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Samsung 132-page 'copy cat' doc comparing Galaxy S with iPhone admitted into evidence

post #1 of 117
Thread Starter 
Apple was able to get a Samsung internal document admitted in full in its case against the South Korean company on Tuesday, with the report offering a potentially crucial comprehensive side-by-side comparison of the Galaxy S and the iPhone.

Sections of the 132-page document titled "Relative Evaluation Report on S1, iPhone" were shown during Friday's proceedings as an argument that Samsung willfully copied Apple's design patents, but the entire document wasn't admitted into evidence until Tuesday.

As reported by All Things D, the internal Samsung report was authored in 2010 by the company's engineering team which meticulously compares and contrasts the usability and design of the Galaxy S against the iPhone. Many of the results seem to be in favor of the iPhone's design implementation as Samsung's engineers offer solutions to make the Galaxy S UI operate more along the lines of iOS.

The methodical report first compares the two handsets, points out the differences and offers "Directions for improvement" which sometimes take the form of Apple's already-instituted solution. Everything from home screen icons to phone apps were studied, bringing comments ranging from fixing screen overlapping to filling empty spaces with a "loading" sign as seen in the soon-to-be defunct iOS YouTube app.

Samsung Report
Source: Apple v. Samsung court documents


While the document itself is not a silver bullet for Apple, it does illustrate that Samsung was well aware of the iPhone's design assets and was actively comparing its own products to the handset. This does not prove that willful infringement took place, however it does at least offer a look into Samsung's operating mindset.

The Cupertino company must still prove that Samsung infringed on its asserted design patents and Tuesday's document, while powerful, is unlikely to seal the case on its own.

post #2 of 117
1) For a company so adept at copying it's ironic that they can't get the brand name spelling right.

2) @ jrargosta, Remember that conversation we had about the previous comparative document? I don't have the same view on this one. I'd say it's ambiguous, at best, what was the author's slant because he did mention the usability aspect of the End Call button but there certainly seems to be some "follow the leader" going on here instead of thinking for one's self that I think will hard for a jury to ignore.
Edited by SolipsismX - 8/7/12 at 8:34pm

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post #3 of 117

If only Samsung were better at "Hidung"...

post #4 of 117

Of course! This is the most obvious way in which you can make improvements to your product - By comparing it to a successful competitors' Product, what's new in it guys, GROW UP!

 

Okay apart from the sarcasm, this document is..... well, unbelievable. But I'm pretty sure Samsungs' counsel will find a way to justify this too.

post #5 of 117
Wow, I didn't think it was THAT bad. Samsung, you truly did copy Apple. I don't know how you are going to get past this one
post #6 of 117
I love how they are pretending to try... "Move loading to the middle of the LCD" like the iPhone. "Make the call end button large with nothing around it" just like the iPhone. When going through the slides I was waiting for "Just copy the iPhone and get it over with".
post #7 of 117

Wow! After looking at that document, it is extremely clear that they picked darn near every screen and copied the iPhone. Sometimes in appearance. Sometimes in the UI usability. These were all things that Apple spent so much time on... the little details. This is exactly why Apple spend so much careful time in R and D. They don't always get it right, but they're right more than they're wrong in my opinion.

 

Granted Apple cannot do much about most of this, but what it does indicate is that Samsung was definitely clearly trying to copy the iPhone.

 

Question: Are all of the "Directions for Improvement" instructions aimed and Google to improve Android or are these features that Samsung cobbled onto Android and they need to improve? I guess, I'm a bit unsure how much Samsung hack and patched the stock Android OS.

 

It would be interesting to see how those screens in question look now. I'm betting that they look more like the device on the left than they do the device on the right.

post #8 of 117

Wow. I've been skimming through this document and it is absolutely stunning how systematically they worked to copy the iPhone design aesthetic and UX. Now one commenter said that yes, this is the type of review you'd expect, but being in the UX industry for about 10 years, there is a difference between reviewing your own screenshots and making direction, and comparing another product, making direction and giving an engineer the "correct" UI on the left side. As another review stated, they didn't say it, but it was heavily inferred that they copy the UI/UX on the left.

 

This is wholesale copying of everything that made me go "wow" when Steve Jobs announced the iPhone.  This is stuff that was not obvious then and made the iPhone something brilliant. Here we see Samsung picking that apart and giving direction as to how to copy all those usability features that Apple spent years refining.

 

The article is correct that this does not necessarily mean they violated design patents (although some of these directions definitely show that they were doing just that), but it does show how they used the hard work and design genius of Apple's designers for their own benefit.


Edited by jkichline - 8/7/12 at 8:44pm
post #9 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) For a company so adept at copying it's ironic that they can't get the brand name spelling right.
2) @ jrargosta, Remember that conversation we had about the previous comparative document? I don't have the same view on this one. I'd say it's ambiguous, at best, what was the author's slant because he did mention the usability aspect of the End Call button but there certainly seems to be some "follow the leader" going on here instead of thinking for one's self that I think will hard for a jury to ignore.

As in the last report, it's going to depend on what they did with the report. If they simply compared their phone to the iPhone to find areas for improvement, it's not a bad thing. OTOH, if they compared their phone to the iPhone and then copied everything from the iPhone to ameliorate the deficiencies, it's an entirely different matter. Unfortunately, that appears to be what they did.

Anyone expecting a single knock-out blow will be disappointed. Rather, Apple is attempting to show a pattern:
- Samsung stumbles around, tries a bunch of things and can't get it right.
- Samsung then compares their product to the iPhone
- In almost every case, Samsung copies the way the iPhone does it.

If Apple is able to convince the jury of that, they will win.
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post #10 of 117

$2,500,000,000?

$25,000,000,000.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

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post #11 of 117

Where the hell would these companies be, and this industry be, without Apple to teach them fucking everything. There wouldn't be a template of 'how to do it right', so to speak. 

 

Pathetic. 

post #12 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay1985 View Post

Of course! This is the most obvious way in which you can make improvements to your product - By comparing it to a successful competitors' Product, what's new in it guys, GROW UP!

 

Of course! The most obvious way in which you can improve your grade in school is to cheat by copying a successful competitors' homework. GROW UP!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunks View Post

If only Samsung were better at "Hidung"...

 

They are. It's now called "Galaxy" lol.gif

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post #13 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63 View Post

Wow! After looking at that document, it is extremely clear that they picked darn near every screen and copied the iPhone. Sometimes in appearance. Sometimes in the UI usability. These were all things that Apple spent so much time on... the little details. This is exactly why Apple spend so much careful time in R and D. They don't always get it right, but they're right more than they're wrong in my opinion.

 

Granted Apple cannot do much about most of this, but what it does indicate is that Samsung was definitely clearly trying to copy the iPhone.

 

Question: Are all of the "Directions for Improvement" instructions aimed and Google to improve Android or are these features that Samsung cobbled onto Android and they need to improve? I guess, I'm a bit unsure how much Samsung hack and patched the stock Android OS.

 

It would be interesting to see how those screens in question look now. I'm betting that they look more like the device on the left than they do the device on the right.

 

Actually, the Lanham Act does support Apple's position. "Trade dress" is as protectable as any patent or copyright and Apple has done their homework this time around. I have a very strong suspicion that Samsung will come out of this with large welts on their executive heads.

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GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #14 of 117

As a for instance of blatant copying.  The document states this about the iPhone's World clock when compared to the S1 on page 54:

 

"i-Phone: Displays the second hand on the clock and information about Yesterday and Today"

"Directions for Improvement: Need to display the second hand on the clock and information about Today and Yesterday"

 

Umm... Yes, that's right... Samsung just said "copy this verbatim".  The original S1 screen had a digital read out and was a TERRIBLE UI and they just told their designers to copy it.

post #15 of 117

Page 89 on how to enter latin characters via the keyboard.

 

"Directions for Improvement: Modification requested to enable input of additional Latin characters directly from the ABC mode as in the iPhone"

 

The reviewer has requested a modification to copy the iPhone right there...

post #16 of 117

I've read through that long scribe document and am just floored.  All those details that Samsung dissected made me realize how incredible the Apple teams are in putting these devices together in hardware and software.  To take that much effort in those tiny details that I would never have noticed.  Like having the bookmark sign shaded out because the web page is blank.  That alone is a tiny detail that I never noticed but I guess Samsung phone idiots are just eager to bookmark everything possible.  That scribe article was both incredibly entertaining and educational.  Thanks for displaying it.  I never would have seen it anywhere else.  I only use this site to get my apple fix since it is thorough with reporting as much of any news as possible for apple.

 

My hat's off to the site team.  Keep up the coverage for the case.  I'm tuned in everyday multiple times and will continue to do so regularly.

post #17 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

As in the last report, it's going to depend on what they did with the report. If they simply compared their phone to the iPhone to find areas for improvement, it's not a bad thing. OTOH, if they compared their phone to the iPhone and then copied everything from the iPhone to ameliorate the deficiencies, it's an entirely different matter. Unfortunately, that appears to be what they did.
Anyone expecting a single knock-out blow will be disappointed. Rather, Apple is attempting to show a pattern:
- Samsung stumbles around, tries a bunch of things and can't get it right.
- Samsung then compares their product to the iPhone
- In almost every case, Samsung copies the way the iPhone does it.
If Apple is able to convince the jury of that, they will win.

This comparative list is tame. It doesn't suggest they need to steal anything, just make it better. Maybe Samsung should do all their comparisons in such a way from now on. Like reverse engineering this could be reverse innovation, perfectly legal but still somewhat shady.


comp.jpg

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #18 of 117

OK, one more I promise. Page 131 in regard to home screen icons... The directions for improvement are:

 

Insert effects of light for softer, more luxurious icon implementation

Make the edge curve more smooth to erase hard feel

Remove a feeling that iPhone's menu icons are copied by differentiating design

 

In other words, they COPIED the icons and then made them a little different hoping they wouldn't get caught!  What's the difference between that and plagiarizing a school paper, but running it through a thesaurus and changing the font size so it's not identical?  It's still plagiarism people!!!

post #19 of 117

Samesung.

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post #20 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

 

Of course! The most obvious way in which you can improve your grade in school is to cheat by copying a successful competitors' homework. GROW UP!

 

 

They are. It's now called "Galaxy" lol.gif

 

I think a couple people didn't get that I was being sarcastic. The copying is just so blatant....... (speechless). And yet I'm pretty sure that someone would still think this is fine and come up with a similar response, and then I was like..... What the hell, let me do a favor for the rest of the naysayers (and type it out for them)

post #21 of 117

I skimmed through the entire document and finally saw this at the end and just about spit out my beer.  I couldn't believe I had just read that statement, the last one in the translation...  It really does sum up the whole problem (and the increasing problem for Samsung).

 

As I have read the coverage of this trial, I have become much more convinced by Apple's arguments and case than I was previously.  I think Samsung has a real problem here...

post #22 of 117

I'm wondering..... how do both companies manage to acquire such sensitive documents?

post #23 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay1985 View Post

I'm wondering..... how do both companies manage to acquire such sensitive documents?

I believe it was require by law. They can't legally delete or alter anything but they can legally give you so much data that the relevant stuff is harder to find.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #24 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkikrome View Post

I've read through that long scribe document and am just floored.  All those details that Samsung dissected made me realize how incredible the Apple teams are in putting these devices together in hardware and software.  To take that much effort in those tiny details that I would never have noticed.  Like having the bookmark sign shaded out because the web page is blank.  That alone is a tiny detail that I never noticed but I guess Samsung phone idiots are just eager to bookmark everything possible.  That scribe article was both incredibly entertaining and educational.  Thanks for displaying it.  I never would have seen it anywhere else.  I only use this site to get my apple fix since it is thorough with reporting as much of any news as possible for apple.

My hat's off to the site team.  Keep up the coverage for the case.  I'm tuned in everyday multiple times and will continue to do so regularly.

Shaded icons when function not available? I did this for more than 15 years! Hey, maybe I was the first one to do this. Can I claim 2,5BUSD now?
post #25 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkichline View Post

OK, one more I promise. Page 131 in regard to home screen icons... The directions for improvement are:

Insert effects of light for softer, more luxurious icon implementation
Make the edge curve more smooth to erase hard feel
Remove a feeling that iPhone's menu icons are copied by differentiating design

In other words, they COPIED the icons and then made them a little different hoping they wouldn't get caught!  What's the difference between that and plagiarizing a school paper, but running it through a thesaurus and changing the font size so it's not identical?  It's still plagiarism
 people!!!

No, it literaly says: we need to make better looking icons, and we don't want it be in a way that they look like the iPhone's. In fact, this is clearing Samsung.
post #26 of 117

And we all think Apple does not compare iOS to android usings sheets and states

 

* We need to alter notifications and have them drop from the top bar

* We need to have camera button on the lock screen

 

yeah right, Apple developed those features with designers who had been locked in an isolation cell since 2004...

post #27 of 117

you mean to admit that samsung did copy apple? lol

post #28 of 117

SAMSUNG IS SO BUSTED! =) I BET THEY ARE TRYING SO HARD TO HIDE THESE DOCUMENTS.  OOPS, THIS ONE DID NOT GET DELETED.

 

KOREAN COPY JAPANESE CARS, GE REFRIGERATOR, AND NOW APPLE IDEVICES.

 

HAS ANYONE SEEN HOW SAMSUNG COPY APPLE RETAIL STORE? THEY EVEN HAVE APPLE APP STORE ICON ON THEIR POSTERS!  

post #29 of 117
]

HOLY COW!

How embarassing for Samesung.
This goes way beyond anything I would have expected!
post #30 of 117

There is absolutely nothing wrong with studying a competitor, that’s good business practice.
There is everything wrong with then writing a detailed series of steps to precisely emulate that competitor.


This is damning evidence.

post #31 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

$2,500,000,000?

$25,000,000,000.

I say forget the money. This case should be treated like Enron and all executives involved in the iClone campaign should face jail time. I didn't think that moving Choi from CEO to another position in the company did much as far as sending a message. The fines may cause downsizing and employees will suffer, but those directly responsible for making the decision to copy will not.

Either jailtime or the fines should come directly out of the executives' pockets. One Won salary for them for the rest of their lives, regardless of whichever companies they end up working for.

Do the crime, do the time.
Edited by uguysrnuts - 8/8/12 at 2:13am
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post #32 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkichline View Post

As a for instance of blatant copying.  The document states this about the iPhone's World clock when compared to the S1 on page 54:

 

"i-Phone: Displays the second hand on the clock and information about Yesterday and Today"

"Directions for Improvement: Need to display the second hand on the clock and information about Today and Yesterday"

 

Umm... Yes, that's right... Samsung just said "copy this verbatim".  The original S1 screen had a digital read out and was a TERRIBLE UI and they just told their designers to copy it.

 

I thought this example was rather funny as they totally missed the point. The visible second hand on the iPhone's clocks are a cool visual effect, but it has nothing to do with "being considerate towards users" or making the clocks less "difficult to recognize." The main difference here was that the Samsung clock displays were way too small and low-res, which is what made their clocks harder to see.

 

This emphasizes the point that Samsung was blindly copying everything from the iPhone even when they didn't understand the reasons why the iPhone design worked better.

 

 

 

1000

 

 
 
 
 
post #33 of 117

Sorry Apple shareholders, but I can not see any problem with this report.  You do analyse your products with competition and improve on competition.  This is what you call 'innovation' that Apple has been doing, isnt it?

post #34 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

There is absolutely nothing wrong with studying a competitor, that’s good business practice.
There is everything wrong with then writing a detailed series of steps to precisely emulate that competitor.


This is damning evidence.

 

 

Studying a competitor to learn from them: e.g. Jon Ive suggesting a team designer come up with a design "as if Sony had designed it", is a standard learning practice… I have a book in my design library called "Digital Dreams, The Works of the Sony Design Center"… I also have books from P.I.E. that are entire collections of great examples of graphic design. I draw inspiration and learnings from these… that's learning from those who went before… "compose a variation in the style of Bach"… Newton's "on the shoulders of giants" concepts in practice... 

 

This document pretty clearly crosses a line. It is a point by point detailed study of what Apple is doing right. That's fine on its own. It also illustrates comparatively where their product is weaker, and why, which is also fine. It could ALSO contain suggestions how to improve and that would be totally acceptable.  However, here's where the line crosses… they could suggest UNIQUE solutions, even sometimes similar solutions. But instead, over and over, they fall into a pattern of suggesting essentially, "how to make our UI be more like  (or even "exactly like") theirs"...

 

That's copying. Pure and simple.

 

Samsung tried to make it look as if "do an experimental mockup in the style of Sony" is the same as this… 

 

Is it possible they really don't understand the difference?

post #35 of 117

yet more direct evidence of Samesung coping the iPhone.  Best outcome of this trial would be for Samesung to be banned from selling cell phones period since alls Samesung does is copy Apple.

post #36 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz1 View Post

No, it literaly says: we need to make better looking icons, and we don't want it be in a way that they look like the iPhone's. In fact, this is clearing Samsung.

It might have had the effect you believe - if Samsung had created better icons instead of simply copying Apple. You have to look at the document in context. After completing this document, Samsung made lots of changes - and most of them involved copying what Apple did. How does that clear Samsung?
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post #37 of 117
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post
How does that clear Samsung?

 

Because even when they're found guilty, the trolls will say they're innocent and that Apple just wants a monopoly.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #38 of 117

Man, Android looked like a car wreck back then - the whole thing was a complete mess of inconsistent fonts, weird font sizes, clashing colours and seemingly random screen layouts. (I am led to believe it has improved a lot with ICS / Jellybean, but I've not really seen either in any depth to judge)

 

Reading through that doc shows why Apple products are of such high quality and so user friendly - Apple go out of their way with the little details that have no real actual purpose in and of themselves (and are probably not even consciously noticed 9 times out of 10) but that work wonders to make the user experience feel that much more polished and professional...

post #39 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

But instead, over and over, they fall into a pattern of suggesting essentially, "how to make our UI be more like  (or even "exactly like") theirs"...

 

That's copying. Pure and simple.

 

Samsung tried to make it look as if "do an experimental mockup in the style of Sony" is the same as this… 

 

Is it possible they really don't understand the difference?

 

Take that assumption 'Sammy is copying Apple' away for a moment and read again.  

 

Of course, if you truly like some aspects of competition, then you would want yours be more like them.  Does this translate to 'copy'?

 

BTW, this report analyses Galaxy S and iPhone and made suggestions after Sammy marketed Galaxy S obviously.  Can you tell me any Sammy smartphone since Galaxy S that looks alike iPhone any more than Galaxy S?  You can not prove that Sammy is copying Apple from this report.


Edited by hjb - 8/8/12 at 4:18am
post #40 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjb View Post

Sorry Apple shareholders, but I can not see any problem with this report.  You do analyse your products with competition and improve on competition.  This is what you call 'innovation' that Apple has been doing, isnt it?

Seriously dude? This document shows time and time again where Samsung tried and failed. They didn't innovate at all. They effectively said "our's sucks and we need to fix this... so copy what Apple did". Not just once or twice, but over and over again. That said, all they'll likely be called on in the end is a few specifics, but this document clearly shows a deliberate  effort to copy Apple's work. Notice that they weren't referencing anyone else's handsets as solutions to fix that god awful mess?

 

Apple spent years in R and D getting the building blocks right. Each screen of the samsung looks like it was designed by someone different -- and it probably was. It was clearly rushed out the door as quickly as possible as their response to the iPhone. If Samsung actually spent the years in R and D like they'd have us believe, they wouldn't have screwed the pooch so badly and been forced to copy Apple the way that they did.

 

What this document really illustrates is the difference between taking your time, carefully thinking things through, paying attention to the details, actually understanding what your doing and floundering because you haven't a clue. When you finally realize that you haven't a clue, you resort to point by point copying, because that is quickest way to fix things. They could innovate, but it was quicker and easier to just copy.

 

Heaven and earth, indeed.

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