Microsoft posts first quarterly loss in company history - Page 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by womble2k2 

According to Ballmer, this is just a rounding error!!

He's making Bill Gates very angry... You don't want to see him when he's angry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anantksundaram 


Agreed. They'll blame it on accounting this-and-that, but the bleeding has officially started. Windows 8 will be the floodgate.
Amazon will follow in a couple of years.

No they blamed it on buying that ad company... and the way the market reacted, everyone thought it was a lot worse.  

floodgate?  nah...  Remember Windows Licensing is only 1/3 of their rev streams.   Office and BackOffice will keep them afloat for a while.   The hemorrhaging will start when the AWS/GCE/ clouds basically eliminates the Windows data center in most shops (like RAC-F, ActiveDirectory will be the glue to keep MS in the data center, as organizations will have spent too much to eliminate that core rights provisioning system), and at that point Office365 will be their only profit center... If Microsoft doesn't become the  next IBM and just 'consult' their way into managing corporate Data centers, it will happen even faster.

Amazon... nope...  As soon as Amazon established nexus in all 50 states and most countries... start looking at them to be a 'same day shipper' and getting into just about every home product (including groceries).   Amazon is pretty much the 'virtual department store....'    Between your Amazon account and your AppleID, we'll probably not even need credit cards.  Amazon is to Best Buy, Walmart, Sears, and Target that Apple is to Dell, HP, Nokia, Palm.

Microsoft... well, Microsoft is a buggy whip maker As Henry Ford (Apple) and Charles Stewart Mott and Alfred P Sloan (Amazon) change the market from Horses (which needed an OS[whip]) to cars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarquisMark 

I like to M$ bash as much as the next guy, but this is really non-news.

 

They had $6.1 billion in profit this quarter, except they decided to do some shady accounting in regards to the acquisition of aQuantive in 2007. Meaning they spent the $6.3B 5 years ago and reporting that money as lost this quarter. Obviously they made a profit that quarter in 2007 even after wasting the money, so this is just tricky bookkeeping (probably to reduce their tax responsibility).

 

So, no this is not the beginning of the end for M$, as much as we all would like it to be.
 

It's not "shady accounting", it falls within generally acceptable accounting practices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun, UK 

 

Why? Why would you swap your comfortable to use, ergonomic desktop for an iPad? I just don't see the reasoning. Who wants to sit and stare at a 10" screen all day? That would drive me mad. I can see that you might have a desktop as your primary machine and a tablet as your secondary portable machine instead of a laptop but not the other way around.

 

And I don't see how this opens the door to the Apple workstations. Have you ever bought a small business computer system? I have and I can tell you Apple didn't even come close. I bought a Dell Server and PCs with MS Exchange Server for a fraction of what it would cost to install Apple kit. Enterprise is all about price which is why Apple got out in the first place. Fortunately you can always add Macs into that ecosystem if needs be.

 

Apple has done away with X-Serve and downgraded it's server solution in Mountain Lion so even if you wanted to go for an Apple solution you can't. What would you buy - a Mac Mini? Yeah right. If you're a small business with a handful of Macs you could always go peer-to-peer I guess or use a Cloud based network solution but it's hardly an ideal solution for most small businesses. Maybe Apple has something up their sleeve with iCloud - I hope so. The Microsoft solution was a nightmare to administer and costly to maintain but without a viable alternative what are you supposed to do. 

Technology people forget most people (6Billion or so) single task.  10" is fine for them, 11/12/13 is available as weight reduces.  The RD on the MacBook Pro... leads me to believe that Apple will likely move to the 15" Touch iMac (MaxiPad?;-)  on a stand for multitasking and touch.

There are more books in the classroom than PCs... think about it.   More TVs than PCs... think about it.   More car Stereos than PCs.  Think about it.  the iPad is not about replacing the PC, it's about replacing everything the PC can't replace.

Small businesses will by buying from a canned solution from the cloud.

Mail is a commodity.

You may not need an iPad/App/Cloud solution... but a lot of people will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9secondko 

And their solution to stop losing money?

 

Stop selling on Mac.

 

LOL

 

No wonder the company is toast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash_beezy 

After a announcement of halting Mac office sales, Surface and that horrible unveiling....lol
That's quite a tank of profit.

This did not happen. The only thing announced was that Microsoft would not be releasing Office 2013 for Mac. But if you know anything about Office for Mac you know this is 100% expected.

Mac Office versions never match Windows; they trail by one year. Windows had 2003, Mac had 2004. WIndows had 2007, Mac had 2008. Windows had 2010, Mac has 2011. Windows has 2013, Mac will get 2014.

Is that clear enough that we can stop the "Office for Mac is dead" posts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9secondko 

And their solution to stop losing money?

 

Stop selling on Mac.

 

LOL

 

No wonder the company is toast.

 

Then there is that brick that can't decide if it's a laptop or a tablet...

 

 

Apple has had the Surface for a while now... it is called the MacBook Air.

Why would they stop selling on Macs? Revenue is revenue. It doesn't matter where it comes from. People will buy Macs regardless. Its not like there aren't other alternatives for Office and they really can't stop Windows from being installed on a Mac. That would be a silly thing to do anyways...like I said revenue is revenue. It doesn't matter if it comes from a Dell user or a Mac user. I doubt Mac products are losses for the company. If they were, they wouldn't keep producing them. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellacool 


The investment didn't save Apple. Keeping Office for Mac alive did. If Microsoft killed Office for Mac, Mac was dead. There was no use for Mac in the real world in 1997 and if you take away the only useful thing a Mac could do by killing Office, you kill Mac.

Oh bullshit! The Mac was still entrenched in the graphic arts, desktop publishing, and advertising markets. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellacool 


I am sure if they get desperate, they can use all that cross licensing they acquired when the bailed Apple so many years ago.

This didn't bail Apple out. $150 million doesn't keep a company afloat when they're losing $500 Million-$1 Billion per quarter. Thats like a drop in the bucket. This was simply to reassure to Mac users that Apple were still significant enough when they were being written off as dead. I can't believe people still believe that to this day. I believe Bill Gates at one point even said this wasn't done to bail out Apple. 

Apple bailed themselves out with good leadership and great products...something they lacked before. In my opinion, you can thank the iMac for bailing them out and then the iPod for finishing it up, not some stupid Office suite and some pocket change. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellacool 


You may want to not scroll past the first twenty Google results to find a bias blog to support your blindness. You do not walk away with cross licensing if you are not in he drivers seat for this deal.

Riiight. Microsoft was in the "drivers seat." And what did it get them except a strong competitor wielding the iPod, iMac, iTunes, iPhone, and iPad?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarquisMark 

I like to M$ bash as much as the next guy, but this is really non-news.

 

They had $6.1 billion in profit this quarter, except they decided to do some shady accounting in regards to the acquisition of aQuantive in 2007. Meaning they spent the $6.3B 5 years ago and reporting that money as lost this quarter. Obviously they made a profit that quarter in 2007 even after wasting the money, so this is just tricky bookkeeping (probably to reduce their tax responsibility).

 

So, no this is not the beginning of the end for M$, as much as we all would like it to be.
 

Maybe its not the end of Microsoft, but a loss is a loss. It doesn't matter how you try and spin it. If you overdraw your bank account by $10, it doesn't matter how you do it. Its still $-10.00 in your account. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellacool 


You may want to pull your head out of the sand and do a little research. I know you hate anything not Apple but Google is your friend. News flash, you do not walk away with a cross licensing if what you say is true.

MS "saved" Apple because Apple had them over a barrel. MS, as usual in those days, was caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Caught with Apple's Quicktime code. Before they stole that, movies and other video wouldn't play properly in Windows. They would be jerky from frame to frame.

Apple threatened to sue.

They came to a settlement (wisely) in which Apple and MS would share patents in various bits of software, and also that MS would buy $150,000,000 in non voting Apple stock and announce support for Apple by continuing development of Office for at least 5 years.

This wasn't done out of the goodness of Gates' heart. Apple in effect used a bit of extortion on MS due to the latter's act of theft. It was in Billy's best interest to play Apple's game or face worse penalties. That $150 million investment in Apple was probably going to be a lot cheaper than a lawsuit with Apple.

So MS' $150m stock investment was the result of a settlement of a lawsuit. It was, however, an INITIAL payment of a much larger sum that would be paid out to Apple over the course of a few years. At the time this is what then Apple CFO Fred Anderson said. The exact amount of the settlement is still unknown.

Both companies would cross-license all existing patents and any new ones over the following five years. As we know, Apple would make IE the default Mac browser, which in the context of the period isn't a strange thing.

Apple had leverage over MS, arising from the Apple Computer vs. San Francisco Canyon Co. lawsuit.

Apple charged San Fran Canyon Co with copyright infringement and wrongdoing. And they filed an IP suit accordingly. These guys were a 3rd party contractor for Apple. However, the action also included MS and Intel. Canyon worked on video software for Apple's QuickTime for Windows and Intel's DCI. Apple claimed their copyrighted code was used in the shipping version of MS' Video for Windows and will be used by both companies in the future.

Apple claimed that after seeing demos of Quicktime for Windows and Video for Windows at the 1992 expo in Vegas, Intel's upper management asked Canyon to provide software to them that would make the speed of Video for Windows as fast as Quicktime. Months later, Canyon sent Intel its code and Video for Windows got the performance boost with Quicktime For Windows. Apple added Intel and MS to the action, and Apple showed that thousands of lines of code for video used in Windows came direct from Apple's Quicktime for Windows (Apple's software.)

As we know, some years later at the Boston Macworld Expo, the companies were like best friends.

MS and Intel got caught red-handed and paid for it. MS hired former Apple guys and finally made Office into usable Mac apps.

Not quite a win for MS. Apple simply took full advantage of MS' typical behaviour (the sort of behaviour that came to light later in antitrust court.)

Interestingly enough, had MS not acted like a thief at the time, Apple might not be where they are today.

These details weren't widely reported back in 1997. So they're easy to miss, probably due to all the breathlessness and emotional highs and lows going on at the time. There was a mention of other payments MS agreed to make in addition to the $150 million. The amount was never publicly disclosed (which isn't really surprising.) For instance, the particulars of the recent Apple-Nokia deal weren't disclosed publicly either. Apple's financial records at the time suggested it was substantial.

The only mention we have of these later payments was from a televised broadcast, and likely the settlement docs which may or many not be available for public perusal. 

http://scripting.com/mail/mail970806.html

From: gorskic@concentric.net (Chris Gorski);

Sent at 8/6/97; 10:11:21 AM;

More Info...from CNBC

Sorry to keep writing, but my brain feels like it's connected to a fire hose...

Apple and MS are also collaborating on Java. What this means for Sun is anybody's guess. Again, forgot about this.

Bruce Francis will interview Ed Woolard (Apple board member) at 10:30 ET (7:30 your time) on CNBC. JObs won't be talking to the press today.

It's my guess that CNNfn (if your cable system carries it) will have very extensive coverage of all this on Digital Jam at 11 eastern (8 your time), probably with lots of video. It's the only thing worth watching on fn, even though Steve Young (their lead anchor) hasn't a clue.

From: gorskic@concentric.net (Chris Gorski);

Sent at 8/6/97; 10:42:37 AM;

More Bruce Francis News

In addition to all the other stuff that has been said, Edgar Woolard, Apple Board member and DuPont Chairman jsut revealed to CNBC's Bruce Francis that MS will, as part of the patent settlement, make "balancing payments" to Apple over the next 5 years. He would not disclose the sum.

--------------

For your own interest and edification, start here:

Start here:

http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Apple_v._San_Francisco_Canyon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quadra 610 

 

 

 

MS "saved" Apple because Apple had them over a barrel. MS, as usual in those days, was caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Caught with Apple's Quicktime code. Before they stole that, movies and other video wouldn't play properly in Windows. They would be jerky from frame to frame.

 

Apple threatened to sue.

 

They came to a settlement (wisely) in which Apple and MS would share patents in various bits of software, and also that MS would buy $150,000,000 in non voting Apple stock and announce support for Apple by continuing development of Office for at least 5 years.

 

This wasn't done out of the goodness of Gates' heart. Apple in effect used a bit of extortion on MS due to the latter's act of theft. It was in Billy's best interest to play Apple's game or face worse penalties. That $150 million investment in Apple was probably going to be a lot cheaper than a lawsuit with Apple.

 

So MS' $150m stock investment was the result of a settlement of a lawsuit. It was, however, an INITIAL payment of a much larger sum that would be paid out to Apple over the course of a few years. At the time this is what then Apple CFO Fred Anderson said. The exact amount of the settlement is still unknown.

 

Both companies would cross-license all existing patents and any new ones over the following five years. As we know, Apple would make IE the default Mac browser, which in the context of the period isn't a strange thing.

 

Apple had leverage over MS, arising from the Apple Computer vs. San Francisco Canyon Co. lawsuit.

 

Apple charged San Fran Canyon Co with copyright infringement and wrongdoing. And they filed an IP suit accordingly. These guys were a 3rd party contractor for Apple. However, the action also included MS and Intel. Canyon worked on video software for Apple's QuickTime for Windows and Intel's DCI. Apple claimed their copyrighted code was used in the shipping version of MS' Video for Windows and will be used by both companies in the future.

 

Apple claimed that after seeing demos of Quicktime for Windows and Video for Windows at the 1992 expo in Vegas, Intel's upper management asked Canyon to provide software to them that would make the speed of Video for Windows as fast as Quicktime. Months later, Canyon sent Intel its code and Video for Windows got the performance boost with Quicktime For Windows. Apple added Intel and MS to the action, and Apple showed that thousands of lines of code for video used in Windows came direct from Apple's Quicktime for Windows (Apple's software.)

 

As we know, some years later at the Boston Macworld Expo, the companies were like best friends.

 

MS and Intel got caught red-handed and paid for it. MS hired former Apple guys and finally made Office into usable Mac apps.

 

Not quite a win for MS. Apple simply took full advantage of MS' typical behaviour (the sort of behaviour that came to light later in antitrust court.)

 

Interestingly enough, had MS not acted like a thief at the time, Apple might not be where they are today.

 

These details weren't widely reported back in 1997. So they're easy to miss, probably due to all the breathlessness and emotional highs and lows going on at the time. There was a mention of other payments MS agreed to make in addition to the $150 million. The amount was never publicly disclosed (which isn't really surprising.) For instance, the particulars of the recent Apple-Nokia deal weren't disclosed publicly either. Apple's financial records at the time suggested it was substantial.

 

The only mention we have of these later payments was from a televised broadcast, and likely the settlement docs which may or many not be available for public perusal. 

 

http://scripting.com/mail/mail970806.html

 

From: gorskic@concentric.net (Chris Gorski);

Sent at 8/6/97; 10:11:21 AM;

More Info...from CNBC

Sorry to keep writing, but my brain feels like it's connected to a fire hose...

Apple and MS are also collaborating on Java. What this means for Sun is anybody's guess. Again, forgot about this.

 

Bruce Francis will interview Ed Woolard (Apple board member) at 10:30 ET (7:30 your time) on CNBC. JObs won't be talking to the press today.

It's my guess that CNNfn (if your cable system carries it) will have very extensive coverage of all this on Digital Jam at 11 eastern (8 your time), probably with lots of video. It's the only thing worth watching on fn, even though Steve Young (their lead anchor) hasn't a clue.

 

 

From: gorskic@concentric.net (Chris Gorski);

Sent at 8/6/97; 10:42:37 AM;

More Bruce Francis News

 

In addition to all the other stuff that has been said, Edgar Woolard, Apple Board member and DuPont Chairman jsut revealed to CNBC's Bruce Francis that MS will, as part of the patent settlement, make "balancing payments" to Apple over the next 5 years. He would not disclose the sum.

 

--------------

 

For your own interest and edification, start here:

 

Start here:

 

http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Apple_v._San_Francisco_Canyon

I am BIG Apple Supporter, but lets be real APPLE did not have the money to fight a BIG Lawsuit, since this could have been tied up for a long time, since law was not as clear in those days and MS had war chest to play dirty tricks on Apple. Steve Jobs discussed the situation and stated even though Apple were right in principle, he was glad that it was settled out of court. The initial money paid was to help support continued Apple operating costs.  I agree great vision and products saved Apple, but if they had gone the lawsuit avenue, not sure if we would see an Apple today, since time spent supporting that strategy would take away from visionary leadership. Apple at that time was very different from MONSTER (in positive sense) we have today. 

Edit: In no way do I support HellaCool, since that person still does not get and will never get it. Apple is Blue Ocean (innovation) and Microsoft is Red Ocean (no innovation, bureaucratic company)

Developers, developers, developers...

MS is not going away,  They have just become the GM of tech companies,  They will continue to exist because they have a hold on a large portion of the IT business that a certain segment of the market feels safe in consuming.  IBM used to be the company that "nobody got fired for recommending".  MS took away the King of FUD crown from IBM.  

Computers are just tools used to solve problems. Companies will still be using Exchange and Office as their primary tools for the email, word processing, and spreadsheets for many years because it would be so expensive and unproductive to replace them.  But companies are also less willing to buy into MS's forcing of new versions of those products on them every few years.  Word and Excel have provided all the tools that 99% of companies need to solve the problems those tools are targeted at for quite a while - going back to Office 2003 at least.  The latest releases have just moved things around and hid them behind ribbons and buttons and icons.  Is it really worth upgrading to a new version if it makes you less productive because you can't find anything where it used to be?  Windows XP the same for PC operating systems.  That is why Vista failed so badly - it really did not offer any significant advantage over XP, so why upgrade?  While XP certainly had security problems that needed addressing, Windows 8 may see the same fate as Vista.  What is really different about it from Windows 7 that would make a company upgrade and go through retraining users?  MS may have figured that out with their new pricing strategy for Win8.    

Unfortunately some of the same can be said about Apple and OSX.  There has been a lot done with Lion and Mountain Lion that most users don't really care about and don't make the user more productive.  It just makes them have to search around to figure where Apple moved everything.  Or force the user to get deeper locked into the Apple ecosystem - just as companies became locked into the Windows ecosystem. 

Let's just hope that Apple does not fall into the same rut that market leaders often do and stop innovating and just resort to moving things around and making them look different.

And let's hope the US government doesn't bail out MS some day like they did GM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NasserAE 

 

You mean the cross-licenseing, product commitments, and money they had to pay as part of the settlement for stealing Quicktime code?

I've been waiting for someone to mention the TRUTH of the so-called "Microsoft bailout," NasserAE.  Thanks for the infusion of reality here!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quadra 610 

MS "saved" Apple because ..........

 

 

Start here:

 

http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Apple_v._San_Francisco_Canyon

Great stuff.

Why do you even bother. Honestly. Especially with those who are predisposed to not getting it, or not wanting to get it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellacool 


When you have someone "over a barrel" you do not offer joint licensing. Keep dreaming, you make way to many assumptions in your post. Considering you are not Bill Gates, kind of hard to speak on his behalf.

http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Apple_v._San_Francisco_Canyon

This is a shining light in the darkness that seems to have been the news while I was away.

I don't want Microsoft bankrupt (though they probably deserve it), and I don't want them out of any of their markets (though they probably deserve it). I just want them to be punished for what they've done in the past.

And who knows; hopefully they'll get down to the "90 days 'till" timeframe and wind up coming back like Apple did, but with their own stuff this time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyler82 
Their OS is on 89+% of computers throughout the world.

Fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quadra 610 

Don't worry. Many more are to follow. 

I love those.  Please post more.

Don't worry folks - you're in good hands!

Apple has recorded in recent times the most profit of any company in the history of the world....MS posts a loss for the first quarter in the company's history. Talk about two diametrically opposed trajectories!

Apple has lead the way to "Mobile" computing (iPhone & iPad) with iOS....MS can barely "shoehorn" there abortion of an OS into a Laptop...never mind trying to get it to work on a tablet or God forbid a smartphone! Good grief! Talk about a misdirected, out of touch company!

MS is in the business of going out of business!

With my iPad...I may never buy another Desktop/iMac or laptop again. A 7" iPad, an iP5, and a HD AppleTV (the big screen), iCloud and I'm good to go for less than 25% of the cost of what I paid for my computer system just 5 years ago.

5 years ago: Original intel iMac, $1,500, original intel iBook, $1,500, 4 iPod shuffles/iPod Minis, (Gave all to my nieces), original iPhone, $600, original ATV, $300, iPad2, $600, Airport Extreme, $300, plus some iLife, iWork and OS upgrades along the way, $500. Casio Exlim Camera, $300. All equals, ~$6,000.

2012: An iP5 $0.00 (will trade iP4s for $200), iPad 7" $0.00 (Sold iPad2 for $275), Apple HDTV, $1,500 (Sold 50" flat screen for $400 & ATV for $100) Sold all SW upgrades for about $100, Sold Casio Exlim Camera, $40 (only use iPhone camera, now). All equals, ~$1,300! :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by diddy 

Where have they done that?  Last I heard MS still sells Office 2011 and likely will be selling Office 2014 which will again be different from the recently announced Office 2013 (Windows).  MS has not announced that they are stopping anything on the Mac.

Correct.  I don't recall office for Windows and Office for Mac ever coming out in the same year.