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post #81 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac View Post

Wow, so many bullshit in one comment section.

iOS 6 has no other big surprises, no cards up its sleeve. The wallet app? Android has it, and WP8's is better than both. Speaking of WP8, all of this laziness on part of Google and Apple is leaving the door open for Microsoft to not only catch up with them, but to surpass them completely. Laugh if you must, but I'll be buying a Nokia Lumia 801 (or whatever it will be called) as soon as it's out. And sell my 4S to buy it.

 

You talk like a spoiled kid who drool for Paris Hilton or Lady Gaga, all blings and no substance "artist".  If you can't see how things really works under the hood of any OS, you should keep your comments for your self. Right now on a dev level, iOS is the best apps platform out there.  I don't care much for base functionality anymore since Apple got it right at they're first release, I care much about having a great platform for running great apps. 

post #82 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

 

You talk like a spoiled kid who drool for Paris Hilton or Lady Gaga, all blings and no substance "artist".  If you can't see how things really works under the hood of any OS, you should keep your comments for your self. Right now on a dev level, iOS is the best apps platform out there.  I don't care much for base functionality anymore since Apple got it right at they're first release, I care much about having a great platform for running great apps. 

Nobody gets it right the first time. When you  talk like that, its you who looks like a spoiled kid. When the first iPhone came out, it had its kinks, some bugs, some changes needed to be made, some to be improved. No one got it right the first time, so don't overexert yourself spewing the belief that Apple has planted in you. Sure they made a great phone, but even they know that they need to improve somehow.

 

The problem is that they are running out of ideas because they are too busy looking up what other "IP" they can sue others with. Lol.

Still, they made a great phone, and it moved the industry. Kudos to them for that. Now, they are trying to stop the industry that they built.

post #83 of 112

Two replies to my comment. Two posts which can be shortened as "Well you are STUPID!"

 

Amount of actual reasons as to why iOS 6 isn't a minor upgrade and will kick WP8's ass: ZERO.

Stay classy, AppleInsider.

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post #84 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

 

You talk like a spoiled kid who drool for Paris Hilton or Lady Gaga, all blings and no substance "artist". 


Now THAT's offensive. You're talking to someone who thinks U2, Coldplay, Metallica, AC/DC, Guns and Roses and Nirvana to be overrated bands with no real substance. Paris Hilton? Lady Gaga? Beyonce? LMFAO? They should be put in jail for diminishing the world's collective IQ and cultural levels.



Quote:
If you can't see how things really works under the hood of any OS, you should keep your comments for your self. Right now on a dev level, iOS is the best apps platform out there.

 


I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure most devs would rather code in C++ instead of Obj-C if they could.

BTW, since WP8 shares its kernel with desktop Windows (and includes DirectX 11), porting apps will be as hard as rebuilding the interface. Pretty smart move from MS if you ask me.

 

 

 

Quote:
I don't care much for base functionality anymore since Apple got it right at they're first release, I care much about having a great platform for running great apps.

 


Really? Try installing iOS 1.0, or even 2.0, then come here and tell me that again. Anyway, *that* base functionality isn't what's still missing (and coming to WP8). We're talking about high-res support, SD card support, dual-core support. As far as actual OS usage goes, there's a lot where WP7.5 is already ahead of iOS 6. Downloadable local maps? Unified social hub?

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post #85 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac View Post

I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure most devs would rather code in C++ instead of Obj-C if they could.

BTW, since WP8 shares its kernel with desktop Windows (and includes DirectX 11), porting apps will be as hard as rebuilding the interface. Pretty smart move from MS if you ask me.

 

FYI, Obj-C is merely an extension to pure GnuC, so you have all the freedom to use C++ an C code into iOS Apps.  In an other hand, while WP8 share the same Win NT kernel, Having Windows Kernel does not mean every API will be there. Microsoft won't port all Windows runtime API like .NET, DCOM and VBRun to ARM version of Windows, so the majority of existing Windows apps won't be ported on WP8 less they already use or change to C# and Metro API, and if you've code a little, you should know how horrible C# is.  After 4 years, iOS and Objective-C have proven to be one of the most flexible smalltalk message-passing object based language out there, with real cross-plateform C based API like OpenGL and OpenCL.

 

Beside, iOS always had high-res and dual-core support, and Apple got iOS kernel and runtime API right at their first release. Microsoft is now restarting their mobile platform Kernel and runtime API for a third time with WP8 announcement, and still doesn't unified Phone and Tablet apps.

 

Drooling over WP8 is more blings than substance. 


Edited by BigMac2 - 7/18/12 at 7:36am
post #86 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

 I can't disagree with anything that you have said but  add that IMO it has been handled rather badly with no assurances from either MS or Nokia, by that I mean that they should be stressing that the overall experience wont be massively different.

If the next iphone has, for example, NFC, I doubt that owners of the 4s and older would be crying foul. I guess that the difference is that Apple would unify the iOS version and point out that not all new features of iOS or new apps would be available on older handsets (as is already the case).

Perhaps MS are guilty of being too honest and wanting to prevent confusion between wp7.8 and W8 compatibility

Can't agree more. Microsoft have, in my eyes, never been an advertising power house when it comes to consumer electronics.

Anyone cringe when you saw the following?
Windows7 - "Windows 7 was my idea!"
Xbox - "Life is too short - Jump In!" (or, as I like to call it, the iconic 90s playstation advert after taking a few whacks to the face with a medieval mace)
Zune - Man litterally shitting paint... Nuff said...
Surface - DUBSTEP WUUB WUUB WUUB WUUB WUUB. There's a kick stand in here somewhere as well...

I actually found the "Windows 7 was my idea" more cringe worthy than any of their other adverts (yes, even the Zune). I don't know what it was about it, it just made me so angry.


Sorry, getting off on a tangent here. :P

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post #87 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

 

Beside, iOS always had high-res and dual-core support, and Apple got iOS kernel and runtime API right at their first release. Microsoft is now restarting their mobile platform Kernel and runtime API for a third time with WP8 announcement, and still doesn't unified Phone and Tablet apps.

 

Drooling over WP8 is more blings than substance. 

 

 

You think I don't know iOS had dual-core support (high res, OTOH, I doubt)? And funny you should talk about unified Phone and Tablet apps as if it were an intrinsically good thing.

What, exactly, is "blings" about WP8?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post


Can't agree more. Microsoft have, in my eyes, never been an advertising power house when it comes to consumer electronics.
Anyone cringe when you saw the following?
Windows7 - "Windows 7 was my idea!"
Xbox - "Life is too short - Jump In!" (or, as I like to call it, the iconic 90s playstation advert after taking a few whacks to the face with a medieval mace)
Zune - Man litterally shitting paint... Nuff said...
Surface - DUBSTEP WUUB WUUB WUUB WUUB WUUB. There's a kick stand in here somewhere as well...
I actually found the "Windows 7 was my idea" more cringe worthy than any of their other adverts (yes, even the Zune). I don't know what it was about it, it just made me so angry.
Sorry, getting off on a tangent here. :P


And here's why I hate the tech scene nowadays. Back in 2007, it was so easy picking sides - only Apple was undeniably competent. Now, everyone's got their major strengths and flaws. Microsoft has been doing some interesting stuff lately, but the majority of the company is still the old, dumb Microsoft we love to hate.

At least this should make fanboys a more obvious sight. And hopefully, diminish their numbers 

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post #88 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac View Post

 

 

You think I don't know iOS had dual-core support (high res, OTOH, I doubt)? And funny you should talk about unified Phone and Tablet apps as if it were an intrinsically good thing.

What, exactly, is "blings" about WP8?

 

Quartz window manager doesn't have any resolution limit like QuickDraw or Windows GDI and can easily manage heterogeneous resolution UI done on iOS and retina MBP. Unified IDE for mobile products who share the same touch input principe and same resources limitations make a much better ecosystem either for devs and consumers than Microsoft approach of lets WP8 being alone in is corner while creating a new third platform (WindowsRT) which can't run either WP8 or Windows 8 apps.

 

Beside sharing the same Windows name, Microsoft has never put any effort into unifying their ecosystem, each Microsoft platform has their own apps and can't be shared across Microsoft product line, right now Microsoft have 4 distinct platform (counting the Xbox) with no way for a user to buy one apps and run it everywhere nor a way for a developper to create one apps and reach a unified ecosystem that will grown overtime. Now with their new rebooted WP8 platform, Microsoft is telling to all WP7 developer to redo their apps once again or vanish.  And my prediction is Microsoft will somehow merge WP8 and Windows RT in the future, rebooting his IDE once again. 


Edited by BigMac2 - 7/18/12 at 10:11am
post #89 of 112
Quote:

Now with their new rebooted WP8 platform, Microsoft is telling to all WP7 developer to redo their apps once again or vanish.

To reiterate a point I made earlier in this thread;

 

Windows Phone 7.8 and Windows Phone 8 can run the same application and have the same features. The only difference between the two is that 7.8 is meant for older hardware platforms and 8 has APIs and support for newer hardware (such as NFC and Multi-Core processors).

 

Microsoft Will also keep updating WP7.8 for 18 months after its release.

 

So no, WP7 developers will not have to redo their apps and users of older hardware are not forgotten.

 

Now lets compare that with Apple:

 

Want the new Maps? Buy a 4s.

Want Siri? Buy a 4s.

Want Air Play Mirroring on your Mac? Apple TV 2 and a Mac from 2011 or newer.

 

Its been shown that the iPhone 4 can handle Siri (and theoretically, the new maps as well) and my Nokia Lumia 900 with its single core CPU does all the things Siri can do without question (using the Microsoft "TellMe" software) and it has the brilliant Nokia Maps software and SatNav pre-installed. The 3GS is even worse, yet the Lumia 610 sells for £150 Pay As You Go (more than half the price of the 3GS on PAYG) and has all the features of the flagship Lumia 900 where the 3GS struggles to keep up feature wise with the iPhone 4, let alone the 4S.

 

My late 2010 Quad i7 iMac is still a very powerful and very capable machine - yet it apparently cannot handle streaming video to a little black box. So the main feature I was after in Mountain Lion, Air Play mirroring, I cannot have.

 

If this computer cost £200, then fair enough - but it didn't: this is £2000 worth of computer, it is less than 2 years old and for some bullshit reason I cannot have AirPlay mirroring. I can handle virtual machines, Photoshop CS5, Dreamweaver CS5, 5 way skype conference calls, Excel 2011, iOS simulator, Mail, Outlook 2011, iChat, Safari and Remote Desktop all at once, yet it can't stream video to an Apple TV.

 

Bull. Shit.

 

Its artificial limitations at its finest.

 

Microsoft may be backwards and confusing 95% of the time, but you cannot deny that they beat the competition with a stick when it comes to support. WindowsXP is 11 years old this year and you still get regular security updates to it! Windows 2000 was fully supported until mid 2010!

 

</slightly-off-topic-rant>

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post #90 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

 

Quartz window manager doesn't have any resolution limit like QuickDraw or Windows GDI and can easily manage heterogeneous resolution UI done on iOS and retina MBP. Unified IDE for mobile products who share the same touch input principe and same resources limitations make a much better ecosystem either for devs and consumers than Microsoft approach of lets WP8 being alone in is corner while creating a new third platform (WindowsRT) which can't run either WP8 or Windows 8 apps.

 

I wasn't talking about rendering high resolutions, but instead of the system being ready to deploy high resolution interfaces. Even OS X needed changes when MBP Retina came out. Could have Apple released the iPhone with iOS 3? No?

 

 

As for RT, I stand by my thought that it's still better than doing minimal changes on a phone OS and putting it on a 10 inch tablet.

 

 

Quote:
Beside sharing the same Windows name, Microsoft has never put any effort into unifying their ecosystem, each Microsoft platform has their own apps and can't be shared across Microsoft product line, right now Microsoft have 4 distinct platform (counting the Xbox) with no way for a user to buy one apps and run it everywhere nor a way for a developper to create one apps and reach a unified ecosystem that will grown overtime. 

 

Which is why Microsoft is making it so Windows 8 apps can be ported to WP8 as easily as possible....



 

Quote:
Now with their new rebooted WP8 platform, Microsoft is telling to all WP7 developer to redo their apps once again or vanish.  And my prediction is Microsoft will somehow merge WP8 and Windows RT in the future, rebooting his IDE once again. 


They have explicitly said that any and all existing WP7 apps can run on WP8. Even resolution differences are being handled.

Once again I must ask: what features from WP8 are just bling?

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post #91 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

To reiterate a point I made earlier in this thread;

 

Windows Phone 7.8 and Windows Phone 8 can run the same application and have the same features. The only difference between the two is that 7.8 is meant for older hardware platforms and 8 has APIs and support for newer hardware (such as NFC and Multi-Core processors).

 

Microsoft Will also keep updating WP7.8 for 18 months after its release.

 

So no, WP7 developers will not have to redo their apps and users of older hardware are not forgotten.

 

Now lets compare that with Apple:

 

Want the new Maps? Buy a 4s.

Want Siri? Buy a 4s.

Want Air Play Mirroring on your Mac? Apple TV 2 and a Mac from 2011 or newer.

 

Its been shown that the iPhone 4 can handle Siri (and theoretically, the new maps as well) and my Nokia Lumia 900 with its single core CPU does all the things Siri can do without question (using the Microsoft "TellMe" software) and it has the brilliant Nokia Maps software and SatNav pre-installed. The 3GS is even worse, yet the Lumia 610 sells for £150 Pay As You Go (more than half the price of the 3GS on PAYG) and has all the features of the flagship Lumia 900 where the 3GS struggles to keep up feature wise with the iPhone 4, let alone the 4S.

 

My late 2010 Quad i7 iMac is still a very powerful and very capable machine - yet it apparently cannot handle streaming video to a little black box. So the main feature I was after in Mountain Lion, Air Play mirroring, I cannot have.

 

If this computer cost £200, then fair enough - but it didn't: this is £2000 worth of computer, it is less than 2 years old and for some bullshit reason I cannot have AirPlay mirroring. I can handle virtual machines, Photoshop CS5, Dreamweaver CS5, 5 way skype conference calls, Excel 2011, iOS simulator, Mail, Outlook 2011, iChat, Safari and Remote Desktop all at once, yet it can't stream video to an Apple TV.

 

Bull. Shit.

 

Its artificial limitations at its finest.

 

Microsoft may be backwards and confusing 95% of the time, but you cannot deny that they beat the competition with a stick when it comes to support. WindowsXP is 11 years old this year and you still get regular security updates to it! Windows 2000 was fully supported until mid 2010!

 

</slightly-off-topic-rant>

is the 18 month WP support offical? sounds fair, I just hadn't seen it mention before. It is better than the lack of official support that WM (ever) had.

 

 

 

with regard to artificial limits, yep they suck. Even if apple or ms decide that your experience on a one or two generations old computer might be sub par, I think that you should be given the opportunity to try it.


Edited by hungover - 7/18/12 at 1:56pm
post #92 of 112

Hey, what a shocker! It seems no one can actually care to explain why WP8 features are just bling!

That coming from people frequenting websites about a company that bothers to add gyroscopic effects to their reflections, but not to make sure their voice control system has more than just basic commands for the Music app!

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post #93 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac View Post

 

I wasn't talking about rendering high resolutions, but instead of the system being ready to deploy high resolution interfaces. Even OS X needed changes when MBP Retina came out. Could have Apple released the iPhone with iOS 3? No

 

 

OSX changes for MBP Retina was pretty minor and cosmetic, ever since 10.3 you can change the UI DPI in Quartz Dev tool.  I don't see anything that could limit Apple to come out with retina display on desktop or mobile earlier beside the hardware wasn't ready yet for mass production.  Still the competition as no response to Retina display. 

 

As for RT, I stand by my thought that it's still better than doing minimal changes on a phone OS and putting it on a 10 inch tablet.

 

You seams to believe iOS is built from the ground up on a phone, like Android, BlackBerry, WinMo. Actually iOS as begun is life on the tablet prototype first in Apple lab as a fork of OSX.  The key here is unifying development for device who shares the same controls principles and architecture (Mobile Touch input vs Desktop Keyboard and mouse) and split phones and tablets on a UI level only, you don't need a third and separated development environment like Microsoft is doing with RT.  I'm pretty i'm not the only one who has loved to rediscover their iPhone apps on the iPad when it first come out, and still today I will much prefer buy an "universal" apps than ones only made for iPhone or iPad.

 


Which is why Microsoft is making it so Windows 8 apps can be ported to WP8 as easily as possible....

 

 

What Microsoft have specifically announced will make porting apps between Windows 8 and WP8 as easily as possible, having the same kernel doesn't gives any guarantee.  Have you read news lately about problems to port third party browser and plugins on WindowsRT?  iOS on a developement level is the same as Mac OS X with all is core API (Quicktime, Quartz, Core Audio, Core Video), and even brings back iOS API to OSX (ex; Core Location), have you seen how many iOS apps have been ported back to the Mac Apps Store? Which is not true on Windows ecosystem, Windows RT, WP8 and Windows 8 doesn't share the same APIs and IDE. Even Microsoft is unable to port Office on other platform, they redo everything from scratch on all platform, and current beta of Office for Windows 8 are unusable on touch device, Windows RT version of Office will be a completely different beast. Truth is, DCOM apps never was easily portable and still being use by majority of apps on Windows, including Microsoft own apps.

 

 

 

They have explicitly said that any and all existing WP7 apps can run on WP8. Even resolution differences are being handled.

 

Yes, and they explicitly said they depreciated WP7 apps and WP8 Metro apps won't run on any current Windows phone.  And for all those existing WP7 apps they will be second grade apps on WP8. WP7 has being a big mistake for Microsoft and will be remember as a transitional OS, they kill WinMo ecosytem to bring a half breed OS. 

 

 

​Once again I must ask: what features from WP8 are just bling?

 

What key feature brings WP8 over the competition? I've watched Microsoft keynotes on WP8 and Surface, and I haven't yet see any feature who fondamentally add something new to mobile computing. Microsoft biggest features and WP7.8 selling point is the fact you can now arrange tiles sizes as you like. That what I called bling for fanboy, it won't bring better apps to this new born platform.  

 


That coming from people frequenting websites about a company that bothers to add gyroscopic effects to their reflections, but not to make sure their voice control system has more than just basic commands for the Music app!

 

I think if you are curious about technologies underneath user interface, you should watch WWDC sessions and learn how crucial it is to have good and diversified API for making a great and rich apps platform. Something Microsoft has yet to prove with WP8


Edited by BigMac2 - 7/19/12 at 12:04pm
post #94 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

Windows Phone 7.8 and Windows Phone 8 can run the same application and have the same features. The only difference between the two is that 7.8 is meant for older hardware platforms and 8 has APIs and support for newer hardware (such as NFC and Multi-Core processors).

 

 

Rubbish, WP7.8 an 8 doesn't have the same features (it doesn't even share the same browser) and the same kernel. WP7.8 is still based on WinCE kernel, only silverlight apps will run on 7.8 and 8.  Compiled C apps made for WP8 won't run on 7.8. 

post #95 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

is the 18 month WP support offical? sounds fair, I just hadn't seen it mention before. It is better than the lack of official support that WM (ever) had.

 

 

 

with regard to artificial limits, yep they suck. Even if apple or ms decide that your experience on a one or two generations old computer might be sub par, I think that you should be given the opportunity to try it.

From what I've read, yes the 18 months is official. Which is why I'm more than happy to keep my iPhone neatly in its box.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

 

Rubbish, WP7.8 an 8 doesn't have the same features (it doesn't even share the same browser) and the same kernel. WP7.8 is still based on WinCE kernel, only silverlight apps will run on 7.8 and 8.  Compiled C apps made for WP8 won't run on 7.8. 

C# and VB via Silverlight or XNA all compile down to one language: CLR (Common Language Runtime). Applications can either be developed for WP8 only using CLR as well as C/C++, or you can develop for both using CLR alone. C/C++, according to Microsoft, is to get more people to develop for both Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 simultaneously since both will be portable; but Microsoft have shot themselves in the foot because CLR is the platform they are still pushing like crazy and have built a giant developer network around it. The vast majority of their consumer base will be using the [dot]NET framework.

 

Just look at the XBOX; you can program in C++, but only multi-million dollar game companies actually do. The vast majority (if not everything) in the XBLA is done with XNA.

 

Yes, I am aware that WP7.8 is not getting IE10Mobile. But its just little enhancements and some extra HTML5 events. It still doesn't matter because, if you visit the vast majority of web sites with internet explorer then hit F12, you'll see that its running in either IE8 or IE7 mode anyway. Even sites like British Airways run in IE7 standards mode.

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post #96 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

C# and VB via Silverlight or XNA all compile down to one language: CLR (Common Language Runtime). Applications can either be developed for WP8 only using CLR as well as C/C++, or you can develop for both using CLR alone. 

 

Yes every language based on .NET got compile into bitcodes just like Java or LLVM, that doesn't include DCOM and non-.NET VB which still represent the majority of apps on Windows. Beside, you don't address directly the fact that WP7.8, WP8, WinRT and Windows 8 doesn't shares the same basic API.

 

FYI, no sane developer codes directly bitcode,

post #97 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by breezebreeze View Post
Why people here all have a sharp toungue?

 

For the same reason that many come here to say absolutely nothing but bad things about Apple.

 

Quote:
…W8 will definitely be better.

 

Well, we know someone who hasn't used it…


Edited by Tallest Skil - 7/20/12 at 9:47am

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #98 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

 

Yes every language based on .NET got compile into bitcodes just like Java or LLVM, that doesn't include DCOM and non-.NET VB which still represent the majority of apps on Windows. Beside, you don't address directly the fact that WP7.8, WP8, WinRT and Windows 8 doesn't shares the same basic API.

 

FYI, no sane developer codes directly bitcode,

I never said anyone develops directly in bit code. Why would you develop directly in bit code? What? What? W h a t?

You program with a framework like .NET and that does all the hard work for you and compiles down into bit code.

 

It depends what you mean by "API". Do you mean WinRT? Win32? .NET? This is another reason to use .NET for development (along with every tool for winphone development uses .NET) for coding. One giant API layer that works across all platforms; thanks to CLR being open source and to MONO for bringing it to no Windows Systems. Did you know you can develop for iPhone and Android in C#.NET? :)

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post #99 of 112

As a former Apple employee and current Nokia employee, I don't see why any Apple fan should hate on Nokia and want them and/or WP to fail.

 

It's not the 90s, guys. Microsoft isn't the enemy anymore. Google is. Any Apple fan with an ounce of strategic sense should support Nokia/Windows Phone as a bulwark against Android hegemony

post #100 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

 

Rubbish, WP7.8 an 8 doesn't have the same features (it doesn't even share the same browser) and the same kernel. WP7.8 is still based on WinCE kernel, only silverlight apps will run on 7.8 and 8.  Compiled C apps made for WP8 won't run on 7.8. 

As a Nokia Developer Relations employee, I will happily let the record straight. "only Silverlight apps" will work but we are still telling developers to target 7.8 UNLESS they need 8-specific features (native code, NFC, etc).

post #101 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

is the 18 month WP support offical? sounds fair, I just hadn't seen it mention before. It is better than the lack of official support that WM (ever) had.

 

Yes.

post #102 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirKneeland View Post

As a former Apple employee and current Nokia employee, I don't see why any Apple fan should hate on Nokia and want them and/or WP to fail.

 

It's not the 90s, guys. Microsoft isn't the enemy anymore. Google is. Any Apple fan with an ounce of strategic sense should support Nokia/Windows Phone as a bulwark against Android hegemony

 

I appreciate that you can't necessarily confirm or deny any future plans, BUT,  if wp8 is up to scratch I would be looking for a device with a real (slide out) keyboard. I don't care if it adds a few more mm to the thickness but IMO on screen keyboards are fine until you want to do something that requires more accuracy than playing a piano with boxing gloves.

 

in your opinion would that be a phone designed in Finland or Taiwan?

post #103 of 112

If history is any indication, Nokia will be able to figure out so many designs for you to choose from. I think quite a few of them will sport a slide out keyboard. That is also one of the reasons why I wanted nokia to work on android. They had better durable designs and they put keyboards in!
 

post #104 of 112

Quote:

Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

I never said anyone develops directly in bit code. Why would you develop directly in bit code? What? What? W h a t?

You program with a framework like .NET and that does all the hard work for you and compiles down into bit code.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

"you can develop for both using CLR alone"

 
CLR is an bytecode language, Nuff said

Edited by BigMac2 - 7/23/12 at 6:05am
post #105 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

It depends what you mean by "API". Do you mean WinRT? Win32? .NET? This is another reason to use .NET for development (along with every tool for winphone development uses .NET) for coding. One giant API layer that works across all platforms; thanks to CLR being open source and to MONO for bringing it to no Windows Systems. Did you know you can develop for iPhone and Android in C#.NET? :)

 

FYI, an API is additional libs available for developer to reuse in is apps. I mean Networks libs, graphics, UI assets, files systems API, Touch input API, kernel API, Drivers API, crypto libs, I mean headers you need to import into your project before start coding, I'm talking about all dynamic library your Apps got to link with at runtime.  .NET runtime API alone needs to install at least 3 sets of concurrents Runtime libs (DLL) for running version 1.0, 2 and 3 .NET Apps. On Windows 7, all those library in DLL form are contains in the WinSXS directory and weight over 7GB, and keeps growing each time you install a new software or updates.

 

.NET is not one giant and uniform API Layer across all Microsoft platform, but one giant IDE that is feed from multiples and divers languages and API.  While the Xbox, WP8 and WinRT can all runs .NET apps, you can't cross-compile the same apps on all platform because they doesn't share the same sets of basics API.

 

Having open source MONO will help to bring C# to other no-Windows platform, but it won't bring Microsoft proprietary API to other platform, like UI elements, Windows security, File system API, which complicate ports of existing Windows apps who use proprietary Windows API like Office to other platform.  Same apply for Objective-C, while being available open source, Apple's proprietary OSX API won't be port on other platform, making straight port difficult. 


Edited by BigMac2 - 7/23/12 at 7:24am
post #106 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirKneeland View Post

As a Nokia Developer Relations employee, I will happily let the record straight. "only Silverlight apps" will work but we are still telling developers to target 7.8 UNLESS they need 8-specific features (native code, NFC, etc).

 

Thank you for your precision but native code is a big deal here, silverlight apps are second grade and transitional to WP8 platform.  Once WP7.8 forgotten they will be no reason to keep coding silverlight apps. 

post #107 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

FYI, an API is additional libs available for developer to reuse in is apps. I mean Networks libs, graphics, UI assets, files systems API, Touch input API, kernel API, Drivers API, crypto libs, I mean headers you need to import into your project before start coding, I'm talking about all dynamic library your Apps got to link with at runtime.  .NET runtime API alone needs to install at least 3 sets of concurrents Runtime libs (DLL) for running version 1.0, 2 and 3 .NET Apps. On Windows 7, all those library in DLL form are contains in the WinSXS directory and weight over 7GB, and keeps growing each time you install a new software or updates.

.NET is not one giant and uniform API Layer across all Microsoft platform, but one giant IDE that is feed from multiples and divers languages and API.  While the Xbox, WP8 and WinRT can all runs .NET apps, you can't cross-compile the same apps on all platform because they doesn't share the same sets of basics API.

Having open source MONO will help to bring C# to other no-Windows platform, but it won't bring Microsoft proprietary API to other platform, like UI elements, Windows security, File system API, which complicate ports of existing Windows apps who use proprietary Windows API like Office to other platform.  Same apply for Objective-C, while being available open source, Apple's proprietary OSX API won't be port on other platform, making straight port difficult. 

That wasn't a cue to tell me what each API is; I know what an API is. I was asking what API layer you were specifically referring to.

You've never used mono/.NET, have you?

Mono is used to bring CLR to non Microsoft platforms and quite a lot of bugs have been ironed out - the only thing missing is WinForms, but a lot of the functionality if replicated in GTK# (if not all). It goes back to what I've stated before, the only thing that will need changing is the GUI - doesn't matter on the platform as long as a complete CLR implementation is present. You can program an application in C#.NET for windows phone, then take the code and put it into mono - its still C# and it'll still work - the only thing that will need changing? About 99% of it will just be rebuilding the GUI.

And, this may shock you, but The Sims 3 is built on MONO, and that runs fine n both MacOS and Windows. *GASP!*

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post #108 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post


That wasn't a cue to tell me what each API is; I know what an API is. I was asking what API layer you were specifically referring to.
You've never used mono/.NET, have you?
Mono is used to bring CLR to non Microsoft platforms and quite a lot of bugs have been ironed out - the only thing missing is WinForms, but a lot of the functionality if replicated in GTK# (if not all). It goes back to what I've stated before, the only thing that will need changing is the GUI - doesn't matter on the platform as long as a complete CLR implementation is present. You can program an application in C#.NET for windows phone, then take the code and put it into mono - its still C# and it'll still work - the only thing that will need changing? About 99% of it will just be rebuilding the GUI.
And, this may shock you, but The Sims 3 is built on MONO, and that runs fine n both MacOS and Windows. *GASP!*

 

Winform is a great example thank you, Winforms is a UI asset include in Desktop version of .NET IDE but not available on XNA, XBox, WP8 and Windows RT, so any apps that use it on Windows need their UI to be completely redone with other APIs to be ported on other Microsoft platform.  Bring everything to CLR bytecode doesn't mean every CLR VM will be able to run every CLR apps.  .NET VM is just like JavaVM, while technically Android apps are Java, they won't run on any other JavaVM beside Android because uses of proprietary Android API.  Apple got a much greater unification of its platform where Apps can be port between iPhone and iPad without changing a single line of code, and port to or from MacOSX without changing much the code.

 

And I do know The Sims 3 is built on MONO, but the mac and the PC version of the Sims is forked and maintain as 2 separated product by EA developers and with help of few in-house multi-millions dollars "conversion" DirectX-OpenGL libs, not something a indie developer can get it's hands on. 


Edited by BigMac2 - 7/23/12 at 10:03am
post #109 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

 

Winform is a great example thank you, Winforms is a UI asset include in Desktop version of .NET IDE but not available on XNA, XBox, WP8 and Windows RT, so any apps that use it on Windows need their UI to be completely redone with other APIs to be ported on other Microsoft platform.  Bring everything to CLR bytecode doesn't mean every CLR VM will be able to run every CLR apps.  .NET VM is just like JavaVM, while technically Android apps are Java, they won't run on any other JavaVM beside Android because uses of proprietary Android API.  Apple got a much greater unification of its platform where Apps can be port between iPhone and iPad without changing a single line of code, and port to or from MacOSX without changing much the code.

 

And I do know The Sims 3 is built on MONO, but the mac and the PC version of the Sims is forked and maintain as 2 separated product by EA developers and with help of few in-house multi-millions dollars "conversion" DirectX-OpenGL libs, not something a indie developer can get it's hands on. 

Stop.

Talking.

About.

Bytecode!

 

The Sims 3 uses OpenGL, not DirectX. Those libraries are not needed. But the Sims 3 is a prime example of something complicated that is multi-platform using a cross platform language like Mono.

 

Also, with regards to winforms, they are only available on desktop windows and, AS I HAVE STATED TIME AND TIME AGAIN, you will have to tinker with the GUI for ports unless you use something cross platform like QT or GTK#. QT recommended.

 

For mobile platforms using Mono (for Android and iOS) and .NET (Windows Phone) you wont have to change much at all. Even if you do have to change quite a bit, it'll be a lot easier and quicker than programming each version in their own language.

 

If you can't see the advantages of programming applications on multiple platforms in the same language, then this conversation is over. :b

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post #110 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

Stop.

Talking.

About.

Bytecode!

 

The Sims 3 uses OpenGL, not DirectX. Those libraries are not needed. But the Sims 3 is a prime example of something complicated that is multi-platform using a cross platform language like Mono.

 

Also, with regards to winforms, they are only available on desktop windows and, AS I HAVE STATED TIME AND TIME AGAIN, you will have to tinker with the GUI for ports unless you use something cross platform like QT or GTK#. QT recommended.

 

For mobile platforms using Mono (for Android and iOS) and .NET (Windows Phone) you wont have to change much at all. Even if you do have to change quite a bit, it'll be a lot easier and quicker than programming each version in their own language.

 

If you can't see the advantages of programming applications on multiple platforms in the same language, then this conversation is over. :b

 

EA uses Transgaming Cider which mimic private Win32 APIs for bringing PC titles to Mac, it uses OpenGL thru a series of Direct X Shaders JIT conversion libraries. Have you ever peek into a Mac version of The Sim 3? you instantly see DLLs, Windows resources and other Wine hacks to make it work. This is a non-optimal way to quickly port games, It work on a Mac by wasting resources, but you can't apply this "solution" for mobile devices. Mono just like C, C++ or any language along doesn't suffice to make a real cross-platform games. Without third party API like Cider, Mono is not more or less portable than open source Objective-C

 

here is some info: http://transgaming.com/cider/

 

QT is a horrible desktop oriented UI assets and no where near usable for mobile platform, you won't see any QT or GTK based apps on WP8, iOS or Android.

 

If you can't see how mobile apps with touch input need special attention that current desktop UI and API can't handle well, the reason why Apple have split iOS and OSX development on a UI level only. And all of this have nothing to do with which language you use but more on which API you can use depending you are on a mobile or a desktop OS. Then you're right, the conversation is over

 

P.S. You are the one talking about CLR bytecode, making everything magically working everywhere.  In real world apps, things are not so magical and CLR alone is only the iceberg tips for bringing true cross-platform apps. 


Edited by BigMac2 - 7/23/12 at 4:31pm
post #111 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post

 

EA uses Transgaming Cider which mimic private Win32 APIs for bringing PC titles to Mac, it uses OpenGL thru a series of Direct X Shaders JIT conversion libraries. Have you ever peek into a Mac version of The Sim 3? you instantly see DLLs, Windows resources and other Wine hacks to make it work. This is a non-optimal way to quickly port games, It work on a Mac by wasting resources, but you can't apply this "solution" for mobile devices. Mono just like C, C++ or any language along doesn't suffice to make a real cross-platform games. Without third party API like Cider, Mono is not more or less portable than open source Objective-C

 

here is some info: http://transgaming.com/cider/

 

QT is a horrible desktop oriented UI assets and no where near usable for mobile platform, you won't see any QT or GTK based apps on WP8, iOS or Android.

 

If you can't see how mobile apps with touch input need special attention that current desktop UI and API can't handle well, the reason why Apple have split iOS and OSX development on a UI level only. And all of this have nothing to do with which language you use but more on which API you can use depending you are on a mobile or a desktop OS. Then you're right, the conversation is over

 

P.S. You are the one talking about CLR bytecode, making everything magically working everywhere.  In real world apps, things are not so magical and CLR alone is only the iceberg tips for bringing true cross-platform apps. 

Lets go through this step by step.

 

 

Quote:
EA uses Transgaming Cider which mimic private Win32 APIs for bringing PC titles to Mac, it uses OpenGL thru a series of Direct X Shaders JIT conversion libraries.

Open GL. Even on Windows.

Why would it use OpenGL through DirectX? Both are separate APIs. That makes absolutely no sense.

 

http://www.bing.com/search?q=sims+3+open+gl&form=APPCS1

 

 

Quote:
you instantly see DLLs, Windows resources and other Wine hacks to make it work

It uses Mono; as Mono C# is a re-implementation of C#.NET, it will use the same file extensions. True, it does use Cider, but it requires no more power than the windows counterpart and it is still written in Mono. From what I can find, the use of Cider with the Sims 3 is only for trivial things. You still script everything via Mono, even on MacOS X you can install mono and get jiggy with Modding the game without even touching Cider or compiling .NET ready code.

 

 

Quote:
QT is a horrible desktop oriented UI assets and no where near usable for mobile platform, you won't see any QT or GTK based apps on WP8, iOS or Android.

 

I know its a desktop UI, when did I say it wasn't?

 

 

 

Quote:
If you can't see how mobile apps with touch input need special attention that current desktop UI

 

In every single post I've made, I've stated that you will need to rewrite the GUI. I'm talking about the actual application logic and always have been.

 

 

Quote:
And all of this have nothing to do with which language you use but more on which API you can use depending you are on a mobile or a desktop OS

 

Which is why you use something like Mono and, more recently, Adobe AIR. I know that each OS has a different set of APIs but these cross platform run times use the same syntax on all systems and the runtime underneath it all does all the hard work of taking said syntax and pushing it towards the correct API. That is the point of these systems.

 

 

Quote:
You are the one talking about CLR bytecode

 

CLR == .NET

You're the one talking about editing byte code directly. :-)

 

 

Quote:
making everything magically working everywhere

I never said that.

 

 

 

 

So I conclude with this, are you misunderstanding what I am saying? Am I being too obtuse? Am I not explaining myself correctly? Are you misunderstanding what I am getting at when I'm talking about all these cross platform run times? (hint, its not the GUI I'm talking about)

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post #112 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89 View Post

 

Open GL. Even on Windows.

Why would it use OpenGL through DirectX? Both are separate APIs. That makes absolutely no sense.

 

 

EA, Ubisoft, Disney and other major games editor who make Mac port are using Cider.  Cider is an virtualization software that offers a shortcuts development by pipping Windows call and Direct X call into conversion library at runtime, it's basically a Win32 and Direct X virtualization engine like Wine.  So yes The Sim 3 use Direct X on Windows, and OpenGL on mac, but not by running native MacOSX and OpenGL code, those are generated at runtime by Cider.

 

BTW your links is boggus, go find your info direct to the source next time instead of giving amateur blog result. 

 

Quote:
It uses Mono; as Mono C# is a re-implementation of C#.NET, it will use the same file extensions. True, it does use Cider, but it requires no more power than the windows counterpart and it is still written in Mono. From what I can find, the use of Cider with the Sims 3 is only for trivial things. You still script everything via Mono, even on MacOS X you can install mono and get jiggy with Modding the game without even touching Cider or compiling .NET ready code.

I don't call something that need to run into a virtualization software real cross-platform development. And saying Cider is for trivial things show how much you don't understand it.

 

 

 

Quote:
Which is why you use something like Mono and, more recently, Adobe AIR. I know that each OS has a different set of APIs but these cross platform run times use the same syntax on all systems and the runtime underneath it all does all the hard work of taking said syntax and pushing it towards the correct API. That is the point of these systems.

This where you wrongly taught about Mono being a complete cross-platform development environment like Adobe AIR or Java, which is not.  Mono is only an open source C# compiler and runtime VM, it doesn't not include any system call and OS API need for any Apps to work with system resources. For cross-platform development, having the language is not enough, you need a sets of portable system API to go with, those are parts of the operating system or third party software and won't be included in Mono. Using Mono for compiling C# codes on non-Windows platform doesn't gives any avantages over using open source Objective-C on windows, which is dumb in both case, for doing real cross-platform development you should use real platform agnostic language like C or C++ with real cross-platform API like SDL

 

Quote:

CLR == .NET

You're the one talking about editing byte code directly. :-)

 

I've aready reply to this with this quote of yours: 

 

Quote:
"you can develop for both using CLR alone"

 

How are you doing that without doing bytecode by hands?

 

Quote:
I know its a desktop UI, when did I say it wasn't?

Are we in the same forum thread? The discussion started about talking WP8 development and Nokia phone


Edited by BigMac2 - 7/24/12 at 10:40am
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