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Microsoft says Apple's 'post-PC' view is wrong, claims it's a 'PC+' era

post #1 of 210
Thread Starter 
Speaking at the company's Worldwide Partner Conference on Wednesday, Microsoft Chief Operating Officer Kevin Turner refuted Apple's "post-PC" view of the current computing industry climate, instead dubbing it a "PC+" era.

Turner admitted that Microsoft and Apple have different approaches to computer operating systems with the Cupertino, Calif. company focusing on a divergence in mobile and desktop solutions, reports The Verge, but claims that the Windows maker has the correct interpretation of what consumers want and need.

"Apple makes great hardware," Turner said. "The reality is in the OS we see things differently. They've talked about it being the post-PC era, they talk about the tablet and PC being different, the reality in our world is that we think that's completely incorrect."

The executive described the "PC+" world as one that uses a unified OS between all devices, as seen in Microsoft's new Surface which will run a complete version of the company's upcoming Windows 8 platform. The stripped-down down ARM-centric Windows RT version of Surface was not mentioned.

"We actually believe Windows 8 is the new era for the PC plus," Turner said. "We believe with a single push of a button you can move seamlessly in and out of both worlds. We believe you can have touch, a pen, a mouse, and a keyboard."

In contrast to Microsoft's ideas late Apple co-founder Steve Jobs famously said: "If you see a stylus, they blew it."

Current Apple CEO Tim Cook's ideas are in line with the Jobs' and sees Microsoft's PC convergence as poorly conceived. During the iPad maker's second quarter conference call, Cook said "you can converge a toaster and a refrigerator, but you know, those things are probably not going to be pleasing to the user." He went on to explain that while certain aspects of OS X and iOS borrow from each other, tablet and desktop form factors require different software solutions due to how the devices are used by consumers.

PC+
Slide displayed during Turner's speech at Microsoft's Worldwide Partner Conference. | Source: The Verge


Microsoft is looking to create an ecosystem of products with a best-of-both-worlds approach which is expected to take shape when Windows 8 is released this October. Turner calls the newly-designed operating system a "game changer."
post #2 of 210

Is that why YoY PC sales are down?  MS... wrong again.

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Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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post #3 of 210
They had two extra decades to get Windows on tablets and you've failed. It's also going to take them about 3 additional years after the iPad was launched to get an ARM-based tablet out the door.

Their philosophy in SW design is much like those sad, creepy people on Hoarders. They simply can't seem to part with any code so they just keep adding things that reduce the user experience. I"ll be shocked if their One device for all uses solution actually works out.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #4 of 210
"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"

"Well, then, you truly are lost!"

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #5 of 210

Ugh! Watch the clumsy intro to the Surface....I say again, Ugh! :) MS is stuck in the 90's

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jozTK-MqEXQ

post #6 of 210

I am just reading the article in Vanity Fair "How Microsoft Lost Its Mojo". Looks like they say it has been the 10 year reign of Ballmer is the reason for the "Lost Decade". So here ,Mr. Knows It All,  opens his mouth again. Anyone think we should listen?

post #7 of 210

Of course it's a PC+ era,

but Apple already called it a Post PC era first.

True or not, it's already been said and it's already been gobbled up.

 

This is equivalent to a child's enthusiastic "NU-UHH!!!"

and Microsoft is coming in a little late to make it count.

post #8 of 210

oh course they see it that way, so did IBM when the PC come onto the stage, they though the PC would be an extension to the Mainframe and they would never disappeared, I know many of you have no clue what a Mainframe is, and you kids in 20 years will no idea what a PC is either.

post #9 of 210
Has Ballmer commented on whether a tablet is a PC or not? If not I can see that coming once they sell a few ... that will be the moment Apple can give in and agree ... then post the Apple sales data for 'PCs' (Macs + iPads).
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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post #10 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

They had two extra decades to get Windows on tablets and you've failed. It's also going to take them about 3 additional years after the iPad was launched to get an ARM-based tablet out the door.
Their philosophy in SW design is much like those sad, creepy people on Hoarders. They simply can't seem to part with any code so they just keep adding things that reduce the user experience. I"ll be shocked if their One device for all uses solution actually works out.

Thats not the point.... the point is that the PC is not going away, instead PC's are being supplemented by tablets.

MS is right... its simple, tell me what "PC" stands for.... now tell me what a tablet is... or are tablets not personal?

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

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PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #11 of 210
Absolutely... espcially given that 'some' insist on including iPads sales when quoting Apple's total 'Personal Computers' sold each quarter.

PC+ is a far more accurate description of the current computing landscape.
"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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post #12 of 210

once again microsoft is reactive, not proactive

post #13 of 210
In other news: a product manufacturer claims that the future is what their products are compatible with.
The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
  Samuel Johnson
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The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
  Samuel Johnson
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post #14 of 210
If that's what Microsoft is focusing into may God save their souls.
lvidal.-
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lvidal.-
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post #15 of 210

Ballmer was right all this time... no one would EVER spend that much on a Phone!!  *rolls eyes*

Microsoft is basically fighting the last stand at the OK Corral. They are trying to prove to everyone that they are still relevant.

It is a post-PC area.  I don't think PC's will ever really be gone.  They certainly will be still used in the business world, however when consumers get home or are out and about with their lives, it will be mobile/consumer tech and that's where Microsoft is going to be buried 6-feet under.

Microsoft had so many shots and opportunities for decades.  They flopped each time.  How embarrassing.  

post #16 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

Thats not the point.... the point is that the PC is not going away, instead PC's are being supplemented by tablets.

MS is right...
The point is MS thinks it can do the same thing its done for decades and still make it work. As quoted, "We believe with a single push of a button you can move seamlessly in and out of both worlds. We believe you can have touch, a pen, a mouse, and a keyboard." The iPhone and iPad work because it was designed from the ground up for the primary I/O with usability in mind, not by saying thinking like a desktop OS.
Quote:
its simple, tell me what "PC" stands for.... now tell me what a tablet is... or are tablets not personal?

If you want to say that PC refers to anything that can compute and is personal then I'm all for it. Of course, you should realize that MS has no intention of doing that because their OS and their OEM standings would look considerably worse even when only adding in the iPad. Their goal is the same as its always been as are those that call the iPhone and iPad "toys." It just sounds pathetic and desperate.

274


PS: Post-PC doesn't mean without PCs, it just means coming after PCs. Steve had it right when he said they would be more like trucks. Desktop PC towers have long since moved into the role.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #17 of 210

It's not a Post-PC...it's a PC+

 

 

It's not a car...it's a Buggy+
It's not a lightbulb...it's a Candle+
It's not glass...it's Sand+
 
heh...this is fun! I should be in marketing. 
post #18 of 210
Maybe Microsoft can explain why Windows Tablet PCs haven't been a mainstream hit since the early 1990s.

I used Windows tablets going all the way back to Windows 3.11 running on 386 tablets. They just put a new coat of paint on Windows and the Tablet PC and are trying to convince you it's now PC+?

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #19 of 210
I would like to give Microsoft a benefit of the doubt, but they are really doing it wrong.

Apple phrased "post-PC" after iPad became a huge success. Microsoft, on the other hand, is using "PC+" before delivering results.
post #20 of 210
Microsoft is great at compromising. Compromising leads to watered down end products. Case in point: Microsoft's entire history. Until MS decides to take risks, REAL risks, and quit compromising they will always be second tier. Even when they were on top it was with a second tier, inferior product.

No surprises here.
post #21 of 210

Microsoft can't accept the fact that what was great back in the day, does not apply now. Microsoft should continue providing the PC's operating system. Microsoft should avoid making themselves look foolish in trying to compete with Apple's approach. Apple's market is different (Think Different).

post #22 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


If you want to say that PC refers to anything that can compute and is personal then I'm all for it. Of course, you should realize that MS has no intention of doing that because their and their OEM standings would look considerably worse even when only adding in the iPad. There goal is the same as its always been and those that call the iPhone and iPad "toys." It just sounds pathetic and desperate.
274


i think the real way you can cut it would be "all purpose PC's" and "entertainment PC's" :)   This gives you two distinct graphs, "older" versions of PC's and "newer" versions of PC's.

 

I believe that is the best split.  They are all PC's! just they have completely different roles!

MS wins in volume on "traditional PC's" (and maybe even on overall revenue depending on how many of Lenovo's sales are Thinkpads, Some thinkpads can cost more than MBP's for the same specs!!) and "new PC's" which Apple would dominate for at least the next 5 years.

 

Hope that cleared up my point/idea for how everyone wins (except for makers of shitty low quality copied directly from Apple) which i believe leaves a few Nexus/Lenovo/Palm tablets.

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

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PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #23 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanada View Post

If Apple got serious and produced a real Office Suite comparable to MS Office (iWork doesn't count) but lean, mean and full of features, Microsoft would be screwed.

If I was a Microsoft investor, I would be seriously concerned. Don't let MS turn into RIM.

And if Apple made it have backwards compatibility with old file types... that is the real problem i think....

and MS office is so entrenched.... imagine if RIM had phones with 10 year contracts..... and no way to terminate early....

aside from that it would be great!!! (aka once if took 5-10+ years to grow)

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #24 of 210

I do like Microsoft's incorporation of a PC based processor into their Surface which will run PC software and have usable USB ports.  In my business, this is a better and more useful direction for a tablet, showing that the iPad is really just for games and internet access and not work.  I see a place for both.

post #25 of 210
post #26 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post


i think the real way you can cut it would be "all purpose PC's" and "entertainment PC's" 1smile.gif   This gives you two distinct graphs, "older" versions of PC's and "newer" versions of PC's.

I believe that is the best split.  They are all PC's! just they have completely different roles!
Quote:
MS wins in volume on "traditional PC's"...

Are traditional PCs not the same all purpose PCs? If so, then why obfuscate your point? if not, what's the difference? Seems to me you are assuming that if it's running Windows it's good and if it's not it's not good. You even solidify that comment by categorizing the iPad as being just for entertainment and falling back into the pejorative "toy" category.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #27 of 210

first phase: denial

post #28 of 210

the best thing about this debate is that the answer will be decided in the marektplace over the next year. and we'll actually see who was right/wrong.

post #29 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanada View Post

If Apple got serious and produced a real Office Suite comparable to MS Office (iWork doesn't count) but lean, mean and full of features, Microsoft would be screwed.

If I was a Microsoft investor, I would be seriously concerned. Don't let MS turn into RIM.

Very few people need "full of features" office suite. Once in a great while I need Excel because a certain function is not supported in Numbers. Likewise, I very infrequently need Word - only when someone sends me a .doc with funky layout. 99.9% of the time I can use iWork for all my compatibility and collaboration with Windows coworkers and associates. I admit that office productivity is not my main job description but still many office workers use the wrong application in the suite half the time anyway. Even our PhD scientists are known to mistakenly use Powerpoint or Excel when they should be using Word. That is the problem with Office, they need fewer features, not more. 

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #30 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

the best thing about this debate is that the answer will be decided in the marektplace over the next year. and we'll actually see who was right/wrong.

Remember when people thought the Zune would kick ass because MS always won? Things didn't work out so well and that was when MS had a dominate mind share in the tech field. Things could be different, but based on my experience with Win8 and their inability to understand what customers want and how to focus on a single product I'm guessing they won't this time around either. Things will get more clear once they actually give us a ship date on and price points on their multiple tablets with incompatible OSes and apps.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #31 of 210

It's not a burger...it's a Cow+

It's not cheating...it's Monogamy+

They're not shoes...they're Feet+

It's not sex...it's Masturbation+

 

Thank you Microsoft!

post #32 of 210
Uncle Ballmer to the rescue!!!!!!!

300


MS is the industry step child that no one wants to talk about.
post #33 of 210
In the client consumer space the last 20 years have seen evolution from pc, through phones, mp3 players, smartphones, tablets. All are still in play but sales are splitting across more markets. Whilst their are more devices and consumers, there are certainly more OSes, hardware and app vendors. Those that monopolised earlier markets have lost share to others. Who'd have thought a search engine creator would become the Google of today and see Apple create mp3 players let alone phones and tablets. MS Win, Dell, IBM, Adobe have lost share to all the newcomers or to those that were able to lead or evolve like Apple, Google. TVs are evolving. MS has arrived late to the tablet space. MS and Sony have become game console makers. Desktops are dead. Laptops have gotten large, small, and now thin with makers providing their own OSes, but probably in reducing numbers in an increasing consumer market.

Sadly in the enterprise space, change is a slow struggle. Big players are still enjoying large markets and big margins. User phones are accessing company email but not a whole lot more. Byod might see new technologies but Agreements and leasing arrangements will take time. Device numbers across enterprises not likely to change much. 

Consumer+ or Post Monopoly may be a more apt motivator/descriptor. 
post #34 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Has Ballmer commented on whether a tablet is a PC or not? If not I can see that coming once they sell a few ... that will be the moment Apple can give in and agree ... then post the Apple sales data for 'PCs' (Macs + iPads).

This really got started because at All Things D, Walt Mossberg asked Steve Ballmer and Ray Ozzie to comment on Apple's "post PC" vision, and Ballmer said (something to the effect) that "tablets are Pee Cees too" and laid out his vision of tablets just being another PC form factor.

And that's EXACTLY how Microsoft has approached tablets since the 1990s. Nothing has changed. Windows 8 isn't some new insight into the future of computing. It's Windows 7 with a new coat of Metro paint and some neon colors.

Ballmer's statement indicates that he doesn't get what makes iPad a success. I would say that calling Apple "wrong" is just posturing. Of course they're going to defend their product.

But the market will be the final arbiter of who is "wrong," and so far, with nearly TWO DECADES of the Windows Tablet PCs behind them, Microsoft's vision of "tablets are pee cees too" have proven not to be the formula for success.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #35 of 210

Unified OS for desktop and another smaller form factor. That's brilliant, Microsoft! You should try that on phones, too! That sounds like a winner!

 

Oh... wait...

post #36 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by sessamoid View Post

Unified OS for desktop and another smaller form factor. That's brilliant, Microsoft! You should try that on phones, too! That sounds like a winner!

Oh... wait...


Remember the first time they thought their dominance on desktops means they can use the same UI across all systems? I guess it worked out well until something useful came along.

"Let's use a Start Button!"
"Of course we have to include the Windows Start Button."

640

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #37 of 210

The slide depicted from Turner's speech actually just cements my view that Apple's view is the right one.  I personally would rather that my devices have an OS and hardware which are optimized for the functions of that particular device.  My laptop is heavier, but has more horsepower and an OS suited for laptop based tasks.  As does the iPhone and iPad.  Why would I want to run a desktop OS on a mobile device?  Especially when everything in life is about tradeoffs.  By running a desktop OS like the one present on the Surface pro, you have to make all of the following tradeoffs.  From my view, it is inferior as a supermobile tablet (iPad) and inferior as an ultrabook.  It is just like Tim Cook's RefrigaToaster analogy, you have one product that serves neither role well.  Then they contradict themselves by offering the Surface RT which again will be inferior to the iPad 3 in terms of battery life and App ecosystem.

 

My Comparison of Surface Pro to iPad (3rd Generation) (italics are assumptions because it is an unreleased product)

  • 37% Heavier (903g vs 660g for iPad 3)
  • 43% Thicker (13.5mm vs 9.4mm for iPad 3)
  • No option for built in cellular provider connectivity
  • Additional ports such as USB and slot for MicroSDXC plus MiniDisplayPort without the use of an additional external adapter
  • Kickstand and typecover do not allow for laptop operation as they require the product be placed on a hard surface. (harder to use on a plane/train/in bed)
  • Likely shorter operational time on a charge due to higher power Intel processor coupled with 42 wh battery vs 42.5 wh in iPad 3
  • Likely to run hotter
  • Likely to be slower than an actual ultrabook such as the MacBookAir
post #38 of 210

Yes, Microsoft will take fail to a whole new level.

post #39 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcallows View Post

once again microsoft is reactive, not proactive

 

 

And as always, ineffectively so.

post #40 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

Ballmer was right all this time... no one would EVER spend that much on a Phone!!  *rolls eyes*

Microsoft is basically fighting the last stand at the OK Corral. They are trying to prove to everyone that they are still relevant.

It is a post-PC area.  I don't think PC's will ever really be gone.  They certainly will be still used in the business world, however when consumers get home or are out and about with their lives, it will be mobile/consumer tech and that's where Microsoft is going to be buried 6-feet under.

Microsoft had so many shots and opportunities for decades.  They flopped each time.  How embarrassing.  

 

Every time I find myself cutting Microsoft a little slack for working on something different and toning down the obnoxious rhetoric, one of their clown executives slithers out of the sewer to claim a false victory and bash Apple. Their ineptitude convinces me they're destined for failure, and their arrogance makes me eager to see them fail.

 

 

Microsoft: no vision, no leadership, no taste, no class.


Edited by freediverx - 7/12/12 at 3:53pm
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