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Portuguese consumer group to sue Apple over AppleCare

post #1 of 41
Thread Starter 
The Portuguese Association for Consumer Protection (DECO) announced intentions to move forward with a lawsuit against Apple over information provided on the company's website which allegedly misleads buyers into purchasing the add-on AppleCare Protection Plan.

In a statement issued early Wednesday, first reported by Portuguese language Apple blog iPhoneTuga, the non-profit DECO claimed the potential suit comes after "several attempts" to correct allegedly deceptive wording on the iPhone maker's website pertaining to the for-pay AppleCare Protection Plan.

The grievance is similar to a separate set of circumstances in Italy where Apple was fined some $1.2 million for "unfair consumer practices." In that case the Italian Antitrust Authority claimed Apple did not provide "clear information to customers on product assistance," or more specifically did not inform consumers of the gratis two-year warranty that comes with every product. While the standard Apple warranty is limited to one year, local regulations in that region require manufacturers to furnish two years of free service.

Apple Portugal
Apple's Portuguese AppleCare web page. | Source: Apple


DECO notes that Portuguese law is similar to Italy's as product defects are covered for a mandatory two years, a regulation Apple must follow if it seeks to sell products in the country. While the two countries' laws reach an identical goal in practice, the implementation is slightly different in the case of Portugal and is likely the issue's root cause.

Portuguese law presumes that a defect found within two years after a product is purchased was also present at time of delivery. This is counter to Apple's reportedly misleading claim that its warranty only applies to defects found at the time of delivery, a statement which seemingly suggests coverage does not extend beyond that point. In reality the product is protected for the required period and customers can choose to purchase AppleCare for an additional fee. The organization feels that this fact is not presented to consumers in a clear manner, falsely inflating the importance of the extended warranty.

A rough translation of the statement issued by DECO's Secretary General Jorge Morgado:


"The Portuguese and EU law gives a two-year guarantee for portables [and laptops], but Apple does not recognize this reality. After several attempts to enforce these rights, without success, we decided to proceed with legal action. We will require the court to restore legality because we have no doubt that the rights of consumers are being trampled."


It is unclear what damages if any DECO is seeking though a lawsuit is the group's only recourse as it is not a government body and thus cannot levy fines. Apple has not commented on the matter.
post #2 of 41

This will become more common once consumer groups set their focus on Apple.  I know our local (NZ) consumer agencies need to stand up.  Numerous computer suppliers offer extended warranties, of which are not required, because regardless of the official warrantee, our local Consumer Guarantees Act states that an item must be durable and fit for purpose.  

 

The hard view on computers is 

 

 

How long can I expect my goods to last?

If you have a computer and the warranty is for one year, that doesn’t mean that you expect a new computer to only last one year. It is reasonable to expect that a new computer would last at least five years.

 

But, because its harder for an individual to enforce the Act, a lot of people will pay for their own goods, especially when dealing with foreign support services, which Apple provides here

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post #3 of 41

First of all a correction, the actual name of the gentleman is Jorge Morgado,  not  George Morgad.

 

Second, it's a fair question. On the Apple's US and PT websites it stated that "For up to three years from your computer's original purchase date, the AppleCare Protection Plan" so... in the US it's the standard 1 year + 2 more. So you are buying two more years. On EU every product has 2 years of warranty so you are buying 1 more year it seams clear.
But the thing is that APPLE, in  many cases, is giving only one year warranty. Resellers like WORTEN, are even putting up signs saying that "in the case of any warranty issues with Apple products, those will be handled by Apple itself"-

 

So there are many grey areas. APPLE is not giving 2years of warranty, and the stores don't want to be liable, if APPLE is not by their side.

post #4 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by cycomiko View Post

This will become more common once consumer groups set their focus on Apple.  I know our local (NZ) consumer agencies need to stand up.  Numerous computer suppliers offer extended warranties, of which are not required, because regardless of the official warrantee, our local Consumer Guarantees 
Act states that an item must be durable and fit for purpose.  

The hard view on computers is 


How long can I expect my goods to last?



If you have a co
mputer and the warranty is for one year, that doesn’t mean that you expect a new co
mputer to only last one year. It is reasonable to expect that a new co
mputer would last at least five years.



 



But, because its harder for an individual to enforce the Act, a lot of people will pay for their own goods, especially when dealing with foreign support services, which Apple provides here



If these sorts of writings can indeed lead to class action type law suits or even nations suing then I would have thought the PC industry was in far worse shape than Apple in the long run. Not too many consumer level PCs are still working fine after five years. That said it mostly due to Microsoft not due to hardware so I'm not sure of the NZ authorities treat that differently.
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post #5 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonnu View Post

First of all a correction, the actual name of the gentleman is Jorge Morgado,  not  George Morgad.

Second, it's a fair question. On the Apple's US and PT websites it stated that "For up to three years from your computer's original purchase date, the AppleCare Protection Plan" so... in the US it's the standard 1 year + 2 more. So you are buying two more years. On EU every product has 2 years of warranty so you are buying 1 more year it seams clear.

But the thing is that APPLE, in  many cases, is giving only one year warranty. Resellers like WORTEN, are even putting up signs saying that "in the case of any warranty issues with Apple products, those will be handled by Apple itself"-

So there are many grey areas. APPLE is not giving 2years of warranty, and the stores don't want to be liable, if APPLE is not by their side.

I would agree it is confusing.
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post #6 of 41

Question: Does Apple make a profit on Applecare? If they do, I would question the ethics of it. It would be fair enough for the scheme to cover its costs, but it should be a service to customers rather than a source of profit.

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post #7 of 41

Wrong thread.

post #8 of 41

I think one time this 2 vs 1 year warranty problem should be solved on European Community, and not country-by-country level. Some EU institution should force Apple to operate according the law in the region. Selling this highly priced and "phenomenal" products Apple should make ensure its customers that Apple itself believes the products it produces can be problems free for at least 2 or 3 years worldwide.

Many products in EU have 3, and some even 5 years warranty by default.

post #9 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue View Post

Question: Does Apple make a profit on Applecare? If they do, I would question the ethics of it. It would be fair enough for the scheme to cover its costs, but it should be a service to customers rather than a source of profit.


All extended warranties are meant to be huge profit makers for the companies that sell them.  That's why many companies like Best Buy and others push their employees to sell the warranties to customers.  It's insurance, you don't expect insurance companies to be non-profit do you?

post #10 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonnu View Post

First of all a correction, the actual name of the gentleman is Jorge Morgado,  not  George Morgad.

 

Second, it's a fair question. On the Apple's US and PT websites it stated that "For up to three years from your computer's original purchase date, the AppleCare Protection Plan" so... in the US it's the standard 1 year + 2 more. So you are buying two more years. On EU every product has 2 years of warranty so you are buying 1 more year it seams clear.
But the thing is that APPLE, in  many cases, is giving only one year warranty. Resellers like WORTEN, are even putting up signs saying that "in the case of any warranty issues with Apple products, those will be handled by Apple itself"-

 

So there are many grey areas. APPLE is not giving 2years of warranty, and the stores don't want to be liable, if APPLE is not by their side.

 

Apparently it's not as open and shut as you make it out to be, or as I thought it was after the Italian verdict.  I was at the Apple Store in Dresden, Germany and chatted with a couple of the Genius Bar employees while they were trying to replace my defective factory unlocked iPhone 4s originally purchased in America (for anyone whose in that same situation they can't, must be replaced in North America...nonsense).  They said that the way the EU law reads and the German government has interpreted the second year only requires the manufacturer to replace products with flaws that existed at the time of delivery (not found at the time of delivery like the article says).  However at least in Germany it is not accepted that any flaw within 2 years must have been present at delivery.  The guys at the Genius Bar often have to go through this with people because they have some problem that developed with use after the first year but it isn't actually covered anymore.  So, there is something to be said for selling the AppleCare for the 2nd and 3rd years.

 

Some EU countries apparently have more consumer friendly interpretations of the law that do require 2 years of complete warranty, but it isn't a EU wide policy for 2 years of complete manufacturers warranty.

post #11 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue View Post

Question: Does Apple make a profit on Applecare? If they do, I would question the ethics of it. It would be fair enough for the scheme to cover its costs, but it should be a service to customers rather than a source of profit.

It they didn't make a profit, and just cover costs, you would probably find that third-party warranty companies would complain of anti-competitive behaviour.

 

Apple certainly do make a profit, why else would their warranty be more expensive than alternatives (and they have access to cheap spares)

post #12 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregInPrague View Post


All extended warranties are meant to be huge profit makers for the companies that sell them.  That's why many companies like Best Buy and others push their employees to sell the warranties to customers.  It's insurance, you don't expect insurance companies to be non-profit do you?

 



That's not the right comparison though. Apple is not an insurance company, they make consumer products which should work. If they don't work, it is their responsibility to redress their failing. If they make profit on selling additional warranty, there is a potential conflict of interest in that people will only purchase it if they believe there is a good chance the product will fail, otherwise why incur the extra expense. Apple will have a very good idea of the failure rate of their products and so could price the extra warranty accurately to cover that without looking to make a profit on it. So an extended warranty should be a customer service, not a backdoor profit steam in my view.

 

For  the record, I have never purchased  Applecare, which has been a good thing because all of the Apple products I've bought have lasted well beyond the three year period anyway, so I have only good personal experience of Apple's quality control.

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post #13 of 41

Brazil is as crazy pro-consumer as the US is crazy pro-business when it comes to consumer protection. Something in the middle is probably rational.

post #14 of 41

the eu members collectively agree a 'directive', but each member government is responsible for implementing the directive by enacting local legislation, which will be based on *their* interpretation of it

 

depending on political persuasion, that local legislation can vary quite remarkably from country to country

 

it's stupid, but, aside from the local politics, there's huge variation in the members' legal systems, and of course no government is willing to do the logical thing - harmonise - because suddenly we'd need far fewer politicians, civil servants, lawyers etc. and they'd see their power diminish, which won't happen: politicians are in it for power, they crave it above all else

 

people whine about how the eu did xyz, and local politicians will go rabble rousing whenever they see a chance to win a few votes or keep their snouts in the trough a bit longer, but the eu did nothing of the sort, it was the locals every time

post #15 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregInPrague View Post


All extended warranties are meant to be huge profit makers for the companies that sell them.  That's why many companies like Best Buy and others push their employees to sell the warranties to customers.  It's insurance, you don't expect insurance companies to be non-profit do you?

 



That's not the right comparison though. Apple is not an insurance company, they make consumer products which should work. If they don't work, it is their responsibility to redress their failing. If they make profit on selling additional warranty, there is a potential conflict of interest in that people will only purchase it if they believe there is a good chance the product will fail, otherwise why incur the extra expense. Apple will have a very good idea of the failure rate of their products and so could price the extra warranty accurately to cover that without looking to make a profit on it. So an extended warranty should be a customer service, not a backdoor profit steam in my view.

 

For  the record, I have never purchased  Applecare, which has been a good thing because all of the Apple products I've bought have lasted well beyond the three year period anyway, so I have only good personal experience of Apple's quality control.

I'm sure that Apple makes a fortune on Applecare.

 

I've generally found it useful on 1st generation products (e.g., the new retina MBP) where Apple tends to have relatively large issues, and worthless by the 3rd generation of a product where Apple has ironed out most of the bugs.

post #16 of 41

I dont get it, they are sueing on the word used on the Apple care box (which is retarded imo)?

or

are they sueing because Apple do not honor the free second year warranty (which makes more sense) ?

post #17 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonnu View Post

First of all a correction, the actual name of the gentleman is Jorge Morgado,  not  George Morgad.

Second, it's a fair question. On the Apple's US and PT websites it stated that "For up to three years from your computer's original purchase date, the AppleCare Protection Plan" so... in the US it's the standard 1 year + 2 more. So you are buying two more years. On EU every product has 2 years of warranty so you are buying 1 more year it seams clear.

But the thing is that APPLE, in  many cases, is giving only one year warranty. Resellers like WORTEN, are even putting up signs saying that "in the case of any warranty issues with Apple products, those will be handled by Apple itself"-

So there are many grey areas. APPLE is not giving 2years of warranty, and the stores don't want to be liable, if APPLE is not by their side.

Your analysis is incorrect.

AppleCare covers more than warranty items. If you have non-warranty damage to your phone during the first 2 years, AppleCare would cover it, but the warranty wouldn't - so you ARE getting more services during the entire 3 years for your money. Plus, Apple care offers services beyond repair of the product. AppleCare offers technical support and software support that are not covered by the warranty - so it's not like you're paying for nothing.

Now, granted, you're getting less in places where the warranty is 2 years than in the US, but if they didn't have to offer a 2 year warranty, AppleCare would probably cost more.

The only wild card is the bizarre Portuguese interpretation that any defect which occurs during the first 2 years must have been present at delivery. So if I drop my phone in the toilet or run over it with a car, that's a warranty expense?
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post #18 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by jukes View Post

I'm sure that Apple makes a fortune on Applecare.

 

I've generally found it useful on 1st generation products (e.g., the new retina MBP) where Apple tends to have relatively large issues, and worthless by the 3rd generation of a product where Apple has ironed out most of the bugs.

 

Since my 27" imac is in its third year, the hard drive and the graphic card both broke.  I am pretty glad I took the Apple care because botth repairs would had cost 600$.  I always take the apple care, but here in canada the mandadory warranty is 1 year. Note that the problems occured in the 3rd year, so a 2 year warranty would not had helped.

 

I also had a MBP break, in that case they had to replace the unit. With the new retina MBP being almost unrepairable, I sure hope people are taking Apple care on it. The new MBP is divided into costly modules for repairs :for example, if the webcamp breaks, they will need to replace the entire screen for 700$.


Edited by herbapou - 7/18/12 at 6:44am
post #19 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post



The only wild card is the bizarre Portuguese interpretation that any defect which occurs during the first 2 years must have been present at delivery. So if I drop my phone in the toilet or run over it with a car, that's a warranty expense?

 

No. Dropping on toilet or something like that is considered misapplication. The Portuguese law states that anything that breaks through normal use (and should be working normally) must be fixed or replaced with no cost to the consumer. Just that.

post #20 of 41
"Portuguese law presumes that a defect found within two years after a product is purchased was also present at time of delivery." Not really. How it works in England is that a product which does not last for a reasonable period of time is considered not of merchantable quality. The length of time is readily determined by small claims courts and two years is slightly less than the average upheld claim for consumer electronics. Consumer durables average about three years and so on. The EU has codified this in a directive which is still beneficial to manufacturers compared to court judgments, consumers can always try their hand at small claims court. If the item has been abused it is not covered, only if it has been used as one may reasonably expect, the expectations of course mostly being set by the manufacturers and retailers claims for the product. Another, bigger, difference with US law is that the contract is between the retailer and the customer, this makes the retailer responsible for everything and to my mind rightly so. The retailer can not tell the customer to take it up with the manufacturer, the retailer has a duty to ensure goods sold are of merchantable quality ie will do what they are advertised to do and last the time they should reasonable be expected. Retailers have to know more about the products they sell which means they can also better advise customers. The lemon in the batch, which is a manufacturing default even if it doesn't reveal for 23 months, is not the responsibility of the customer to fix. This doesn't stop retailers offering one year guarantees and trying to deny customers with substandard goods due service/recompense, some standing of ground is called for and usually the need to see the store manager. Guarantees usually carry the disclaimer "this does not affect your statutory rights" because the statutory rights often offer better protection than the guarantee. Retailers clearly have redress with suppliers according to their contracts with them, terms of those contracts can vary but the contract between retailer and consumer have narrower legal requirements. Apple are usually pretty good with out of warranty repairs so I don't understand why they can't stick to the law although I think some of it is a cultural difference with a misunderstanding of the role of a retailer. This issue has only arisen since Apple has had its own stores, third party resellers always have had to abide by the requirements of merchantable quality and the contract with the customer. I was amazed to find what poor service American consumers get, three months warranties and the retailer accepting no responsibility for what they sell and profit from.
post #21 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Portuguese law presumes that a defect found within two years after a product is purchased was also present at time of delivery. This is counter to Apple's reportedly misleading claim that its warranty only applies to defects found at the time of delivery, a statement which seemingly suggests coverage does not extend beyond that point. 
 

 

 

Since when does "reportedly misleading claim"  =  "Blatant falsehood"?

post #22 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregInPrague View Post

 

Apparently it's not as open and shut as you make it out to be, or as I thought it was after the Italian verdict.  They said that the way the EU law reads and the German government has interpreted the second year only requires the manufacturer to replace products with flaws that existed at the time of delivery (not found at the time of delivery like the article says).  However at least in Germany it is not accepted that any flaw within 2 years must have been present at delivery.  Some EU countries apparently have more consumer friendly interpretations of the law that do require 2 years of complete warranty, but it isn't a EU wide policy for 2 years of complete manufacturers warranty.

You really hit the nail on the head - the wording of the EU law is the problem and I believe the law also notes that it's assumed flaws did not exist at the time of delivery if 6 months have passed.  Apple's legal staff in Europe are fully aware of the law and have exploited it to ensure they can keep selling the warranties.  Also, the Apple warranty includes features such as technical support that aren't included in the EU warranty law.  As you noted, different countries (e.g. Italy) are interpreting the law more favorable to the consumer but ultimately the EU law will probably have to be changed.  

post #23 of 41

I'm in Portugal and I've bought Macs through the online store and never had a problem activating the 2nd year of warranty. And I have used it twice. The main difference is that I actually use an Apple certified repair service close by, which never let me down, repairing everything within 1-2 days.

 

I guess you can just take a look at http://www.apple.com/pt/buy/locator.

post #24 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

 

Since my 27" imac is in its third year, the hard drive and the graphic card both broke.  I am pretty glad I took the Apple care because botth repairs would had cost 600$.  I always take the apple care, but here in canada the mandadory warranty is 1 year. Note that the problems occured in the 3rd year, so a 2 year warranty would not had helped.

 

I also had a MBP break, in that case they had to replace the unit. With the new retina MBP being almost unrepairable, I sure hope people are taking Apple care on it. The new MBP is divided into costly modules for repairs :for example, if the webcamp breaks, they will need to replace the entire screen for 700$.

warranty or not, in the UK we have our sale of goods act which means products should be fit for purpose. You could take Apple to court claiming that a $2000+ computer should be expected to last at least 3 years.

 

Applecare still has benefits though such as on-site repair or advanced parts replacement.

post #25 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue View Post

Question: Does Apple make a profit on Applecare? If they do, I would question the ethics of it. It would be fair enough for the scheme to cover its costs, but it should be a service to customers rather than a source of profit.

 

It's unlikely that they are. Same with the training thing.

 

also,

 

1. my Portuguese is rough but I do believe that the first footnote is a reference to 'in addition to protections provided by the law'. Apple is not required to spell those out. Anymore than your landlord is required to spell out local rental law to you. 

 

2. Can AI stop misquoting the Italian law. It does NOT require service for two years point blank. It requires service or replacement for up to two years IF the item was defective at the time of delivery. And beyond six months after purchase the buyer has to prove it was defective at time of delivery. Which few to no customers will be able to do and thus make claim on the law. And they can only even attempt the claim with the person that sold it to them. So if they bought it at the Italian version of Best Buy or Joe's computers, that's who they go to. NOT Apple. Whereas with Apple Care the seller doesn't matter, in many cases the country doesn't matter. Nor does when the defect happen. All that matter is whether it can be proven that it was caused by the customer. If they can prove customer damage you are SOL, otherwise its covered. 

 

If the Portuguese law is the same, Apple isn't doing anything wrong. They aren't required to spend an hour telling every customer every law that applies to their stuff etc. And like in Italy there is no proof that someone bought a computer at Apple, could prove it was defective at time of delivery after the standard one year was up and Apple refused them service. So the claim can't be made that they weren't following the laws regardless of what they were or were not saying. 

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post #26 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregInPrague View Post

Some EU countries apparently have more consumer friendly interpretations of the law that do require 2 years of complete warranty, but it isn't a EU wide policy for 2 years of complete manufacturers warranty.

 

The Czech Republic and Poland are the only two that I know of that require 2 years flat coverage for anything that isn't clear user damage. Everyone else is as you were told in Germany, max period for assumption of 'delivery defect' that I have seen is 6 months. Also, every one of them requires that you go to the seller. In some countries that is not Apple as they don't have stores there. An issue I get to deal with a lot cause my job takes me all over the world at times. 

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post #27 of 41

Without giving away too much I will say pumping people up with Applecare is a big focus for apple.

 

I have pretty reliable evidence that newer macs have more average part failures then macs from say 4-5 years ago. If I was a theorist, I'd say this is an attempt to get people to buy more applecare.

post #28 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue View Post

That's not the right comparison though. Apple is not an insurance company, they make consumer products which should work. If they don't work, it is their responsibility to redress their failing. 

 

They do redress failings. If they delivered a defective product it is fair to say that that product will fail within the first year. Heck if it is defective it will likely fail in the first couple of months. 

 

Computers, iphones etc are complex items. It is possible to delivery a 100% perfect product that over a period of a year or so is worn down by customer use, being bounced around in the car, banged around in a school bag, overheats cause you left it in the sun etc and have a failure. That isn't Apple's fault. That's wear and tear and no law requires them to cover that. So unless I can prove without a doubt that despite my handling for say 18 months, I was sold a lemon, they don't have to cover it. And there's little to no way that I can prove that. No one can. 

 

Because my job takes me literally around the world I deal with a lot of different places for service. When I was on a location shoot outside of Prague last year we have a laptop that was acting up. There as no Apple Store near to us at the time so I went to a 3rd party repair shop. They wanted me to pay $200 just to diagnose the issue and then parts which started at $400 for a new hard drive and went up. It was a 2.5 year old laptop that we did have Apple Care on but this shop wasn't an Apple authorized provider so they wouldn't take the Apple Care. And they said we wouldn't have it back for at good week cause they don't even work on the weekends. That was a no good at the time. So our local agent ordered a new laptop for us to use. And after we got what files we needed off the buggy one he had someone drive to Prague (4 hours away) to take the laptop to an AASP. They tested the computer for two days, only got it to fail once and yet still replaced just over $1000 in parts and no labor fee. All off our $349 Apple Care which had been used several times on that machine already. 

 

Sure there are some folks that buy Apple Care and never need it but something tells me that the "profit" from those folks isn't actually as it rolls into folks like me who get repairs that are way over the fee we paid or the so called "Apple Tax". I've had other cases like the one I mention and every one of them was well over the Apple Care fee. $169 covering a $300 hard drive replacement and as the drive hadn't totally failed they actually put the old one in a drive sled and tried to copy over our files as a courtesy cause we are one of the biggest customers at said particular store. $349 covered a $700 power port replacement which even I suspect was actually caused by water but they couldn't prove it so they don't argue it and just fix it. 

 

Apple has even replaced GPUs and hard drives for machines that were as much as 5 years old that had actually never failed on many machines and were likely fine at time of delivery and the whole Apple Care period for free simply because they weren't happy with the number that eventually wore out and how fast that happened. Including refunding folks that had paid for a replacement. 

 

Compare this to Dell etc or even Best Buy's pricing for service and the issue if Apple making money off this is less clear. Much less clear. As is the notion that they don't take care of their products in accordance with and even above the law. 

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post #29 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScartArt View Post

warranty or not, in the UK we have our sale of goods act which means products should be fit for purpose. You could take Apple to court claiming that a $2000+ computer should be expected to last at least 3 years.

 

Applecare still has benefits though such as on-site repair or advanced parts replacement.


So how long should a $30-40k car be expected to last? 15 to 20 years? Good luck in court with that one.

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post #30 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

I dont get it, they are sueing on the word used on the Apple care box (which is retarded imo)?

or

are they sueing because Apple do not honor the free second year warranty (which makes more sense) ?

 

If it's anything like in Italy they are suing because the sales staff at Apple doesn't give you the details of every local law before mentioning Apple Care, it's not spelled out in detail on the website in like 50 different locations etc. Not because anyone wasn't given what the law actually requires (as opposed to what they think the law requires)

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

Reply
post #31 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


The only wild card is the bizarre Portuguese interpretation that any defect which occurs during the first 2 years must have been present at delivery. So if I drop my phone in the toilet or run over it with a car, that's a warranty expense?

 

That interpretation is not bizarre. It is part of the EU law as well in a couple of countries. There are exceptions like batteries which will naturally consume so a battery that runs down in 18 months isn't proven to have been defective when you bought it. but otherwise yes it is possible that it was defective at time of delivery. Slim possibility but because it is possible those countries make the SELLER assume that is the case. 

 

If you drop your phone in water or run over it that's not a defect that's damage and no one requires the seller or manufacturer to cover that. At a cost or otherwise. Apple could legally shrug their shoulders at you and tell you that now you get to buy a $500+ phone cause you screwed up. 


Edited by charlituna - 7/18/12 at 9:21am

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

Reply

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

Reply
post #32 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jukes View Post

I'm sure that Apple makes a fortune on Applecare.

 

I've generally found it useful on 1st generation products (e.g., the new retina MBP) where Apple tends to have relatively large issues, and worthless by the 3rd generation of a product where Apple has ironed out most of the bugs.

 

Since my 27" imac is in its third year, the hard drive and the graphic card both broke.  I am pretty glad I took the Apple care because botth repairs would had cost 600$.  I always take the apple care, but here in canada the mandadory warranty is 1 year. Note that the problems occured in the 3rd year, so a 2 year warranty would not had helped.

 

I also had a MBP break, in that case they had to replace the unit. With the new retina MBP being almost unrepairable, I sure hope people are taking Apple care on it. The new MBP is divided into costly modules for repairs :for example, if the webcamp breaks, they will need to replace the entire screen for 700$.

 

 

Yeah, stuff breaks. I'm not saying not to buy it, I'm just saying that it's almost necessary on 1st gen apple stuff. I had lots of trouble with each of my 1st gen TI powerbook, iPod, and Macbook Air with stuff like click wheels and logic boards (in particular, the 1st gen Macbook Air was a disaster). My feeling now is that I don't buy AppleCare on 3rd gen and later stuff. If they break once, then I pay for the repair which is usually about the same cost as AppleCare (this isn't universally true). If it breaks twice then I buy a new product (I keep laptops for 3-4 years). I'm handy enough to replace hard drives, so this has worked out so far.

post #33 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

 

The Czech Republic and Poland are the only two that I know of that require 2 years flat coverage for anything that isn't clear user damage. Everyone else is as you were told in Germany, max period for assumption of 'delivery defect' that I have seen is 6 months. Also, every one of them requires that you go to the seller. In some countries that is not Apple as they don't have stores there. An issue I get to deal with a lot cause my job takes me all over the world at times. 


I believe Hungary also has the same 2 year flat coverage.  So far the Dresden, Germany store is the easternmost European Apple Store.  Fortunately Dresden is barely more than 90 minutes away by car from Prague, and would be less if they'd ever finish the highway segment that they've been working on for years and years.

post #34 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

The Czech Republic and Poland are the only two that I know of that require 2 years flat coverage for anything that isn't clear user damage. Everyone else is as you were told in Germany, max period for assumption of 'delivery defect' that I have seen is 6 months. Also, every one of them requires that you go to the seller. In some countries that is not Apple as they don't have stores there. An issue I get to deal with a lot cause my job takes me all over the world at times. 

Yes, but keep in mind that even if you have a 2 year warranty, you're not paying for 'nothing' during the first 2 years. Applecare covers a lot more than hardware repairs.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #35 of 41

Actually the implementations are supposed to be similar since they are transposed from Directive 99/44/EC which covers all cases of lack of conformity for two years regardless of when they are detected so long as lack of conformity is reported within two months of the time of detection (Article 5).  Since all member states are supposed to have transposed this directive by 2002-01-01, Apple is essentially violating consumer protection laws in all EU member states,  It is, however, unfortunate that consumer rights groups are fighting this, as I prefer to fight this kind of thing on my own when companies really annoy me, but I have other resources to use against Apple if I ever need to.

post #36 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Your analysis is incorrect.
AppleCare covers more than warranty items. If you have non-warranty damage to your phone during the first 2 years, AppleCare would cover it, but the warranty wouldn't - so you ARE getting more services during the entire 3 years for your money. Plus, Apple care offers services beyond repair of the product. AppleCare offers technical support and software support that are not covered by the warranty - so it's not like you're paying for nothing.
Now, granted, you're getting less in places where the warranty is 2 years than in the US, but if they didn't have to offer a 2 year warranty, AppleCare would probably cost more.
The only wild card is the bizarre Portuguese interpretation that any defect which occurs during the first 2 years must have been present at delivery. So if I drop my phone in the toilet or run over it with a car, that's a warranty expense?

 

Applecare USA and AppleCare Rest of the World are two very different beasts. The American version covers accidental damage (extra costs) where as the Rest doesn't. The Rest version only covers faults not arsing from abuse/wear'n'tear, that is to say the very things that the Portuguese warranty covers you for- faults that should not be expected to arise in a two year window unless a component has been poorly manufactured.

 

Unless one  thinks that they are going to need (non beta or V1 software) telephone support after year one they are able to save a substantial amount by not taking out Applecare. Given that AppleCare is only 2 years for phones and ipads

 

Applecare for other products however is a different matter, the 3rd year cover exceeds the statutory requirements.

 

Ultimately when it comes down to it, Apple should know what the laws are in each country and just abide by them. Each time they do something silly like this they tarnish their image

post #37 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

 

That interpretation is not bizarre. It is part of the EU law as well in a couple of countries. There are exceptions like batteries which will naturally consume so a battery that runs down in 18 months isn't proven to have been defective when you bought it. but otherwise yes it is possible that it was defective at time of delivery. Slim possibility but because it is possible those countries make the SELLER assume that is the case. 

 

If you drop your phone in water or run over it that's not a defect that's damage and no one requires the seller or manufacturer to cover that. At a cost or otherwise. Apple could legally shrug their shoulders at you and tell you that now you get to buy a $500+ phone cause you screwed up. 

 The law expects batteries to degrade but within limits. A battery that only holds, for example, 30% capacity after 18 months might well be considered faulty..

 

Personally I think the assumption that a solid state item should last for 2 years is very fair

post #38 of 41

There are times when i wish that we in the UK would adopt the same interpretation of the directive. Our 7 year rule is, in theory, superior but more difficult to enforce/prove. I guess our law is fairer to vendors, if my TV fails after 6.5 years, the vendor is not expected to repair it at no cost. If it is proven that the component was faulty, the monetary utility that I have gained from the TV is deducted from the cost of repairs. So if I only watched that TV once (and can prove it) I will have to contribute very little, whereas if I watched it every day i will have to contribute much more.  

post #39 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Yes, but keep in mind that even if you have a 2 year warranty, you're not paying for 'nothing' during the first 2 years. Applecare covers a lot more than hardware repairs.

 Software support aside, the only real advantage would be the speed with which the device is repaired. I don't know if AppleCare specifically rules out the use of reconditioned units or not. If it does promise to replace faulty units with a brand new device then yes that would be another advantage.

post #40 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

There are times when i wish that we in the UK would adopt the same interpretation of the directive. Our 7 year rule is, in theory, superior but more difficult to enforce/prove. I guess our law is fairer to vendors, if my TV fails after 6.5 years, the vendor is not expected to repair it at no cost. If it is proven that the component was faulty, the monetary utility that I have gained from the TV is deducted from the cost of repairs. So if I only watched that TV once (and can prove it) I will have to contribute very little, whereas if I watched it every day i will have to contribute much more.  

Any EU citizen can file a complaint against a member state if they feel that EC directives are not being implemented correctly, and if after evaluation by the European Commission, the member state is found to not be complying, they will be fined until compliance is verified.

 

EDIT: Furthermore, EU citizens affected by a member state's lack of compliance are entitled to redress.

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