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Microsoft says Apple's 'post-PC' view is wrong, claims it's a 'PC+' era - Page 2

post #41 of 210

It would all be so much convincing if Microsoft had actually shipped this product — and sold a ton. Then there might be something to back up their opinion.

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AppleInsider = Apple-in-cider. It's a joke!

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post #42 of 210

lol.gif

Quote:
"Apple makes great hardware," Turner said. "The reality is in the OS we see things differently. They've talked about it being the post-PC era, they talk about the tablet and PC being different, the reality in our world is that we think that's completely incorrect.

 

Well.. when your Surface sells 15 million each quarter then you make a claim that your approach the correct one.

post #43 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Maybe Microsoft can explain why Windows Tablet PCs haven't been a mainstream hit since the early 1990s.
I used Windows tablets going all the way back to Windows 3.11 running on 386 tablets. They just put a new coat of paint on Windows and the Tablet PC and are trying to convince you it's now PC+?

 

 

When the hell was a Windows tablet ever a hit?

post #44 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanada View Post

If Apple got serious and produced a real Office Suite comparable to MS Office (iWork doesn't count) but lean, mean and full of features, Microsoft would be screwed.

If I was a Microsoft investor, I would be seriously concerned. Don't let MS turn into RIM.

 

Not so sure about that. The vast majority of people use productivity software in the office and the vast majority of offices using MS Office.

 

Apple's iWork suite, even if it attained feature parity with MS Office, has a drastically different user interface. Most would argue that it's better, but for the masses that use MS Office every day, it's difficult or impossible to justify the learning curve for a product suite that's not compatible with the document formats they use at work. Yes, I realize there's some level of compatibility. But anyone doing extensive editing on one platform will wind up needing to do a lot of cleanup work when exporting and importing to the other. Believe me, I've tried.

 

Incidentally nothing would make me happier than to see Microsoft follow RIM down the toilet bowl. They both deserve it. My sympathies are limited to any talented employees that get dragged down by the ineptitude of the companies' executives.

post #45 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by filburt View Post

I would like to give Microsoft a benefit of the doubt, but they are really doing it wrong.
Apple phrased "post-PC" after iPad became a huge success. Microsoft, on the other hand, is using "PC+" before delivering results.

 

That's incorrect. Steve Jobs was talking about "post-PC" devices before the iPad and as far back as 2007. I remember he talked about "post-PC" during his interview in D5 conference with Bill Gates (available in iTunes by the way). I remember when he said it Walt asked him not to say "post-PC" because some people get upset when they hear the term and send him angry emails.

post #46 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix View Post

I do like Microsoft's incorporation of a PC based processor into their Surface which will run PC software and have usable USB ports.  In my business, this is a better and more useful direction for a tablet, showing that the iPad is really just for games and internet access and not work.  I see a place for both.

 

It's easy to yearn for full desktop power in a thin and light portable. But I would curb my enthusiasm until they have a shipping product and we have the opportunity to evaluate its performance against battery life, size/weight, reliability, cost and usability. Microsoft have been the Masters of Vaporware for 30 years.

post #47 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

the best thing about this debate is that the answer will be decided in the marektplace over the next year. and we'll actually see who was right/wrong.

 

 

and we'll actually see who was right/wrong, AGAIN.

post #48 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
MS wins in volume on "traditional PC's"...
Are traditional PCs not the same all purpose PCs? If so, then why obfuscate your point? if not, what's the difference? Seems to me you are assuming that if it's running Windows it's good and if it's not it's not good. You even solidify that comment by categorizing the iPad as being just for entertainment and falling back into the pejorative "toy" category.

an ipad has a lot less productivity than a PC currently has.  And no, anything that is a desktop that doesn't run iOS/Android/other mobile OSes.That means windows, many versions linux, Mac OS_.  

 

 

thats currently a pretty backed up fact.... Once a tablet can take over 90%+ of productivity jobs (like powerpoint, word, excel, multi moniters, etc) than i am willing to merge the two together.... Leaving it as Phones and all the other personal devices.\

 

And for the windows comment, i grew up using Mac OS9/X... i currently use windows 60-70% of time, linux probably 20% and Mac OSX the rest.

 

also i want to say i have a executive functioning problem which makes it harder for me to get the ideas from my head to writing or speech.  This can make it hard for things like this, if you need clarification of what i am trying to say please ask :)

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

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PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #49 of 210

Turner calls the newly-designed operating system a "game changer."

 

Like the Zune was a game-changer????

 

But he does have a point. I mean, Apple have been wrong on most of their other predictions... 

post #50 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Absolutely... espcially given that 'some' insist on including iPads sales when quoting Apple's total 'Personal Computers' sold each quarter.
PC+ is a far more accurate description of the current computing landscape.

 

Current yes, but Microsoft is wrong.

 

Steve Jobs never said we're currently in the Post PC era, he said we're entering it. 

 

Typical of Microsoft to only see what's in front of them and not see what's coming around the corner.

Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #51 of 210

A horse by committee turns into a camel. You can't get ahead looking in the rearview mirror. 

post #52 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roozda View Post

Turner calls the newly-designed operating system a "game changer."

 

Like the Zune was a game-changer????

 

But he does have a point. I mean, Apple have been wrong on most of their other predictions... 

What about the Kin? wasn't that also a huge game changer *chuckles*

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

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PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

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post #53 of 210
Here's Kevin Turner again, in 2009, talking about the unprecedented, blockbuster Laptop Lose . . . er . . . Hunters . . . campaign.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2009/07/apple-demanded-microsoft-to-stop-its-laptop-hunters-ads/

Worked out great, didn't it?
post #54 of 210

ALL SPIN... from both Apple and Microsoft.

 

The truth is closer to Jobs' car/truck analogy.

 

There are machines we need for heavy lifting and those we need for everything else. PCs & Macs are mainly for heavy lifting, ie work, ie they're trucks. They're not going away any time soon. We'll just be using cars a lot more often.

 

"Post PC" is silly because it implies PCs will become a relic of the past, like VCRs, when in fact we still need PCs for heavy lifting.

 

"PC+" is silly because it implies that PCs are still the center of most people's computing universe, when clearly that's shifted to smartphones and tablets.

 

Both terms serve the specific agendas of the companies promoting them.

 

If 10 (or 5) years ago, Apple owned 90% of the PC market, do you think they'd have come up with "Post PC"?

 

Also this...

 

Both companies are moving toward a more unified OS user-experience.

 

We all know how much OS X is borrowing from iOS. The main difference is that Apple, in the way Apple uniquely does, made a clean break from their legacy OS to truly reimagine an OS for mobile devices. When iOS started tearing up the market, Microsoft said: Holy cow! We need a next-generation OS for mobile too! But, instead of completely breaking from Windows, which Microsoft very rarely does, they said: Let's leverage our massive PC OS market share to the max in order to launch our new mobile OS. Hence, Windows 8 with the Metro shell. BTW, its siblings, Windows 8 RT and Windows Phone, are in many ways clean breaks from the legacy OS.

 

Both strategies have virtues and liabilities. But in actuality, these companies don't see the world very differently and both are pushing next-generation mobile OS's while trying to build continuity to their legacy OS's.

 

The main difference between Apple and Microsoft is the assets they had in place before embarking on their strategies. Microsoft had the massive Windows franchise. And Apple had the iPod/iTunes and a visionary leader.

post #55 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

Once a tablet can take over 90%+ of productivity jobs (like powerpoint, word, excel, multi moniters, etc) than i am willing to merge the two together.... Leaving it as Phones and all the other personal devices.

 

This is where your line of thinking is off... It has nothing to do with 90% of productivity... If the iPad can replace 95% of what most people use computers for, then it'll sell. A vast majority of people don't use computers for productivity or for very little. This is why Microsoft is wrong and why they've been wrong when it comes to the consumer market; very few consumers need anything like Office. Very few consumers want to deal with all the complexities that come with computing. Steve Jobs knew this. iOS is the next evolution of computing. Does that mean there won't be desktop PCs anymore? Absolutely not, I couldn't live without mine, that's for sure. But I also have an iPad that I use all the time.

Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #56 of 210
post #57 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Here's Kevin Turner again, in 2009, talking about the unprecedented, blockbuster Laptop Lose . . . er . . . Hunters . . . campaign.
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2009/07/apple-demanded-microsoft-to-stop-its-laptop-hunters-ads/
Worked out great, didn't it?

I completely forgot about those ads. Not exactly a successful campaign. Now even people that have never used a Mac seem to be familiar with the Get A Mac campaign if they are from a country that ran them.

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #58 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix View Post

I do like Microsoft's incorporation of a PC based processor into their Surface which will run PC software and have usable USB ports.  In my business, this is a better and more useful direction for a tablet, showing that the iPad is really just for games and internet access and not work.  I see a place for both.

 

Really? I hear this a lot and yet, no one has remarked on how wonderful their Tablet PCs are? I can't quite figure out why that is?

 

Why don't you just get a netbook? Not sure what advantages having a device like the Surface will be?

 

People don't seem to understand, that Windows is Windows... form factor isn't going to help make the experience any better or different. Microsoft knows this. They've tried several times; Tablet PC, UMPC, and Netbooks... While netbooks were successful for a moment, none of these devices made using Windows a joy... That is to say, these form factors are not great for desktop based operating systems for one simple reason, the screen is too small to be practical for productivity using a window based OS.

 

The iPad didn't become popular only because of its form, it sells well because of its easy to use.

Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #59 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

 

This is where your line of thinking is off... It has nothing to do with 90% of productivity... If the iPad can replace 95% of what most people use computers for, then it'll sell. A vast majority of people don't use computers for productivity or for very little. This is why Microsoft is wrong and why they've been wrong when it comes to the consumer market; very few consumers need anything like Office. Very few consumers want to deal with all the complexities that come with computing. Steve Jobs knew this. iOS is the next evolution of computing. Does that mean there won't be desktop PCs anymore? Absolutely not, I couldn't live without mine, that's for sure. But I also have an iPad that I use all the time.

could offices across america the world replace their computer with iPads and get as much done in the same time?

based on everything i have seen and heard the answer in no.  The closest device to being able to fill that role however, is the surface.... (the x86-64 version)

 

your statement is what i am talking about.  you don't NEED your iPad, its "extra" but you (and most others) need a "real PC" as some people call them.  I just say desktop/notebook.  

 

That being said one of my friend in Singapore went a month or two only using his iPhone, iPod Touch and iPad, i will ask him to write something about what he could and couldn't do :)!

 

what i was trying to say is until Tablets can FULLY REPLACE DESKTOPS FOR 90-95%+ people than I will not consider them in the same class as more traditional PC's (desktops, notebooks).

 

I think the only tablet that has a chance of filling both roles right now is actually the surface, mostly because you can use it is a tablet and than turn it into a notebook and have access to full versions of MS office/other productivity software.  

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #60 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

Thats not the point.... the point is that the PC is not going away, instead PC's are being supplemented by tablets.

MS is right... its simple, tell me what "PC" stands for.... now tell me what a tablet is... or are tablets not personal?

 

Well, it's been *accepted* that "PC" specifically refers to a "personal computer running Windows", not Linux, not Mac OS, but Windows. Yes, it also stands for the more generic phrase "Personal Computer", but that's not what we're talking about here.

 

When speaking of "Personal Computers", yes tablets are more personal than boxy-desktop or laptop computers ever were, so it's an ironic situation. But you need to look at the meaning behind both Steve Jobs' statement and Steve Ballmer's statement. Both were referring to "Windows PCs", not just personal computers in general. The PC era is dying.

post #61 of 210
Once again Microsoft doesn't understand.

When Apple says "Post PC" they mean that people's stuff no longer lives on their computer. The cloud has replaced the PC as the storage medium. The tool to access that data can be a phone, tablet or a traditional computer. It really doesn't matter. The tool no longer dominates the discussion.
post #62 of 210
I love how they go through the keynote and read all the words they want their product to be from the autocue and then when it comes to using the product:



They talk about the the pen ignoring your palm and during the demo, as the guy tries to write on the screen, it zooms all over the place.

Oh but they went to all the lengths of testing the closing sound of the stand in an anechoic chamber so the user would at least know when they get so pissed off with it and shut the whole thing down, they have a really solid product that will stand up to a rage-induced wall collision.

Microsoft has been in this industry for decades, why do they still ignore the fundamentals?

If you can't demo a product without saying a single word and not convince someone to buy it, your product isn't good enough. Apple is often seen as a marketing company with little substance but it's the exact opposite. The people at Apple have the confidence to stand behind their product and their marketing isn't masking the truth, at worst it exaggerates it. The marketing from PC manufacturers is a lie and a very blatant lie.

The Windows 8 RT model will supposedly start at $600 to compete with the $400 iPad. The x86 model is supposed to cost in the region of $1000. An 11" Air costs $1000 so a 10.6" x86 tablet at $1000 isn't as bad as it sounds at first as it should run normal software but I think it will be hard to convince people to part with $1000 for a tablet form factor.

This x86 tablet is obviously the PC+ and they are arguing over semantics with Post-PC vs PC+. The iPad is such a dramatic shift away from what we know as a PC experience that it is much more of a transition than an enhancement.

Microsoft is trying to converge both into one device and I generally like that idea. I think what they did with the keyboard cover is great and much better than Apple's keyboard dock, which you can't really take with you easily. It doesn't add up to a compelling product though and that's not so much in the concept but their implementation of it.
post #63 of 210
Jobs was absolutely correct; MS is wrong. The post-PC world is mobile, always connected to the internet, instant on, no app management, and simple enough for a child or grandparent to understand. It is not another form factor for a desktop or a laptop. It's a different mindset. Most of the major tethers of the PC era are gone, as in the mainframe era before it.

Mobile has overtaken PC's as the larger market. The reality now is *not* that we are in a PC+ environment where PC's are supplemented by mobile, we are in a *mobile* environment that is supplemented by PC's.

The number of people I see doing most of their computing on their phones and iPads in business is stunning. They drop to their PCs for some part of the day, but that part is getting smaller and smaller.

MS is at real risk of implosion in the next year. If Surface fails, and Win 8 is received like Vista, they will be crushed in the stock market. A friend of mine who is a lifelong windows user did a test with his teenaged children on Windows 8. They couldn't figure out how to do some very basic stuff. They all hated it. I never would have seen this coming. He has traded his Windows Phone (stylus) for an iPhone, picked up an iPad, but still uses PC's for doing 3D animation. Dell gives him $5k laptops for free because he is that good, and now he hates Windows 8 passionately. Very, very bad sign for MS.
post #64 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I love how they go through the keynote and read all the words they want their product to be from the autocue and then when it comes to using the product:
They talk about the the pen ignoring your palm and during the demo, as the guy tries to write on the screen, it zooms all over the place.
Oh but they went to all the lengths of testing the closing sound of the stand in an anechoic chamber so the user would at least know when they get so pissed off with it and shut the whole thing down, they have a really solid product that will stand up to a rage-induced wall collision.
Microsoft has been in this industry for decades, why do they still ignore the fundamentals?

 

It is unfinished product and it will be until there is CTL+ALT+DEL buttons!! Every Windows machine needs CTL ALT DEL! lol.gif

post #65 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by freediverx View Post

 

 

and we'll actually see who was right/wrong, AGAIN.

yeah, good point.

post #66 of 210
OK this is Lenovo's laptop/tablet hybrid. Honestly who would ever use this as a tablet? It looks heavy, bulky and uncomfortable to hold as the back is the keyboard.

when-open-the-thinkpad-acts-just-like-a-normal-ultrabook.jpg

flipping-the-screen-over-disables-the-keyboard-so-you-dont-accidentally-type-something.jpg

heres-the-tablet-view.jpg

To me this has fail written all over it. I just can't imagine myself on a bus/plane or at the park/beach reading a book with one of these things.
post #67 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I love how they go through the keynote and read all the words they want their product to be from the autocue and then when it comes to using the product:They talk about the the pen ignoring your palm and during the demo, as the guy tries to write on the screen, it zooms all over the place.
Oh but they went to all the lengths of testing the closing sound of the stand in an anechoic chamber so the user would at least know when they get so pissed off with it and shut the whole thing down, they have a really solid product that will stand up to a rage-induced wall collision.
Microsoft has been in this industry for decades, why do they still ignore the fundamentals?
If you can't demo a product without saying a single word and not convince someone to buy it, your product isn't good enough. Apple is often seen as a marketing company with little substance but it's the exact opposite. The people at Apple have the confidence to stand behind their product and their marketing isn't masking the truth, at worst it exaggerates it. The marketing from PC manufacturers is a lie and a very blatant lie.
The Windows 8 RT model will supposedly start at $600 to compete with the $400 iPad. The x86 model is supposed to cost in the region of $1000. An 11" Air costs $1000 so a 10.6" x86 tablet at $1000 isn't as bad as it sounds at first as it should run normal software but I think it will be hard to convince people to part with $1000 for a tablet form factor.
This x86 tablet is obviously the PC+ and they are arguing over semantics with Post-PC vs PC+. The iPad is such a dramatic shift away from what we know as a PC experience that it is much more of a transition than an enhancement.
Microsoft is trying to converge both into one device and I generally like that idea. I think what they did with the keyboard cover is great and much better than Apple's keyboard dock, which you can't really take with you easily. It doesn't add up to a compelling product though and that's not so much in the concept but their implementation of it.
The keyboard cover looks cool but I'm reserving judgement until someone actually uses it and tells us what it's like to type on. But for me using a hardware keyboard with a tablet seems weird. I guess I'd rather use a laptop then. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple looked into something like the touch cover but decided against it in the end To me the touch cover comes off as a bit gimmicky and I don't think Apple is into gimmicky.
post #68 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix View Post

I do like Microsoft's incorporation of a PC based processor into their Surface which will run PC software and have usable USB ports.  In my business, this is a better and more useful direction for a tablet, showing that the iPad is really just for games and internet access and not work.  I see a place for both.

Mike you are stuck in the past what is your business? The only thing preventing an iPad from accomplishing any of those "useful" tasks that you "need" are developers who have written the software and manufacturers who have made the devices that communicate via WiFi and Bluetooth instead of USB. There is nothing but a desire to hold onto old tech that is holding an iPad back from the "serious" computing that any other $600 PC can do.

post #69 of 210
Oh and here's another Lenovo lt that the Apple haters swear up and down looks nothing like a Mac.

KB_TP_3_1020_gallery_post.jpg

Why is it so hard for people to admit that a lot of PC laptops/Ultrabooks take their design cues from the MacBook Pro/Air these days? It's so obvious. And has nothing to do with whether Apple invented something or not (i.e. wedge shape, chicklit keyboard), it's about the finished product, all th design components put together.
post #70 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

 

Really? I hear this a lot and yet, no one has remarked on how wonderful their Tablet PCs are? I can't quite figure out why that is?

 

Why don't you just get a netbook? Not sure what advantages having a device like the Surface will be?

 

People don't seem to understand, that Windows is Windows... form factor isn't going to help make the experience any better or different. Microsoft knows this. They've tried several times; Tablet PC, UMPC, and Netbooks... While netbooks were successful for a moment, none of these devices made using Windows a joy... That is to say, these form factors are not great for desktop based operating systems for one simple reason, the screen is too small to be practical for productivity using a window based OS.

 

The iPad didn't become popular only because of its form, it sells well because of its easy to use.

 

What I like about the Surface Pro is that all my music production software and graphics apps will work on it.  NONE of them will work on an iPad.  I could care less about the bells and whistles and fancy streamers hanging off the handlebars of an iPad if it doesn't do what I need it to do.

 

The mistake Microsoft is making is trying to compete with Apple in the iOS space.  Forget that, leave it to Apple.  Microsoft needs to focus on the professional market.  The rest will follow when they realize how much more they can do with a fully functional tablet.  Those that don't need it can keep their iPads.

post #71 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix View Post

What I like about the Surface Pro is that all my music production software and graphics apps will work on it.  NONE of them will work on an iPad.  I could care less about the bells and whistles and fancy streamers hanging off the handlebars of an iPad if it doesn't do what I need it to do.

Is the reason those apps don't work inherent to the iPad's form factor or because the developers haven't written the software for it yet? I'm inclined to lean towards the latter. I foresee more production Apps showing up over time on iOS when people finally start figuring out how to implement the advanced features for a simple UI.
post #72 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

Thats not the point.... the point is that the PC is not going away, instead PC's are being supplemented by tablets.

MS is right... its simple, tell me what "PC" stands for.... now tell me what a tablet is... or are tablets not personal?

 

 

What "PC" stands for is not the point -- it's just a name that happened to stick at the time. Of course tablets are personal -- more personal than "PC"s. Or do you think "PostModern" people aren't really modern with a small 'm', but kind of primitive? (well, now that I mention it, ....hmmm? ;) )

 

The idea behind the name "personal computer" might have been to denote that one person sat at it, at a desk, to operate it, if not to own it. But they haven't really reached penetration levels of one per person; they are usually shared, such as between members of a household. PostPC devices will however easily reach penetration of one per person for much of the world, if not more than one per person (I have both an iPod touch and an iPad, while I share my Mac with my family). They are more personal because of the way you create, publish, carry and share your own data where ever you go, repurposing it in ever more unique ways.

 

No, the PC is not going away; but I would contend that, actually, PostPC devices will be supplemented by PCs. A subtle difference, but a difference nevertheless, and one that symbolizes the "PostPC" era. For many young people, this is already a reality. This is the difference that is lost on MS. It thinks it can automatically catch up and recapture this divide just by slapping the word "Windows" on everything; thereby denying there is any such notion as "PostPC", or negating it if it catches hold.

 

However, MS tacitly begins to acknowledge the notion when it creates Metro and mumbles, that OK, maybe, just maybe there are people who would go for some kind of ultra portable device which kinda sorta resembles a tablet if we get to add a built-in keyboard, a stylus and call it Surface for Windows RT. Only, that scares them because they know they can't compete with Apple in the touch/ARM sphere and have to push everyone toward the "full" Windows experience which is declining in sales precisely because of this PostPC phenomenon no one wants to acknowledge. Vicious circle, or what?

 

So, Apple is right. And, no, it's not simple. Because, for one thing, if everything's really a PC after all, then the iPad really, really does need to be counted in computer sales by any and every reckoning, and not just in order to logically anticipate business opportunities for computer companies who are bent on denying it to their own detriment. So, as Gruber said, "MS is caught between a rock and a hardware".


Edited by krabbelen - 7/12/12 at 7:29pm
post #73 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Has Ballmer commented on whether a tablet is a PC or not? If not I can see that coming once they sell a few ... that will be the moment Apple can give in and agree ... then post the Apple sales data for 'PCs' (Macs + iPads).

 

in the Oriface announcement preso they called thr ARM/RT version a tablet... But called the Intel version a PC... Consistently!

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post #74 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigmamatic View Post

Microsoft is great at compromising. Compromising leads to watered down end products. Case in point: Microsoft's entire history. Until MS decides to take risks, REAL risks, and quit compromising they will always be second tier. Even when they were on top it was with a second tier, inferior product.
No surprises here.

If putting Ballmer in charge and leaving him there for 10+ years isn't a real risk, I don't know what is.

post #75 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanada View Post

If Apple got serious and produced a real Office Suite comparable to MS Office (iWork doesn't count) but lean, mean and full of features, Microsoft would be screwed.

If I was a Microsoft investor, I would be seriously concerned. Don't let MS turn into RIM.

 

I disagree... iWork does count and satisfies the WP and SS needs of most people --- certainly not the accounting department, but most common needs of most people.  

 

We have 5 people in our household -- 2 adults and 3 teens.  We. Have a typical mixture of homework, church reports, soccer schedules, investment/tax spreadsheets...  We have no Windows or Office software on any of our Macs.

 

We don't need or want Office -- it is very liberating!

 

I think MS has already missed its opportunity to bring Office into the post-PCM era.

"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

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"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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post #76 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix View Post

The mistake Microsoft is making is trying to compete with Apple in the iOS space.  Forget that, leave it to Apple.  Microsoft needs to focus on the professional market.  The rest will follow when they realize how much more they can do with a fully functional tablet.  Those that don't need it can keep their iPads.

 

The mistake that Microsoft and you are making is failing to realize that the opposite has already proven to be the case:

 

People who were brainwashed for decades into thinking that they had to have the "professional" solution and "full experience" that Windows claimed to offer, have suddenly started to wake up and feel encouraged that this is not in fact the case. They are beginning to feel encouraged and empowered and to actually enjoy computing once again.

 

Young people and old people and businesses and schools are buying iPads by the truckload, simply because they offer just the right capabilities (and new capabilities) with a whole lot more ease and productivity. Whole skill sets and sets of tasks and jobs to be done are going over to iPad: because iPad can connect to MS Exchange Server, can handle proprietary business apps and data connections, can handle stock taking, can handle survey taking and questionnaires, can handle teaching and learning requirements, can handle media creation and presentation, can handle PoS, can handle medical and legal briefing, can handle management and administration... and can do new things to boot (such as replace pilot charts). And all this with an ease of use and intuitiveness that puts generations of Windows computing to shame.

 

Another mistake is to think that the rest will follow the professional market. The state of Apple rather implies the opposite. And those that think they need a "fully functional tablet" a la the MS definition (because MS can't get their ARM tablet and touch OS to be functional) can check out the MacBook Air. But you'll begin to see all this when you finally get your Surface Pro for Windows 8, if it ever goes beyond a "reference design".


Edited by krabbelen - 7/12/12 at 7:30pm
post #77 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

Thats not the point.... the point is that the PC is not going away, instead PC's are being supplemented by tablets.

MS is right... its simple, tell me what "PC" stands for.... now tell me what a tablet is... or are tablets not personal?
I will actually agree with you. However that's based on this exact moment in time. The fact is that the post-PC era is upon us and just because at this specific moment in time the PCs still look viable as opposed to being the truck they are soon to become doesn't mean that we're not in the new era. You just have to see that it is coming. Look at the trends. It's clear that tablets - I mean iPads - are the next dominant platform for end user computing.
post #78 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

an ipad has a lot less productivity than a PC currently has.  And no, anything that is a desktop that doesn't run iOS/Android/other mobile OSes.That means windows, many versions linux, Mac OS_.  


thats currently a pretty backed up fact.... Once a tablet can take over 90%+ of productivity jobs (like powerpoint, word, excel, multi moniters, etc) than i am willing to merge the two together.... Leaving it as Phones and all the other personal devices.\

And for the windows comment, i grew up using Mac OS9/X... i currently use windows 60-70% of time, linux probably 20% and Mac OSX the rest.

also i want to say i have a executive functioning problem which makes it harder for me to get the ideas from my head to writing or speech.  This can make it hard for things like this, if you need clarification of what i am trying to say please ask 1smile.gif
Your whole premise is based on a definition of "productivity" being PowerPoint, Excel, Word. That's relevant in the PC era, but peoples' computing needs in the post PC era are quite different. Posting to FB and Twitter. Sharing photos and videos. Carrying their media library around. These are the post PC "productivity" behaviors.
post #79 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix View Post

The mistake Microsoft is making is trying to compete with Apple in the iOS space.  Forget that, leave it to Apple.  Microsoft needs to focus on the professional market.  The rest will follow when they realize how much more they can do with a fully functional tablet.  Those that don't need it can keep their iPads.
You fail to realize that the world has changed. People don't look to their corporate IT anymore for technology. They already buy better technology for themselves. The consumerisation of IT has been in full swing for some years now. Microsoft is increasingly irrelevant as a purchasing decision in the consumer space, and corporate IT will adapt. Just will take them awhile. Why do you think you still see Blackberries? You won't in 3 years. MS will get more time, but in 10 years the landscape doesn't look to favor them.
post #80 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by focher View Post

You fail to realize that the world has changed. People don't look to their corporate IT anymore for technology. They already buy better technology for themselves. The consumerisation of IT has been in full swing for some years now. Microsoft is increasingly irrelevant as a purchasing decision in the consumer space, and corporate IT will adapt. Just will take them awhile. Why do you think you still see Blackberries? You won't in 3 years. MS will get more time, but in 10 years the landscape doesn't look to favor them.

That might be true in your neck of the woods, but corporate IT departments still have a ton of control in many companies. In some companies, they have almost unlimited control over purchasing decisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

in the Oriface announcement preso they called thr ARM/RT version a tablet... But called the Intel version a PC... Consistently!

I can see how that makes sense from the perspective of their market positioning. Keep in mind:

1. Their Intel version is meant to compete against the MBA while their ARM version competes against the iPad (that is, if they ever really make it to market).

2. MS would clearly like for iPads to not be considered PCs.

Combine those two facts and calling the Intel tablet a PC and the ARM tablet a tablet makes a lot of sense.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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