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Microsoft says Apple's 'post-PC' view is wrong, claims it's a 'PC+' era - Page 4

post #121 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyngyrz View Post

No, I don't want optical media. I said I wanted a card slot. It's be nice if you read what I wrote instead of responding to your imagination.

USB and IR? You bet I could use those. As could a significant portion of the market.

As for the rest, pfft. I dont' defend their decisions. I simply observe Apple is screwing up here with these poorly chosen new directions for IOS and OSX. Time will prove me right.

I didn't imagine anything. You state "optical" right in your first paragraph and don't try to say you meant "IR" because you state that previously in the same sentence. I didn't imagine anything and your rebuttal is week indicating you have no argument for my truisms. USB and IR are not needed by a significant number in the market. The fact that tens of millions (if you count iPhones, iPod Touches and iPads together it's hundreds of millions) of devices sold without any of these features then you see that they are not needed.

BTW. You never answered about your TV, VCR, gas mileage, stove, or floppy disks.

You are the minority. And that's okay. I'm sure they'll still let you get married. Unless you're in the gay minority too. Oh, oh! Or considering your attachment to the outdated you're still living in the fifties. Then you couldn't marry someone of a different race either. Man. Your life sucks dude. Come to the 21st century when you're ready. We're waiting for you. But you'll need to do an Erase & Install so your life works and is compatible in this century.

Hmmmm. I guess you're just screwed.
post #122 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

 

As mentioned, Jobs' analogy of cars and trucks makes the most sense. 

 

Traditional PCs = pickups

Tablets/Smartphones = sedans

 

I suppose laptops, who although predate tablets actually seem like a tweener category between PCs and Tablets, are analogous to crossover vehicles, SUVs, etc.

 

At one point, everybody used trucks. Now they're mainly used in professional settings or for people who need to haul things around. While not replacing trucks, the center of focus for the average person has shifted to sedans, and their ilk. Why? They accomplish 95% of what the average person needs to do, while having the benefits of a better ride, better fuel economy, etc. 

 

PCs/workstations/etc won't be replaced anytime soon. Professionals still need them, and prosumers may have one at home to do heavy lifting. But the industry's focus is shifting to the tablet, as it accomplishes 95% of what the average user wants to do: browse the web, shop online, bank online, check email, view photos, play games, and stay up to date with family and friends. For the average user, how often do they need the functionality of a PC? A tablet does the majority of what people want, and it presents a more portable form factor, a more enjoyable experience, and better battery life.

 

For me personally, I use a PC at work. I could never replace the functionality with a tablet; even if the processor was just as fast, the form factor is for portability, not serious work. But when I get home? I don't even have a PC at home. Just an iPad. And an iPhone. I haven't had a need for a PC at home for quite a while. 

 

I imagine we're headed down a path where most people will be in a similar boat: a PC at work, a personal device (tablet, etc) at home. For some people, they might continue to have a PC at home, but it will outnumbered by personal devices; instead of the days when a home had 3-4 PCs at home, there will be perhaps 1 PC and 2-4 personal devices. Just like people may have a pickup truck at home for the occasional chore, but they drive around in a Camry most days. 

 

exactly, but while a tablet can be used for 95% of the things most people need to do i would still prefer a traditional PC currently.  for things like tabs....

 

And as for better battery life, that is generally true, a few computers have splice batteries that can give them crazy battery life.. As on my earlier post said, one laptop with splice battery + one replacing its cd slot theoretically gives it almost 20 hours of wifi surfing the web...

 

not that it matters, because tablets will (should) become the largest portion of the marketshare every year (not just after Apple's huge iPad penetration)! 

 

However, the surface is the kind of tablet a "power user" would use.... for example on my jailbroken iPhone i typically have 20+ tabs open.... 

 

 

just to sum up my big overall point is that for the next 5-10 years PC+ makes sense.  afterwards, once tablets are enough for everything for super power workstations, multimonitors and heavy gaming, and servers (herp derp, its my tablet server), etc, etc.  Than i will say it is a post-(traditional) PC era....

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

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PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #123 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyngyrz View Post

...there is no  inherent conflict between "just works" and "highly capable"
 
For instance, you think adding an IR port (so the tablet can talk to/at your stereo, tv, etc.) will make the tablet suddenly not "just work"?
 
You think adding a memory card slot will make it not "just work"?
 
You think that because a folder can have more than 16 apps in it, it'll stop working? Or that if you can drag one folder into another, you can't drag them back out? Or never drag them in at all?
 
You're not thinking at all.
 
However, yes, the competition will be doing all these things and more, and if Apple sticks to this "dumbed down" hardware path, they'll simply fall behind. So I predict that Apple will see the light, and not too long from now, either. And in the meantime, I'll just wait -- because I'm not buying an "upgrade" that isn't an upgrade.

 

'You think adding a memory card slot will make it not "just work"?'

 

Consider this:  When you do such a simple thing as add a card slot to a tablet, this simplifies everything... Right?

 

Wrong!  It is just the opposite... it complicates everything!

 

-- the User, the OS and the device need to keep track of where things are:  on the device; on the presently-inserted memory card; on another memory card

 

-- how do you span 1 or more memory cards for a large file or set of related data?

 

-- there needs to be an index [app] and accessible file system [app] to allow access and movement among the internal SSD and the various memory cards

 

-- you need another device (likely a pc) to aggregate and manage the content of the various memory cards

 

-- what do you do when the desired file or app is not on the designated device?

 

-- to take advantage of the memory card slot, you must carry around a bunch of memory cards, put them in something, label them so you can tell what's on them

 

-- you need to develop a workflow so you know when to create them, merge them, back them up or erase them as necessary...

 

 

Just like the need for [the hassle of] external tapes and CDs killed the Walkman and other pmps, external storage, external memory cards would add levels of complexity to the mobile tablet.

 

 

There are special cases where external memory cards are useful -- ingesting video or pictures form a camera -- but even these are being replaced by WiFi and the could.

 

 

But for most users, an external memory card slot just adds unnecessary, and unwanted, hassle.

 

 

It makes all the difference in the world -- you don't need to gather your memory cards, determine which are needed (hopeful you are accurate), put them in something to carry along with you...   Instead, you just grab your tablet and go...

 

 

It kinda' reminds me of packing up the toddler to visit friends in the winter time...  You spend 15 minutes getting them dressed... then they have to go potty... undress, redress -- go visit your friends and spend another 15 minutes getting them undressed.   After about an hour visit, it is time ro repeat the process for the return trip home.


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 7/13/12 at 11:49am
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post #124 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigmamatic View Post


The reasons you defend MSs decisions are based on the same fallacies MS is making and has always made. You cling to the past. Case in point, you want USB, IR, and optical media on a tablet.
Optical media is dead - that's a fact. No one is working on a successor to BlueRay and anything that tries to would fail. Burning disks or buying movies on disk is outdated and obsolete. Have you seen sales figures for optical media? It is quickly on its way out and I for one and many others don't lament it's death. Any view other than that is likely short-sighted.
IR is outdated. It's hardly used. Even my ceiling fan uses RF for its remote. IR is only good for remote controls and with the ubiquity of BlueTooth and WiFi there is no need for IR. one would surely never choose IR over BT or, especially, WiFi for data transmission. There is no point to IR for either a remote (must be line of site) or data transfer (can you say painfully slow?).
USB is not necessary for a tablet. One doesn't do anything with USB that they can't do over WiFi or BT. File transfer with a thumb drive? Why? You've already got your portable device in the tablet. Carrying around a thumb drive or hard drive in addition to that is assanine. USB mic? You have a dual purpose audio port that works with several third party headsets. Backup Drive? You have the cloud and backup to PC (which should have its own dedicated backup drive hense a double backup solution - triple if you count the cloud).
In reference to your file system argument, well, I'd like greater capacity per folder as well but it hasn't been a huge issue for the majority of users. Additionally the dismissal of the traditional folder system is welcome. Most users can't figure out where their résumé is saved to on their C drive to save their lives. It's pathetic, but true. Most users think their document is stored IN WORD. Not as an independent file. I know all this from my experience working with the public. So Apple's in app documents simply builds on the consumers expectations. The fact that the docs are stored on the cloud as well as locally as independent files is transparent so the user always knows where to go for their data. To the app that created it.
The iPad (and iPhone and iPod Touch, and Android devices for that matter) are disruptors. They are not continuations of the same OLD tired and dying technology that a minority of users are unwilling to give up or are blinded to the demise of their ubiquity. The iOS devices are a new breed ushering in an erra where we are liberated from dragging around a half dozen peripherals to support our bloated PCs (I use the term PC to describe both PCs and Macs in this context). The rest of the world is moving on and you're welcome to join the ride or stay behind. If you need IR, USB, and optical drives for the majority of what you do with a tablet then by all means stick with your legacy technology. No one is asking you to abandon it. Just don't expect the rest of us who have moved on to continue to cater to your needs because we will not. Like religion, political party, or favorite ice cream flavor the choice is yours. Just don't impose it on me.
On that note, how's your standard definition CRT TV, VCR, carburated engine, 3.5" floppy disk drive, and wood burning kettle stove working out for you?

 

+++ QFT

 

Nice post!

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post #125 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyngyrz View Post

 

Good grief. I am an Apple developer, and more than that, I've been developing software since the 1970's. It's no easier (or more difficult) to develop IOS apps than it is OSX, WIndows or Linux, for that matter. It's just (slightly) different. The cost of IOS apps is just a marketing strategy. And there are some that are quite expensive, too. As well to note that there are many inexpensive or free OSX, WIndows and LInux apps.

 

I really don't know where you people get these crazy ideas.

 

Fastest? No. There are faster computers out there than Apple makes; there are certainly some faster tablets, too. Lightest, yes, perhaps. And that's a big selling point, I agree. But it's not enough to keep them in front. The question every consumer ultimately asks is "what can this device do for me" and when APple comes up wanting in a comparison, that'll be the beginning of the market force that makes them adjust their strategy.

 

No, the consumer asks:  Can I do what I want to do?  They aren't assessing the device as much as they are defining their needs -- a very subtle, but important difference.

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post #126 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

 

exactly, but while a tablet can be used for 95% of the things most people need to do i would still prefer a traditional PC currently.  for things like tabs....

 

And as for better battery life, that is generally true, a few computers have splice batteries that can give them crazy battery life.. As on my earlier post said, one laptop with splice battery + one replacing its cd slot theoretically gives it almost 20 hours of wifi surfing the web...

 

not that it matters, because tablets will (should) become the largest portion of the marketshare every year (not just after Apple's huge iPad penetration)! 

 

However, the surface is the kind of tablet a "power user" would use.... for example on my jailbroken iPhone i typically have 20+ tabs open.... 

 

 

just to sum up my big overall point is that for the next 5-10 years PC+ makes sense.  afterwards, once tablets are enough for everything for super power workstations, multimonitors and heavy gaming, and servers (herp derp, its my tablet server), etc, etc.  Than i will say it is a post-(traditional) PC era....

 

Tabs?  Do you mean browser tabs or apps?  

 

On my iPad Safari there 10 tabs displayed across the top... the last tab (if necessary) opens a drop down scrollable list of other recent tabs...  I only had a total of 18, so I quickly added another 5 for a total of 23.

 

If you are referring to apps, I have about 22 in my iPad.s task bar.

 

 

As to your point about PC+ -- MS has promoted PC+ tablets for the last 10 years... and failed!  The bulk of the population (consumers and professionals, alike) have moved on and are adopting the post-pc iPad concept.

 

 

To illustrate, here is a new $9.99 iPad app I discovered today...  It is used by film and video directors, ADs, editors, producers to review dailies.

 

The site is hosted by Michael Cioni -- a very talented video/genius/everything guy.  He was responsible for setting up the editing gear, workflow and procedures for The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo.    TGWTDT was shot in Europe (mostly Sweden) and the dailies were shipped to the US as podcasts.

 

Here's the site:

 

http://lightiron.com/production/todailies

 

And here's Michael describing the workflow of TGWTDT a worthwhile watch:

 

http://fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/732-michael-cioni-talks-4k-workflow-and-fcp-proxies-for-the-girl-with-the-dragon-tattoo

 

 

The ToDaillies app

 

todailies-ipad.jpgtodailies-intro.jpg


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 7/13/12 at 12:38pm
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post #127 of 210

One of the challenging aspects of this conversation is the conflating of hardware and software. Narrowing it down, I'd love to know what everyone thinks of the following question:

 

Regardless of hardware, activity and setting, are we seeing the beginning of the end of the familiar (and 30 year old) Mac/Windows user experience in favor of more gesture/voice-based UX's like iOS and Metro?

 

In other words, will our "trucks" eventually run an iOS variant instead of OS X?

post #128 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

Tabs?  Do you mean browser tabs or apps?  

 

On my iPad Safari there 10 tabs displayed across the top... the last tab (if necessary) opens a drop down scrollable list of other recent tabs...  I only had a total of 18, so I quickly added another 5 for a total of 23.

 

If you are referring to apps, I have about 22 in my iPad.s task bar.

browser tabs.

 

usually more like 25-30.

 

and iphone only gives 8 tabs usually and the bookmarks aren't as nice as on a tablet, and switching tabs is a bit harder (from my experience with iPads)

 

as for apps... i don't use many apps.... i have a few tower defense games, mindsweeper, and sbsettings ofc.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilago View Post

One of the challenging aspects of this conversation is the conflating of hardware and software. Narrowing it down, I'd love to know what everyone thinks of the following question:

 

Regardless of hardware, activity and setting, are we seeing the beginning of the end of the familiar (and 30 year old) Mac/Windows user experience in favor of more gesture/voice-based UX's like iOS and Metro?

 

In other words, will our "trucks" eventually run an iOS variant instead of OS X?

 

neither, a version of them fused together for some, linux for some and whatever twisted thing MS comes with for the rest

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #129 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

EXACTLY!!!! ONCE traditional PC's supplement tablets we will be in a post(stereotypical)-PC world!!!

 

guess what, we are not even starting to enter one!!! TABLETS CURRENTLY SUPPLEMENT traditional PC's!!!

 

get back to me in 5-10 years and you may be right.

 

 

the Post (stereotypical) PC will come eventually, but right now i believe a PC+ world is more true.

 

my "definitions/understanding of what words mean": 

Post (traditional) PC: tablets/smartphones are completely supplemented by traditional PC's.

(traditional) PC+: tablets/smartphones are supplementing traditional PC's.

 

 

tell me which one of those is happening right now, than which one will (should) happen in 5-10+ years.

 

on that note, apparently Amazon has taken multiple MS phone high up people.... lol...

 

Get back to you in 5 Years? You must be joking!

 

Let's have a look in 5 months! That will put two quarterly announcements behind us. You do realize the kind of numbers we are talking about, don't you?

 

Apple is likely to show another gain in Mac sales when it announces in a few days, despite the overall downturn in the PC market this quarter. This has happened for a number of quarters in a row. Mac sales (just Mac sales, mind you, not iOS device sales) have been keeping the PC sales figures in positive growth. Apple moves up to about 3rd largest PC shipper in US market behind HP and whoever's second.

 

The Mac sells worldwide at maybe 1 for every 19 WinPCs sold, which is a huge improvement from the highest multiple that the Windows PC achieved when it was selling at 56 for every 1 Mac in 2004. The year 2004 was the high water mark for PC. Looking at sales figures alone you wouldn't see this kind of trend, but Horace@Asymco has done some tracking and analysis of this kind. Of course absolute sales numbers for all computers have gone up over the years because there is a larger market in which more and more people can afford to buy a PC -- though the WinPC might now be reaching its saturation (or toleration) in many markets given the recent declines in sales. It appears that new sales are increasingly going to the Mac as increasingly discerning consumers are replacing their old PCs with Macs, and have been for some time. 

 

But, iOS devices. Hmmm. We are talking about some incredible numbers. This is part of the reason analysts and MS don't want them counted as PC sales. They would skew everything. Little factoid: did you know, Apple sold more iOS devices in 2011 alone, than every Mac it has ever sold in 28 years! Over 200 million devices. And Apple is just getting started. There is no saturation in sight and the markets are just opening (because as you keep blathering on about, a person may keep his PC or even continue with a PC purchase ...while at the same time purchasing both an iPhone and an iPad for every member of his family to the neglect of his PC).

 

Looking back, the trajectories for iPod were good. Later, the trajectories for iPhone were exponentially better. The trajectories for iPad are off the charts.

 

Did you know, there are more new Android sales/activations than there are PC sales the world over on a daily basis. There are *almost* more iPhone sales/activations per day than PC sales as well (and iPhone sales should surpass PC sales this summer). So, for every PC sold in the WORLD TODAY, there is one Android sale AND one iPhone sale. The iPad, at half the age, is not far behind and is catching up quickly.

 

So, VERY SOON, imminently, there will be one iPhone PLUS one iPad sold for each and every PC sale in the world made by every PC manufacturer on the planet combined!. Rather, there will be more iPads and more iPhones sold; because the sales rates of the iPad and the iPhone are increasing while the sales rate of the WinPC is decreasing -- the trajectories are going in opposite directions.

 

Some 20 million iPads this quarter. Little wonder that MS is trying to freeze sales by introducing its non-existent, hyped-up Surface product. When it does materialize (if), it is going to be starting from a dead stop -- in about 20 MS stores apparently (MS is characteristically ambiguous on this). Do you think it will sell 3 million in one launch weekend like an iPad? One wonders if it will sell 3 million in 2013. And this is Microsoft's hope to replace declining PC sales. It seems that MS has achieved maybe 300k WinP7 sales the first half of this year, and these won't run Win8/WinP8/WinRT or whatever is to be MS answer to iOS (which anyone has yet to actually see running on ARM). There is more than a little catch up to do here to catch the Apple "machine" that has been carefully laying track and building steam for 10 years. There is absolutely nothing for MS and its supporters to be blithe or glib about.

 

5 - 10 years? Yes, that is how far MS is behind Apple right now.


Edited by krabbelen - 7/13/12 at 1:07pm
post #130 of 210

MSpreIpadPostIpad.png

 

It's a neat trick to hide the copy machine tactics of MS into a "pre" & "post" PC debate, when it should be about "pre" & "post" iPad.

post #131 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

browser tabs.

 

usually more like 25-30.

 

and iphone only gives 8 tabs usually and the bookmarks aren't as nice as on a tablet, and switching tabs is a bit harder (from my experience with iPads)

 

as for apps... i don't use many apps.... i have a few tower defense games, mindsweeper, and sbsettings ofc.

 

 

 

neither, a version of them fused together for some, linux for some and whatever twisted thing MS comes with for the rest

 

Because of the context of this thread, I was limiting my comments to the iPad.   Admittedly the "tabs" on the iPhone are different than on the iPad.  I think it is a valid decision to not use valuable iPhone real estate for tabs -- which would be hard to read and navigate.

 

As to tabs on the iPad -- what specifically is "a bit harder"in switching tabs?

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post #132 of 210
Removed...
 
Two of those magical AI forum moments

Edited by Dick Applebaum - 7/13/12 at 1:55pm
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post #133 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilago View Post

One of the challenging aspects of this conversation is the conflating of hardware and software. Narrowing it down, I'd love to know what everyone thinks of the following question:

 

Regardless of hardware, activity and setting, are we seeing the beginning of the end of the familiar (and 30 year old) Mac/Windows user experience in favor of more gesture/voice-based UX's like iOS and Metro?

 

In other words, will our "trucks" eventually run an iOS variant instead of OS X?

 

Great question!

 

 

To a large extent, our Mac Trucks (see what I did there?) already run an iOS variant -- most apps can be run in the iPhone and iPad simulator.   All Apple need do is:

 

-- allow iOS apps to reside on the Mac OS desktop (or LaunchPad, or some such).

-- automatically invoke the iOS simulator to run the app (analogous to how playing a movie invokes QuickTime)

-- support and/or simulate hardware not available on the Mac (cell, touch, GPS, etc.)

-- possibly make a simulator and LaunchPad for Windows

 

Based on the way Apple is changing the Xcode development environment, I can see the day that a single code-base will be used for development of apps that run well on either OS, and exploit the advantages and minimize the limitations of the [currently] chosen environment for execution...  Kind of a download/run-time packaging, if you will.

 

I do think that OS X will evolve and continue hiding complexity from the user [by default] so that driving of a Truck and a Sedan will be an intuitive, compatible and pleasant experience (a Truck with air conditioning and an automatic transmission).

 

I suspect, that there will eventually be a convergence and iOS will be the dominant UI with OS X (the file system, etc.) under the hood -- like the CLI is now.

 

I just re-watched the TGWTDT workflow video that I posted earlier...  Michael Cioni discusses the difference between a "transition" and a "transformation" as it applies to video: 

 

A "transition" is going from SD to HD, or DVD to BluRay... it is just a natural progression and you don't "give up" anything.

 

A "transformation" is like going from film or tape to complete digital...  You are gaining capabilities (5K/4K resolution, over-shooting/sub-framing) -- where you just can't go backwards to the prior system.

 

I believe the iPad epitomizes the "transition" to a better way of doing things -- where you just can't go back to the old way...

 

For the grandparents and the youngsters there never was an old way...

 

Why do you need Windows, Office or Legacy app compatibility if you never used them?  Why clutter your life, your mind, your activities, your devices with unnecessary baggage?

 

 

Put another way, if Apple wants to sell Macs to grandma, the kids, and the non-techies -- they'll need to make the Mac run like an iPad [by default].

 

 

Edit:  Who would have imagined that the solution to FTFF... would be HTFF...  Hide the Fine Finder!

 

 

Edit 2:  This is where MS has it all wrong, IMO -- deemphasizing the [more iOS-like] Windows/RT... and promoting the "same old, same old" Windows 8/Pro...  put another way, "It's the simplicity, stupid!"


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 7/13/12 at 2:17pm
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post #134 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilago View Post

One of the challenging aspects of this conversation is the conflating of hardware and software. Narrowing it down, I'd love to know what everyone thinks of the following question:

 

Regardless of hardware, activity and setting, are we seeing the beginning of the end of the familiar (and 30 year old) Mac/Windows user experience in favor of more gesture/voice-based UX's like iOS and Metro?

 

In other words, will our "trucks" eventually run an iOS variant instead of OS X?

 

Interesting question. I believe very strongly in the cars/trucks analogy, so I will look to that analogy to provide my opinion:

 

Trucks are still very much alive today. While the majority of people drive sedans (tablets) and SUVs (laptops), there is still a (huge) niche for trucks. If you work in any sort of trade, you likely drive a truck for work or even personal use if you're self-employed. Some people just prefer the feel of a truck. And trucks today are no less a "truck" than they were years ago.

 

That said, trucks have experienced many improvements derived from what people like about cars. They ride nicer. They often have a backseat. They have entertainment systems. They get better gas mileage. The differences between cars and trucks are less than what they were. But I don't think any sane person expects them to merge chassis anytime soon. 

 

With that in mind, you can see the similarities in how OSX is gaining features that make it look (cosmetically) more like iOS, because they're things people like about iOS. But I don't expect OSX to ever lose file management (it may be hidden, of course, by default), multiple windows in a single display, etc. 

post #135 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

 

Interesting question. I believe very strongly in the cars/trucks analogy, so I will look to that analogy to provide my opinion:

 

Trucks are still very much alive today. While the majority of people drive sedans (tablets) and SUVs (laptops), there is still a (huge) niche for trucks. If you work in any sort of trade, you likely drive a truck for work or even personal use if you're self-employed. Some people just prefer the feel of a truck. And trucks today are no less a "truck" than they were years ago.

 

That said, trucks have experienced many improvements derived from what people like about cars. They ride nicer. They often have a backseat. They have entertainment systems. They get better gas mileage. The differences between cars and trucks are less than what they were. But I don't think any sane person expects them to merge chassis anytime soon. 

 

With that in mind, you can see the similarities in how OSX is gaining features that make it look (cosmetically) more like iOS, because they're things people like about iOS. But I don't expect OSX to ever lose file management (it may be hidden, of course, by default), multiple windows in a single display, etc. 

 

 

Good answers!  

 

It is interesting that the Surface RT has a feature borrowed from the [ill-fated] Courier, called Snap Window -- where you can run two apps, side-by-side, each in their own half-screen window.  You can get the iPad app Tapozé, which brings Snap Window and much of  the Courier experience to the iPad.   I think Apple would do well to implement some of these capabilities in iOS.

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post #136 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

Great question!

 

 

To a large extent, our Mac Trucks (see what I did there?) already run an iOS variant -- most apps can be run in the iPhone and iPad simulator.   All Apple need do is:

 

-- allow iOS apps to reside on the Mac OS desktop (or LaunchPad, or some such).

-- automatically invoke the iOS simulator to run the app (analogous to how playing a movie invokes QuickTime)

-- support and/or simulate hardware not available on the Mac (cell, touch, GPS, etc.)

-- possibly make a simulator and LaunchPad for Windows

 

Based on the way Apple is changing the Xcode development environment, I can see the day that a single code-base will be used for development of apps that run well on either OS, and exploit the advantages and minimize the limitations of the [currently] chosen environment for execution...  Kind of a download/run-time packaging, if you will.

 

I do think that OS X will evolve and continue hiding complexity from the user [by default] so that driving of a Truck and a Sedan will be an intuitive, compatible and pleasant experience (a Truck with air conditioning and an automatic transmission).

 

I suspect, that there will eventually be a convergence and iOS will be the dominant UI with OS X (the file system, etc.) under the hood -- like the CLI is now.

 

I just re-watched the TGWTDT workflow video that I posted earlier...  Michael Cioni discusses the difference between a "transition" and a "transformation" as it applies to video: 

 

A "transition" is going from SD to HD, or DVD to BluRay... it is just a natural progression and you don't "give up" anything.

 

A "transformation" is like going from film or tape to complete digital...  You are gaining capabilities (5K/4K resolution, over-shooting/sub-framing) -- where you just can't go backwards to the prior system.

 

I believe the iPad epitomizes the "transition" to a better way of doing things -- where you just can't go back to the old way...

 

For the grandparents and the youngsters there never was an old way... Why do you need Windows, Office or Legacy app compatibility if you never used them?  Why clutter your life, your mind, your devices with unnecessary baggage?

 

 

Put another way, if Apple wants to sell Macs to grandma, the kids, and the non-techies -- they'll need to make the Mac run like an iPad [by default].

 

 

Edit:  Who would have imagined that the solution to FTFF... would be HTFF...  Hide the Fine Finder!

 

I hear what you're saying, but I politely disagree on some points.

 

What is the point in running the "same" (implying identical code) apps on iOS and OSX? Why not two versions that sync data via iCloud (i.e. Pages for Mac and Pages for iOS)? From the user's standpoint, it would be no different, especially if apps are eventually sold as a bundle or "+" (like Universal iOS apps). Then there is no need for emulators, and apps can be coded for their specific OS and UI. With the emphasis on iCloud, I think this is Apple's direction.

 

I do agree that OSX will continue to borrow from iOS as far as UI goes, with complexity hidden by default, much like how trucks have air conditioned seats, better fuel economy, a backseat, etc. But the "Mac Truck" will still be a "truck". 

 

As far as the "transformation" paradigm shift, I agree. It's demonstrated that many people who thought they "needed" a PC really don't; they just need an iPad. Other people like grandparents who thought PCs were too hard to use have fallen in love with an iPad.  However, I disagree that Apple wants to sell Macs to the user segment you mentioned; I would say that want to sell iPads. That is their focus.

 

And to a certain extent, Apple is making OSX "look" like iOS because there will inevitably be a halo effect, and some people who fall in love with an iPad will choose a Mac when they purchase their next PC, and the changes will make them more comfortable. However, the user segment you listed don't "need" PCs; that's the whole point of the post-PC era. Most people only need an iPad to do what they want to do.

post #137 of 210

so, I am and was talking with my friend, i have a summary of what we were saying.

 

 

-it was a brutal in beginning, made himself use ipad 2 as main device to consume device

-when he did it they lacked some tech like online (aka remote simulation screened to tablet)

-cumbersome to do any word/excel/etc related work

-many websites were still not optimized for tablet

-he could survive on it for 4-5 months, didn't miss anything apart from intensive gaming.

-but believes that any tablet device is a very good compliment to desktop or laptop, but it will never replace a primary device no matter how good apps (things that replicate desktop experience)

-because restraints on screen size AND ways of impute (swype would have made it better, it is on android)

-had to use portable keyboard which worked as a stand

-can do 60% of his work on ipad vs. tablet, but could not replace completely

-streaming speeds slow compared to desktop + buffer less

-cannot not do multiple things at once (Seeing multiple programs at once)

-works as: investment background, was being mentored by men from two different multinational companies which both were financial firms

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #138 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

 

I hear what you're saying, but I politely disagree on some points.

 

What is the point in running the "same" (implying identical code) apps on iOS and OSX? Why not two versions that sync data via iCloud (i.e. Pages for Mac and Pages for iOS)? From the user's standpoint, it would be no different, especially if apps are eventually sold as a bundle or "+" (like Universal iOS apps). Then there is no need for emulators, and apps can be coded for their specific OS and UI. With the emphasis on iCloud, I think this is Apple's direction.

 

I do agree that OSX will continue to borrow from iOS as far as UI goes, with complexity hidden by default, much like how trucks have air conditioned seats, better fuel economy, a backseat, etc. But the "Mac Truck" will still be a "truck". 

 

As far as the "transformation" paradigm shift, I agree. It's demonstrated that many people who thought they "needed" a PC really don't; they just need an iPad. Other people like grandparents who thought PCs were too hard to use have fallen in love with an iPad.  However, I disagree that Apple wants to sell Macs to the user segment you mentioned; I would say that want to sell iPads. That is their focus.

 

And to a certain extent, Apple is making OSX "look" like iOS because there will inevitably be a halo effect, and some people who fall in love with an iPad will choose a Mac when they purchase their next PC, and the changes will make them more comfortable. However, the user segment you listed don't "need" PCs; that's the whole point of the post-PC era. Most people only need an iPad to do what they want to do.

 

Ahh... I should have been clearer. I did not mean identical code -- rather a shared, common code-base for the iOS, OS X (and possibly server version) of the same (or complimentary apps).

 

Rignt now in iOS, you can include common code, then unique iPad and unique iPhone code in the same source code-base.  Then you simple compile and link [package] for the desired targets.  

 

I would add [at least] two capabilities:

 

-- allow for the inclusion of OS X source and iOS source in the common code-base.

-- defer the packaging (at least the linking) to downloaad/install and/or execution time.  

 

 

As to selling Macs to grandma or the youngsters' parents...   Likely, for the next 3-5 years there will be a periodic need for a Truck -- to hold your media, to backup and sync, to act as an in intermediary between your iPad and the cloud.  

 

You might think of this as a home server.  Today, this would likely, be a Mac Mini with some external HDD and, possibly, the iPad as the display for the headless Mini.   In all likelihood, though, Apple could combine storage, AirPort Extreme, TimeMachine into an AppleTV-like box that provides the necessary support functions.  

 

When the cost/speed of bandwidth and storage advance to the proper levels, these "Mac" functions could be handled by the cloud.

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post #139 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

Ahh... I should have been clearer. I did not mean identical code -- rather a shared, common code-base for the iOS, OS X (and possibly server version) of the same (or complimentary apps).

 

Rignt now in iOS, you can include common code, then unique iPad and unique iPhone code in the same source code-base.  Then you simple compile and link [package] for the desired targets.  

 

I would add [at least] two capabilities:

 

-- allow for the inclusion of OS X source and iOS source in the common code-base.

-- defer the packaging (at least the linking) to downloaad/install and/or execution time.  

 

 

As to selling Macs to grandma or the youngsters' parents...   Likely, for the next 3-5 years there will be a periodic need for a Truck -- to hold your media, to backup and sync, to act as an in intermediary between your iPad and the cloud.  

 

You might think of this as a home server.  Today, this would likely, be a Mac Mini with some external HDD and, possibly, the iPad as the display for the headless Mini.   In all likelihood, though, Apple could combine storage, AirPort Extreme, TimeMachine into an AppleTV-like box that provides the necessary support functions.  

 

When the cost/speed of bandwidth and storage advance to the proper levels, these "Mac" functions could be handled by the cloud.

 

I do support the notion of Universal apps that include code for OSX, iOS (iPhone) and iOS (iPad), with a smart function that installs the correct version on each device. If purchased on the iPad, for instance, the correct version would be installed on your iPhone and iMac, for instance. However, the architecture of each OS would remain distinct, with only commonalities. Isn't iOS already based off the OSX kernel anyway?

 

This would likely involve unifying the Mac App Store and the iOS App Store, which makes sense I would think. When browsing on a Mac, only Mac Apps or Universal Apps would be listed, and vice versa, just like when browsing on an iPhone you don't see iPad apps.

post #140 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

so, I am and was talking with my friend, i have a summary of what we were saying.

 

 

-it was a brutal in beginning, made himself use ipad 2 as main device to consume device

-when he did it they lacked some tech like online (aka remote simulation screened to tablet)

-cumbersome to do any word/excel/etc related work

-many websites were still not optimized for tablet

-he could survive on it for 4-5 months, didn't miss anything apart from intensive gaming.

-but believes that any tablet device is a very good compliment to desktop or laptop, but it will never replace a primary device no matter how good apps (things that replicate desktop experience)

-because restraints on screen size AND ways of impute (swype would have made it better, it is on android)

-had to use portable keyboard which worked as a stand

-can do 60% of his work on ipad vs. tablet, but could not replace completely

-streaming speeds slow compared to desktop + buffer less

-cannot not do multiple things at once (Seeing multiple programs at once)

-works as: investment background, was being mentored by men from two different multinational companies which both were financial firms

 

Do you believe this represents the needs of the typical user?  Business user?

 

We haven't done any MS Office work for 4-5 years.  iWork is more than adequate on our Macs and iPads.

 

 

 

Yes, I can see for some that an iPad could never replace a laptop... but the converse is also true... how many millions of iPads could be replaced with a laptop?  In what situations?

 

Swype (and several similar apps) are available on the iPad.  With iOS 6 and the new iPad Siri dictation is available -- works quite well.

 

Streaming speed and buffering are seldom a problem in my experience.

 

There is an iPad app called Tapozé which implements Snap Screen and a 2-step drag and drop between two side-by-side apps...   This would be a nice feature for Apple to implement.

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post #141 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

 

exactly, but while a tablet can be used for 95% of the things most people need to do i would still prefer a traditional PC currently.  for things like tabs....

 

And as for better battery life, that is generally true, a few computers have splice batteries that can give them crazy battery life.. As on my earlier post said, one laptop with splice battery + one replacing its cd slot theoretically gives it almost 20 hours of wifi surfing the web...

 

not that it matters, because tablets will (should) become the largest portion of the marketshare every year (not just after Apple's huge iPad penetration)! 

 

However, the surface is the kind of tablet a "power user" would use.... for example on my jailbroken iPhone i typically have 20+ tabs open.... 

 

 

just to sum up my big overall point is that for the next 5-10 years PC+ makes sense.  afterwards, once tablets are enough for everything for super power workstations, multimonitors and heavy gaming, and servers (herp derp, its my tablet server), etc, etc.  Than i will say it is a post-(traditional) PC era....

 

I disagree with your notion that in 5-10 years, tablets will be able to replace power user functionality. While the processor may be up for it, the form factor is the limitation. But how often do most people "need" to do what a PC can do? As I mentioned, the majority of people just want to check email, browse the web, play Angry Birds, check FaceBook, view photos, etc. Tablets can do that (and often do it more conveniently). 

 

The notion of "post-PC" doesn't mean PCs are replaced entirely. It just means that there is a paradigm shift where the majority of users realize they don't need to have a PC for their daily life, or only need a single PC for the whole house — as opposed to the era when each family member practically had a PC. The new paradigm is that PCs are for work and power use. Thus they are "trucks", while the average person drives a sedan for personal use. There will continue to be the huge need for PC Trucks in work, and just like some people need (or want but don't really need) a personal truck, a niche of power users will continue to have a PC Truck. But post-PC means that the MAJORITY of average users will be fine with a Tablet Sedan.

 

Thus the whole semantics debate of "post-PC" vs "PC+" is stupid. Apple believes most people want to drive a Tablet Sedan for personal use, and MS still feels like the average user really wants a PC Truck. It's a philosophical difference, and that gets lost when you're arguing semantics. 

post #142 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

so, I am and was talking with my friend, i have a summary of what we were saying.

 

 

-it was a brutal in beginning, made himself use ipad 2 as main device to consume device

-when he did it they lacked some tech like online (aka remote simulation screened to tablet)

-cumbersome to do any word/excel/etc related work

-many websites were still not optimized for tablet

-he could survive on it for 4-5 months, didn't miss anything apart from intensive gaming.

-but believes that any tablet device is a very good compliment to desktop or laptop, but it will never replace a primary device no matter how good apps (things that replicate desktop experience)

-because restraints on screen size AND ways of impute (swype would have made it better, it is on android)

-had to use portable keyboard which worked as a stand

-can do 60% of his work on ipad vs. tablet, but could not replace completely

-streaming speeds slow compared to desktop + buffer less

-cannot not do multiple things at once (Seeing multiple programs at once)

-works as: investment background, was being mentored by men from two different multinational companies which both were financial firms

 

iPads aren't mean to replace the functionality of PCs for work/media creation (most of the time), any more than sedans are meant to haul gravel around like a pickup truck.

 

But most people don't need to haul gravel around and thus don't need a pickup truck, just like most people don't need to create a lot of content and thus don't need a PC. 

 

iPads are fine for some light content creation (typing a letter, email, light photo/video editing) just like a sedan is fine for hauling groceries. And that's the most the majority of people need to do. 

 

For most people, the power and functionality of PCs are overkill, and come at the expense of being more cumbersome, less portable, and have a higher learning curve. That's the post-PC paradigm shift: the emancipation of the average user from having to use, learn to use, or fearing to learn to use a PC for such "complicated" tasks such as web browsing, email checking, Angry Birds-playing, or Facebooking. Just like the PC era empowered individuals, the post-PC era is continuing to empower even the technically-challenged. 

 

PCs will still have their niche. 

post #143 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

Do you believe this represents the needs of the typical user?  Business user?

 

We haven't done any MS Office work for 4-5 years.  iWork is more than adequate on our Macs and iPads.

 

 

 

Yes, I can see for some that an iPad could never replace a laptop... but the converse is also true... how many millions of iPads could be replaced with a laptop?  In what situations?

 

Swype (and several similar apps) are available on the iPad.  With iOS 6 and the new iPad Siri dictation is available -- works quite well.

 

Streaming speed and buffering are seldom a problem in my experience.

 

There is an iPad app called Tapozé which implements Snap Screen and a 2-step drag and drop between two side-by-side apps...   This would be a nice feature for Apple to implement.

 

 

Yes, it is not the same way all people use their computers.... And i am giving you the feedback of one person who used them for 4 to 5 months, they were under the mentorship or people from two huge financial companies (as i stated) he was traveling for 2-3 or these months.
Also their is a program that makes it so you can always use swype on the iPad? that would be changing a very large part of what Apple has put into, i think this would be illegal

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #144 of 210

'Here's another iPad app from Michael Cioni's Light Iron.   This allows multiple iPads to collaborate on a film using a complimentary Mac server app:

 

 

Yes. the technology certainly exists to do this on laptops or desktops... but they never developed it for that paradigm.  If you consider why, you will quickly realize that many of the collaborators (makeup artists, costume designers, directors, lighting crew, etc.) are people with no or minimal experience/aptitude for pc-era computers.   What makes this solution workable is that it only requires an iPad and a learning curve of about 4 minutes (the length of the video).  

 

Even a genius, regardless of fields of expertise, can run this app!

 

 

Here's another app along similar lines -- an iPad clapperboard app.  A clapboard is used to identify video takes, and especially to synchronize takes when multiple cameras are filming the same event, concurrently, from different angles:

 

main_ms_image.png

http://www.movie-slate.com/

 

 

This app costs $24... there are other, similar, apps for $0-$24.

 

 

This app replaces a dedicated device costing $1,350:

 

slates.jpg

 

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/06/digital-movie-clapboard-for-ipad-replaces-1350-uni-tasker/


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 7/13/12 at 4:28pm
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post #145 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

 

 

Yes, it is not the same way all people use their computers.... And i am giving you the feedback of one person who used them for 4 to 5 months, they were under the mentorship or people from two huge financial companies (as i stated) he was traveling for 2-3 or these months.
Also their is a program that makes it so you can always use swype on the iPad? that would be changing a very large part of what Apple has put into, i think this would be illegal

 

Mmmm... AIR, Swype works within the app, not at the iOS level... point taken.  Siri, however, appears whenever a kb is displayed.


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 7/13/12 at 4:37pm
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post #146 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

This app replaces a dedicated device costing $1,350:

LL

I'm so… hang on, I'm sorry, thirteen fifty?! Wha–what would–what… It's machined plastic, some stickers, and a $3 number readout from 1978.

No wonder movies cost $200,000,000 to make.

I know I have to be missing something about modern clapboards…

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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post #147 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


I'm so… hang on, I'm sorry, thirteen fifty?! Wha–what would–what… It's machined plastic, some stickers, and a $3 number readout from 1978.
No wonder movies cost $200,000,000 to make.
I know I have to be missing something about modern clapboards…

 

That's the MS philosophy encapsulated... When you're the only game in town, you can charge whatever the market will bear -- regardless of the quality of the product.

 

Next question?

 

Edit:  Actually, the nixie tubes predate 1978 by several decades:

 

anim.gif

 

P.S.  If AI doesn't fix its smilies soon, Im a gonna' start using this.


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 7/13/12 at 4:47pm
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post #148 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

so, I am and was talking with my friend, i have a summary of what we were saying.

 

 

-it was a brutal in beginning, made himself use ipad 2 as main device to consume device

-when he did it they lacked some tech like online (aka remote simulation screened to tablet)

-cumbersome to do any word/excel/etc related work

-many websites were still not optimized for tablet

-he could survive on it for 4-5 months, didn't miss anything apart from intensive gaming.

-but believes that any tablet device is a very good compliment to desktop or laptop, but it will never replace a primary device no matter how good apps (things that replicate desktop experience)

-because restraints on screen size AND ways of impute (swype would have made it better, it is on android)

-had to use portable keyboard which worked as a stand

-can do 60% of his work on ipad vs. tablet, but could not replace completely

-streaming speeds slow compared to desktop + buffer less

-cannot not do multiple things at once (Seeing multiple programs at once)

-works as: investment background, was being mentored by men from two different multinational companies which both were financial firms

 

This is really interesting information to me because I'm still struggling with the question of whether we're seeing the death (albeit slow) of the 30-year old Mac/Win-style user experience.

 

We all seem to agree that the new style OS's will increasingly represent the bulk (or even all) of most people's computing lives. So, as devices become more powerful and the new OS's more powerful, flexible, etc. What sustainable advantages do the legacy OS's hold?

 

Here's a summation based on a reading of the thread:

 

- Display real estate

- File management

- Multiple simultaneous activities

- Text input

- Streaming speed (power)

 

Am I missing anything?

 

I have to say, based on the above list, I'm not sure there's really a great reason to keep the old-style UX around. File management's a real interesting one. Don't we all HATE the Finder? I know I do. DESPISE IT! I get that the current iOS doesn't provide nearly enough flexibility. But folder hierarchies are a nightmare to maintain. Seriously. I can't tell you how many days I'm wishing for some kind of automagic file tagging system. Maybe what the current iOS system promotes is a kind of "republic of file management systems" in which individual apps that have high file management demands devise their own solutions. Then, at some point perhaps a consensus emerges on the optimal one and it gets implemented at the OS level and used cross-app.

 

These other items seem somewhat addressable in the new UX paradigm as well.

 

So, maybe we're just gradually transitioning to this new UX paradigm, represented today by iOS/Metro and the like, that will seamlessly scale along the spectrum of power needs and device sizes, scooters to trucks if you will.

 

Honestly though, I just can't imagine a day without keyboards ;)

post #149 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Edit:  Actually, the nixie tubes predate 1978 by several decades:

LL

P.S.  If AI doesn't fix its smilies soon, Im a gonna' start using this.

Oh, that's no Nixie, that's just one of those generic seven-bar displays that you see on calculators, ovens, microwaves, and everything in the '80s because it was new (and now because it's dirt cheap and ugly).

If it was a Nixie, it might almost be worth a quarter of that price, if only for nostalgia purposes, but I don't think clapboards ever even used them in the first place.

Also, I just use Mountain/Lion's emoji anymore. lol.gif only goes so far.

💯

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #150 of 210

The best products Microsoft makes is office & Xbox360, everything else they seem to put effort into is an unfortunate waste.

post #151 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilago View Post

 

This is really interesting information to me because I'm still struggling with the question of whether we're seeing the death (albeit slow) of the 30-year old Mac/Win-style user experience.

 

We all seem to agree that the new style OS's will increasingly represent the bulk (or even all) of most people's computing lives. So, as devices become more powerful and the new OS's more powerful, flexible, etc. What sustainable advantages do the legacy OS's hold?

 

Here's a summation based on a reading of the thread:

 

- Display real estate

- File management

- Multiple simultaneous activities

- Text input

- Streaming speed (power)

 

Am I missing anything?

 

I have to say, based on the above list, I'm not sure there's really a great reason to keep the old-style UX around. File management's a real interesting one. Don't we all HATE the Finder? I know I do. DESPISE IT! I get that the current iOS doesn't provide nearly enough flexibility. But folder hierarchies are a nightmare to maintain. Seriously. I can't tell you how many days I'm wishing for some kind of automagic file tagging system. Maybe what the current iOS system promotes is a kind of "republic of file management systems" in which individual apps that have high file management demands devise their own solutions. Then, at some point perhaps a consensus emerges on the optimal one and it gets implemented at the OS level and used cross-app.

 

These other items seem somewhat addressable in the new UX paradigm as well.

 

So, maybe we're just gradually transitioning to this new UX paradigm, represented today by iOS/Metro and the like, that will seamlessly scale along the spectrum of power needs and device sizes, scooters to trucks if you will.

 

Honestly though, I just can't imagine a day without keyboards ;)

 

As to the FF (Fine Finder):  I believe that the basic constructs are in place to finally replace the Finder.  

 

Here's the big question -- why should you care where a file is stored -- as long as you can find it?  But being able to easily find a file should not require that you, the user remember the name, date, file type, application creator, etc.

 

I think the solution lies in the convergence of system (and user) generated metadata, keyword collections, smart folders and a database.

 

Oddly, the most progressive use of this, I have seen, is in Final Cut Pro X.  

 

On ingest of media, FCPX captures whatever metadata is available... camera model, serial number, f-stop, lens type, FPS, etc.  

 

In addition, FCP X can scan the ingested content and detect closeup, medium and distant shots, determine the number of people in a shot.

 

Also, FCP X can scan for video/color/sound problems such as shake, over/under exposure and background noise.

 

The results of these scans and analyses are stored in smart collections (a database implementation of OS X smart folders).

 

The user can setup his own, customized smart collections and specify multiple parameters that qualify files to be included -- from that time on, whenever a file is ingested a pointer is stored in the qualifying smart collections (database).

 

Then there are keyword collections -- the user can define custom keywords that he wants to use to identify various files.  The keywords are analogous to a filter or search term database index.  Any file can appear in multiple keyword collections.

 

Any keywords can be used in combination with smart collections to provide access in anyway that is useful to the user.

 

Everything (including uncategorized files) can be located by search...

 

And there is a hierarchy of events, smart collections and keyword collections that the user can navigate to determine how things are classified (not where they are stored).

 

Mostly, the user is not concerned where things are stored -- only how he can access them.   

 

The user can instruct FCP X to gather files together for export, backup or collaboration.

 

All this can be done without ever using the Fine Finder.

 

 

If you want to see a little of this in action, here's a short video:

 

 

BTW, There is a camera under development that streams the video as it is being shot to an iPad via WiFi.  The custom iPad app is used by an assistant director to apply metadata, keywords, and smart collection data in real time.   The video is not stored on the iPad -- only the developed metadata.  Later, when the video is ingested into FCP X, the metadata from the iPad will be combine to l=flesh out the database.

 

This eliminates most of the delay needed to classify the media after it is ingested.

 

 

Edit: FWIW, the database used by FCP X is SQLite -- equally at home on OS X and iOS.


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 7/13/12 at 8:08pm
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post #152 of 210
I'm really enjoying this discussion and direction this thread has taken in the last dozen or so posts.

I still maintain the PC will survive, as the form factor (larger real estate, power, keyboard, etc) provide power users advantages the tablet form factor will never match.

However, I think other elements of the UI we assume will never change may well change. Like the Finder. To paraphrase fictional character William Adama, sometimes we never stop to ask "why?" Why does the Finder deserve to exist, for instance? Sometimes you need to step back and look at the end goal; for instance, what do people want? They want to easily open files they saved. The folder metaphor has worked well for decades, but is there a better way? Does it deserve to survive? I don't know, but I'm glad Apple is a company that doesn't stay stuck in the past (floppy disks, optical... victims of not deserving to survive).
post #153 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

I still maintain the PC will survive, as the form factor (larger real estate, power, keyboard, etc) provide power users advantages the tablet form factor will never match.

 

Quick note on "power." It's moving to the cloud so fast. Sony just bought that gaming company Gaikai. OnLive is a domestic competitor founded by former QuickTime co-inventor Steve Perlman. Basically, it's console gaming with the console in the cloud. It just receives controller input upstream, then pushes video back. It works on all clients, from phones to PCs. And, yes, near-latency-free.

 

The point is that once you have near-latency-free display being driven from the cloud, client power becomes irrelevant. You literally just need a display and 2005-era computing power. So, all the power is in the cloud. You can theoretically render a friggin' Pixar movie in realtime on your iPhone 3GS.

 

So, it's really weird because the low-power client can have all the power in the world. I think their will still be some applications for locally powerful devices, where there's zero-tolerance for latency. But, if this cloud technology works today for console games, it's really gotta be zero tolerance. So, what are those applications? Some medical and industrial and such? Mainly highly specialized types. I can't think of too many.

 

I think the only thing in the way of this model becoming widespread, is ubiquitous, cheap broadband. But, not for much longer.

 

Bottom-line: It's hard to see how the "power" factor really stays on the "sustainable advantage" list.

post #154 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilago View Post

- Display real estate

- File management

- Multiple simultaneous activities

- Text input

- Streaming speed (power)

Well, excluding your last two points, which tablets can indeed match (for the majority of users, either currently or in the near future (5-10 years)) i believe you have very clearly summed up exactly what traditional PC's will continue to have over tablets. 

PC means personal computer.  

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PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #155 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post

I'm really enjoying this discussion and direction this thread has taken in the last dozen or so posts.
I still maintain the PC will survive, as the form factor (larger real estate, power, keyboard, etc) provide power users advantages the tablet form factor will never match.
However, I think other elements of the UI we assume will never change may well change. Like the Finder. To paraphrase fictional character William Adama, sometimes we never stop to ask "why?" Why does the Finder deserve to exist, for instance? Sometimes you need to step back and look at the end goal; for instance, what do people want? They want to easily open files they saved. The folder metaphor has worked well for decades, but is there a better way? Does it deserve to survive? I don't know, but I'm glad Apple is a company that doesn't stay stuck in the past (floppy disks, optical... victims of not deserving to survive).

 

This is a good discussion -- lots of good questions and some on-point answers... we're all guilty of flights of fancy -- but that just adds spice to the discussion...

 

I am counting on at least 5 FCP X conversions -- how many can I put you down for?

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post #156 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

Well, excluding your last two points, which tablets can indeed match (for the majority of users, either currently or in the near future (5-10 years)) i believe you have very clearly summed up exactly what traditional PC's will continue to have over tablets. 

 

Except...

 

 

- Display real estate

 

Couldn't tablets drive large and multiple displays? Especially with AirPlay like technology?

 

- File management

 

Isn't it kinda broken on the desktop as is and ripe for transformation anyway?

 

 

- Multiple simultaneous activities

 

Ok, I don't have an easy solution on this one. But, that's not to say there isn't one.

 

And either way, aren't we getting down to a pretty weak and finite set of pegs on which to hang the future of the PC?

post #157 of 210
I think the Surface would be better described as a traditional PC because Microsoft wants it to do basically everything a PC does. Also it sounds like your going to have to sit down at a desk or table to use it, the screen stands up, it has a keyboard, how is this going to work sitting in a car, or on a train, or standing up, and any of dozens of other places people are now using tablets or mobile phones?

Also, if this thing is going to have an operating system like a more traditional PC and do all these other things that old style PC's can do, then how much storage is it going to need and how long is it going to take to boot up every time you turn it on? I have both a PC and an IPad and I use my IPad 75% of the time now because I love the instant on concept, everything is instantly there, and it has amazing battery life. What is a Surface tablet going to have in the way of battery life with all these programs, keyboards etc. running on it? Also, everything I need, music, apps, pics, etc. can be stored on 16 gigs of storage on my IPad. How much storage is a Surface tablet going to need just for the programs...Windows 8, Office, Adobe Photo Shop, and all the other programs people use on there traditional PC's? Your Surface is going to have to be like a laptop with a 100 gigs of storage or more just to get started. My PC laptop has 350 gigs and it's full, mostly family photos and videos. I don't want all that stuff on a tablet I'm walking around with.
For a tablet, I want simplicity. I want only what I need for everyday use which includes only my most recent photos etc.
If I was thinking of getting a computer that does all the things Microsoft was claiming the Surface will be able to do I would rather just get a laptop, it would be less expensive. If I wanted the Surface for its size, I would rather get a MacBook Air or an Ultrabook, at least those you can type on in your lap easily and not go blind trying to do everything you do on a laptop or PC on a 10 inch screen. Imagine trying to do spreadsheets all day, or photoshopping on a 10 inch Surface tablet, you would probably be cross eyed after an hour or less.
Microsoft would have been better off marketing the Surface as the ultimate Ultrabook, a micro laptop. Better yet, increase the size and make it a 12 or 13 inch laptop with the thickness of a tablet...basically a MacBook Air with more power and even thinner...anything would be better than the idea they are pushing with the current Surface.
My family will probably always have a PC for keeping hard drives updated with family photos, movies, personal documents, school papers etc. but for everything else my family uses their phones and tablets. The simpler the better.
Microsoft, and now Android are using the concept of hoarders ( I'm sure you have seen the shows) "I MIGHT need it so I should keep it" when it comes to operating systems. The problem is that most people will never use 90% of the crap their computer can do, so why do you want it or feel the need to keep it. That's why I like IOS so much, I don't have what I don't need or want clogging up my tablet.
post #158 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilago View Post

 

Except...

 

 

 

Couldn't tablets drive large and multiple displays? Especially with AirPlay like technology?

 

 

Isn't it kinda broken on the desktop as is and ripe for transformation anyway?

 

 

 

Ok, I don't have an easy solution on this one. But, that's not to say there isn't one.

 

And either way, aren't we getting down to a pretty weak and finite set of pegs on which to hang the future of the PC?

are you joking? what do you call a tablet running multiple displays? a fail desktop.

And the file system needs refining, but no tablet has had anything close to what is needed....

 

other than that your right =.=

 

and are you saying that screen space, drastically better file organization and easy true multitasking by the computer are small things 0.o

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #159 of 210
I agree with Microsoft. When Apple started designing the iPad and then iPhone, they needed to reinvent the UI and they also needed to make things full screen to enable some nice tricks that save battery life and keep things fast. Changing the desktop UI at this point wouldnt make sense.

But as the years go on, the mobile processors are getting faster, batteries are getting better and keyboards are now getting thin enough to fit in an iPad smart cover. E.g. The surface. With that keyboard irrespective of the os the device is a tablet / laptop, it isn't a post pc device, it's just a different design. If you can then make a UI that can work well for fingers and a mouse then you definetaly aren't post pc.

I fully believe the iPad and macs will have one OS in the future. Has the low powered processors get to a high enough spec there's no reason for them not to. Apple may not say it at the moment, but that's just the same as them saying iPods and phones are best kept separate.

It's also a good thing, you can still have small apps that are best for tablets, but having the full program there if you need it will solve a lot of problems with current tablets. E.g. I recently had to write 300 words on a topic to go in a newsletter. Naturally did it in pages on my iPad on the sofa. Turns out pages for iPad doesn't have a word count. It's 2012 I have what is meant to be the best tablet, with the official word processor and it doesn't have a feature invented in the 80s, but the ui looks nice.
post #160 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

I agree with Microsoft. When Apple started designing the iPad and then iPhone, they needed to reinvent the UI and they also needed to make things full screen to enable some nice tricks that save battery life and keep things fast. Changing the desktop UI at this point wouldnt make sense.
But as the years go on, the mobile processors are getting faster, batteries are getting better and keyboards are now getting thin enough to fit in an iPad smart cover. E.g. The surface. With that keyboard irrespective of the os the device is a tablet / laptop, it isn't a post pc device, it's just a different design. If you can then make a UI that can work well for fingers and a mouse then you definetaly aren't post pc.
I fully believe the iPad and macs will have one OS in the future. Has the low powered processors get to a high enough spec there's no reason for them not to. Apple may not say it at the moment, but that's just the same as them saying iPods and phones are best kept separate.
It's also a good thing, you can still have small apps that are best for tablets, but having the full program there if you need it will solve a lot of problems with current tablets. E.g. I recently had to write 300 words on a topic to go in a newsletter. Naturally did it in pages on my iPad on the sofa. Turns out pages for iPad doesn't have a word count. It's 2012 I have what is meant to be the best tablet, with the official word processor and it doesn't have a feature invented in the 80s, but the ui looks nice.

 

So what did you do?

 

BTW, I was able to determine that your post, above, meets the 300 word criteria.

 

It took about 10 seconds -- and used a technique that has been around for centuries.

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