.

post #62 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinN206 View Post

The Windows RT tablet price is comparable to the iPad.

The Windows 8 tablet price is comparable to ultrabook.

 

Quote from the same source:

 

"Today brings us rumors of something more specific than that. Just yesterday word on the street was that the ARM-based Surface would cost $600 and the Wintel model $799 at the very least. The Next Web is now reporting that while the Windows RT Surface will cost $599, the Intel version of the tabletis going to cost closer to $1000. TNW cites a source close to Microsoft in reporting that the Tegra 3 powered RT model will retail for $599 and the Ivy Bridge Windows 8 Pro model will sell for $999."

 

 

"The Windows RT tablet price is comparable to the iPad.

The Windows 8 tablet price is comparable to ultra book."

 

Well, at the risk of being pedantic, since the "Surface" is still vaporware the tense s/b "will be" or "may be", or "we're really, really hoping that it could be"...but not "is".  What the other Steve actually said at the MS presentation was "...priced like comparable tablets that are based on ARM..." and "...comparable with competitive ultra book class PC's".   Just sayin'.   

 

In any case SB now says that the Surface is just a "design point".

 

This old quote from Macworld's Macalope couldn't be more apropos today IMHO...

 

"It’s amazing how future Microsoft products beat current Apple products time and time again, isn’t it?"


Edited by richsadams - 7/11/12 at 10:25am
post #63 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post

All the things you mention for Windows 8 tablet are available for iPad <snip>

 

Plus 525,000 apps!  :)

post #64 of 85

In the waffling on competing with Microsoft's own partners, Ballmer sounds like Romney, trying to explain his stance on immigration to suit the audience being addressed.

post #65 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Ballmer attempted to ease worries and said Microsoft has "a mutual goal with [its] OEM partners to bring a diversity of solutions, Windows PCs, phones, tablets, servers to market." He went on to clarify that Surface was created for hardware makers to reference as a kind of halo device.

 

Apple = laser.  Sharply focused, pointed directly at the future, burns a hole through whatever tries to block its path.

 

Microsoft = pinball.  No clear direction, struggling against gravity, totally at the mercy of its hardware OEMs.

 

(And, by the way, a "halo device" needs to be wildly popular before it can be called such.  Otherwise it's a "me-too device."  Like the Lumia 900.)

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post #66 of 85
Quote:
'Surface is just a design point,' Ballmer said.  It will have a distinct place in what's a broad Windows ecosystem. And the importance of the thousands of partners that we have that design and produce Windows computers will not diminish.

 

Translation:  "We don't have all our ducks in line, yet -- and need more time to sandbag our partners"... we mean for the MS Surface concept to "play for sure".

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post #67 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

I don't think OEMs are buying this line.
MS is doing damage-ccntrol here. But really, there's no place OEMs can go *but* to MS.
By choosing to run someone's whored-out, shitastic OS years ago, OEMs have painted themselves into a corner, and so has MS . . . just a little differently.

 

Don't beat around the bush -- say what you really think! /s

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post #68 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsonice View Post

Here we go again. Another huge cloud of smelly gas from Ballmer. Maybe he should take some laxative and clean out the crap..

 

Mmm... I heard that MS is concerned with the marketability of the Surface and already has a follow-on in the wings...   It's called the MS Sphincter.

 

Sing along with me, now:

 

"If the Surface won't Suffice, then the Sphincter is nice"...

 

And that is our Ace down in the Hole!

 

Edt:  Here's the whole song (with apologies to Bobby Short):

 

Quote:

Now this hall is full of guys

Who think they're mighty wise
Just because they know a thing or two

You can see them everyday
Strolling up and down the stage
Telling of the wonders they can do

Well, there's conmen and there's boosters
Card sharks and crap shooters
They congregate around the Metropole

They wear fancy shirts and collars
But where they get their dollars
Well they all got an ace down in the hole

 
They tell you to write to the old folks for coin
To purchase your tablet of choice
If the Surface won't suffice, then the Sphincter is nice,
Well, that's their old ace in the hole
 
They'll tell you of all the gear
That they are going to make
With prices high as the old North Pole
 
They compete with their friends
For monetary ends
Then say it was all hyperbole

Now their names will be mud
Like a old chump playing stud
When they lose that old ace in the hole

Edited by Dick Applebaum - 7/11/12 at 1:32pm
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post #69 of 85
You mean, Dick, that it's "FARTWARE." just hot air, and it stinks.
post #70 of 85

Ready for the Big question?

 

Which will be the biggest MS Failure -- Surface or Windows 8?

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post #71 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Which will be the biggest MS Failure -- Surface or Windows 8?

Surface will come into existence, cost too much, not be purchased, not interact well, and be quietly discontinued before Q2 2013. Like Kin and Zune before it.

Windows 8 will push millions of people to Mountain Lion.

I say the latter.

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post #72 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Surface will come into existence, cost too much, not be purchased, not interact well, and be quietly discontinued before Q2 2013. Like Kin and Zune before it.
Windows 8 will push millions of people to Mountain Lion.
I say the latter.

 

I agree!  I think it will be interesting, a year from now, to see the distribution of Windows users on XP, W7 and W8.

 

Said the Queen of Hearts:  "sinOFFsky with his head!">

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post #73 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Ready for the Big question?

Which will be the biggest MS Failure -- Surface or Windows 8?

Windows 8 hands down. That said, it'll be the fastest selling version of Windows ever, but I still it's too confusing for the average user.

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post #74 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"Surface is just a design point"

 

 

Surace Color Palette plus multiple design points = Ballmer.

 

 madagascar_3_circus_afro.jpg

post #75 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhromeror View Post

Surace Color Palette plus multiple design points = Ballmer.

 LL

DAT DAT DADDLE ADDLE AT DAT SURFACE!
DAT DAT DADDLE ADDLE AT DAT COLORS!
SURFACE COLORS, SURFACE COLORS!
PALETTE, PALETTE, PALETTE, COLORS!
DAT DAT DADDLE ADDLE AT DAT SURFACE!
DAT DAT DADDLE ADDLE AT DAT COLORS!
SURFACE COLORS, SURFACE COLORS!
PALETTE, PALETTE, PALETTE, COLORS!
DAT DAT DADDLE ADDLE AT DAT SURFACE!
DAT DAT DADDLE ADDLE AT DAT COLORS!
SURFACE COLORS, SURFACE COLORS!
PALETTE, PALETTE, PALETTE, COLORS!

We've all seen the ads, so I'm sure I don't need to continue.

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post #76 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

How long until H-P reverses course again and announces they will make a Windows 8 tablet after all?

 

Huh?

 

HP are making a Windows 8 tablet.


Or are you meaning Windows RT?

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post #77 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Ready for the Big question?

 

Which will be the biggest MS Failure -- Surface or Windows 8?

 

There will be more windows 8 users than Mac OS users within a month.  Whether that makes it a failure, or not, I dont know.

 

Surface will be a failure because they have limited themselves in temrs of sales opporutunities.

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post #78 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post

 

The kind of logic that says iPad is good in either orientation, landscape or portrait. In fact its portrait mode is very conducive to document creation, such as using Pages for iOS. This is enhanced due to Apple's choice of 4:3 ratio, like a page (book/document). If using onscreen keyboard, you have enough width and depth in portrait orientation for good experience. If using bluetooth keyboard, you can choose your screen angle and see a full page.

 

Surface, as every other tablet on the market besides iPad, has chosen a skinnier, wide-screen ratio. Kind of rich for MS et al to then talk about iPad as "media tablet" for consumption and not creation. The iPad is the only one useful for anything beyond landscape media consumption. Very little depth for onscreen keyboard in landscape mode, and very little width for it in portrait mode. Furthermore, I have seen no photo anywhere of Surface used with its hardware keyboard while the screen is in portrait orientation; what happens if you want to use it in portrait orientation? We don't know... can the keyboard be used a few inches away, must it be attached in landscape mode to use? The journalists didn't actually get "hands-on" with it... not with it switched on anyway.

 

All the things you mention for Windows 8 tablet are available for iPad -- there are any number of cases that include keyboard. Any number of ways to position and hold it (rotating handgrips and clamps for every use and industry, etc.). There is a massive third-party market for iPad already. And, yes, you can attach things via USB or card slot, cameras, certainly, plus other hardware (credit card readers, bar code scanners, medical instruments for diabetes, etc.) Besides, there are tons of ways to transfer files wirelessly, lots of internal storage space, and good cloud apps like Dropbox.

 

The kind of logic that says that, once again, MS is trying to be all things to all people, and failing to make a commitment to get one thing right. This is betrayed with their tortured use of the phrase "no compromise": everything about this "product" (remains to be seen now, doesn't it), epitomizes Compromise. You get a compromised desktop experience and a compromised tablet experience. Will either one be satisfactory enough to make this a compelling product (if it ever ships)? Highly doubtful.

 

What prevents you from using a bluetooth keyboard with it? Classic! The kind of logic that says, why should I have to buy something else to enhance my experience, when MS has already compromised my experience by setting up the device to act like a laptop with fixed orientation and angle and keyboard position. They have made such a big deal about this "innovation", and now you want to tell me I can get round it by having a bluetooth keyboard AS WELL. Lovely. Like the company who couldn't get WIFI to work with their tablet, so added a dongle as a FEATURE! Hey, guys, look at our innovations in this space... well, I guess you could use it like an iPad if you bought this, or did this or this; no, it's not as good, but hey, it's more fun and you can choose from more colors! Classic -- no substance whatsoever and completely compromised experience.

My point is that the Surface can do all of what you described without using a SINGLE third-party case or using an adapter. The iPad cannot do that. I do everything in landscape mode whether it's android tablet or an iPad. Portrait mode, whether it's 4:3, 16:10, 16:9, feels weird on a tablet. That's my personal opinion.

 

Everything that you described are OPTIONAL. How the hell can you compromise the usage of the Surface if the kickstand is optional? If you think it's limiting, then don't use it and buy a case EXACTLY like an iPad. No one is forcing you to use the kickstand. No one is forcing you to use the touch cover. In fact, you can use the exact SAME tools as you use for the iPad. However, the options are there, built-in. You can use whatever works best for you.

 

By your logic, since the iPad doesn't offer any of these OPTIONAL features, then it's already a compromised experience? What? I need case? What? I need a bulky case with keyboard and bluetooth? The Surface solves both issues for you with built-in capability. Don't like? Buy a third-party solution.

 

Holly smoke. How does having the option of different colors a compromised experience? I don't like black, so I'll choose Cyan or white. Perfect for me. And I am sure not everyone likes black either, which is why Apple makes a white and black iPad and iPhone.


Edited by KevinN206 - 7/11/12 at 10:11pm
post #79 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightlie View Post


Oh God, now we have a Microsoft Apologist in the thread. Great.

I like Apple. I like Apple products. I have nothing against Apple. I have everything against those who says false information, or quote something out of context.

post #80 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinN206 View Post

My point is that the Surface can do all of what you described without using a SINGLE third-party case or using an adapter. The iPad cannot do that. I do everything in landscape mode whether it's android tablet or an iPad. Portrait mode, whether it's 4:3, 16:10, 16:9, feels weird on a tablet. That's my personal opinion.

 

You add your options to the iPad yourself because the iPad is a tablet, not a MacBook Air.

 

1) MS is hedging its bets because it believes in "Windows everywhere"...

Sadly, this signals a compromise is taking place. MS has little experience with ARM. By bundling Windows on the "Pro" version of Surface, which can't even run on ARM, MS is again acknowledging they couldn't pull off an adequate tablet and tablet OS (as they have not for 20 years), and this is their compromise. Apple's iOS is more robust than Metro; iOS actually is "OS X for ARM"; and it is more similar to OS X than Metro is to Windows. What are the Metro APIs like? By all accounts, it is a jarring experience to use Metro and be forced into desktop mode when something requires it (on the Pro version only of course). But will any serious software be available on Metro? Can MS make a touch version of Office as Apple has done for iWorks? We have yet to see. Sounds like a compromise to need the Pro on Intel just to produce some real content. By contrast, Apple makes a lot of custom silicon SoC and custom ARM chips around their ARM license. A lot of stuff is optimized for hardware acceleration to reduce processing and power requirements; will MS be able to do the same, or does the need for Intel signal a compromise?

 

2) I can choose my third-party option, if I need one, without discarding or working around the ill-conceived built-in option in the process. This isn't like discussing whether the MS car comes with air-conditioning while the Apple car comes with electric windows. This is like saying the MS car comes with a great big spoiler fin on the back, but you can't lock the doors unless you get the "Pro" car -- but hey, you can always slide through the windows like the Dukes of Hazzard, cool huh?

 

And I think you misunderstood about adaptors: the things I described attach directly to the iPad or iPhone very solidly because the manufacturers use the 30-pin port as conceived by Apple. It delivers USB, video, audio, power, etc. No adaptor required. That's an option: from one port, many. MS doesn't seem to have the clout or chops to design and advocate its own ports, even with Intel. Intel dictates to MS and its OEMs; while Apple gets Intel to push the boundaries for Apple's requirements (chip set/board sizes and configurations, power and threading management, ports like Thunderbolt, etc.). Intel works with Apple because they know Apple will execute and sell, not require hand-holding and bribing into reference designs as do the OEMs who are failing to follow through with viable products because MS is choking their margins and limiting their options with an archaic OS.

 

3) You certainly can have your opinion and preference about the orientation in which you use your tablet. With the iPad, it's a real OPTION, because the soft keyboard is effective either way! 4:3 makes that possible. The options are more limited with Surface, because the design makes the soft keyboard ineffective, and it is set up to function physically more as a laptop on a surface. BTW, tablets are not weird in portrait (see ebook readers and books for the last thousand years), laptops are weird in portrait! Tablets are versatile that way (unless it's an MS "tablet") -- flexible orientation that works is a real option, rather than a feature masquerading as an option but which in fact aims to make it a poor laptop instead.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinN206 View Post

Everything that you described are OPTIONAL. How the hell can you compromise the usage of the Surface if the kickstand is optional? If you think it's limiting, then don't use it and buy a case EXACTLY like an iPad. No one is forcing you to use the kickstand. No one is forcing you to use the touch cover. In fact, you can use the exact SAME tools as you use for the iPad. However, the options are there, built-in. You can use whatever works best for you.

 

From your comment it sounds like you can take the kickstand off? Or, does it just fold away for the "tablet experience"? Evenso, in laptop mode, kickstand is apparently limited to one angle. What's so funny is you go on about the kickstand being both "optional" and "built-in" at the same time: the option being, presumably, that I can work around it. A MacBook Air has optional viewing angle. An iPad has a variety of third party keyboard options available from all sorts of companies, cheap to expensive, depending on how you find you like to use it.

 

True, I am not forced to USE the kickstand... I am merely forced to accept it, and agree with MS that it is an "innovation" that somehow makes this the bee knees in tablets, when it is actually something MS had to include, because their "tablet" is a pretty poor tablet, as a tablet. Software-wise and conceptually. That is the compromise.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinN206 View Post

By your logic, since the iPad doesn't offer any of these OPTIONAL features, then it's already a compromised experience? What? I need case? What? I need a bulky case with keyboard and bluetooth? The Surface solves both issues for you with built-in capability. Don't like? Buy a third-party solution.

 

No, that is not the logical conclusion of my argument. You are arguing that someone with a very nice solid wood or glass dining table has a compromised dining experience just because they chose not to get a table that turns into a pool table or ping-pong table. On the contrary, I am saying that if they had chosen the all-in-one, they would have both a compromised dining experience and a compromised entertainment experience. The dining experience would not be as good or elegant as it ought to be, and the entertainment experience would be poorer than it ought to be (not to mention that you would be limited to playing in the dining room). That is what "compromised" means. Do you really not see that?

 

It is not "compromised" to "fail" to offer anything and everything! That is focus, and being "bold". Sure, you can put 50 different things in a Swiss Army knife... but pretty soon it is compromised as a pocket knife: it becomes unwieldy and ungainly.

 

Oh, you say, "but if you don't put all that stuff in, the Swiss Army knife is "compromised" as a nose picker!" Whoop de doo. Go get a dedicated nose picker and put it in your other pocket! The rest of us say, "I'll just use the finger God gave me, thank you very much. In fact, I will just use the fingers God gave me with the iPad, because iOS is so darn good!"

 

What? you mean you want a to carry something separate instead of enjoying the only-somewhat-bulky "tablet experience" of the Surface all the time due to its built-in stuff? Yes, I will make do without a nose-picker on my Swiss Army knife, and opt to take one with me on the rare occasions I feel the urge (because, you see, I already have a wireless keyboard for my Mac). Better the option than have the nose picker hanging out of my pocket knife everywhere I go, and bragging about the "feature". With the iPad, you bring a "bulky" case with you for the few times you feel you want more than the soft keyboard -- maybe when you are going away for a week to write your novel. Generally you leave the keyboard in your room, such as the journalist typing up the full story at the end of the day from notes quickly taken during the day (or from voice recordings). FYI there is no bulky case for bluetooth -- it's built in!

 

Getting to the heart of a product category, and making something that people appreciate is not compromising. The iPad may be called minimalistic and pared to the essence, but as a tablet it is not a compromised something else. It is not a compromised laptop, because it is a tablet. By your logic you might as well call it a "compromised skateboard": go ahead, say it doesn't work so well as a skateboard! (it has been tried, I've seen it on Youtube).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinN206 View Post

Holly smoke. How does having the option of different colors a compromised experience? I don't like black, so I'll choose Cyan or white. Perfect for me. And I am sure not everyone likes black either, which is why Apple makes a white and black iPad and iPhone.

 

I am glad you think the color choices offer real options. Like those who love to go on about Windows or Android options to customize their home screens, overlooking that their soft keyboards aren't great because the OS isn't as polished and robust as iOS. The options for the iPad tablet experience come in the hundreds of thousands of polished and innovative native apps available. I didn't say that having color choices per se was a compromise. But these "options" don't make up for the basic design and conceptual compromises already made, and they shouldn't be used to whitewash them in absence of real hands-on handling by reviewers. Oh, Ballmer realizes the original materials or coatings will have to be rethought because MS can't get them or make it happen? -- you gonna tell me there isn't a compromise there?

 

 

Again, the compromise of the Surface is that it is (there I go saying "is" -- sorry, will be, when and if it materializes) neither a satisfactory laptop nor a satisfactory tablet -- more of an adaptable netbook. It is trying to be all things to all people, as ever MS is, and that makes it not so hot. The irony is that Apple is denigrated for making "limited, one-size-fits-all" decisions when both the iPad and the MacBook Air are each wildly successful already, as two very different products with different jobs to be done; and there is not one viable competing product on the market from all the hundreds of Windows and Android OEMs -- either a tablet or an ultrabook!. No-one can make anything comparable to either one. It's all vapor, like the Courier.

 

And the MS "answer" is to put out one half-baked product that is supposed to do everything well (if you get the hot and heavy "Pro" one, that is), when MS are consistently 5 years late with each of their OS versions, and have no ARM experience. Meanwhile Apple has: worked with ARM for 20 years; puts out major mobile and desktop OS updates every year; created no end of custom silicon; has worked on battery technology; success in innovative materials and engineering; been recognized for quality, enduring products and customer satisfaction; successfully ported their OS not once, not twice, but at least three times to make it processor-agnostic! We would love to see MS innovate in software for once, since that is supposed to be their core business; but these software guys aren't just going to walk into the hardware business. The keyboard and kickstand are untested and reviewers weren't allowed to try them out. Oh, Metro is the innovation? Pretty, but OS X has slid into different modes for years (widgets, Time machine, launcher, etc.), and the core animation underlying the OS X and iOS UIs is better.

 

You go on about choice. But the sense in which MS says "No Compromise", it really means "No Choice": MS is not offering both an Ultrabook and a Tablet; therefore the consumer is not forced to make a choice. Oh, happy day, I can have it all! Thanks MicroSoft! Hellooo, Kevin, that is a compromise: not sure if I should get a laptop or a tablet? Hallelujah, I can compromise and get "both". Later I can be bummed out that it doesn't quite fulfill my expectation for either one... why? because I compromised! The Surface is a compromise as a "laptop", and as a "tablet", precisely because it is neither one. Just like a tandem bike could replace two bikes ...for two people who always want to cycle to the same place together. Get it? But hey, the Surface "solves" both these "issues"... except the issue of needing a great intuitive ultra mobile device in the first place.


Edited by krabbelen - 7/12/12 at 5:19am
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