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Microsoft says Apple's 'post-PC' view is wrong, claims it's a 'PC+' era - Page 3

post #81 of 210

Microsoft vision of PC+ is so wrong at multiple level...

 

Apps on mobile device need to be redesign and simplify to make good use of their touch input and screen size. Microsoft has try before to put Windows UI (WinCE) on a phone or PDA and failed. Now they try the absolute opposites bring back their Metro UI to desktop OS and force to merge Mobile and Desktop into a unified UI

 

I wonder how even the Pro (x86) version of Surface can be a PC+ experience, Office and much of traditional Windows apps are barely usable on Sub 13inch screen, even worst on 16:9 ratio display with all the ugly inchthicktitlebar/menuinallwindows/newrubanthing/toolbar/malwaresearchbar UI. How this UI fiesta can be usable on a tiny 10 inch tablet is beyond me.

 

MetroUI on desktop is not a better idea. I've tried Windows8 preview on a 27inch screen, among all that mouse-emulating-touch-input-non-sense UI the drag-from-top-to-down-quitting-gesture is the biggest atrocity. You can't unified big display keyboard & mouse PC and mobile touchscreen into one UI.

 

Surface and Windows 8 looks more like myfirstsony PC or a secondary PC than a credible Pro desktop PC replacement. If this is the Microsoft vision of the PC evolution, sound more like a PC Minus to me. 


Edited by BigMac2 - 7/12/12 at 8:46pm
post #82 of 210

Yeah, their philosophy has work well for them in the past. ;-)  

 

The personal computer idea is fading quickly.  The tablet technically is a computational device like the desktop and laptop but adaptable to the person and not the person to the device. Typing isn't a natural thing.  We have to learn to type.  Using gestures and speaking to your device is natural.  Sure, Windows 8 Surface device can do both and so can iPads with wireless keyboards.  The idea is that tablets are transitional to not needing a keyboard at all, hence Siri.  When I'm driving I cannot type or use gestures so speaking is the most natural.  Whether that's to my iPhone or the built-in system in the vehicle it doesn't matter.  

 

Microsoft is just trying to make Windows relevant which no one can blame them for.  That is their downfall though.  Is the computer in the car a personal computer?  How about the microchip in my microwave, refrigerator, toys, printer, television, etc?  Those all must be personal computers.  Especially with a television as I can now do many of the things only a PC could do just a few years ago.  I can browse the web, use apps, and watch TV all without external devices.  It isn't just a screen with a receiver anymore.

 

Apple has gotten it right.  Microsoft is the dinosaur.  They should have just agreed with Apple and moved on.  They look foolish branding PC+.  Nice!

post #83 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

And if Apple made it have backwards compatibility with old file types... that is the real problem i think....

and MS office is so entrenched.... imagine if RIM had phones with 10 year contracts..... and no way to terminate early....

aside from that it would be great!!! (aka once if took 5-10+ years to grow)


Files types. Backwards-compatibility. Open source, or at least open formats, or we're so screwed.

Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

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Social Capitalist, dreamer and wise enough to know I'm never going to grow up anyway... so not trying anymore.

 

http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/7-high-school-girls-are-kickstarting-their-awa...

Reply
post #84 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by freediverx View Post

Not so sure about that. The vast majority of people use productivity software in the office and the vast majority of offices using MS Office.

Apple's iWork suite, even if it attained feature parity with MS Office, has a drastically different user interface. Most would argue that it's better, but for the masses that use MS Office every day, it's difficult or impossible to justify the learning curve for a product suite that's not compatible with the document formats they use at work. Yes, I realize there's some level of compatibility. But anyone doing extensive editing on one platform will wind up needing to do a lot of cleanup work when exporting and importing to the other. Believe me, I've tried.

Incidentally nothing would make me happier than to see Microsoft follow RIM down the toilet bowl. They both deserve it. My sympathies are limited to any talented employees that get dragged down by the ineptitude of the companies' executives.

MS Office is not even compatible with itself and not long ago a document with more than a few pages would get instable after a while.
And belief me I tried to use it, because it was required.
Good riddance I would say.

J.
post #85 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

Ugh! Watch the clumsy intro to the Surface....I say again, Ugh! 1smile.gif MS is stuck in the 90's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jozTK-MqEXQ
Ha, I started watching that video and got as far as the "awesome" hardware Microsoft makes. They are praising their mice and keyboards. They are praising their XBox which has had massive failures on all models. And now they want us to believe their tablets are going to be awesome?

He he. Poor deluded fools.
post #86 of 210
Come on Microsoft, just face reality : on a tablet, you can forget about the file system, which is transparent to the user. No more multiwindow environment (hard to admit, when your flagship product is called "Windows" ...). keyboard is dematerialized, mouse no longer needed ... That's it ... Simplicity ...
post #87 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix View Post

I do like Microsoft's incorporation of a PC based processor into their Surface which will run PC software and have usable USB ports.  In my business, this is a better and more useful direction for a tablet, showing that the iPad is really just for games and internet access and not work.  I see a place for both.

I think it just depends on what you do. I rarely use my MacBookPro anymore and my iPad exclusively for business.

post #88 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernSoul35 View Post

It's not a Post-PC...it's a PC+

 

 

It's not a car...it's a Buggy+
It's not a lightbulb...it's a Candle+
It's not glass...it's Sand+
 
heh...this is fun! I should be in marketing. 

Good one NorthernSoul35. This naming strategy gives the PC industry plenty of scope for imaginative and informative names in the future too.

 

Maybe we will have PC++, PC+++ and then PC++++++ devices. Or maybe we could have the PC+-!#@% devices running Windows 86 with Maxwell Smart promoting it. But then again consumers might prefer names like PC-, PC-- and PC----- devices. The mind boggles!

post #89 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

could offices across america the world replace their computer with iPads and get as much done in the same time?
based on everything i have seen and heard the answer in no.  The closest device to being able to fill that role however, is the surface.... (the x86-64 version)

your statement is what i am talking about.  you don't NEED your iPad, its "extra" but you (and most others) need a "real PC" as some people call them.  I just say desktop/notebook.  

That being said one of my friend in Singapore went a month or two only using his iPhone, iPod Touch and iPad, i will ask him to write something about what he could and couldn't do 1smile.gif!

what i was trying to say is until Tablets can FULLY REPLACE DESKTOPS FOR 90-95%+ people than I will not consider them in the same class as more traditional PC's (desktops, notebooks).

I think the only tablet that has a chance of filling both roles right now is actually the surface, mostly because you can use it is a tablet and than turn it into a notebook and have access to full versions of MS office/other productivity software.  

Tablets do not need to be considered in the "same class" as PCs or Macs for us to be talking about the "PostPC era". Who ever said anything about them being in the same class?

They don't even have to do many of the same things, just a few the things that we do a lot. Remember, Jobs said they don't have to do everything, just a few things really well, a few things better than PCs.

Tablets topped that expectation of Jobs when developers started to come up with things that people never envisaged, things that people did NOT do previously on the PC.

The point about the PostPC era is the MINDSHARE, not how many traditional PC tasks are now done on a tablet instead. But you might be surprised, many people with iPads use them for an awful lot of their daily tasks -- in fact they do a lot more computing than they did before when the PC collected dust in the corner, because the iPad is a more suitable device for them.

And that's it, you could measure Mindshare by looking at a person's computing time, if you like. Not what heavy lifting he doesn't do on his iPad or how it doesn't replace his PC for those few heavy lifting tasks he still uses his PC for.

Rather, look at how it is very likely, soon if not already, that a person who has an iPad spends 51% or more of his computing time on the iPad vs his PC. This is very easy to imagine, because he takes his iPad with him everywhere he goes -- to meetings, on the train, to the coffee shop, to bed, etc. So, forget the measure of "90-95%" of all conceivable computing tasks; where did that come from?

So, let's imagine for a moment that an average iPad owner uses his iPad for 51+% of his "computing" time, no matter what the task. And use of the iPad probably extends his computing time far beyond the computing time he engaged in before getting an iPad. The PC is becoming the supplemental device, not the other way around.

Now let's think how iPads are selling at a rate of 20 million per quarter (and read Asymco.com for how the adoption rate is beginning to eclipse "traditional PCs", bearing in mind that PCs are more of a one-per-household thing whereas tablets and smartphones are more of a one-per-person thing, or more). Now let's add iPhones because they are also iOS and people are becoming rather attached to them, too...

Voila, PostPC era, baby, here we come....woohoo!
Edited by krabbelen - 7/13/12 at 2:08am
post #90 of 210
I like the idea of unifying the user experience, but I don't think the Metro UI is really the answer for that. As it stands, I like the sharing of ideas between the two seperate worlds iOS and OS X better; they aren't literally the same, but they do borrow a lot from one another.

But philosophically, I think the vision of "post-PC” is just plain better. Maybe post-PC isn't what consumers think they want, but innovation changes what people want. 20 years ago, the idea of a television wrist watch seemed like the future, but no one had even thought of anything like YouTube or Netflix. "What consumers want" isn't what drives the future, innovation does.
post #91 of 210

Microsoft has it right: As tablets power up, they're destined to become more powerful, support more interfaces, like IR, radio, USB, optical, memory, etc. They'll move towards PCs. The closer they get, the more they can do, the better I'll like them.

 

Apple's misguided attempt to "IOS-a-cise" OSX will backfire on them. Guaranteed. It's a bad idea, based on a misperception.

 

The primary upgrade I need right now in IOS is true nested folders -- instead of this stupid, no-nest, limited count container that LOOKS like a folder... leading to a disorganized, spread-out mess on my tablet surface. Is it here? No, that folder is full. Is it there? No, that folder is full, too. Stupid. Just plain stupid. And wholly unnecessary.

 

Nested, scrolling folders have been OS basics since the early 1980's. Apple screwed the pooch there, too.

 

It'll be fun to see Android and Windows ignore the artificial limits Apple imposes. Nothing like seeing the mighty brought down for entertainment value.

post #92 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Now even people that have never used a Mac seem to be familiar with the Get A Mac campaign if they are from a country that ran them.

 

 

 

...or used the Internet. The campaign never ran in India, but I saw quite a few of them online when visiting various sites. I never found them irritating as I normally find online ads.

post #93 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyngyrz View Post

Microsoft has it right: As tablets power up, they're destined to become more powerful, support more interfaces, like IR, radio, USB, optical, memory, etc. They'll move towards PCs. The closer they get, the more they can do, the better I'll like them.

 

Apple's misguided attempt to "IOS-a-cise" OSX will backfire on them. Guaranteed. It's a bad idea, based on a misperception.

 

The primary upgrade I need right now in IOS is true nested folders -- instead of this stupid, no-nest, limited count container that LOOKS like a folder... leading to a disorganized, spread-out mess on my tablet surface. Is it here? No, that folder is full. Is it there? No, that folder is full, too. Stupid. Just plain stupid. And wholly unnecessary.

 

Nested, scrolling folders have been OS basics since the early 1980's. Apple screwed the pooch there, too.

 

It'll be fun to see Android and Windows ignore the artificial limits Apple imposes. Nothing like seeing the mighty brought down for entertainment value.

you may well like all that geeky stuff "more powerful" tablets can do.

 

but you, sir, are in a very limited minority. the rest of the world, the vast majority, want "just works" instead.

 

wait and see.

post #94 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanada View Post

If Apple got serious and produced a real Office Suite comparable to MS Office (iWork doesn't count) but lean, mean and full of features, Microsoft would be screwed.

If I was a Microsoft investor, I would be seriously concerned. Don't let MS turn into RIM.

Very true.  I've often debated why Apple won't make a real Office Suite.  Look at the current situation.  Apple hasn't upgraded iWork in any significant manner since 2009.  The question is "why".  Apple isn't stupid.  It recognizes that people want them to make a competitive office suite.  Obviously Apple is choosing not to compete.   

 

I've thought of many possible reasons, but the one that makes the most sense to me is that Apple doesn't want or can't get Microsoft's primary customer, which is corporate IT.  For most of us, our corporate IT manager is the one that decides which document processing software we use and if and when we upgrade that software.  There is zero chance that my corporate IT director is going to be shopping at the Apple store anytime soon.  Apple must recognize this problem and chooses not to fight a battle it will probably lose.

 

The only hope we have is that Macs will continue their assent into enterprise.  At some point, there will be enough Macs in the workplace to make a compelling case to compete in word processing.  I don't think we are anywhere near the critical mass we need.  I'm thinking it might be iWork 2020.

post #95 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyngyrz View Post

Microsoft has it right: As tablets power up, they're destined to become more powerful, support more interfaces, like IR, radio, USB, optical, memory, etc. They'll move towards PCs. The closer they get, the more they can do, the better I'll like them.

 

Apple's misguided attempt to "IOS-a-cise" OSX will backfire on them. Guaranteed. It's a bad idea, based on a misperception.

 

The primary upgrade I need right now in IOS is true nested folders -- instead of this stupid, no-nest, limited count container that LOOKS like a folder... leading to a disorganized, spread-out mess on my tablet surface. Is it here? No, that folder is full. Is it there? No, that folder is full, too. Stupid. Just plain stupid. And wholly unnecessary.

 

Nested, scrolling folders have been OS basics since the early 1980's. Apple screwed the pooch there, too.

 

It'll be fun to see Android and Windows ignore the artificial limits Apple imposes. Nothing like seeing the mighty brought down for entertainment value.

What you fail to consider is how easy Apple made it for software developers to write software for the iPad and iPhone.  That has resulted in a drastic reduction in cost in software for the iPad and iPhone.  Apps cost $1-$5 instead of $50-$300 like OS-X and Windows apps.  Apple is succeeding in training a whole generation of new programmers.  And, the limitations of iOS are diminishing every year.  With Apple's upgrade cycle, there is no reason why Apple can't keep its developers and customers happy.  (or at least most of them).  In the meantime, Apple's devices will continue to be the fastest and lightest produvts with the best batter life (which is what matters to the largest number of people). And they will have plenty of software to choose from.   

post #96 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Remember when people thought the Zune would kick ass because MS always won? Things didn't work out so well and that was when MS had a dominate mind share in the tech field. Things could be different, but based on my experience with Win8 and their inability to understand what customers want and how to focus on a single product I'm guessing they won't this time around either. Things will get more clear once they actually give us a ship date on and price points on their multiple tablets with incompatible OSes and apps.

Ouch!!!!  That's a quip to remember.

BTW, isn't the Big Bang Theory the funniest TV show ever produced?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanada View Post

If Apple got serious and produced a real Office Suite comparable to MS Office (iWork doesn't count) but lean, mean and full of features, Microsoft would be screwed.

If I was a Microsoft investor, I would be seriously concerned. Don't let MS turn into RIM.

Very true.  I've often debated why Apple won't make a real Office Suite.  Look at the current situation.  Apple hasn't upgraded iWork in any significant manner since 2009.  The question is "why".  Apple isn't stupid.  It recognizes that people want them to make a competitive office suite.  Obviously Apple is choosing not to compete.   

 

I've thought of many possible reasons, but the one that makes the most sense to me is that Apple doesn't want or can't get Microsoft's primary customer, which is corporate IT.  For most of us, our corporate IT manager is the one that decides which document processing software we use and if and when we upgrade that software.  There is zero chance that my corporate IT director is going to be shopping at the Apple store anytime soon.  Apple must recognize this problem and chooses not to fight a battle it will probably lose.

 

The only hope we have is that Macs will continue their assent into enterprise.  At some point, there will be enough Macs in the workplace to make a compelling case to compete in word processing.  I don't think we are anywhere near the critical mass we need.  I'm thinking it might be iWork 2020.

post #97 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

Thats not the point.... the point is that the PC is not going away, instead PC's are being supplemented by tablets.


MS is right... its simple, tell me what "PC" stands for.... now tell me what a tablet is... or are tablets not personal?

Er, tablets are mobile as in you don't need a keyboard because there is a virtual one and you can do it anywhere and the best thing is the apps are really cheap.
post #98 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

And if Apple made it have backwards compatibility with old file types... that is the real problem i think....


and MS office is so entrenched.... imagine if RIM had phones with 10 year contracts..... and no way to terminate early....


aside from that it would be great!!! (aka once if took 5-10+ years to grow)

All applications are backward compatible but the problem is old applications are not compatible with the latest and greatest.
post #99 of 210

To my mind the differences in post-pc and pc+ are of attitude and usage.

 

Pc+ refers to the things you do at the office (work) and want to take home (or along with you) so you continue working.

 

Post-pc refers to the stuff you do for yourself... Instead of work -- stuff that you want to do, that you enjoy,  that interests or fulfills you.

 

I think most of us understand the pc+ connotation, so let's focus on post-pc activities that you wouldn't do on a pc+ device (a laptop or a tablet with a "proper OS" and ?proper apps").

 

The grand kids took a car trip (2 days, each way) to Canada with their dad.  Each had their personal iPad.  Each could do his own thing, changing at will -- read, watch movies, listen to music, play games (together or independently).  Each had his iPad in a case and the charger -- that's it... No battery's, kbs, accessories -- just the iPads.

 

At least once a week we have a family reading session -- where we sit around, each taking turns reading aloud while the others follow along on his personal iPad.  The emphasis is on comprehension and "story-telling".  We pass of the reading  to someone else, randomly... So you need to pay attention.  At any time anyone can ask the meaning of something or challenge the readers's emphasis or pronunciation.

 

Any of us (my daughter and I, mainly) will have our iPad handy (in our lap) when sitting in front of the TV.  At the spur of the moment we will surf the web (what films has that actor been in, when was Steve Nash drafted, what's a good recipe for clams casino...).  

 

When anyone needs something from the store, they tell my daughter  -- who enters it into a checklist app I wrote (iPhone and iPad)

 

At the supermarket, my daughter and/or the kids will fan out through the aisles gathering items from the list.

 

Later, in the kitchen, my granddaughter puts her iPad in a ziplock bag so she can cook dinner from the recipes she found.

 

Often, while watching the tube, I will surf the web, post to forums, or play games.  I just grab my handy iPad.

 

During the kids trip to Canada, we monitored their progress with Find my iPhone.

 

When they got back, my granddaughter, compared her shots of, say, the Space Needle with the iOS 6 3D maps.

 

I have never been to their grandfathers house in Victoria.  But I was able to locate it with iOS 6 maps (the one with the red roof between to gray roofs). I dropped a pin and got the address range, then went to Street View (iOS 5 on another iPad).  I maneuvered in front of the red roofed house and took a screen shot.  I emailed the photo to my granddaughter:  "Look Familiar?".   It blew her away -- she  thought we followed them to Vancouver.   Boom!

 

 

BTW, those iPhone pictures that my granddaughter took on her trip to Canada, appeared instantly on all our iPad photo streams.

 

if one of us is trying to think of a song --- we can search among the 16,000 songs we have on iCloud.

 

While my daughter is watching TV, she often works on a class presentation (church) or checks/builds her calendar including soccer schedules.

 

My granddaughter, while in Canada, shot some video on her iPhone and made a movie with iMovie on her iPad.

 

 

Yes, you certainly could do some of this on a PC or a PC+ device... But, likely, you wouldn't get up, walk over to the PC in the corner, sit down, fire it up, wait, start the app, wait, do your thing, shut down the PC, get up, walk back to the couch and sit down... Or even attempt to put the laptop in a ziplock bag while cooking...

 

 

That's too much "work"!  

 

This is my stuff!

 

If this seems rather disjointed -- it's because it is -- that's the way life is for most of us...  Things come up -- unplanned, we adapt, handle it and move on... That's the post-pc world we live in -- that's what the iPad/iPhone excel at!  ...(a plethora of preposition violations)

 

 

Dictated and typed (virtual kb) on my iPad while sitting on the couch.


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 7/13/12 at 5:39am
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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post #100 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

oh course they see it that way, so did IBM when the PC come onto the stage, they though the PC would be an extension to the Mainframe and they would never disappeared, I know many of you have no clue what a Mainframe is, and you kids in 20 years will no idea what a PC is either.

 

I still work with customers how have Mainframe computers running mission critical applications. True some of them are running Linux for zOS but still, for some customers every time they look at removing the mainframe from their environment they end up buying a new one instead. 

post #101 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by BestKeptSecret View Post



...or used the Internet. The campaign never ran in India, but I saw quite a few of them online when visiting various sites. I never found them irritating as I normally find online ads.

You can see all of them here:
http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/apples-get-mac-complete-campaign-130552?page=1
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #102 of 210
How come when I click on pages of this article my web browser downloads a file?
post #103 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

the best thing about this debate is that the answer will be decided in the marektplace over the next year. and we'll actually see who was right/wrong.

 

 

If you take that as a reasonable metric, then Apple is wrong about OSX.  OSX machines never really became popular, and are dwarfed by sales of Windows machines,

 

Same with Android phones vs. iOS phones.  

 

Do you really want to rely on market share as a basis for any opinion that yo prefer Apple's products?  What is with the right/wrong dichotomy?

 

It is perfectly OK for you to enjoy your Apple products, despite the fact that OSX computers and iOS phones are not as popular as Windows computers and Android phones.

 

There are lots of reasons why Apple products sell only to a minority of buyers.  But I'm not sure that right/wrong has much to do with it.

post #104 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Oh and here's another Lenovo lt that the Apple haters swear up and down looks nothing like a Mac.
KB_TP_3_1020_gallery_post.jpg
Why is it so hard for people to admit that a lot of PC laptops/Ultrabooks take their design cues from the MacBook Pro/Air these days? It's so obvious. And has nothing to do with whether Apple invented something or not (i.e. wedge shape, chicklit keyboard), it's about the finished product, all th design components put together.A

As someone who has used a Lenovo for 4 years now and has followed their product design, there are two parts of lenovo.

1. the idea___ part, which is just like every cheapass windows manufacturer.  Their products are trash

2. the think___ part of Lenovo, which makes high quality and unique machines.  

 

So you are right, part of lenovo is doing what every other PC manufacturer is doing.... however the part of Lenovo that people who buy from Apple should actually look at for other companies innovating has been doing just fine.

 

 

as a note, i find it funny that Thinkpad's are generally the highest quality computer's after Apple's, and they have the opposite design ideals (in a way) you have jet black blocky against white/aluminum and smooth :).

 

I always imagined that thinkpad's are basically what would happen in Apple started building computers with windows only... high quality high price.

 

also another really random note  i with i could get a T530 with all the battery options maxed.... ~20 (13 dvd/28 idle/5 hours max load) hours wifi surfing.... followed by a whole ~7 hours to recharge to max..... 

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #105 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post



But the market will be the final arbiter of who is "wrong," 
 
 

 

 

Do you really believe that?  Was Apple wrong about the Mac?  Is apple wrong about iOS phones?

post #106 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post

The idea behind the name "personal computer" might have been to denote that one person sat at it, at a desk, to operate it, if not to own it. But they haven't really reached penetration levels of one per person; they are usually shared, such as between members of a household. PostPC devices will however easily reach penetration of one per person for much of the world, if not more than one per person (I have both an iPod touch and an iPad, while I share my Mac with my family). They are more personal because of the way you create, publish, carry and share your own data where ever you go, repurposing it in ever more unique ways.

 

No, the PC is not going away; but I would contend that, actually, PostPC devices will be supplemented by PCs. A subtle difference, but a difference nevertheless, and one that symbolizes the "PostPC" era. For many young people, this is already a reality. This is the difference that is lost on MS. It thinks it can automatically catch up and recapture this divide just by slapping the word "Windows" on everything; thereby denying there is any such notion as "PostPC", or negating it if it catches hold.

EXACTLY!!!! ONCE traditional PC's supplement tablets we will be in a post(stereotypical)-PC world!!!

 

guess what, we are not even starting to enter one!!! TABLETS CURRENTLY SUPPLEMENT traditional PC's!!!

 

get back to me in 5-10 years and you may be right.

 

 

the Post (stereotypical) PC will come eventually, but right now i believe a PC+ world is more true.

 

my "definitions/understanding of what words mean": 

Post (traditional) PC: tablets/smartphones are completely supplemented by traditional PC's.

(traditional) PC+: tablets/smartphones are supplementing traditional PC's.

 

 

tell me which one of those is happening right now, than which one will (should) happen in 5-10+ years.

 

on that note, apparently Amazon has taken multiple MS phone high up people.... lol...

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply

PC means personal computer.  

i have processing issues, mostly trying to get my ideas into speech and text.

if i say something confusing please tell me!

Reply
post #107 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

lol.gif

 

Well.. when your Surface sells 15 million each quarter then you make a claim that your approach the correct one.

 

And when Macs sell 80 Million in a quarter will you then make a claim that Apple's approach is the correct one?  And more importantly, will you claim that until that happens, the Mac approach is the incorrect one?

 

C'mon.  Don't get hoisted by your own petard.  Choose a better weapon.  Market share is accounted for by many different factors, but "correct" is a dangerous factor to cite.  Glass houses and all that.

post #108 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by freediverx View Post

 

 

and we'll actually see who was right/wrong, AGAIN.

 

Are you saying that Microsoft is "right" and that Google is "right" with Windows and Android, respectively? And that Apple is "wrong" with OSX and iOS for phones, both?

 

Are you sure that market share and "right" are tightly correlated? 

post #109 of 210

PC stands for "personal computer." Which is kind of a silly name since no one I know has mainframe lurking in their basement. I think PCs should really be called by their form-factors: desktop computer, laptop computer, tablet computer, hand-held computer. "Personal computer" made sense when I was a kid because up until that point, computers were not a personal belonging, they were massive time-shared machines that lived in businesses, labs and universities. The term "personal computer" is now just as dated and in accurate as "micro computer."

post #110 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Has Ballmer commented on whether a tablet is a PC or not? If not I can see that coming once they sell a few ... that will be the moment Apple can give in and agree ... then post the Apple sales data for 'PCs' (Macs + iPads).

 

Yes.  Almost two years ago, Ballmer proclaimed that tablets are just PCs with a different form factor.  And he's been saying the same thing ever since.

 

Thompson

post #111 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

 

 the rest of the world, the vast majority, want "just works" instead.

 

 

 

 

How do you explain that Macs are outsold by Windows machines at a ratio of about 9:1, if your premise is true?

post #112 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post

 

BTW, isn't the Big Bang Theory the funniest TV show ever produced?

 

 

 

 

 

That depends on its market share.

 

 

/s

post #113 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

Thats not the point.... the point is that the PC is not going away, instead PC's are being supplemented by tablets.

MS is right... its simple, tell me what "PC" stands for.... now tell me what a tablet is... or are tablets not personal?

 

All you are doing here is arguing semantics.  But the divide between Microsoft's and Apple's positions are about much more than semantics.  Apple's position is that the operating systems required for the different form factors (of PCs with larger monitors versus handhelds with smaller ones) need to be different in order to optimize the user experience.  Microsoft is disagreeing with that and trying to converge the various form factors with one user interface. You can win your semantic argument all day long, but I think Microsoft is wrong on the actual issue at play here.  

 

On a side note, I think that Microsoft is creating a Frankenstein out of two already ugly parts (Windows, and Metro).  When I first saw Metro on current Windows Phones, I found it to be classless, ugly, and nonintuitive.  But I figured that's just my own personal opinion.  Since that time, the consumers have voted with their wallets, and I think the result of the vote is that Metro is unappealing to the masses (your opinion may differ, that's cool).  The poor sales of Nokia's Lumia line is not all Nokia's fault.  As a general rule, nobody wants Metro.  Now Microsoft is integrating that mess into its other products?  Mistake.

 

Thompson

post #114 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerrySwitched26 View Post

 

 

How do you explain that Macs are outsold by Windows machines at a ratio of about 9:1, if your premise is true?

 

A big part of the world ends up buying whatever they can afford, and in the 80's and 90's that meant Windows (for most people).  Then the war was over... but a sequel is brewing... and many dynamics have changed.

 

Thompson

post #115 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolbolas View Post

could offices across america the world replace their computer with iPads and get as much done in the same time?

based on everything i have seen and heard the answer in no.  The closest device to being able to fill that role however, is the surface.... (the x86-64 version)

 

 

As mentioned, Jobs' analogy of cars and trucks makes the most sense. 

 

Traditional PCs = pickups

Tablets/Smartphones = sedans

 

I suppose laptops, who although predate tablets actually seem like a tweener category between PCs and Tablets, are analogous to crossover vehicles, SUVs, etc.

 

At one point, everybody used trucks. Now they're mainly used in professional settings or for people who need to haul things around. While not replacing trucks, the center of focus for the average person has shifted to sedans, and their ilk. Why? They accomplish 95% of what the average person needs to do, while having the benefits of a better ride, better fuel economy, etc. 

 

PCs/workstations/etc won't be replaced anytime soon. Professionals still need them, and prosumers may have one at home to do heavy lifting. But the industry's focus is shifting to the tablet, as it accomplishes 95% of what the average user wants to do: browse the web, shop online, bank online, check email, view photos, play games, and stay up to date with family and friends. For the average user, how often do they need the functionality of a PC? A tablet does the majority of what people want, and it presents a more portable form factor, a more enjoyable experience, and better battery life.

 

For me personally, I use a PC at work. I could never replace the functionality with a tablet; even if the processor was just as fast, the form factor is for portability, not serious work. But when I get home? I don't even have a PC at home. Just an iPad. And an iPhone. I haven't had a need for a PC at home for quite a while. 

 

I imagine we're headed down a path where most people will be in a similar boat: a PC at work, a personal device (tablet, etc) at home. For some people, they might continue to have a PC at home, but it will outnumbered by personal devices; instead of the days when a home had 3-4 PCs at home, there will be perhaps 1 PC and 2-4 personal devices. Just like people may have a pickup truck at home for the occasional chore, but they drive around in a Camry most days. 

post #116 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

 

All you are doing here is arguing semantics.  But the divide between Microsoft's and Apple's positions are about much more than semantics.  Apple's position is that the operating systems required for the different form factors (of PCs with larger monitors versus handhelds with smaller ones) need to be different in order to optimize the user experience.  Microsoft is disagreeing with that and trying to converge the various form factors with one user interface. You can win your semantic argument all day long, but I think Microsoft is wrong on the actual issue at play here.  

 

On a side note, I think that Microsoft is creating a Frankenstein out of two already ugly parts (Windows, and Metro).  When I first saw Metro on current Windows Phones, I found it to be classless, ugly, and nonintuitive.  But I figured that's just my own personal opinion.  Since that time, the consumers have voted with their wallets, and I think the result of the vote is that Metro is unappealing to the masses (your opinion may differ, that's cool).  The poor sales of Nokia's Lumia line is not all Nokia's fault.  As a general rule, nobody wants Metro.  Now Microsoft is integrating that mess into its other products?  Mistake.

 

Thompson

 

The other issue is that the only goal that I can think of for having a convergent OS from a user's standpoint is the following:

 

- If I type a Word document on my PC, I want to be able to open it on my tablet, and vice versa

- I want to be able to use software that I'm familiar with

- ???

 

What other point is there? And as it stands, those two issues can be settled largely with the cloud and a large developer base. For instance, Apple has shown that you can have the SAME software (from a user's standpoint) running on a Mac and an iPad. Take Pages as example: a user can create a document on their iPad and, using iCloud, can open that document on their Mac, and vice versa. Other developers are taking that queue, and iOS 6 will allow more use of iCloud for third party apps.

 

This means that developers can release companion versions of their desktop apps for the iPad, and have the data shared between both versions. Plus, it allows the companion version to be designed with a touch interface in mind, instead of running an actual desktop app. 

 

Obviously, this is more work on the back end for developers. But do the users care as long as it works? Nope. And with as much weight as Apple carries in the developer industry (which developer wouldn't want to cater to such a large market?), developers will be than eager to take on the extra work. 

 

Thus, there is no need for a user to want or need a convergent OS. I can understand your desire for one if you're a developer, but you gotta go with the flow.

post #117 of 210

 

 

Quote:
but you, sir, are in a very limited minority. the rest of the world, the vast majority, want "just works" instead.

 

...there is no  inherent conflict between "just works" and "highly capable"
 
For instance, you think adding an IR port (so the tablet can talk to/at your stereo, tv, etc.) will make the tablet suddenly not "just work"?
 
You think adding a memory card slot will make it not "just work"?
 
You think that because a folder can have more than 16 apps in it, it'll stop working? Or that if you can drag one folder into another, you can't drag them back out? Or never drag them in at all?
 
You're not thinking at all.
 
However, yes, the competition will be doing all these things and more, and if Apple sticks to this "dumbed down" hardware path, they'll simply fall behind. So I predict that Apple will see the light, and not too long from now, either. And in the meantime, I'll just wait -- because I'm not buying an "upgrade" that isn't an upgrade.
post #118 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyngyrz View Post

Microsoft has it right: As tablets power up, they're destined to become more powerful, support more interfaces, like IR, radio, USB, optical, memory, etc. They'll move towards PCs. The closer they get, the more they can do, the better I'll like them.

Apple's misguided attempt to "IOS-a-cise" OSX will backfire on them. Guaranteed. It's a bad idea, based on a misperception.

The primary upgrade I need right now in IOS is true nested folders -- instead of this stupid, no-nest, limited count container that LOOKS like a folder... leading to a disorganized, spread-out mess on my tablet surface. Is it here? No, that folder is full. Is it there? No, that folder is full, too. Stupid. Just plain stupid. And wholly unnecessary.

Nested, scrolling folders have been OS basics since the early 1980's. Apple screwed the pooch there, too.

It'll be fun to see Android and Windows ignore the artificial limits Apple imposes. Nothing like seeing the mighty brought down for entertainment value.


The reasons you defend MSs decisions are based on the same fallacies MS is making and has always made. You cling to the past. Case in point, you want USB, IR, and optical media on a tablet.

Optical media is dead - that's a fact. No one is working on a successor to BlueRay and anything that tries to would fail. Burning disks or buying movies on disk is outdated and obsolete. Have you seen sales figures for optical media? It is quickly on its way out and I for one and many others don't lament it's death. Any view other than that is likely short-sighted.

IR is outdated. It's hardly used. Even my ceiling fan uses RF for its remote. IR is only good for remote controls and with the ubiquity of BlueTooth and WiFi there is no need for IR. one would surely never choose IR over BT or, especially, WiFi for data transmission. There is no point to IR for either a remote (must be line of site) or data transfer (can you say painfully slow?).

USB is not necessary for a tablet. One doesn't do anything with USB that they can't do over WiFi or BT. File transfer with a thumb drive? Why? You've already got your portable device in the tablet. Carrying around a thumb drive or hard drive in addition to that is assanine. USB mic? You have a dual purpose audio port that works with several third party headsets. Backup Drive? You have the cloud and backup to PC (which should have its own dedicated backup drive hense a double backup solution - triple if you count the cloud).

In reference to your file system argument, well, I'd like greater capacity per folder as well but it hasn't been a huge issue for the majority of users. Additionally the dismissal of the traditional folder system is welcome. Most users can't figure out where their résumé is saved to on their C drive to save their lives. It's pathetic, but true. Most users think their document is stored IN WORD. Not as an independent file. I know all this from my experience working with the public. So Apple's in app documents simply builds on the consumers expectations. The fact that the docs are stored on the cloud as well as locally as independent files is transparent so the user always knows where to go for their data. To the app that created it.

The iPad (and iPhone and iPod Touch, and Android devices for that matter) are disruptors. They are not continuations of the same OLD tired and dying technology that a minority of users are unwilling to give up or are blinded to the demise of their ubiquity. The iOS devices are a new breed ushering in an erra where we are liberated from dragging around a half dozen peripherals to support our bloated PCs (I use the term PC to describe both PCs and Macs in this context). The rest of the world is moving on and you're welcome to join the ride or stay behind. If you need IR, USB, and optical drives for the majority of what you do with a tablet then by all means stick with your legacy technology. No one is asking you to abandon it. Just don't expect the rest of us who have moved on to continue to cater to your needs because we will not. Like religion, political party, or favorite ice cream flavor the choice is yours. Just don't impose it on me.

On that note, how's your standard definition CRT TV, VCR, carburated engine, 3.5" floppy disk drive, and wood burning kettle stove working out for you?
post #119 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post

What you fail to consider is how easy Apple made it for software developers to write software for the iPad and iPhone.  That has resulted in a drastic reduction in cost in software for the iPad and iPhone.  Apps cost $1-$5 instead of $50-$300 like OS-X and Windows apps.  Apple is succeeding in training a whole generation of new programmers.  And, the limitations of iOS are diminishing every year.  With Apple's upgrade cycle, there is no reason why Apple can't keep its developers and customers happy.  (or at least most of them).  In the meantime, Apple's devices will continue to be the fastest and lightest produvts with the best batter life (which is what matters to the largest number of people). And they will have plenty of software to choose from.   

 

Good grief. I am an Apple developer, and more than that, I've been developing software since the 1970's. It's no easier (or more difficult) to develop IOS apps than it is OSX, WIndows or Linux, for that matter. It's just (slightly) different. The cost of IOS apps is just a marketing strategy. And there are some that are quite expensive, too. As well to note that there are many inexpensive or free OSX, WIndows and LInux apps.

 

I really don't know where you people get these crazy ideas.

 

Fastest? No. There are faster computers out there than Apple makes; there are certainly some faster tablets, too. Lightest, yes, perhaps. And that's a big selling point, I agree. But it's not enough to keep them in front. The question every consumer ultimately asks is "what can this device do for me" and when APple comes up wanting in a comparison, that'll be the beginning of the market force that makes them adjust their strategy.

post #120 of 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigmamatic View Post


The reasons you defend MSs decisions are based on the same fallacies MS is making and has always made. You cling to the past. Case in point, you want USB, IR, and optical media on a tablet.
 

 

No, I don't want optical media. I said I wanted a card slot. It's be nice if you read what I wrote instead of responding to your imagination.

 

USB and IR? You bet I could use those. As could a significant portion of the market.

 

As for the rest, pfft. I dont' defend their decisions. I simply observe Apple is screwing up here with these poorly chosen new directions for IOS and OSX. Time will prove me right.

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