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Apple portrays itself as smartphone underdog in Samsung suit opening remarks

post #1 of 112
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In the opening remarks of Apple's patent infringement suit against Samsung, Apple's attorneys have attempted to portray their company as an underdog that changed the smartphone industry with the launch of the iPhone.

Had the iPhone failed, it could have ended Apple as a company, attorney Harold McElhinny said during Tuesday's opening remarks of Apple v. Samsung in San Jose, Calif. He said that Apple came into the smartphone business with "no name in the field" and "no credibility," according to Josh Lowensohn of CNet.

"On January 9, 2007, when Steve Jobs and Phil Schiller went through that presentation," McElhinny said, referencing the unveiling of the first iPhone, "they were literally betting their company."

Apple's case against Samsung centers on the belief that the smartphone and tablet markets have changed dramatically thanks to Apple. During his remarks, McElhinny showed Samsung products from 2006, before the first iPhone was unveiled, to 2011, when Apple believes Samsung's products were infringing on its patent portfolio.

Tuesday marks the start of arguments in the trail, in which both Apple and Samsung have accused the other of patent infringement. The 10-person jury was selected for the trial on Monday.

Samsung Phones
Apple illustration of Samsung phones pre- and post-iPhone. | Source: Apple trial brief


The trial has begun more than a year and a half after Apple first sued Samsung for allegedly copying the look and feel of the iPhone and iPad. The two sides took part in court-ordered negotiations intended to avoid a trial, but those talks did not result in an out-of-court settlement.
post #2 of 112

If Samsung sells more smartphones then technically this is correct.

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post #3 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb View Post

If Samsung sells more smartphones then technically this is correct.

In 2006, Apple sold zero phones.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #4 of 112

It's hard to imagine, as they are actually profiting more than Samsung, and having Samsung "imitations" exist makes the originals all the more desirable. :)

post #5 of 112

Apple's case against Samsung centers on the belief that the smartphone and tablet markets have changed dramatically thanks to Apple.

 

 

Absolutely, 100% correct. Apple started all of this. 

post #6 of 112

What I never understood is how Android got away with pinch to zoom. I thought Apple had a patent on that plus all the other multitouch gestures. Without those you really don't have much of a smartphone.

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post #7 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

What I never understood is how Android got away with pinch to zoom. I thought Apple had a patent on that plus all the other multitouch gestures. Without those you really don't have much of a smartphone.

If Apple truly had it all sewed up do you really think they wouldn't have asserted them yet?

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post #8 of 112
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

If Apple truly had it all sewed up do you really think they wouldn't have asserted them yet?

 

Patent #7,812,826 was first applied for on December 29, 2006.  Apple owns pinch to zoom.  Just because it hasn't been asserted yet doesn't mean it won't be used, or used later.  Jobs said he'd spend every $ to crush Android for copying.  He meant what he said, and while Cook isn't the fighter Steve was, this is far from over.

 

tl;dr  It will come up sooner or later.  

post #9 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb View Post

If Samsung sells more smartphones then technically this is correct.

By unit sales, sure, but if you count marketshare in terms of profit or mindshare Apple wins hands down. Mindshare is a double-edged sword and can help as well as well hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

If Apple truly had it all sewed up do you really think they wouldn't have asserted them yet?

I've never heard of a great chess players moving his queen out right away simply because it's such a powerful piece.

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

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post #10 of 112

1000

1000

post #11 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf View Post

 

Patent #7,812,826 was first applied for on December 29, 2006.  Apple owns pinch to zoom.  Just because it hasn't been asserted yet doesn't mean it won't be used, or used later.  Jobs said he'd spend every $ to crush Android for copying.  He meant what he said, and while Cook isn't the fighter Steve was, this is far from over.

 

tl;dr  It will come up sooner or later.  

I just reviewed this patent.  I did not look at all the claims.  However, claim 1, at least, is limited to a continuous adjustment of a graphical object through two different gestures.  I.e., the image zooms continuously if you pinch repeatedly.  I just tested this on my Android, in google maps, and it definitely zooms in steps, not continuously.

 

For what it's worth, my entire life savings is in AAPL, and I have every reason to judge in Apple's favor.  But I think Android is probably intentionally avoiding this one.

post #12 of 112

Apple's hardly an 'underdog, by any stretch of the imagination... and this (pictured below) will likely put an abrupt end to all this 'They Copied Our Ideas' nonsense, and the tech world can get back to competing on a fair/level playing field without fear of Apple's overly-litigious antics:

 

 

700

"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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post #13 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf View Post

 

Patent #7,812,826 was first applied for on December 29, 2006.  Apple owns pinch to zoom.  Just because it hasn't been asserted yet doesn't mean it won't be used, or used later.  Jobs said he'd spend every $ to crush Android for copying.  He meant what he said, and while Cook isn't the fighter Steve was, this is far from over.

 

tl;dr  It will come up sooner or later.  

err... that patent really covers 'multiple gestures in succession'

 

from engadget at the time:

 

 

Quote:
 
"Apple doesn't have a patent on "pinch-to-zoom" generally, but rather pinching to zoom, and then pinching to zoom again within some fixed period of time."

 

I do think when the other phones start to get as responsive as a iPhone/Pad, then this patent comes into play (as long as you have to wait for the screen to respond, the experience sucks...  but when I can pinch in rapid succession and get 'instantaneous' response to each, then the lawyers will be firing up the C&D letters.

post #14 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


By unit sales, sure, but if you count marketshare in terms of profit or mindshare Apple wins hands down. Mindshare is a double-edged sword and can help as well as well hurt.
I've never heard of a great chess players moving his queen out right away simply because it's such a powerful piece.

Apple's not playing chess. It's thermonuclear war.

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post #15 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Apple's hardly an 'underdog, by any stretch of the imagination... and this (pictured below) will likely put an abrupt end to all this 'They Copied Our Ideas' nonsense, and the tech world can get back to competing on a fair/level playing field without fear of Apple's overly-litigious antics:

 

 

700

 

Concepts. Everyone can pull em out of thin air. 

 

Try again. 

post #16 of 112

You are completely missing the point!  Did you not read the article?  Samsung did not bring any of their concepts to market because they sucked and could not figure out all of the "problems" associated with the products.  There is no doubt that Samsun is ripping Apple off!  None!

post #17 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Apple's not playing chess. It's thermonuclear war.

... and often when one goes 'thermonuclear' they end up blowing themselves up.
"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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post #18 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb View Post

If Samsung sells more smartphones then technically this is correct.

 

 

It doesn't matter what either sell now. It matters what both sold back when Apple first introduced the iPhone. Apple faced entrenched players, which was why Nokia's CEO stated publicly Apple was nuts if it thought it was just going to come into the phone market and unseat entrenched players who understand the market better. 

post #19 of 112

I don't think the before/after comparison is fair, because the operating system dictates how will the phone look like. 

post #20 of 112

Once again Apple's legal team takes shortcuts and alters things to suit their needs.  First off we all know that product designs can take 18-24 months from creation to launch and the I700 (silver phone lower right corner pre-iPhone) was a 2003 launch so saying it was a 2005 phone is way off.  They of course are selectively showing Samsung Windows Phones at the time which Android did not exist and thus their focus was dictated based on technology trends at the time.  Android came along and was focused on touch based input so designs evolved over time.  One thing is for sure a lot of HTC, Dell, Palm, Motorola etc. devices evolved as well.

post #21 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by xmiku View Post

I don't think the before/after comparison is fair, because the operating system dictates how will the phone look like. 

Not just look but also how the user interfaces and inputs data.  With the push towards touch enable devices being the consumer demand it was clear that (phones being rectangular) with flat surfaces and larger displays unless your Apple and you think 3.5" is still acceptable in the world of 4.5"+

post #22 of 112

Follow @tim on Twitter to get live updates from inside the courtroom. Interesting stuff.

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post #23 of 112
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Originally Posted by Munchies View Post

You are completely missing the point!  Did you not read the article?  Samsung did not bring any of their concepts to market because they sucked and could not figure out all of the "problems" associated with the products.  There is no doubt that Samsun is ripping Apple off!  None!

It's actually worse.

Samsung is essentially saying "we evaluated all these prototypes that look nothing like the iPhone and could easily have released a phone that did not mimic the iPhone so exactly, but we chose not to because of Apple's success, so we chose a phone that looks nearly identical to the iPhone. Nice job making Apple's case.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #24 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post

err... that patent really covers 'multiple gestures in succession'

 

from engadget at the time:

 

 

 

I do think when the other phones start to get as responsive as a iPhone/Pad, then this patent comes into play (as long as you have to wait for the screen to respond, the experience sucks...  but when I can pinch in rapid succession and get 'instantaneous' response to each, then the lawyers will be firing up the C&D letters.

 

The real story is that "pinch to zoom" actually has so much prior art that it's probably impossible to patent.  

 

What happened is that multi-touch was actually around for a while before Apple started using it so there are tons of examples of people using the simple pinch to zoom gesture, as it's a fairly obvious and easily discoverable one.  However, since before Apple, almost no one was using multi-touch gestures on a screen for a device (Fingerworks focussed almost exclusively on peripherals for example), a set of "standard gestures" did not really develop before Apple popularised the multi-touch computing concept.  

 

Apple figured out a system of "standard" gestures that it thought were logical and patented them with the release of the original iPhone so as these gestures started to become used, Apple had the patents on them locked up.  The really, really, obvious, intuitive gestures like pinch to zoom however were already in use for a long period beforehand so really simple stuff like that can be used by anyone (at least until the patent is asserted, challenged, and ruled on).  

post #25 of 112

To all of you: think back to 2005, 2006 and 2007. Where were Apple then? Success? In the mobile phones market? The court hearings are not about today!

post #26 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

 

Concepts. Everyone can pull em out of thin air. 

 

Try again. 

 

Man you fanboys are thick. Apple did not invent the a rectangular object with a piece of glass. As the picture just showed inside samsung before the iphone, they were thinking of your basic picture frame design. 

 

Apple is wasting its time on this rectangle nonsense. 

 

They need to go after touchwiz, that is wear samsung had no shame. 

post #27 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Techstalker View Post

 

Man you fanboys are thick. Apple did not invent the a rectangular object with a piece of glass. As the picture just showed inside samsung before the iphone, they were thinking of your basic picture frame design. 

 

Apple is wasting its time on this rectangle nonsense. 

 

They need to go after touchwiz, that is wear samsung had no shame. 

and packaging

post #28 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Apple's not playing chess. It's thermonuclear war.

Fine, if you want to choose to be obtuse about that common metaphor then: You don't detonate before it's time.

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

 

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post #29 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

What I never understood is how Android got away with pinch to zoom. I thought Apple had a patent on that plus all the other multitouch gestures. Without those you really don't have much of a smartphone.

I can quote SF from the 2007 keynotes  "... and boy, did we patent it"  

 

So I am assuming Apple has wall to wall patents over the iphone design and fonctionnality.   They could make them UI "essencial" patents and license them the same way lots 3g patents are license as "essencial"

 

I think this is going to end up with both companies being force to license patents to each other.  If Apple really has the pinch to zoom and proximity sensor patents, they why not just license them to everyone at a fair price ? Those are much more concrete patents then "rectangle" or general look and feel of the design...


Edited by herbapou - 7/31/12 at 12:57pm
post #30 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Fine, if you want to choose to be obtuse about that common metaphor then: You don't detonate before it's time.

I wasn't being at all obtuse. What about Apple's legal strategy so far makes you believe there's any subtlety involved, that they're "holding back"?

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post #31 of 112

1000

1000

post #32 of 112
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Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post


... and often when one goes 'thermonuclear' they end up blowing themselves up.

Example?

post #33 of 112
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Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Example?

Thank goodness there isn't one!!

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post #34 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightcmech View Post

I just reviewed this patent.  I did not look at all the claims.  However, claim 1, at least, is limited to a continuous adjustment of a graphical object through two different gestures.  I.e., the image zooms continuously if you pinch repeatedly.  I just tested this on my Android, in google maps, and it definitely zooms in steps, not continuously.

 

For what it's worth, my entire life savings is in AAPL, and I have every reason to judge in Apple's favor.  But I think Android is probably intentionally avoiding this one.

Maps may not be the best place to test that since the tiles are discrete sizes. Try it in the picture viewer app and see if it zooms continuously or in steps.

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post #35 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Thank goodness there isn't one!!

That wasn't the point of my question.

post #36 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I wasn't being at all obtuse. What about Apple's legal strategy so far makes you believe there's any subtlety involved, that they're "holding back"?

Because this is the how universe works, except perhaps for the Big Bang but you'll have to ask Dick Applebaum about that. Apparently his ears are still ringing from it. :D
Edited by SolipsismX - 7/31/12 at 1:50pm

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post #37 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

What I never understood is how Android got away with pinch to zoom. I thought Apple had a patent on that plus all the other multitouch gestures. Without those you really don't have much of a smartphone.
Apple's patent for pinch to zoom is not all encompassing, nor is it even pinch to zoom, but rather specific to a technique which makes use of multi-touch. Additionally, the validity of the patent (949 or 381, can't remember which) was still in question last I checked.

By the way, given that the 'pinch gesture' and 'multi-touch' date back to 1982-1983, Apple has and is having a tough time utilizing patents in this area, legally I mean.
post #38 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_Me View Post

and packaging
Packaging can't be patented, unless it is part of a product. The logo's on the packaging can be trademarked, but not patented.
post #39 of 112

Sony Clie 2000. My first PDA. Scroll wheel FTW!!!!

 

 

1000

post #40 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Example?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post


... and often when one goes 'thermonuclear' they end up blowing themselves up.

1000

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