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iOS 6 message prompts speculation carriers may charge for 3G FaceTime - Page 2

post #41 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by imbrucewayne View Post


What makes this another plot of Google?

 

Maybe you need to keep up with the news (history now).

post #42 of 83

You have been warned......almost a million Sprint Users viewing/complaining about iPhone service:

 

http://community.sprint.com/baw/thread/78766?start=0&tstart=0

post #43 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

More likely, this might be the carrot to get you off your grandfathered unlimited data plan. Facetime didn't work when you signed your contract and it will continue to not work. Therefore, you are getting the service you signed up for. If you want Facetime, upgrade your plan (ie, drop your unlimited plan). Charging extra for a particular data service would likely land them in a lot of hot water with the regulators. But not giving you a service you never had would be very defendable by the carriers.

FaceTime is not a service AT&T offers. Netflix wasn't there when I signed my contract, so I shouldn't be allowed to use it? Similarly, should AT&T be allowed to block any software released for iOS? No, you paid for your data, you should be allowed to use it. What's next, youtube, safari, mail, messages costs?
post #44 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

 

More likely, this might be the carrot to get you off your grandfathered unlimited data plan. Facetime didn't work when you signed your contract and it will continue to not work. Therefore, you are getting the service you signed up for. If you want Facetime, upgrade your plan (ie, drop your unlimited plan). Charging extra for a particular data service would likely land them in a lot of hot water with the regulators. But not giving you a service you never had would be very defendable by the carriers.

I actually voluntarily gave up my unlimited plan when I recently upgraded to my data only LTE hot spot. The AT&T rep helped me make the decision because he said "Would you rather hit your data limit and be throttled or hit your data limit and be charged $5?" Easy choice for me.

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post #45 of 83

This is interesting. I have a iPhone 4 with 5Gb hotspot, to tether to my iPad 3. the iPad is unrestricted when tethered, as it operates just like computer data would. My guess is that in order for a sim locked device to be authorized, it has to have a tiered data plan. Which sucks for people who pay full price for their device, in order to keep their unlimited data plans. 

 

Btw, our FCC is the worst FCC in history. They're only listening to carriers, and not the people who are forced to use them due to no competition in the wireless market. 

post #46 of 83

I will be upgrading two iPhones with the 5 hits this year. I had planned on switching to VZW. This reinforces that decision.

 

It's my data, I'll use it how I want. I wish I didn't have to pay to be a hot spot. It's my data!

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post #47 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

 

Verizon will no longer be honoring grandfathered unlimited data plans once the contract is up. You will have to select a new data package. So this will only be true until the turn-around of customers contracts who have unlimited data. 

 

Completely false. You can keep your unlimited plan as long as you like. The caveat is after June 28th, if you want to upgrade a device at subsidized pricing at the end of your contract, you will have change plans. However you are free to buy a device at full price, or use any device and renew your current contract (or not) and keep your data package. Comparing plans side by side, buying at full retail and your keeping current plan is STILL cheaper than subsidized pricing and new plan over 2 years. Food for thought.

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post #48 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98 View Post


FaceTime is not a service AT&T offers. Netflix wasn't there when I signed my contract, so I shouldn't be allowed to use it? Similarly, should AT&T be allowed to block any software released for iOS? No, you paid for your data, you should be allowed to use it. What's next, youtube, safari, mail, messages costs?

There is a small problem with an Apple App on an Apple partner carrier that requires instant bandwidth.  ATT wants to throttle the use of anything that expects realtime bandwidth bidirectionally from Apple (or ATT... eg. voice).  

 

Netflix... all downstream.   Facetime... as much or more 'UPSTREAM'  which has always been about 1/10th the capacity of downstream, and it's 'real time' (a 20 second delay on email, twitter, not a big deal... 20 second delay in a voice/visual conversation sucks).  ATT doesn't want everyone to jump onto the net and generate massive bottlenecks and failures.

 

ATT has no QoS on the data side, has limited upstream bandwidth, and has constantly failed in bandwidth delivery in general.  the latter was the issue with tethering.   So ATT is using $$ to keep everyone from doing it.  

 

Instead of doing the obvious and fixing their backhaul network.

post #49 of 83

This is ATT's version of Verizon's "Share Everything" plan.  However, ATT got the concept wrong, when they think of 'Share Everything', they are thinking of your money!

 

 

SADLY this is why I do not own a smart phone, iPhone or "others".  Anyway, I can't see doubling, now close to tripling my cell phone bill.

 

I wonder if this is what Steve Jobs had in mind when he first introduced the iPhone.  Maybe got suckered a little.  Apple reinvented the phone that's for sure, just not the phone bill THAT'S FOR SURE ALSO!

 

I wish Apple would create a semi smart phone, where you have limited options. I just want to check e-mail and maybe visit a website on wifi and that's it, but get to enjoy Apple's technology and product  build quality.

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post #50 of 83

Why don't they charge per app you use?  And then introduce app bundles.  And charge for the distance your bits travel.  And every time I lose at Angry Birds.

 

Skype wins again.

post #51 of 83

Was just thinking that myself...surprised but, glad to hear that...

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post #52 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post

There is a small problem with an Apple App on an Apple partner carrier that requires instant bandwidth.  ATT wants to throttle the use of anything that expects realtime bandwidth bidirectionally from Apple (or ATT... eg. voice).  

Netflix... all downstream.   Facetime... as much or more 'UPSTREAM'  which has always been about 1/10th the capacity of downstream, and it's 'real time' (a 20 second delay on email, twitter, not a big deal... 20 second delay in a voice/visual conversation sucks).  ATT doesn't want everyone to jump onto the net and generate massive bottlenecks and failures.

ATT has no QoS on the data side, has limited upstream bandwidth, and has constantly failed in bandwidth delivery in general.  the latter was the issue with tethering.   So ATT is using $$ to keep everyone from doing it.  

Instead of doing the obvious and fixing their backhaul network.

This is the line they feed us but it's BS. Show me hard data that indicates the network can't handle the congestion, and I'll tell AT&T to go ahead and throttle during those peak times of congestion, not to artificially cripple the hardware and software capabilities. The truth of the matter is tethering, iMessage, FaceTime, etc. all affect AT&T's revenue stream, nothing else. If freeing congestion were what this was really about, we'd see temporary throttling, not the blanket treatment that AT&T implements on unlimited plans exclusively. We wouldn't see the CEO complaining about iMessage tearing into their text messaging plans. Everything AT&T does and says strikes me as disingenuous, except when they talk about ways to increase revenue.

And the reason the backhaul is in trouble is because it is over saturated. They keep adding more and more subscribers, even to the point where the network can't handle it. The problem isn't VOIP, Tethering, or any other software feature/app. It's about AT&T resisting at all costs becoming solely a data dumb pipe.
post #53 of 83
Just like AT&T blocks the personal hotspot feature for the unlimited (throttled) data users, AT&T is obviously going to block them from using facetime over data too. There's nothing to suggest that they'll add a new charge if you're already paying for limited data (2G, 5G, 10G) but I guess AI just goes with the copy and paste tech pundit crowd.
post #54 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98 View Post


This is the line they feed us but it's BS. Show me hard data that indicates the network can't handle the congestion, and I'll tell AT&T to go ahead and throttle during those peak times of congestion, not to artificially cripple the hardware and software capabilities. The truth of the matter is tethering, iMessage, FaceTime, etc. all affect AT&T's revenue stream, nothing else. If freeing congestion were what this was really about, we'd see temporary throttling, not the blanket treatment that AT&T implements on unlimited plans exclusively. We wouldn't see the CEO complaining about iMessage tearing into their text messaging plans. Everything AT&T does and says strikes me as disingenuous, except when they talk about ways to increase revenue.
And the reason the backhaul is in trouble is because it is over saturated. They keep adding more and more subscribers, even to the point where the network can't handle it. The problem isn't VOIP, Tethering, or any other software feature/app. It's about AT&T resisting at all costs becoming solely a data dumb pipe.

 

 

 

ATT's network is oversaturated.   You agree to my point.  

 

I worked in Telephony, and the primary goal of 'network operations' was to operate the smallest amount of bandwidth that optimized profits (what is minimum amount of network we need to maximize the number of people who  DON'T drop the service).  The whole concept of 'Erlang' was a measure based on that (what level of congestion is just below when would people complain that 'circuits are busy, please try again later').  Why were there plans for 9pm-7am lower/free rates?  Those calls weren't cheaper to make... they were just shifting descretionary (non- business) calls to keep capacity demands lower during the day.  Charging for FaceTime does the same thing... Fewer people Facetiming with someone's kitten.;-)

 

I agree ATT is maximizing profits.  I don't agree that facetime cuts into call revenue.  Nor does messaging (if someone messages that much, they have to have both the 'infinite' plan and iMessage).  I'll give you tethering, as that was a product.

 

And I agree on your last point.   ATT and all the carriers are trying not to be a dumb pipe.  They want the customer (fighting Apple in the same manner that Dell/HP/Toshiba are fighting Microsoft now for the 'Windows Tablet Customer')

post #55 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_Me View Post

thats a failed idea.  Throttled is still unlimited.


Well, given that the only publicized case to go to small claims court was a loss for ATT, I'm not sure how you'd call it failed.

post #56 of 83
ive had no pop up or problem placing a FaceTime call on at&t's 3g network on my iPhone 4S
post #57 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by “BradBurnJr” View Post

ive had no pop up or problem placing a FaceTime call on at&t’s 3g network on my iPhone 4S

You must have already had it enabled when you upgraded from iOS 6 beta 2 to beta 3. I have yet to check to see myself if I get an error but I have not turned off FaceTime over 3G then turned it back on again. I bet if I did this I would then get an error.
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post #58 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by johndoe98 View Post


FaceTime is not a service AT&T offers. Netflix wasn't there when I signed my contract, so I shouldn't be allowed to use it? Similarly, should AT&T be allowed to block any software released for iOS? No, you paid for your data, you should be allowed to use it. What's next, youtube, safari, mail, messages costs?

 

True, but tethering isn't a service provided by the carriers either. It's a function of the phone. Yet they had no problem monetizing that. I'm not saying it's right. Just that it's a possibility.

 

And carrier protectionism isn't unique to American carriers. A good friend who lives in Germany is interferred with in trying to use Skype on her Android phone. Even on wi-fi, the phone limits Skype calls to 15 minutes. We are disconnected at 15 minutes, on the dot, whenever she uses Skype on her phone (but not her computer or iPod touch, only the German cell phone disconnects us). And that's on wi-fi! I've never been able to test it on the cell data connection because it's too unreliable (in fact, it's completely useless on cell data).

post #59 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

I wish Apple would create a semi smart phone, where you have limited options. I just want to check e-mail and maybe visit a website on wifi and that's it, but get to enjoy Apple's technology and product  build quality.
Huge market opportunity there for Apple! And they can "stick it to the carriers" with a phone like that.
post #60 of 83

They need to just charge people for data. They just want to get more fees than their service is worth. That's what it sounds like. 

post #61 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU View Post

They need to just charge people for data. They just want to get more fees than their service is worth. That's what it sounds like. 

 

And stand in the way of innovation and progress by erecting artificial financial barriers. The carriers were given licenses to spectrum to promote the public good. It's time the Feds crack down on them and tell them to get out of the way and build reliable networks, or lose their licenses. Someone else will be happy to have their spectrum.

post #62 of 83

Such bullshit.

 

Why would I pay AT&T for this if I could use a different service that does the same damn thing for free?

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post #63 of 83
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Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

The carriers were given licenses to spectrum to promote the public good.

I thought they bought the spectrum to conduct business for a profit.

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post #64 of 83
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Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I thought they bought the spectrum to conduct business for a profit.

Those two goals are not inherently mutually exclusive.
Edited by johndoe98 - 7/17/12 at 3:25pm
post #65 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by noexpectations View Post

Purely speculation folks.

 

My guess is that the carriers want to formerly "warn" users before they use this feature as it will chew up MBs faster than any other App.

I would tend to agree.

post #66 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

[telcos] ....no different than Apple.

 

Gimme a break. It's just crazy to put Apple's customer satisfaction in the same light as the telco. You lose all credibility making a comparison like that. All businesses do worry about the bottom line but the telcos in the US are way beyond profit into greed. Apple maybe a lot of things but I can't, from experience, say they are greedy. Some here would but those are just the Apple whiners.

post #67 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_Me View Post

False.  If contract is up you can keep using your phone. No one forces you to upgrade. If you want to change your phone you can just purchase a phone via third party (full price). Who says you need to always be on contract. 

Phones are the cheapest part of owning a smartphone.  
But macxpress (whom you responded to) did not even mention phones at all.
If you have unlimited data, when you current contract is up, you will no longer have unlimited data. You will have to choose another data plan, even if you do not go on contract. You will not be allowed to keep unlimited data.
post #68 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

Charging-extra for FaceTime capability over 4G is a hugely moronic move if there is truth to that rumor.  If I pay $x/mo for a 2GB data plan, who the hell cares how I use that allotment?  That would be a seriously slippery slope the telecoms would be on if they pulled that stunt.

 

Ummm we have been riding that slippery slope for some time now. Both AT&T and Verizon HAS been pulling the stunt for sometime now nickel dime-ing us and charging extra for how you use your data. The data plan market pricing in the US is collusive IMO now and until customers are willing to stop buying telco's greed and extortion, we in the US will be raped by US telcos. You can rationalize how they have to make money but until consumers put action to their whine, nothing will change. Can you NOT use the phone long enough to send the message "I'm not going to take it anymore?" 

post #69 of 83
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Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

The FCC really has to step in here and give the carriers a choice: start following principles of network neutrality, or lose their license to the public airwaves. What's next, you have to pay for a data plan but pay extra to access the Web?

Don't forget, this is yet another area where Google (in conspiracy with Verizon) has plotted to harm consumers.

Not with this. They don't work with a best effort design. You need specific protocols active and they need QoS to ensure they get priority over all other packets being sent. There is absolutely nothing neutral about that.

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post #70 of 83
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Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

FaceTime operates over a data network, and is not part of their voice minutes.  FaceTime can be done over WiFi or hopefully soon, the 4G network.  Just with iMessage, it would not be that much of a stretch for Apple to forward voice calls as data, further denying the telecoms future revenue.  All this coming down is the primary reason imho that the telecoms are doing away with "unlimited" data plans.  It would not surprise me if in 5 years, most (if not all) communications on cell phones will be primarily VoIP-based.


Charging-extra for FaceTime capability over 4G is a hugely moronic move if there is truth to that rumor.  If I pay $x/mo for a 2GB data plan, who the hell cares how I use that allotment?  That would be a seriously slippery slope the telecoms would be on if they pulled that stunt.


It's a slippery slope and a tricky situation that could backfire but so far the carriers don't seem to be negatively affected by the biggest scam of all: SMS. I can't believe how much people pay for such small amounts of data. It doesn't even have the argument that carriers do have to invest and retool a network to accommodate a high yield of FaceTime protocol users. SMS is a best effort service. On top of that the data is sent over the down time between the carrier line. There only real cost is maintaining the data servers but the amount of data is so minimal per text that we're not talking a large investment and certainly nothing that comes close to 20¢ per SMS.

I do think they will charge for FaceTime but I think it will be a flat rate. That means it would still use your monthly data plan for sending and receiving but it would cost you x-amount for the privilege. There are pros and cons to this.

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post #71 of 83

I hope folks are not naive enough to think this wasn't coming. Wait till the isp's start nickel and diming folks that are streaming netflix. And they say disks are going by the way of the dinosaur. At least you don't get charged extra for them.

post #72 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkevwill View Post

I hope folks are not naive enough to think this wasn't coming. Wait till the isp's start nickel and diming folks that are streaming netflix. And they say disks are going by the way of the dinosaur. At least you don't get charged extra for them.

They might try but video streaming is inherently different from any realtime data. With video streaming — even if the video is "live" — it can maintain a buffer so that issues with the network won't be noticed until a threshold is met. This simply isn't the case with video conferencing and VoIP. The data is UDP to reduce overhead and there is no check to make sure that all packets have been received and pass inspection but if there is anything wrong there is nothing you can do about it in a live conversation.

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post #73 of 83

(1) anyone have a decently accurate figure on the typical data rate that FaceTime uses?  

 

(2) This is hardly surprising.  AT&T would charge users for breathing if they could find a way to do so.  

post #74 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

 

Verizon will no longer be honoring grandfathered unlimited data plans once the contract is up. You will have to select a new data package. So this will only be true until the turn-around of customers contracts who have unlimited data. 

Not true. They will honor it, but they will no longer subsidize your new phone. If you want to keep unlimited data then you have to pony up all the cash for your new phone.

post #75 of 83

I agree.  When I bought my first iPhone with AT&T, they asked me which plan I wanted.  One of the choices was "Unlimited."  That's what I selected and am paying for.  Bandwidth is bandwidth. Unlimited means just that...U-N-L-I-M-I-T-E-D.  Since AT&T decided that that that option was not in their best interest, they have chosen to "Throttle" my usage, charge for multi-device access if I decide to enable my "Personal Hotspot" between my other devices, and now charge me for FaceTime bandwidth if I choose to make a call through the cellular system.  

 

Seriously AT&T???  WTF???   You offered, I accepted, now you're reneging.   Suck it up and do the right thing.

post #76 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

The FCC really has to step in here and give the carriers a choice: start following principles of network neutrality, or lose their license to the public airwaves. What's next, you have to pay for a data plan but pay extra to access the Web?

 

Don't forget, this is yet another area where Google (in conspiracy with Verizon) has plotted to harm consumers.

I wonder what network neutrality has to do with 3G and cellphone data, but I guess I should not hold my breath yet. Moreover Google is a proponent not an opponent to network neutrality, so really I don't understand your 'point', if any.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality

http://www.google.com/help/netneutrality_letter.html

 

What you seem to forget is that it was actually Apple working with AT&T to block what should have been already included -paid with your data plan- tethering, and that the same tandem is now hypothetically working to make it possible to charge you over facetime on 3G.


Edited by Sensi - 7/17/12 at 6:45pm
post #77 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmason1270 View Post

Not true. They will honor it, but they will no longer subsidize your new phone. If you want to keep unlimited data then you have to pony up all the cash for your new phone.

And also never upgrade to an LTE phone, as a new LTE data plan will also require you to give up your grandfathered status.

post #78 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

[telcos] ....no different than Apple.

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

 

Gimme a break. It's just crazy to put Apple's customer satisfaction in the same light as the telco. You lose all credibility making a comparison like that. All businesses do worry about the bottom line but the telcos in the US are way beyond profit into greed. Apple maybe a lot of things but I can't, from experience, say they are greedy. Some here would but those are just the Apple whiners.

I don't understand all this hate on the telcos. I personally as well as our company have tons of services from AT&T and any time I have had to deal with customer services or support a real person has been on the phone within seconds and they have been knowledgeable and courteous and offered clear professional advice and solutions. I personally had Verizon prior to the iPhone and I found their service also exceeded my expectations especially compared to my experience with the likes of TWC. I think AT&T has every bit as quality support and customer service as Apple, maybe more so. For example in my experience you can't always get the right person on the phone at Apple. It took me literally 7 days to get a refund for a purchase that I tried to return using their online customer service.

 

I'll admit the voice call quality with AT&T leaves a bit to be desired but I'm not sure how to qualify that. Verizon voice quality was a bit better as I recall. I am very satisfied with my LTE hotspot from AT&T.

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post #79 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

Why would you use Facetime for audio only - hello, they call it "cellular phone service" - that old favorite we all used to use a lot, unless you are bumping up against the antiquated call minutes limit, and need to use wifi on facetime?  This is what makes it so confusing to consumers - trying to get around the antiquated pricing structure that we now have, while trying not to get gauged too badly by the shark carriers.

This way you could get a data only plan! I know in Canada, 5GB plans for iPad are $35 so this would be significantly cheaper than me having to get voice, text and data for $60 a month. Sure, you wouldn't be able to send all your blackberry and Android friends texts or calls, but they will switch eventually. And if all else fails, tweet them or message them on Facebook lol
post #80 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmason1270 View Post

Not true. They will honor it, but they will no longer subsidize your new phone. If you want to keep unlimited data then you have to pony up all the cash for your new phone.

 

If you upgrade to LTE or get a new contract or get a subsidized phone you will get a new (not unlimited) data plan.

If you pay full price for a phone and do not go on contract, you can keep the unlimited plan but it will be 3G, not LTE.

 

"LTE is our anchor point for data share. So as you come through an upgrade cycle and you upgrade in the future, you will have to go onto a data share plan. And moving away from, if you will, the unlimited world and moving everyone into a tiered structure/data share type plan.

So when you think about our 3G base, a lot of our 3G base is unlimited. As they start migrating to 4G they will have to come off of unlimited and go into the data share plan. And that’s beneficial for us for many reason, obviously."

Verizon CFO Fran Shammo @ JP Morgan Media and Telecom conference in May 2012


Edited by Chris_CA - 7/17/12 at 10:57pm
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