Apple defends decision to withdraw from EPEAT certification - Page 3

To avoid confusion by having half their stuff on the list and half not. And for all we know they have the numbers to back up that those groups that are mandated to only by EPEAT weren't buying the qualifying stuff anyway, at least not in mega numbers compared to the other side. Especially when iOS devices are exempt and many companies are moving that way.

When an issue like this came up under Jobs, he'd take a few days and post a well reasoned response. This PR statement doesn't answer the question of why Apple withdrew. It tries to diffuse the matter by saying Apple exceeds others recycling efforts in some regards, but doesn't acknowledge that it has back tracked in others. The reality is that an important part of the standard, which Apple helped create, makes repair-ability an important requirement. By gluing memory, the display, and the battery to the case this undermines repair-ability. If Apple disagrees it should explain why its products aren't any less environmentally friendly.

There may be others issues involved with EPEAT and Apple, but most of us, even the Apple haters should recognize that easy repair and disassembly is a questionable standard. At least in the US. 

 

I used to repair and recycle all sorts of devices many years ago, not as any expert, but as just a normal guy with some knowledge and the ability to follow directions. Did a vacuum tube our TV fail? Okay, identify the tube and do down to the local TV repair store and buy a replacement, and when local radio/tv repair shops started to disappear, Radio Shack had what I needed. I could and did build my own radios back then. Same with my audio amps. I used to be able to repair the engine of my car. Can't do that now. Tools too expensive. Now, what happened to the carburetor? I used to rebuild those. I can't anymore -- they don't exist in the cars I now own. 

 

Okay, I can still replace the batteries in my watch, and if I put the effort in, replace the wristband too. Kiss off the TV now, the radio, dvd player, blue ray player. I used to be able to put in new chips on computer mother boards, add a GPU chip, or floating point chip in my old computers in the late 70's and 80's and even into the 90's. No problem replacing power supply. Did that too often -- once every couple of years. What a new case to put the mother boards in -- no problem. Even the PROM was replaceable (before they could be updated remotely). 

 

If case you haven't noticed, there is afoot recycling and reuse specialities now. It's not safe nor environmentally sound to flush expired drugs down the sink or toilet. It gets into the environment and is pernicious. There are drug drop off points, and we expect those involved will have the knowledge and expertise to dispose of these items responsibly. Fluorescent and CFL and halogen bulbs contain toxic substances. It is the responsible thing to do to take to a special drop off point. They charge you in many cases.

 

Thirty to forty years ago, when PC's and mini-computers were rare and the technology design was in its infancy, only the relatively few of us had the knowledge and temerity to own and repair these devices. These devices were not as massed produced as they are today, and not sold to nor affordable by most. Nor were they as reliable. A reasonable argument can be made that ease of repair and replacement is inversely correlated with reliability and quality. 

 

I don't follow or agree with all laws, but when it comes to panhandlers and beggars, I do happen to agree that it's a bad idea and counterproductive to give those types any sort of money at all.

 

As for your second comment, I seem to catch more flack here than ten Fandroids combined! So, I always have to be on the defensive.

 

 

Only Apple is victimized.  That has been a meme in the Apple world forever.  Steve started it with the 1984 commercial, ran with it, and developed it.

 

Us against the world, we Think Different.  An oppressed minority fighting for what is good and right against the forces of darkness.

The mantra is reduce, reuse, recycle. The Prioriies should be in that order. Repairing fits into the second category, and is a valid priority. What Apple's strategy focuses on now appears to prioritize reducing material use, and then splitting the product into a split reuse/recycle stream.

Apple's solution is better than taking your household electronics to the toxic materials disposal drop-off, if you know it exists or if you trust it. (what do you do with a HDD when you can't remove it and destroy it?)

That complicates using a simple catch phrase.

exactly - this statement is simple nonsense. Some will regurgitate this stupidity in some misguided sense of loyalty (or lack of critical thinking skills) but most will see it for what it is - spin.

 

just another sign of the dumbing down of Apple.

Well thanks for pointing out the connection. He had me until now. Even obliquely agreed with me yesterday. That of course really fooled me.

We are plagued by professional pests here. ConradJoe's old accusation that Apple II is here to give Apple fans a redneck, barbarian dimension is nowhere more evident than in this thread. And ConradJoe is now JerrySwitched.

 

What insights are you seeking? EPEAT has a paper measure of recyclability. Apple decided that it should not be measured by those standards, but that it still cares about the environment. Its reasons are probably due to the demands of their changing manufacturing process (for example, using glue instead of screws). There really isn't much more to it than that.

 

At first, I couldn't see why people are taking you to task for saying a $599 computer is cheap.  This is a "first-world" forum and $599 *is* cheap in today's market.  

 

Then I realised that it might have something to do with your attitude.  To me, most of the time you come across as the quintessential "Ugly American."  

 

You're quite consistently reactionary, argumentative, negative, and highly aggressive.  The fact that you have such an old-fashioned view of the world and are constantly insulting large groups of people who's only real fault is that they aren't like you, doesn't help much either.  

 

I think you should go to San Francisco, drop some acid, and hug a hippy or two.  Maybe burn an American flag once in a while to keep things in perspective.  Today's world isn't as bad as you think it is, and the old world wasn't as good as you remember either.  

 

I don't either. I feel sorry that they cannot defeat glue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNNqSXgj6DE

 

Why yes, I'm an Android spy obviously. That should be fairly evident from my posts. I secretly love Android, and at the moment, I am rooting my phone and I'm posting from a laggy piece of crap.

 

Anyway, as of tomorrow, I am pleased to announce that I'm out of here! 

 

I am leaving the country, and there will be very limited internet access at the fairly remote place where I will be going for my summer vacation. Enjoy the Fandroids, trolls and other imposters while I am gone!

 

But, I will eventually be back, where I will continue to tell it like I see it, much to the dismay and frustration of certain whiny people. I'll be gone for at least a month, so I'm giving ample warming. All whiners should put me on ignore.

Edited by Apple ][ - 7/11/12 at 7:48am

I can't believe I read through all this nonsense... haha!

 

Trying to stay on topic, I'll start by saying that we get too hung up on these government rating systems that are flawed. Yesterday Apple was environmentally conscious, but now that they don't participate in EPEAT, today they are not. That doesn't make sense to me, but OK. Next, I love how people proclaim to us that "I will not buy unless...". Fine, don't. But please, advertise what you bought is it's place that was "better". Lastly, everyone seems concerned about government contracts and education. Governments are broke. I wonder how much money they really are going to spend on desktops and laptops.

 

Oh, and one peeve of mine... Karma is not always bad... and wishing someone bad Karma is an acknowledgement that they have experienced good Karma (so they must be doing something right)... and in fact is a despicable thing to wish... and will probably just bring bad Karma to the wisher.

 

Finally, the previous statement was exactly the type of nonsense I was talking about in my first statement. So pot, meet kettle hahaha... but I had to say it! LOL
 

 

I don't really believe in karma, but I hope that you're right! People wishing me bad karma deserves to get hit by a falling piano when they are walking outside on the street later on today. Unfortunately, I'm not a witch or wizard, and I don't have any mythical powers.

I actually DID TRY taking an old iMac in to the Apple store for recycling ... unfortunately they told me I had to mail it in.

 

That's right, folks, your friendly neighborhood Apple store is for BUYING macs, EXCHANGING your white iPad for a black one (within the  first 14 days), GROKKING the new retina display and CHATTING with the employees but NOT for recycling.  You mail it in.  Apple mails you the mailer.  Very well thought through.

 

However, I thought this was too much of a pain, so I took the iMac to Best Buy.  They take everything.  (Not sure how much that's going to go on, though)

 

I'm not blowing smoke because I said clearly that we don't know what Apple is doing. I make no claims. I point out that Apple should state clearly what they are doing and what their intent is. The burden of proof is on them.

 

iFixit believes in reuse and repair. I think those are fine goals but I also understand that they are not always practical, especially for highly miniaturized devices. The recent iPhone fire involving a repair error shows that there are problems with the general ability to repair very small items.

 

The new MacBook Pro contains less than a pound of aluminum. This is not a lot of money, less than a dollar. You need to recycle a lot of machines in an hour to pay even minimum wage plus expenses, logistics, and so on. The more work involved, the less economic sense to recycle. This is why recycling starts at the design stage.

 

So the question: Apple is willing to lose money on its recycling operation, or do they do the lowest-cost thing and just dump the machine? Remember, Tim Cook is an operations guru who cuts costs everywhere possible, down to the cent.

 

If Apple is willing to subsidize their recycling operation to compensate for their product design choices, so be it. I have no problem with that. But I don't know that this is the case. I want Apple to tell me. That's not blowing smoke. That's asking a reasonable question, and easy for them to answer since they know exactly what they are doing.

 

That is the mantra, but mantras are just that. Reuse may not be practical when repair is needed. I keep my Apple gear running for years. My first gen iPhone till late last year, for example, and I replaced that only because it was stolen. It was working perfectly. However, had it not been working well, does repair of such a device make sense once it's a couple of years old? Not really, if the device can be recycled and the materials recovered. Consider that repair has its own footprint. Spare parts need manufacture, transportation, storage, etc. If products are durable and recyclable, you can give up reusability after a certain point.

 

The problem is that Apple is vague about their recycling process.

+99

Whats disappointing to me is that Apple even removed product that was already EPEAT gold!

I believe, based upon specifications the Apple is doing an excellent job environmentally. Still - standards are standards, I work with one fortune 500 company that has a requirement like EPEAT in its quality documents, for purchasing IT parts. The standard means we don't have to specify in our buying guides every company and manufacturers that can be bought from.

Clearly Apple wants to bring attention by excluding itself - esp parts that were already approved.

Now what was it with the SF school board - since when do you announce a product or service you won't be buying - 

just for the record - i will not be buying a Rolls Royce this year, or any lemon flavored ice cream.

 

But the issue is you do not comment on just Apple news, you start commenting on other people comments and make less thoughtful comments that also off topic, so stop ranting about us being off topic, because you started the diversion.

my point exactly, how is this apple focused comments..lol

Peeps,

 

It always makes me laugh, when people who do not like Apple products come to this forum and rant about the issues of Apple. Now do not get me wrong, this is a free comment forum, where anyone, who stays within forum rules can comment. But it is illogically for people who do not like Apple, to waste their time and rant about negative, since comments are wasted, since Apple will not change their strategy based on Apple haters.

 

As I would not go into Microsoft forum to discuss their products, since I know my words would be wasted.

 

But each to their own, just wish these people would be more constructive and less cheap thrill, cheap shot  comments.

Edited by souliisoul - 7/11/12 at 10:07am

A lot of people on this board have no faith in Apple... every decision that they make as a company is thoroughly thought out and calculated beyond what we can even imagine. There is an end game here people, we just have to be patient.

 

 

I'm sorry, I don't like getting off topic either, but I couldn't let this quote go. The reason that you are even able post something like this without being thrown in jail or worse, like you would in many other countries, is because of everything that flag represents! It makes me sick how quickly people are willing to bite the hand that feeds them, especially when the majority of the rest of the world would give up everything they have to be a legal citizen of our great nation.

I disagree that I started any diversion.

 

Somebody claiming that a $599 Mac Mini was not affordable is just about the most ridiculous comment that I have ever read on this site, and I shouldn't be blamed for replying and saying that it was very cheap.

 

I agree with you on that! I am a well known Android hater, and I have never concealed my distaste for that inferior and poor OS. However, you'll never see me signing up to an Android forum. What a waste of time!

 

And Apple haters should not come here either. They have no business being here. They should get lost.

 

Faith? No. That's for church if you are religious. Apple is a company. I say "trust but verify".

 

Why do you have to bring up religion?... nobody said anything about religion. If you look up the word "faith", the main definition is listed as:

 

faith

 

Obviously you have been wronged or misled by Apple in the past, or at least want to believe that you have been for some reason. I myself have never been given a reason to question Apple's practices or business ethics in any way, shape, or form.  Also, until they give me a reason to question them, they will have my complete faith (trust) in their company.

 

Same here. I can easily buy a new Apple product without even trying it out, because of my past experiences with already having bought plenty of their products, and not one has ever let me down. 

Yes, I'm not sure what detailed reasoning or explanation people are looking for.  You pretty much summed it up.  And I like the fact you said "paper measure", because that's all it is.  Unless or until someone cam demonstrate that the rMBP is bad for the environment all this noise about Apple leaving EPEAT is just that, noise.  Mostly spewed by Apple haters or those that have other another agenda (like iFixit).

Apple may have good reasons for withdrawing from EPEAT and be relatively ecologically friendly in their complete footprint as described on their website, but they dropped the PR ball by not providing more detail in advance for the EPEAT decision: "Specific requirement X does not make sense for our new products because Y.", "We would return to EPEAT if Z was changed."

 

Anything they say now sounds like damage control and this is not going away until they give specifics. For a company with a good record for image control, they look like amateurs this time.

The actual story here is that the CEO of EAPAT openly and without quibbling admits that their standards are at least partially obsolete.  Of course Frisbee, like all CEOs, is temporizing, minimizing, and otherwise trying to draw attention away from his organization's flaws.  Given the rate at which the technology evolves, "long in the tooth" is a euphemism for "grotesquely outdated," i.e., no longer relevant in the real world and in desperate need of revision.

 

When governing bodies don't move at least as quickly as the efforts they govern, the arguments of Ayn Rand's fervent, glassy-eyed disciples gain  weight and we come that much closer to corporate "might equals right."  

 

The failure here is EAPAT's.  Corporations like Apple don't make decisions that will decrease sales and damage their reputation lightly.  EAPAT must get its house in order before it loses all credibility.  San Francisco's action is typically reactionary; well-intentioned and misguided.  It would be far more productive if it and other concerned municipalities threatened to drop adherence to EAPAT until its standards are revised.  "Easily disassembled" is an absurd notion when applied to technologies that are rapidly moving toward microscopic components.  

 

After al the crap about people who don't have $599 not working hard enough it is this comment that made me sign up to comment. The majority of the rest of the world would not give up everything they have to be a legal citizen of the US. Your nation is ok I guess, got some great national parks, but your crazy reactions to patterned cloth make you a scary place to visit. You're not the only country with laws protecting free speech and the ability to burn flags.

 

 

Apple has held large scale recycling events in Ann Arbor the last few years. People can come with most electronic items they want to be recycled. Last year close to twenty semi - trucks of electronics were taken away. Apple hires a recycling specialist to take the items apart to salvage needed materials and responsibly get rid of the rest.

 

With that said, Apple's move to thinness for the sake of thinness at the expense of the ability to repair the machines seems flawed.

 

Ok... simmer down there turbo! Since you are on these message boards, I assume you are from another first world country. With that said, I am not really referring to people in first world countries, I am referring to the majority of the worlds population that live in 2nd & 3rd world countries. The places that are ran by dictators, that have no free speech, that are oppressed every day by their governments or those who claim to be in charge. Just because I defend my country does not mean I hate yours... lighten up!

 

The question is, what % is "the rest" and what % is recycled. It's a simple question. Apple does not say.

 

I've been pretty clear about the detailed explanation I'm looking for. What percentage, by weight, of Apple products does Apple actually recycle when you give them the product for recycling.

 

I don't need to demonstrate that the rMBP is bad for the environment. Apple, like every other manufacturer, needs to demonstrate that their products are and will be substantially recycled.

Apple may have suggested updates to EPEAT, unfortunately, EPEAT seems unwilling to discuss the issue. As for Apple, their newest compact notebooks appear to fail the easily deconstructed requirement, since they have had to glue the display to the aluminum casing & several components are soldered in place for lack of alternatives to mounting components together that will fit into the compact body. That appears to be the major sticky point. As for recycling, no computer maker is required to handle all of the recycling of their products, so what amount they recycle is of no real value. The aluminum bodies are 100% recyclable, whether the competing ultrabooks by PC makers are as recyclable as aluminum is unknown. Apple does offer to recycle older Apple computers, but repurposing of older models may also be common as well

Checkout what Apple says about their environmental efforts @ www.apple.com/environment

Cheers !

From the article ...

 

What I don't understand is how Macs that were previously certified by EPEAT as recommended purchases & have not changed in any way, shape or form (aside from a sticker that adds to the carbon footprint), have suddenly become unsuitable for purchase by Government agencies. Can someone explain that in terms that don't include the following words:

 

Petulance, Double Standards, Spite, Sour Grapes.

Edited by Dent - 7/11/12 at 8:58pm

I'd have to side with Stanton, Mojo. Your blowhard "defense" comes off as pure jingoism. I find that kind of crowing about American superiority embarassing.

http://www.apple.com/environment/faq.html

 

 

Q: What happens to computers when they are recycled?

A: When you recycle with Apple, your used equipment is disassembled, and key components that can be reused are removed. Glass and metal can be reprocessed for use in new products. A majority of the plastics can be pelletized into a raw secondary material. With materials reprocessing and component reuse, Apple often achieves a 90 percent recovery rate by weight of the original product.

EPEAT may or not be outdated, I have no idea if it is any less or more relevant now than when Apple helped to set it up. Never-the-less it is valuable from a position of clarity. Organizations that want to (or at least appear to) be environmentally responsible need a scheme that takes the guess work out of deciding upon a supplier.

 

I suspect that Apple are better than many of their competitors but I have no way of verifying that. In the UK, for example, WEEE (Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Directive) dictates that vendors must accept responsibility for the disposal of goods that they sell. This involves either paying a "landfill tax"  and or offering Take-Back. In theory I am allowed to walk into an Apple store with an old dell laptop, leave it there to be recycled and then buy a nice new MacBook (infact I can return the old product at any reasonable point after the new purchase).

 

If I visit the relevant pages on the Apple site I discover that I am allowed to return my old Apple equipment to an Apple store for disposal but there is no explicit mention of other brands. They do however go beyond the statutory minimum requirements by offering a 10% discount on a new iPod when returning an old iPod, kudos for the incentive.

 

"Recycle waste electronic equipment free of charge at local municipal collection points. Purchase any qualifying Apple computer or display and receive free recycling of your old computer and monitor at any UK Apple Retail Store"

 

Contrast this with "Home and Home Office users may avail of these free online services to recycle end of life computer related equipment (up to 2 boxes)or mobile devices (up to 1kg). If you have just purchased a new Dell system, monitor, printer or mobile device you may recycle any manufacturers brand, OR , you may use this service without making a new purchase to recycle any Dell Branded Product"

 

Other than discovering that I am allowed to return products I have no way of knowing what happens in other parts of the chain. Apple have pages informing customers that they are a responsible supplier but so do all of their competitors. Everyone will put a spin on the stats that they use but to me as an end user they are virtually meaningless without a yardstick by which to measure them.

 

IMO Apple need EPEAT, or rather they need to be a member of an organization that is considered to offer a level playing field and to be non-partisan.  

 

 

 

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