or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Aurora, CO Movie Theater Shooting
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Aurora, CO Movie Theater Shooting - Page 5

post #161 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

 Whilst I would agree that many of the gun deaths in the USA seem to be the result of drug related crime, thus far, none of the pro gun members here have attempted to explain why other countries with similar rates of drug "abuse" and stricter gun laws have much lower rates of gun violence.

 

There may, or may not be some merit in legalising all drugs but I am not sure that the prohibition of alcohol is a valid argument. Few of the currently illegal drugs ever had wide spread popularity prior to be outlawed and none of them have ever been an essential part of the staple diet. It is also worth noting that other "first world"  states with historically low gun ownership did not see massive rises in gun activity during their periods of alcohol prohibition. 

 

Yet again we need to ask why the USA has such higher rates of gun crime, simply blaming it on drugs is overly simplistic: Comparisons with other similar countries evidences this.

 

And, thus far, none of the gun control advocates have attempted to explain why some countries with high gun ownership such as Switzerland and Finland have very low rates of violent crime.

 

Perhaps the over simplification is happening on both sides of the argument?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #162 of 184
Thread Starter 

Yes. Perhaps it isn't about the guns.

 

Just like owning Messermeister chef's knife doesn't make you a chef or having a can of spray paint makes you a graffitti vandal.

 

Maybe the problem isn't the guns per se and our friends on the left are, once again, focused on superficial symptoms rather than deeper root causes.

 

These latest shootings have other contributing factors. One was allegedly heavily drinking. Let's ban alcohol. Another clearly had some mental or emotional problems. Wait until we find out he was taking anti-depressants (and stopped).

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #163 of 184

What is your answer let ordinary citizens walk around with these idiotic weapons of guns that should be used in the military . Regulate these dam guns once and for all!

post #164 of 184

Just remember, Australia used to have lots and lots of guns. Guns in the hands of hunters. Guns in the hands of criminals. Guns as easily attainable by psychopaths as they are by fathers trying to protect their family. And there were lots of deaths. Lots of robberies. Lots of accidents. Lots of firearms assisted suicides.

 

Then Australia cracked down on gun laws, after someone with automatic weapons killed 35 innocent people in 1996, marking the 13th mass shooting (of five or more people) in fifteen years in that country. The sane people had had enough.

 

Unlike what the Right wants you to believe, the criminals didn't suddenly take over. Assault weapons gradually disappeared from society. Homicides dropped more quickly than before the reforms. Suicides by firearms were halved and total suicides dropped by 25%. There have been no mass shootings (or other mass killings for that matter) in the now 16 years since the reforms. And no, the Australian government hasn't gone all martial law on the newly unarmed citizens.

 

As of 2009,

The USA has 14 times Australia's population, 146 times its firearm suicide deaths (16,883 versus 116 in 2006), and 474 times Australia's firearm homicide rate (12,791 in 2006 versus 27 in 2006/7). While news of the latest gun massacre in the United States remains depressingly common, Australians today enjoy a much safer community.

(Source, with references: http://msl.rsmjournals.com/content/50/1/53.full)

 

You who are saying increased gun regulation will make the US more dangerous than it is today are either really really really stupid, or you are fucking liars who only want what you want because you want it, in the name of "freedom" (and damned be the consequences).

 

Sorry, based on the fact that your "cause" is resulting in the loss of thousands of innocent lives, there is no room for those of you who oppose increased gun regulation in any kind of heaven. When you die, if you believe in it, you will you to hell for this stance.

post #165 of 184
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You who are saying increased gun regulation will make the US more dangerous than it is today are either really really really stupid, or you are fucking liars who only want what you want because you want it, in the name of "freedom" (and damned be the consequences).

 

Sorry, based on the fact that your "cause" is resulting in the loss of thousands of innocent lives, there is no room for those of you who oppose increased gun regulation in any kind of heaven. When you die, if you believe in it, you will you to hell for this stance.

 

So nice to have you back tonton.

 

But there appears to be other information that makes your claims less clear cut:

 

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/cold-hard-facts-on-gun-bans-the-cost-of-liberty-can-be-measured-in-the-loss-of-life_08032012

 

 

Quote:

These localized examples of the detrimental effects of restrictive gun policies are nothing, however, when compared to what’s happened in Australia, where the government implemented a “buy back” program in 1997 that completely banned gun ownership for the general population. While Australia’s politician promised a lower crime rate once the ban was in place, the disarming of its citizens has led to exactly the opposite effect.

 

Quote:
A right stolen by their government, promising safety in return for its gun ban. But now citizens know the frightening truth. The cost of lost liberty can be measured in the loss of life.
 
“It’s become very, very obvious… that the expenditure of half a billion dollars has done absolutely nothing to reduce crime.”
 
“It certainly didn’t do what the government touted it would do, which was to reduce crime. It hasn’t done that at all. In fact, there has been more.”
 
 
“What’s happening today is that the offender, the bad buys, are happy to break into somebody’s house. They’re not frightened to break into somebody’s house while they’re at home.”
 
 
“It’s very bad at the moment. It’s never been worse.“

 

 

Armed Robberies are UP 69%
 
Assaults Involving Guns are UP 28%
 
Gun Murders are UP 19%
 
Home Invasions – a crime for which Australia didn’t even have laws before the gun ban because it never happened – are UP 21%

 

But there's more:

 

 

Quote:
Murders in 1990 23,440 rate 9.4 per 100,000 people
Murders in 2010 14,748 rate 4.8 per 100,000 people
 
In 1990 about 12 states we’re “Shall Issue” with carry permits.
in 2010 43 states are “Shall Issue” with carry permits.
Don't have a source for year by year stats on this, but this article appears to support this claim.
 
In 1990 about 450 people / yr we’re murdered with a rifle of any type
In 2010 about 350 People / yr we’re murdered with a rifle of any type

 

But I'm probably, you know, "cherry picking" here.


Edited by MJ1970 - 8/8/12 at 8:30am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #166 of 184

This is a serious issue which requires a serious tone. And I'm not back.
 

post #167 of 184
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This is a serious issue which requires a serious tone.

 

And your definition of serious appears to be calling people how see things differently than you stupid (or liars) worthy of being in hell. Nice.

 

Do I get to call you stupid or even evil and worthy of being in hell if you want to eliminate a means of people being able to defend themselves, their families and property from assault by dangerous and armed criminals? Do I get to call you a liar if you claim that having firearms doesn't enable people to defend themselves? Would that keep the discussion at a serious tone?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And I'm not back.

 

OK. Then we can just ignore your post. lol.gif


Edited by MJ1970 - 8/8/12 at 8:44am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #168 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This is a serious issue which requires a serious tone. And I'm not back.
 

 

Thanks for your ridiculous rant. Bye.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #169 of 184
Murders in 1990 23,440 rate 9.4 per 100,000 people <-- Assault rifles not banned
Murders in 2010 14,748 rate 4.8 per 100,000 people <-- Assault rifles banned
 
In 1990 about 450 people / yr we’re murdered with a rifle of any type <-- Assault rifles not banned
In 2010 about 350 People / yr we’re murdered with a rifle of any type <-- Assault rifles banned

 

Thanks for proving my point that better regulation is necessary and has been effective in Australia.

post #170 of 184
Armed Robberies are UP 69% <-- From when? To when? Source? Of course not. The fact is that since the strict gun laws came into effect, armed robberies are DOWN.
 
Assaults Involving Guns are UP 28% <-- From when? To when? Source? Of course not. The fact is that since the strict gun laws came into effect, gun assaults are DOWN.
 
Gun Murders are UP 19% <-- From when? To when? Source? Of course not. The fact is that since the strict gun laws came into effect, gun assaults are DOWN.
 
Home Invasions – a crime for which Australia didn’t even have laws before the gun ban because it never happened – are UP 21% <-- Australia didn't have home invasion laws and you cite the reporting statistics of these crimes (again without a source or any context)? What a maroon...
 
 
Your link may have been quoting data that is obsolete, before the advantages of the gun bans have become evident:
 

 

Quote:

The number of violent crimes has decreased, new figures from the Australian Institute of Criminology show.

The institute report Australian Crime: Facts and Figures 2011 shows incidents of murder, assault, sexual assault, and robbery all fell in 2010 from the previous calendar year.

The number of homicides has been in decline since 354 people were killed in 1996. Some 260 murders were recorded in 2010. <-- This is the big one.

The decrease in sexual assault continues a downward trend which started in 2008.

The only category of violent crime which increased in 2010 was kidnapping and abduction which went up from 564 to 603.

 

This is 100% contrary to the lies you posted. And these are the facts, with source, unlike what you posted.

 

Post all the lies and out of context, sourceless gibberish about Australia that you want now, I'm not coming back.


Edited by tonton - 8/9/12 at 1:07am
post #171 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

And, thus far, none of the gun control advocates have attempted to explain why some countries with high gun ownership such as Switzerland and Finland have very low rates of violent crime.

Guns have nothing to do with it. To be 100% honest, the reason these countries have low crime can be traced to socialism. But that's not what you want to hear and you'll never admit that it's the truth.

Show me any first world country that's not more socialist than the us, with looser gun restrictions (or not) and tell me the crime rate there.
post #172 of 184

Do you really believe what you posted? Socialism?
 

post #173 of 184
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'm not coming back.

 

Good.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #174 of 184
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Murders in 1990 23,440 rate 9.4 per 100,000 people <-- Assault rifles not banned
Murders in 2010 14,748 rate 4.8 per 100,000 people <-- Assault rifles banned
 
In 1990 about 450 people / yr we’re murdered with a rifle of any type <-- Assault rifles not banned
In 2010 about 350 People / yr we’re murdered with a rifle of any type <-- Assault rifles banned

 

Thanks for proving my point that better regulation is necessary and has been effective in Australia.

 

The ban on so-called "assault weapons" expired in 2004.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #175 of 184
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

To be 100% honest, the reason these countries have low crime can be traced to socialism.

 

That's not being 100% honest. That's being 100% delusional.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #176 of 184
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

 
Your link may have been quoting data that is obsolete, before the advantages of the gun bans have become evident:
 

 

 

This is 100% contrary to the lies you posted. And these are the facts, with source, unlike what you posted.

 

Post all the lies and out of context, sourceless gibberish about Australia that you want now, I'm not coming back.

 

I see what you've tried to do here. While neither of the links you provided give specifics of crimes involving fire arms, we can take a quick look at the one which you said is "the big one" (murder). Shall we? Now murder and gun crime are not synonymous. But you picked this as "the big one". Let's see what happened:

 

1996: 354

1997: 364 (this is the year the gun ban went into effect)

1998: 334

1999: 385 (oops)

2000: 362

2001: 347

2002: 366

2003: 341

2004: 302

2005: 301

2006: 321

2007: 283

2008: 293

2009: 293

2010: 260

 

From 1996 to 2003 things look pretty steady. Some up. Some down. Net reduction of only about 3%.

 

From 2003 to 2010 things looks much better. Net reduction of about 24%.

 

Again, this doesn't say anything specific about gun crimes. But...

 

In the mean time though assaults are up 50% since 1996.

 

 

But let's not stop there.

 

AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN

 

 

Quote:
It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer.  In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime.  In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.
 
Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:
 
Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:
 
While this doesn't prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy.

 

See more statistics in the link.

 

Australia's Gun Laws: Little Effect

 

 

 

Quote:
Sharing the shock of his people, the newly elected Prime Minister, John Howard — just two months into his eleven-and-a-half years in power — seized the chance to overhaul Australia's gun laws, trampling all opposition to make them among the strictest in the developed world. "I hate guns," he said at the time. "One of the things I don't admire about America is their slavish love of guns ... We do not want the American disease imported into Australia." Howard argued the tougher laws would make Australia safer. But 12 years on, new research suggests the government response to Port Arthur was a waste of public money and has made no difference to the country's gun-related death rates.

 

Quote:
But these changes have done nothing to reduce gun-related deaths, according to Samara McPhedran, a University of Sydney academic and coauthor of a soon-to-be-published paper that reviews a selection of previous studies on the effects of the 1996 legislation. The conclusions of these studies were "all over the place," says McPhedran. But by pulling back and looking purely at the statistics, the answer "is there in black and white," she says. "The hypothesis that the removal of a large number of firearms owned by civilians [would lead to fewer gun-related deaths] is not borne out by the evidence."

 

 

Quote:
Firearm homicides in Australia were declining before 1996 and the decline has simply continued at the same rate since

 

Quote:
And suicide by firearm? Here again, rates were falling pre-1996. And while the decline gained speed after 1996, suicide by other methods began declining then, too.

 


Edited by MJ1970 - 8/9/12 at 7:13am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #177 of 184

MJ1970, why are you bothering to show facts to someone who's clearly not coming back? ;-)

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #178 of 184
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

MJ1970, why are you bothering to show facts to someone who's clearly not coming back? ;-)

 

The facts are here for everyone to see. People can form their own opinions based on these facts and (hopefully) logic.


Edited by MJ1970 - 8/9/12 at 8:39am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #179 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Yes, And? So people with firearms who attempt suicide are more successful in achieving their goal? What is your point?

 

 

My point is that if the swiss want to reduce the levels of suicide they should consider stricter gun control. It miight not reduce the levels of attempted suicide but would hopefully reduce the levels of fatalities.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

 

I've done enough of the math to convince me that overall gun crime in the US is largely related to gang and the drug trade.

 

Let's end the war on (some) drugs and see what happens.

 

Yet you seem to be unwilling to "do the math" when making comparisions to similar countries such as the UK, why is that?

post #180 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

And, thus far, none of the gun control advocates have attempted to explain why some countries with high gun ownership such as Switzerland and Finland have very low rates of violent crime.

 

Perhaps the over simplification is happening on both sides of the argument?

 Both countries have lower rates of drug abuse, both countries have far lower rates of hand gun ownership. In the case of finland, firearm ownership amongst urban dewellers is very low.

 

A better comparison would be the UK Vs USA.

post #181 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

 Both countries have lower rates of drug abuse, both countries have far lower rates of hand gun ownership. In the case of finland, firearm ownership amongst urban dewellers is very low.

 

A better comparison would be the UK Vs USA.

 

Would it? Do the UK and USA have the same demographics? The same culture?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #182 of 184

We both do have these white supremacist assholes that commit acts of domestic terrorism like those of last week in Wisconsin and Missouri.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #183 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

Would it? Do the UK and USA have the same demographics? The same culture?

Never heard of the 51st state?

 

 They are very similar, indeed far more so than any of the countries that the pro NRA enthusiasts cite, ie. the likes of finland and switzerland.

 

We do have some differences, such as a wider welfare state and tougher gun laws, oh, and of course a gun death rate that is about a 40th of yours... 

post #184 of 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungover View Post

Never heard of the 51st state?

 

 They are very similar, indeed far more so than any of the countries that the pro NRA enthusiasts cite, ie. the likes of finland and switzerland.

 

We do have some differences, such as a wider welfare state and tougher gun laws, oh, and of course a gun death rate that is about a 40th of yours... 

Relatively speaking they're quite similar, but I would say Australia (though I've never been there) is a lot more like the US than the UK. There are close ties, hence the 51st state analogy, but the two places are complete opposites in many ways, at least that's been my experience.

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Aurora, CO Movie Theater Shooting