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Best wishes from the uk

post #1 of 244
Thread Starter 
I'm sending my best wishes to all of you here on this terrible day. I can be a little pushy/ rude with my comments but I don't mean it.

I felt 100% American today.

Peace.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #2 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I felt 100% American today.

 

What does that mean?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #3 of 244
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

What does that mean?

As you might know from my posts here I grew up in the uk but have an American father. I went to the US for the first time at 17. I lived there up until 3.5 yrs ago for ten years. Today I found very disturbing and I felt closer to those I've known and know in the US than I have for a long time. Sadness, shock and anger put me back.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #4 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

As you might know from my posts here I grew up in the uk but have an American father. I went to the US for the first time at 17. I lived there up until 3.5 yrs ago for ten years. Today I found very disturbing and I felt closer to those I've known and know in the US than I have for a long time. Sadness, shock and anger put me back.

 

I assume you're referring to this terrible incident at the movie theater in Colorado?

 

But what does this have to do with the countries at all? How does that have anything to do with nationality? It is a terribly tragic human event regardless of its geographical location. Nationality is totally irrelevant.

 

It amazes me how deeply ingrained this idea of country and nation is in people's psyche.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #5 of 244
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I assume you're referring to this terrible incident at the movie theater in Colorado?

But what does this have to do with the countries at all? How does that have anything to do with nationality? It is a terribly tragic human event regardless of its geographical location. Nationality is totally irrelevant.

It amazes me how deeply ingrained this idea of country and nation is in people's psyche.

I was going to edit my post to say that this isn't, for me, just about the people I've known in the US, but the wider American people too. I thought you or anyone else reading it might see that without me editing it though.

People do have feelings for groups of people, it's not even nationalistic as such, it's really more just identifying with the whole. In the case of a country you have a shared experience of being a part of that group. The boundaries of that experience may go beyond the countries borders, but within those borders, within those structures, there's a greater mass of people you identify with, even if it's simply you understand them better than others.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #6 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

People do have feelings for groups of people, it's not even nationalistic as such, it's really more just identifying with the whole. In the case of a country you have a shared experience of being a part of that group. The boundaries of that experience may go beyond the countries borders, but within those borders, within those structures, there's a greater mass of people you identify with, even if it's simply you understand them better than others.

 

But there is no "shared experience" here. That's the point. If there is, it is the larger human group as a whole. Or maybe people who go to movies or something.

 

This was a terrible tragedy and I feel very badly for the people who were victimized by this nut. No question about that. I sympathize with them and my prayers are with them. I can even empathize with the concern as I know people who regularly attend midnight showings (in that area in fact...I live a short distance from where this happened) for major movie openings. But your statement about feeling "American" or some how attributing this all to some broader, national "shared experience" is just one of those vacuous things people say that sounds like they're somehow "relating."

 

Just say: "This was a terrible thing. I feel badly for the victims and their families. My heart goes out to them."

 

Sheesh.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #7 of 244
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

But there is no "shared experience" here. That's the point. If there is, it is the larger human group as a whole. Or maybe people who go to movies or something.

This was a terrible tragedy and I feel very badly for the people who were victimized by this nut. No question about that. I sympathize with them and my prayers are with them. I can even empathize with the concern as I know people who regularly attend midnight showings (in that area in fact...I live a short distance from where this happened) for major movie openings. But your statement about feeling "American" or some how attributing this all to some broader, national "shared experience" is just one of those vacuous things people say that sounds like they're somehow "relating."

Just say: "This was a terrible thing. I feel badly for the victims and their families. My heart goes out to them."

Sheesh.

Thanks for telling me what to say and think.

I'll stick with feeling 100% American today whether you get it or not.

I'm sorry to hear you are close to where this happened.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #8 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Thanks for telling me what to say and think.

 

Just trying to help you avoid saying meaningless things.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'll stick with feeling 100% American today whether you get it or not.

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'm sorry to hear you are close to where this happened.

 

Okay.

 

I'm sorry that it happened (regardless of my proximity to it) and thankful that none of my loved ones and no one I know (so that I know of at this point) was there.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #9 of 244

In more ways that just the horrible death and injury toll, this incident is troubling:

 

The alleged suspect was a "model citizen" and "an exceptional student of high academic achievement", a "PhD candidate with no criminal record". Suddenly he dropped out of his studies, for no apparent reason. This does occasionally happen, but in this case, it is such an extreme slide from "a stable, academically gifted person with everything to live for", to "a cold, calculating psychopath" - this is suspect in itself.

The suspect was heavily in debt from years of school loans and he was unemployed. Where did he get the money to purchase >$20,000 of guns and paramilitary equipment?

Much of the gear owned by the suspect is unobtainable without specific permits. How did he obtain this stuff - which is not available at gun shows or survivalist stores, or on line? 

He lived in a nice apartment and drove a new car.... how was he making his rent payments etc. etc.?

Why did he appear "hypnotized" and "glassy eyed", as if on some heavy duty psychoactive drug (such as scopolamine etc) -  to witnesses in the theater?

This attack, according to the police, was planned a long time in advance...  and movie studios try to keep the plot of unreleased movies under wraps until the premier; however the attacker appeared to have exact advance knowledge "The Joker's" appearance and kit.

 

Love him or hate him, great commentary from Alex Jones here, right on the money. Sorry all you establishment shills out there, but your corporate weasel-media story doesn't add up.  There's something very "not kosher" about this story - to date.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #10 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

People do have feelings for groups of people, it's not even nationalistic as such, it's really more just identifying with the whole. In the case of a country you have a shared experience of being a part of that group. The boundaries of that experience may go beyond the countries borders, but within those borders, within those structures, there's a greater mass of people you identify with, even if it's simply you understand them better than others.

 

But there is no "shared experience" here. That's the point. If there is, it is the larger human group as a whole. Or maybe people who go to movies or something.

 

This was a terrible tragedy and I feel very badly for the people who were victimized by this nut. No question about that. I sympathize with them and my prayers are with them. I can even empathize with the concern as I know people who regularly attend midnight showings (in that area in fact...I live a short distance from where this happened) for major movie openings. But your statement about feeling "American" or some how attributing this all to some broader, national "shared experience" is just one of those vacuous things people say that sounds like they're somehow "relating."

 

Just say: "This was a terrible thing. I feel badly for the victims and their families. My heart goes out to them."

 

Sheesh.

Please MJ not the usual diatribe this time. People have died and Hands was just expressing sadness at it. And he did say after all " beyond boarders ". Hey even Obama and Romney dropped their hatefest for one day over this. We're all human beings and we can all feel bad about this. That's something you can identify with no matter where you are. For me it's ok if he feels 100 % American today as all Americans came from somewhere else and they're all humans. 

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #11 of 244

We should all come together and forget all the bickering about politics and remember the innocent people killed and maimed by this animal in Aurora Colorado now.Life is to precious to lose like this .
 

post #12 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

In more ways that just the horrible death and injury toll, this incident is troubling:

 

The alleged suspect was a "model citizen" and "an exceptional student of high academic achievement", a "PhD candidate with no criminal record". Suddenly he dropped out of his studies, for no apparent reason. This does occasionally happen, but in this case, it is such an extreme slide from "a stable, academically gifted person with everything to live for", to "a cold, calculating psychopath" - this is suspect in itself.

The suspect was heavily in debt from years of school loans and he was unemployed. Where did he get the money to purchase >$20,000 of guns and paramilitary equipment?

Much of the gear owned by the suspect is unobtainable without specific permits. How did he obtain this stuff - which is not available at gun shows or survivalist stores, or on line? 

He lived in a nice apartment and drove a new car.... how was he making his rent payments etc. etc.?

Why did he appear "hypnotized" and "glassy eyed", as if on some heavy duty psychoactive drug (such as scopolamine etc) -  to witnesses in the theater?

This attack, according to the police, was planned a long time in advance...  and movie studios try to keep the plot of unreleased movies under wraps until the premier; however the attacker appeared to have exact advance knowledge "The Joker's" appearance and kit.

 

Love him or hate him, great commentary from Alex Jones here, right on the money. Sorry all you establishment shills out there, but your corporate weasel-media story doesn't add up.  There's something very "not kosher" about this story - to date.

 

The incident is already being used for political reasons (i.e. the UN Small Arms Treaty, an ABC reporter trying to link the assailant to the Tea Party, etc).  However, Alex Jones is out of his goddamned mind here.  Until I see real, hard evidence, I refuse to believe that our government orchestrated the slaughter of Americans at a movie theater...just like I don't believe it murdered 3,000 people on 9/11.   Even making an accusation like that without real proof (not the coincidence of the UN Treaty) could be considered an attempt to incite a rite.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Please MJ not the usual diatribe this time. People have died and Hands was just expressing sadness at it. And he did say after all " beyond boarders ". Hey even Obama and Romney dropped their hatefest for one day over this. We're all human beings and we can all feel bad about this. That's something you can identify with no matter where you are. For me it's ok if he feels 100 % American today as all Americans came from somewhere else and they're all humans. 

 

You cannot take your partisan blinders off at all, can you?  MJ has a point, even if it's probably a little harsh and better left unsaid.  I, for one, appreciate Hands' sentiment.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

We should all come together and forget all the bickering about politics and remember the innocent people killed and maimed by this animal in Aurora Colorado now.Life is to precious to lose like this .
 

 

For how long...forever?  

 

700

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #13 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Where did he get the money to purchase >$20,000 of guns and paramilitary equipment?

Much of the gear owned by the suspect is unobtainable without specific permits. How did he obtain this stuff - which is not available at gun shows or survivalist stores, or on line?

 

Do you have links validating what you've said here? I ask because this news story mentions three types of weapons that are not all the difficult to come by: Two 0.40 caliber Glock pistols, a 12-guage Remington 870 shotgun and a 0.223 semi-automatic AR-15 (which is NOT an "assault rifle"...but then I should expect the anti-gun media and leftists to know that or communicate honestly about it if they did.) None of these firearms require "special permits" to obtain or own and they are not only available at gun shows but also normal gun shops (like Gander Mountain Guns and Bass Pro Shops where it is said they were purchased.) Finally, these weapons would not have cost more than $20K to purchase. It's possible everything he had could have cost that much total. Where did he get the money? I currently have 2-3 credit cards that could easily rack up that much in purchases.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

He lived in a nice apartment and drove a new car.... how was he making his rent payments etc. etc.?

 

Again...links?

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Why did he appear "hypnotized" and "glassy eyed", as if on some heavy duty psychoactive drug (such as scopolamine etc) -  to witnesses in the theater?

 

Yes, indeed, why? Please tell us. Maybe he was high on something/. Maybe he was just nuts and in some kind of psychotic state. Maybe he had been on (and then off) anti-depressants. This appears to be a common side-effect of those kind of drugs.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

This attack, according to the police, was planned a long time in advance...  and movie studios try to keep the plot of unreleased movies under wraps until the premier; however the attacker appeared to have exact advance knowledge "The Joker's" appearance and kit.

 

Oh dear. You're implying this was a movie PR stunt?!

 

BTW this isn't necessarily terribly mysterious. You may not realize that movie studios often do advanced screenings of new movies sometimes several days ahead of release. It's possible he was able to attend something like that.


Edited by MJ1970 - 7/21/12 at 7:08am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #14 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Please MJ not the usual diatribe this time. People have died and Hands was just expressing sadness at it. And he did say after all " beyond boarders ". Hey even Obama and Romney dropped their hatefest for one day over this. We're all human beings and we can all feel bad about this. That's something you can identify with no matter where you are. For me it's ok if he feels 100 % American today as all Americans came from somewhere else and they're all humans. 

 

My point was simply that this has nothing to do with "being American" or "feeling American". This could have just as easily happened in London, Paris, Berlin, etc. It's a fucking stupid and vacuous thing that people say to make it seems like they are really "in tune" with something.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #15 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Please MJ not the usual diatribe this time. People have died and Hands was just expressing sadness at it. And he did say after all " beyond boarders ". Hey even Obama and Romney dropped their hatefest for one day over this. We're all human beings and we can all feel bad about this. That's something you can identify with no matter where you are. For me it's ok if he feels 100 % American today as all Americans came from somewhere else and they're all humans. 

 

My point was simply that this has nothing to do with "being American" or "feeling American".This could  have just as easily happened in London, Paris, Berlin, etc. It's a fucking stupid and vacuous thing that people say to make it seems like they are really "in tune" with something.

 

 

Quote:
This could have just as easily happened in London, Paris, Berlin, etc

 

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

Under these circumstances wouldn't you think it's best to not focus on negativity and not be so nationalistic . Given that all Americans have their roots in somewhere else ( that's what this country is all about ) it's ok ( given what's happened ) to over look something that bugs you? I mean really MJ if you're a caring person this is something that happened to all of us. Not just Americans but people. Human beings. I can easily understand how someone from somewhere else could feel in tune with that. By saying what he did he's expressing his empathy to the place where this happened. Why? Because it could have happened anywhere including the U.K.


Edited by jimmac - 7/21/12 at 10:39am
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #16 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

In more ways that just the horrible death and injury toll, this incident is troubling:

 

The alleged suspect was a "model citizen" and "an exceptional student of high academic achievement", a "PhD candidate with no criminal record". Suddenly he dropped out of his studies, for no apparent reason. This does occasionally happen, but in this case, it is such an extreme slide from "a stable, academically gifted person with everything to live for", to "a cold, calculating psychopath" - this is suspect in itself.

The suspect was heavily in debt from years of school loans and he was unemployed. Where did he get the money to purchase >$20,000 of guns and paramilitary equipment?

Much of the gear owned by the suspect is unobtainable without specific permits. How did he obtain this stuff - which is not available at gun shows or survivalist stores, or on line? 

He lived in a nice apartment and drove a new car.... how was he making his rent payments etc. etc.?

Why did he appear "hypnotized" and "glassy eyed", as if on some heavy duty psychoactive drug (such as scopolamine etc) -  to witnesses in the theater?

This attack, according to the police, was planned a long time in advance...  and movie studios try to keep the plot of unreleased movies under wraps until the premier; however the attacker appeared to have exact advance knowledge "The Joker's" appearance and kit.

 

Love him or hate him, great commentary from Alex Jones here, right on the money. Sorry all you establishment shills out there, but your corporate weasel-media story doesn't add up.  There's something very "not kosher" about this story - to date.

 

The incident is already being used for political reasons (i.e. the UN Small Arms Treaty, an ABC reporter trying to link the assailant to the Tea Party, etc).  However, Alex Jones is out of his goddamned mind here.  Until I see real, hard evidence, I refuse to believe that our government orchestrated the slaughter of Americans at a movie theater...just like I don't believe it murdered 3,000 people on 9/11.   Even making an accusation like that without real proof (not the coincidence of the UN Treaty) could be considered an attempt to incite a rite.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Please MJ not the usual diatribe this time. People have died and Hands was just expressing sadness at it. And he did say after all " beyond boarders ". Hey even Obama and Romney dropped their hatefest for one day over this. We're all human beings and we can all feel bad about this. That's something you can identify with no matter where you are. For me it's ok if he feels 100 % American today as all Americans came from somewhere else and they're all humans. 

 

You cannot take your partisan blinders off at all, can you?  MJ has a point, even if it's probably a little harsh and better left unsaid.  I, for one, appreciate Hands' sentiment.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

We should all come together and forget all the bickering about politics and remember the innocent people killed and maimed by this animal in Aurora Colorado now.Life is to precious to lose like this .
 

 

For how long...forever?  

 

700

 

 

 

Quote:

 

   even if it's probably a little harsh and better left unsaid

At least you understand that. It's kind of like when someone dies and someone makes a negative comment about that person because of personal bias. It's crass and insensitive.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #17 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

The incident is already being used for political reasons (i.e. the UN Small Arms Treaty, an ABC reporter trying to link the assailant to the Tea Party, etc).  However, Alex Jones is out of his goddamned mind here.  Until I see real, hard evidence, I refuse to believe that our government orchestrated the slaughter of Americans at a movie theater...just like I don't believe it murdered 3,000 people on 9/11.   Even making an accusation like that without real proof (not the coincidence of the UN Treaty) could be considered an attempt to incite a rite.  

 

 

 

 

The statement that "our government" orchestrated this is absurd and deliberately misleading, in and of itself. "The US government" employs hundreds of thousands of people in hundreds of agencies and departments from the USPS to NASA. However, in any criminal cases, especially high level ones involving multiple casualties, big financial gains, or political change, one of the FIRST things that investigators *should* consider in a proper inquiry - is motivation - Cui Bono. In this case, there appears to be be no motivation on behalf of, and undoubtedly no benefit to - the shooter (!)... in fact, the total opposite. In this case, it is also suspicious that the shooter went, in just two short months, from a "stable and gifted intellectual with everything to live for" and "with no criminal record".. to a cold-blooded psychopath... this rapid and inexplicable transformation should be a clue to the possibility that he might not have been acting alone, and he was under some type of hypnosis (possibly a psychoactive/amnesiac substance) at the time of the shooting - just like Sirhan Sirhan, Mark Chapman and others. 

 

Similarly with 9/11, the statement that "the government did it" is ridiculous, for the reason stated above. But in that case, the motivation aspect was never even mentioned, apart from the highly ironic statement from President Bush, who said in the immediate aftermath - "they attacked us because they hate our freedoms". Furthermore, to have explored the motivation/cui bono aspect would have shot holes, or introduced doubts re. the government's case against those it had accused.

 

Who did benefit from 9/11? Who will benefit in this case? 

 

Will we see all the evidence in this case? Not a chance in hell.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #18 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Oh dear. You're implying this was a movie PR stunt?!

 

BTW this isn't necessarily terribly mysterious. You may not realize that movie studios often do advanced screenings of new movies sometimes several days ahead of release. It's possible he was able to attend something like that.

 No I am NOT implying that the studio was involved - you are putting words in my mouth here. However, this attack was planned - very specifically - many weeks ahead of the premier, which suggests that he might have had some advance knowledge.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #19 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

No I am NOT implying that the studio was involved - you are putting words in my mouth here.

 

I wasn't. I was asking a question. That's what the question mark means. So...okay you're not implying the studio was involved.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

However, this attack was planned - very specifically - many weeks ahead of the premier, which suggests that he might have had some advance knowledge.

 

Then what are you implying?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #20 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Exactly.

 

Under these circumstances wouldn't you think it's best to not focus on negativity and not be so nationalistic.

 

That's exactly my fucking point. This has nothing to do with America, being an American, or feeling like an American.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I mean really MJ if you're a caring person...

 

Nice.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

...this is something that happened to all of us. Not just Americans but people. Human beings.

 

No, it isn't. That's another stupid and meaningless statement. It happen to the people in that theater. Quit trying to dramatize it and be narcissistic about it. It didn't happen to you or to me. Show the people it did happen to a bit more respect and dignity than to claim "it happened to all of us." That's pure melodramatic bullshit.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I can easily understand how someone from somewhere else could feel in tune with that. By saying what he did he's expressing his empathy to the place where this happened. Why? Because it could have happened anywhere including the U.K.

 

Whatever. :rolleyes:

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #21 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

At least you understand that. It's kind of like when someone dies and someone makes a negative comment about that person because of personal bias.

 

Or...not at all like that.

 

What's truly crass and insensitive is saying things like "this happened to all of us." It fucking cheapens what really happened to the people it really happened to. Show a little more respect to them instead of trying to make it about you or the broader "we."

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #22 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

At least you understand that. It's kind of like when someone dies and someone makes a negative comment about that person because of personal bias.

 

Or...not at all like that.

 

What's truly crass and insensitive is saying things like "this happened to all of us." It fucking cheapens what really happened to the people it really happened to. Show a little more respect to them instead of trying to make it about you or the broader "we."

In my mind it's you that are showing a lack of respect for the people this happened to. It happened to us all because it could happen to us all. Any of us.  You are being insensitive to people who are being empathetic to the people this happened to. You're trying to turn this into a vehicle for your political beliefs. In that light I suggest we simply drop this out of respect for this terrible tragedy. No I'm right or you're right. Just show some respect and drop it. I'm willing to do that. Ok? 


Edited by jimmac - 7/21/12 at 12:17pm
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #23 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

It happened to us all because it could happen to us all.

 

That makes absolutely no sense.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #24 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

In my mind it's you that are showing a lack of respect for the people this happened to.

 

Well, you're entitled to your own opinion, no matter how illogical it is.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

It happened to us all because it could happen to us all.

 

Wrong. It didn't happen to all of us. Stop saying stupid things like that. It demeans what really happened and to whom it really happened.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You are being insensitive to people who are being empathetic to the people this happened to.

 

You're right. I'm calling bullshit on phony empathy. I don't care that Hands "feels American" because of this or that you think this happened to all of us. I care about the people to whom it actually happened.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You're trying to turn this into a vehicle for your political beliefs.

 

Not at all. I haven't mentioned politics at all. I'm simply calling out this faux empathy and bullshit "we're all victims" sentiment. Those are the things that truly demean what happened.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Just show some respect and drop it.

 

I do have respect and sympathy for the real victims of this terrible crime and I hope to prevent the cheapening of it by those like you who want to glom onto it and claim co-victimization.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #25 of 244
Thread Starter 
Thanks jimmac. I think we're on the same page here.

MJ1970, words don't always have to be taken literally. Sometimes, especially when emotions are involved what's more important is the sentiment. This isn't a study in law or science, it's human emotions.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #26 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

MJ1970, words don't always have to be taken literally.

 

I wasn't taking them literally.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Sometimes, especially when emotions are involved what's more important is the sentiment. This isn't a study in law or science, it's human emotions.

 

Yes, and these kind of expressions (e.g., "this happened to all of us", etc.) make the event more about the person expressing the feelings than it is about the true victims. It is narcissism in one of its worst forms.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #27 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

I wasn't. I was asking a question. That's what the question mark means. So...okay you're not implying the studio was involved.

 

 

 

Then what are you implying?

 

It should be self explanatory - he might have had help, accomplices, or was perhaps a patsy; in other words, the "lone gunman theory" is the lesser likely explanation, when one takes into consideration the lack of motivation, a sudden, inexplicable and radical change of personality, lifestyle, etc.). Of course, the "lone gunman" option is what will predictably trotted out by the media - because that is what most people are most comfortable in believing and/or acknowledging.

 

Edit: this link added: the FBI issued warnings of theater shooting terrorist attacks May 17, 2012, but was subsequently buried.


Edited by sammi jo - 7/21/12 at 2:16pm
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #28 of 244
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I wasn't taking them literally.



Yes, and these kind of expressions (e.g., "this happened to all of us", etc.) make the event more about the person expressing the feelings than it is about the true victims. It is narcissism in one of its worst forms.

I guess that's why you're coming across so aggressively. That wasn't my intention and I hope no one else thinks it was. Or the intention of anyone anywhere expressing their thoughts on this horror.

I think it's important people feel free to express themselves at times like this and I'm a bit concerned you'd rather people keep it in more. I found it important to basically say to everyone here that I care about how you are feeling. That felt important to me. I'm sorry you've taken that as the worst form of selfishness possible, I really am.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #29 of 244

Remember it could happen to anyone of us in our lives.
 

post #30 of 244

Peace to you to brother.

post #31 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

 

The statement that "our government" orchestrated this is absurd and deliberately misleading, in and of itself. "The US government" employs hundreds of thousands of people in hundreds of agencies and departments from the USPS to NASA. However, in any criminal cases, especially high level ones involving multiple casualties, big financial gains, or political change, one of the FIRST things that investigators *should* consider in a proper inquiry - is motivation - Cui Bono. In this case, there appears to be be no motivation on behalf of, and undoubtedly no benefit to - the shooter (!)... in fact, the total opposite. In this case, it is also suspicious that the shooter went, in just two short months, from a "stable and gifted intellectual with everything to live for" and "with no criminal record".. to a cold-blooded psychopath... this rapid and inexplicable transformation should be a clue to the possibility that he might not have been acting alone, and he was under some type of hypnosis (possibly a psychoactive/amnesiac substance) at the time of the shooting - just like Sirhan Sirhan, Mark Chapman and others. 

 

Similarly with 9/11, the statement that "the government did it" is ridiculous, for the reason stated above. But in that case, the motivation aspect was never even mentioned, apart from the highly ironic statement from President Bush, who said in the immediate aftermath - "they attacked us because they hate our freedoms". Furthermore, to have explored the motivation/cui bono aspect would have shot holes, or introduced doubts re. the government's case against those it had accused.

 

Who did benefit from 9/11? Who will benefit in this case? 

 

Will we see all the evidence in this case? Not a chance in hell.

 

Perhaps I misread your statement.  Are you not suggesting that someone (or some group) in government/military planned each attack?  In the past you've insinuated if not openly stated that 9/11 was a false flag operation, meaning that government was involved itself.  Are you suggesting a rogue group within government or the military?  I'm not trying to strawman you here...I would just like to be clear about what you mean.  Please explain.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #32 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

Perhaps I misread your statement.  Are you not suggesting that someone (or some group) in government/military planned each attack?  In the past you've insinuated if not openly stated that 9/11 was a false flag operation, meaning that government was involved itself.  Are you suggesting a rogue group within government or the military?  I'm not trying to strawman you here...I would just like to be clear about what you mean.  Please explain.  

 

Re. Aurora: This was a meticulously planned assault, according to police, by a person whose history and personality does not fit the personality of the criminal who committed this mass murder. It's a complete mismatch. A few months ago, something very drastic happened to this guy, by all accounts a gifted intellectual, "smart as a whip" - enough to make him quit school, abandon a potentially high-flying career and do a 180 from "model student" to "model psychopath". Since the crime was so elaborately planned, obviously there was some motivation behind it, and a crime with a motivation points to a crime with a beneficiary. Was Holmes the beneficiary? Hardly - he was caught red-handed, without a struggle, and he's going to jail for life.

Questions which we will probably never hear the answers: Did Holmes have handlers? What happened to him earlier this year? Was he on a powerful hypnotic/amnesic or "obedience" drug, like scopolamine (if so, he will not recall  much of what might have happened to him in the weeks and months prior to the attack) etc. We haven't been given a story yet, but so far the police have refused to comment on "motive". Perhaps they are as mystified as the rest of us. 

 

Re. 9/11: Another crime (albeit a "mega-crime" in this case) with a long period of planning, and motivation behind it - as opposed to a random act of massive killing and destruction - nobody disputes that. However the motivation in that case was something studiously avoided by the FBI, the government and the corporate media, once President Bush made his comment that "they attacked us because they hate our freedoms". That famous statement was the only motivation for 9/11 that the powers-that-be have ever referred to. It was an ironic statement - because since 9/11, even though life appears to go on without '"tanks in the streets" etc, we here in the US have lost a huge swath of rights and freedoms - not at the hands of those blamed for the attacks, but by our own representatives and executive branch (Bush *and* Obama). No amount of security can prevent terrorism on soft targets... everyone knows this. Who did benefit from 9/11 and the series of pre-planned wars that the public accepted were to be waged, on account of that attack? Who continues to benefit? 

 

I do not know who planned and executed 9/11. I wish I did. I wish we all did. If the story we were told was sound, then any doubts or controversy would be a mere footnote in the annals of history, as opposed to the proverbial 1200lb gorilla in the room. If the attacks were investigated properly, in a timely fashion, then perhaps we would know more, and some of the problems would be resolved. This didn't happen - the executive director in charge of the "inquiry", Philip Zelikow - an administration insider with a conflict of interest and a self-described "myth maker" (see quote below) - was very careful to make sure that a very secure lid was kept on it. 

 

from his wikipedia entry: "While at Harvard, he worked with Ernest May and Richard Neustadt on the use, and misuse, of history in policymaking. They observed, as Zelikow noted in his own words, that "contemporary" history is "defined functionally by those critical people and events that go into forming the public's presumptions about its immediate past. The idea of 'public presumption'," he explained, "is akin to William McNeill's notion of 'public myth' but without the negative implication sometimes invoked by the word 'myth.' Such presumptions are beliefs (1) thought to be true (although not necessarily known to be true with certainty), and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community."

 

Was it a false flag event? Elements within the US government (intelligence/military) have a track record for planning or executing such, and variations thereof, in the last 100 years. Lots of them. Was it an attack solely by the organization billed as "al Qaeda"? All other attacks blamed on them have been ANFO type truck bombs, or bombs incapable of exploding, often involving FBI informants. The sophistication and method of 9/11 was like comparing a professional bank robbery to a shoplifting incident, in other words, wildly out-of-pattern for the alleged perps.

 

We've been around this stuff a lot over the years in here, and nobody's any the wiser. From 2003 onwards, I was never at ease with the 9/11 story, for more reasons than I can count. Call me a "conspiracy theorist" for my skepticism? - i don't care any more - if anything, such could be regarded as a compliment. I don't believe we'll ever know the real story there. In the Aurora case, I have a sneaking suspicion that once again, it will be yet another messy, inconclusive affair with a bunch of stuff that doesn't properly add up. 

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #33 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

This attack, according to the police, was planned a long time in advance...  and movie studios try to keep the plot of unreleased movies under wraps until the premier; however the attacker appeared to have exact advance knowledge "The Joker's" appearance and kit.

 

Not really familiar with the trilogy's storyline, are you Sammi?

 

The Joker was the psychotic villain of the LAST Batman movie. The character is not the villain in this one.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #34 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

 

Not really familiar with the trilogy's storyline, are you Sammi?

 

The Joker was the psychotic villain of the LAST Batman movie. The character is not the villain in this one.

 

You're correct. But my non-familiarity with the Batman series doesn't make any difference to the realities of the attack.

 

2nd shooter?

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #35 of 244

 

 

Quote:

Re. Aurora: This was a meticulously planned assault, according to police, by a person whose history and personality does not fit the personality of the criminal who committed this mass murder. It's a complete mismatch. A few months ago, something very drastic happened to this guy, by all accounts a gifted intellectual, "smart as a whip" - enough to make him quit school, abandon a potentially high-flying career and do a 180 from "model student" to "model psychopath". Since the crime was so elaborately planned, obviously there was some motivation behind it, and a crime with a motivation points to a crime with a beneficiary. Was Holmes the beneficiary? Hardly - he was caught red-handed, without a struggle, and he's going to jail for life.

Questions which we will probably never hear the answers: Did Holmes have handlers? What happened to him earlier this year? Was he on a powerful hypnotic/amnesic or "obedience" drug, like scopolamine (if so, he will not recall  much of what might have happened to him in the weeks and months prior to the attack) etc. We haven't been given a story yet, but so far the police have refused to comment on "motive". Perhaps they are as mystified as the rest of us. 

 

Uh...so?  People commit seemingly random crimes all the time.  Something happening to him does not mean, well, anything.  People lose their minds.  The rest of your statements and questions are just rampant, utterly unsupported speculation. 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

I do not know who planned and executed 9/11. I wish I did. I wish we all did. If the story we were told was sound, then any doubts or controversy would be a mere footnote in the annals of history, as opposed to the proverbial 1200lb gorilla in the room. If the attacks were investigated properly, in a timely fashion, then perhaps we would know more, and some of the problems would be resolved. This didn't happen - the executive director in charge of the "inquiry", Philip Zelikow - an administration insider with a conflict of interestand a self-described "myth maker" (see quote below) - was very careful to make sure that a very secure lid was kept on it. 

 

 

Only the conspiracy nuts are left, sammi.  Many if not all of these theories espoused over the past 11 years have thoroughly debunked.  

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Was it a false flag event? Elements within the US government (intelligence/military) have a track record for planning or executing such, and variations thereof, in the last 100 years. Lots of them. Was it an attack solely by the organization billed as "al Qaeda"? All other attacks blamed on them have been ANFO type truck bombs, or bombs incapable of exploding, often involving FBI informants. The sophistication and method of 9/11 was like comparing a professional bank robbery to a shoplifting incident, in other words, wildly out-of-pattern for the alleged perps.

 

Are you telling me the the us government (as you describe) has a track record of executing things ANYTHING like 9/11?  Can you show even one piece of evidence that our "government" has EVER orchestrated the mass murder of American citizens on American soil?  Come on.  Read what you're writing.  

 

 

Quote:
We've been around this stuff a lot over the years in here, and nobody's any the wiser. From 2003 onwards, I was never at ease with the 9/11 story, for more reasons than I can count. Call me a "conspiracy theorist" for my skepticism? - i don't care any more - if anything, such could be regarded as a compliment. I don't believe we'll ever know the real story there. 

 

You go WAY beyond skepticism.  Way.  

 

 

Quote:

 

In the Aurora case, I have a sneaking suspicion that once again, it will be yet another messy, inconclusive affair with a bunch of stuff that doesn't properly add up. 

 

 

A likely self-fulfilling  prophecy.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #36 of 244
I’ve waited until now to publicly comment so that I could have time to process and work through it in my mind.
 
When I heard about the shooting, I was in the airport waiting to catch a plane for a job interview.
 
It had been a long week for me. I had been riding a roller coaster of emotions leading up to the trip and I had been mostly consumed with my own affairs. A new job two states away would mean significant changes for my family and the implications of the outcome of this interview weighed heavily on my mind.
 
But when I saw the news, suddenly the issues causing me such inner turmoil seemed insignificant.
 
I felt shock, disbelief, horror, anger, sadness, grief - these and so many emotions I’ve come to recognize so well - emotions that evoke memories and images of past and present atrocities.
 
My heart goes out to the victims and their loved ones.
 
I also feel compelled to share a few of my thoughts related to this, hoping that none will take offense, but feeling they need to be said nonetheless:
 
  • Guns are inanimate objects. They are not alive. They are not sentient. Guns, by themselves, are harmless. It is what people choose to do with guns that can cause harm to others. Infringing upon the right of the people to bear arms by prohibiting their ownership will be as effective a deterrent to violent crime as the so-called “War on Drugs” has been to drug use, or as Prohibition was to alcohol consumption. Banning guns will only result in the creation of a dangerous black market for them, as has happened with “illegal” drugs. People who want drugs are able to get them. People who want guns will be able to get them. And people who choose to comply with a gun ban will be at the mercy of the government and those who choose to ignore such a ban. I can’t help but think that if there had been one or two moviegoers in that theater with their own firearms, things might have turned out differently. Fewer lives might have been lost.
  • I think the outpouring of support, sympathy, prayers, and love from the community and from across the country for the victims and their loved ones is beautiful. But I can’t help but wonder why most of us turn a blind eye to the innocent lives - including women and children - being destroyed every day in countries like Afghanistan at the hands of our own military. Is human life only precious if that human is an American citizen? (Our own government doesn’t seem to think so. Not when it is openly detaining and assassinating American citizens without due process.) Do so-called “inalienable human rights” only apply to certain people living within certain geographical boundaries, or do they apply to all mankind? Do those rights come from government? These are questions people must ask themselves and answer honestly if they claim to value life and liberty.
  • It only took a few minutes of watching TV news reports about the shooting on airport TVs to be reminded of why I do not watch cable or network TV news. In my opinion, what these TV “news” organizations are doing is nothing more than exploitation. Interviewing victim after victim, witness after witness, recounting every single second in all its horrific, gory detail for hours upon hours, days upon days - it really serves no other purpose than playing upon people’s emotions to increase ratings and ad revenue. I can almost imagine TV news execs rubbing their hands together with glee planning the coverage of this story in the days and weeks ahead. I can’t stand it.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #37 of 244
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

In more ways that just the horrible death and injury toll, this incident is troubling:

 

The alleged suspect was a "model citizen" and "an exceptional student of high academic achievement", a "PhD candidate with no criminal record". Suddenly he dropped out of his studies, for no apparent reason. This does occasionally happen, but in this case, it is such an extreme slide from "a stable, academically gifted person with everything to live for", to "a cold, calculating psychopath" - this is suspect in itself.

The suspect was heavily in debt from years of school loans and he was unemployed. Where did he get the money to purchase >$20,000 of guns and paramilitary equipment?

Much of the gear owned by the suspect is unobtainable without specific permits. How did he obtain this stuff - which is not available at gun shows or survivalist stores, or on line? 

He lived in a nice apartment and drove a new car.... how was he making his rent payments etc. etc.?

Why did he appear "hypnotized" and "glassy eyed", as if on some heavy duty psychoactive drug (such as scopolamine etc) -  to witnesses in the theater?

This attack, according to the police, was planned a long time in advance...  and movie studios try to keep the plot of unreleased movies under wraps until the premier; however the attacker appeared to have exact advance knowledge "The Joker's" appearance and kit.

 

Love him or hate him, great commentary from Alex Jones here, right on the money. Sorry all you establishment shills out there, but your corporate weasel-media story doesn't add up.  There's something very "not kosher" about this story - to date.

 

 

Have you seen Derren Brown's "The Assassin"? It was shown in the UK.

 

I wonder if he was able to change his own mind through drugs and through what he'd learnt studying. No clue though and certainly I wouldn't jump to any conclusions. 

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #38 of 244
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I’ve waited until now to publicly comment so that I could have time to process and work through it in my mind.
 
When I heard about the shooting, I was in the airport waiting to catch a plane for a job interview.
 
It had been a long week for me. I had been riding a roller coaster of emotions leading up to the trip and I had been mostly consumed with my own affairs. A new job two states away would mean significant changes for my family and the implications of the outcome of this interview weighed heavily on my mind.
 
But when I saw the news, suddenly the issues causing me such inner turmoil seemed insignificant.
 
I felt shock, disbelief, horror, anger, sadness, grief - these and so many emotions I’ve come to recognize so well - emotions that evoke memories and images of past and present atrocities.
 
My heart goes out to the victims and their loved ones.
 
I also feel compelled to share a few of my thoughts related to this, hoping that none will take offense, but feeling they need to be said nonetheless:
 
  • Guns are inanimate objects. They are not alive. They are not sentient. Guns, by themselves, are harmless. It is what people choose to do with guns that can cause harm to others. Infringing upon the right of the people to bear arms by prohibiting their ownership will be as effective a deterrent to violent crime as the so-called “War on Drugs” has been to drug use, or as Prohibition was to alcohol consumption. Banning guns will only result in the creation of a dangerous black market for them, as has happened with “illegal” drugs. People who want drugs are able to get them. People who want guns will be able to get them. And people who choose to comply with a gun ban will be at the mercy of the government and those who choose to ignore such a ban. I can’t help but think that if there had been one or two moviegoers in that theater with their own firearms, things might have turned out differently. Fewer lives might have been lost.
  • I think the outpouring of support, sympathy, prayers, and love from the community and from across the country for the victims and their loved ones is beautiful. But I can’t help but wonder why most of us turn a blind eye to the innocent lives - including women and children - being destroyed every day in countries like Afghanistan at the hands of our own military. Is human life only precious if that human is an American citizen? (Our own government doesn’t seem to think so. Not when it is openly detaining and assassinating American citizens without due process.) Do so-called “inalienable human rights” only apply to certain people living within certain geographical boundaries, or do they apply to all mankind? Do those rights come from government? These are questions people must ask themselves and answer honestly if they claim to value life and liberty.
  • It only took a few minutes of watching TV news reports about the shooting on airport TVs to be reminded of why I do not watch cable or network TV news. In my opinion, what these TV “news” organizations are doing is nothing more than exploitation. Interviewing victim after victim, witness after witness, recounting every single second in all its horrific, gory detail for hours upon hours, days upon days - it really serves no other purpose than playing upon people’s emotions to increase ratings and ad revenue. I can almost imagine TV news execs rubbing their hands together with glee planning the coverage of this story in the days and weeks ahead. I can’t stand it.

 

First off, I hope the job woks out for you.

 

I couldn't watch any of the video footage. I only read about it online, so I could choose to either watch or not watch any videos, unlike TV. The way these snippets were fed like scraps to starving dogs I also found distasteful too. I too am appalled at reporters doing interviews with people who've just suffered some awful event. Someone's just lost half their family in a fire and their being interviewed? Truly awful. Privacy means next to nothing to these reporters.

 

You need to set a driving test and have a licence to drive a car. Why can't Americans sit a test to make sure they understand about the proper use and storage of guns? Why can't all guns sales be registered with up to date information? Spending some resources on that is surely worth it in the lives it would save over time. Anyone who tries to posses guns without going through the proper channels gets say a 5 years in jail and hefty fines to help pay for their incarceration. Let's face it most people would make sure they have there guns all legal with that kind of a threat. Those that don't are the most likely one's to be the one's who leave them around to get stolen or have the neighbours kid accidentally blow their brains out.

 

It's all way too easy in the US to do as this shooter has done. Buy 6,000 rounds and an assault rifle capable of shooting 70 bullets a minute and holding 100 rounds. He did that online with no background checks. 

 

Surely this event has made you at least wonder what can be done to try and lessen the toll guns are taking on the US?   Edit-  You did. You want people to be able to take them with them wherever they are. I suspect that would sometimes have good consequences and sometimes worse consequences. It's not enough to make much of a dent overall.


Edited by Hands Sandon - 7/23/12 at 3:16pm
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #39 of 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I couldn't watch any of the video footage. I only read about it online, so I could choose to either watch or not watch any videos, unlike TV. The way these snippets were fed like scraps to starving dogs I also found distasteful too. I too am appalled at reporters doing interviews with people who've just suffered some awful event. Someone's just lost half their family in a fire and their being interviewed? Truly awful. Privacy means next to nothing to these reporters.

 

The media pretty much sucks.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

You need to set a driving test and have a licence to drive a car. Why can't Americans sit a test to make sure they understand about the proper use and storage of guns? Why can't all guns sales be registered with up to date information? Spending some resources on that is surely worth it in the lives it would save over time. Anyone who tries to posses guns without going through the proper channels gets say a 5 years in jail and hefty fines to help pay for their incarceration. Let's face it most people would make sure they have there guns all legal with that kind of a threat. Those that don't are the most likely one's to be the one's who leave them around to get stolen or have the neighbours kid accidentally blow their brains out.

 

It's all way too easy in the US to do as this shooter has done. Buy 6,000 rounds and an assault rifle capable of shooting 70 bullets a minute and holding 100 rounds. He did that online with no background checks.

 

You assume that such measure would stop something like this. I think that's a faulty assumption. First it only makes it harder for law abiding citizens to obtain tools for their own self-defense, while properly motivated criminals will simply work around the laws and rules.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Surely this event has made you at least wonder what can be done to try and lessen the toll guns are taking on the US?   Edit-  You did. You want people to be able to take them with them wherever they are. I suspect that would sometimes have good consequences and sometimes worse consequences. It's not enough to make much of a dent overall.

 

The real question is why no one in that theater was allowed to have a firearm for self-defense which may have resulted in ending the crime more quickly and with fewer victims.

 

You assume here that the net overall consequences of allowing that would be worse. I find that doubtful. Why is it that you think things would be worse?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #40 of 244
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

The media pretty much sucks.

 

 

 

You assume that such measure would stop something like this. I think that's a faulty assumption. First it only makes it harder for law abiding citizens to obtain tools for their own self-defense, while properly motivated criminals will simply work around the laws and rules.

 

 

 

The real question is why no one in that theater was allowed to have a firearm for self-defense which may have resulted in ending the crime more quickly and with fewer victims.

 

You assume here that the net overall consequences of allowing that would be worse. I find that doubtful. Why is it that you think things would be worse?

 

For one, people would often get shot for just trying to get their gun out to use. Then you could have situations where there is a gun fight instead of simply handing over your money or letting someone else hand over theirs. Obviously too if any one could just walk around with a concealed firearm they may be tempted to use it when giving someone the bird might have sufficed if they'd not had it. 

 

Having sensible registering practices and training in the UK is the biggest reason we have so few gun crimes. I don't see how you can deny it wouldn't help over time. Yes, criminals will still get guns, but it would become increasingly difficult, and over time mean that they are more likely to get caught with an illegally obtained gun. 

 

Let's not forget here either that this shooters assault rifle jammed and that prevented him from killing even greater numbers. If this guy had to have gone out and found an assault rifle et al. on the black market he may have been caught in the process of doing that. instead he just gets online and has everything he wants delivered. No red flags, just red blood.

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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