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Court docs reveal Samsung sold 21M phones, 1.4M tablets worth $8B in US since 2010 - Page 2

post #41 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

A couple of days ago there was a report (IDC?) that claimed Android with nearly 70% of the EU smartphone market with Apple around 17%. Guess which Android licensee is #1? Even in China where Samsung isn't nearly the market presence as in other areas, they still lead Apple 3:1 in smartphone sales according to market research from back in March. The US is really the only large market where Apple has such a large percentage of smartphone sales. Of course most of the profit is probably coming from the US too.

As Soli said, projecting worldwide sales based on just US figures isn't even remotely reliable. The rest of the world isn't sharing the same metrics.

BTW, I think the reason only US sales are being shown is because those are the only ones that apply to this case with regard to possible damages. What Samsung does in the rest of the world isn't part of this suit and thus doesn't matter.

Both Gartner and IDC claimed Samsung had 70% more smartphone sales compared to Apple in the US for the first 2Q this year. Google data can point he way foe Nexus sales. The G III was not out.

The question is how these firms will be trying to figure out how they have been so far off the past 2 years and how they over-estimated Samsung sales by 300 to 400 %
post #42 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

The article and related charts are US only sales, and in the case of Samsung numbers, only particular phones accused by Apple of infringement. It's not all of Samsung's US smartphone sales.

What Samsung sold outside the US isn't applicable to this case.

It does represent the vast majority and their most popular models. Expect Samsung's #1 smartphone spot offered by IDC and Gartner in the US to drop to 3 or 4.
post #43 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post


It does represent the vast majority and their most popular models. Expect Samsung's #1 smartphone spot offered by IDC and Gartner in the US to drop to 3 or 4.

 

And expect Samsung stock to get hammered tomorrow.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

 

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

 

Get the lowdown on the coming collapse:  http://www.cbo.gov/publication/45010

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post #44 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post


Both Gartner and IDC claimed Samsung had 70% more smartphone sales compared to Apple in the US for the first 2Q this year. Google data can point he way foe Nexus sales. The G III was not out.
The question is how these firms will be trying to figure out how they have been so far off the past 2 years and how they over-estimated Samsung sales by 300 to 400 %

I don't know if it's as high as 3x - 4x, but in broad terms, you're spot on.

 

I have no doubt that clients of Gartner and IDC will want to know too.

post #45 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post


Both Gartner and IDC claimed Samsung had 70% more smartphone sales compared to Apple in the US for the first 2Q this year. 

 

Based on what source? I think you are confusing with the global market.

post #46 of 115

So all of that shameless copying and thats all they sold? What about all those shipped units they have been bragging about?

 

Maybe they should actually start putting Apple's logo on their boxes and name their next gen mobile the galaxy eyephone.

post #47 of 115

fascinating! lots of material for real "analysis" about Samsung at last here.

 

just looking at tablets, since there are only three models of all kind which makes it easy, three things jump out:

 

- of the original 7" Galaxy tab that was so hyped as the first Android tab in late 2010, we already knew 2.2 million were shipped world-wide at least. so 725K were actually sold in the US. the average wholesale price at launch was $588. whereas the last 60K sold so far this year average a heavily discounted $383. for all three years, the average price was $448. and what about the other 1.5M in the rest of the world?

 

- US sales of all Samsung tablets have COLLAPSED this year. in 2011, all three models sold a total of 983K units (including 404K of that original Galaxy) at an average wholesale price of $426. but so far this year, they are selling at an annual rate (2X actual 6 months) of only 386K units, a 61% drop! and at an average price of $368, 14% less. 

 

- all 10" tablet sales came to a screeching halt in the second quarter. due to the lawsuits?

 

these are SAVAGE US numbers for 2012.

 

what's happening to Samsung? 4Q 2011 tablet sales were still ok, so it wasn't the Kindle Fire. the Google/Moto Nexus just started last month. the Transformer? oh yeah, there was iPad 3 with 4G ... maybe that had an impact ...

 

i'm sure Samsung does much better in the rest of the world. and they can always dump heavily discounted leftover inventory in the developing world.

post #48 of 115

And I wonder how many Samsung smartphones are actually running Ice Cream Sandwich, vs Gingerbread.    Samsung is PA-THE-TIC.

 

Samsung did sell some WIndows smartphones too.  They're just hedging their bets.

post #49 of 115

Notice, the charts that Apple presented are much nicer to look at and easier to read than Samsung's. Kind of shows you how deep Apple's design ethos goes.

 

Edit: On second thought I'm wondering if these are the actual charts that were submitted into evidence. Considering they have the same color scheme, I'm thinking they likely were copied from the records and reformatted. Unless Samsung copied that too. :)


Edited by Mynameisjoe - 8/9/12 at 9:42pm
post #50 of 115
I think these numbers probably explain the 2.5 billion that Apple is asking for in this suit. 2.5 billion would probably be the likely profit that Samaung made on the sales of the infringing devices in the US.

Is this a case where the damages may be trebled if Apple wins? Maybe, if Apple wins, they can do a worldwide deal with Samsung on the patents/trademarks associated with this case and a lot of these lawsuits can be put to rest.
post #51 of 115

ok, some more fun with numbers.

 

according to NPD, in Q2 2012, Samsung sold 24% of US smartphones, while Apple sold 31%. so Apple sold 1.3X as many iPhones as all Samsung phones combined (all Android i believe).

 

https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/pressreleases/pr_120808

 

we now know Apple actually sold 8.3M iPhones in the US in Q2 2012, while Samsung sold only 2M in the list given to the court. are there any newer Samsung models missing from this total?

 

if not, Apple actually sold 4.2X as many smartphones in the US as Samsung. to make the NPD report true, Samsung would have had to sold 6.4M units here. is the court list missing 4.4M newer models?

 

i don't think so. i think the NPD numbers have been revealed to be total utter crap instead.

 

oh, and for Q1, the NPD Apple/Samsung US sales ratio reported be NPD was 1.2. but actually we now know it was also 4.2 (unless there were 6.3M newer Samsung models not counted in the court docs).

 

do you suppose NPD will issue a retraction now?

 

this whole "analyst" industry - NPD, IDC, Gartner and the rest - are a fraud. they get paid to pull numbers out of their butts.

post #52 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post

 

These are Samsung's Android phones. It's not including Windows phones and others.

 

Considering the Win Phone (and others) market share, that's not going to add a lot to the numbers here…...

post #53 of 115
[How well does this compare to analysts estimates?
post #54 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

 

And expect Samsung stock to get hammered tomorrow.


Why?

 

They are a very large vertically integrated conglomerate.  This storm in a teacup involves a single market for only one line of products that they manufacture.  Every sale by Apple is a partial sale by Samsung, due to their parts comprising a percentage of most of the devices Apple makes.  Their overall financial results have been very good and I don't think investors would be put off by this information as it does not seem to have adversely affected their profits.  AFAIK the stock in Samsung Electronics is traded on the London Stock Exchange.

 

It really does seem very hard for a lot of US based posters on here to think globally.

post #55 of 115

Well with the Prevail, with 2.25 million being one of their top sellers, it's no wonder the average selling price is $350.

 

Let's take a closer look at the all important specs.

 

Screen 3.2" 320x480 pixels, no AMOLED here folks.

117MB onboard memory (most of it probably full of undeletable network based crapware).

800MHz Qualcomm processor, no sign of a GPU.

Shipped with Android 2.2 Froyo, wonder if it ever got Gingerbread, let alone Ice Cream Sandwich or Jellybean.

2 Megapixel camera with QVGA video, freaking awesome, welcome to 2007 iPhone territory.

 

What a powerhouse, this represents Samsung, this represents Android, no wonder it's so fragmented.

 

Rejoice fandroids, welcome to reality.

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post #56 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The joint trial exhibit, first discovered by All Things D, shows Samsung sold 21.25 million smartphones between June 2010 and June 2012, generating revenue of about $7.5 billion.

 

Samsung can definitely afford the $2.5 billion patent infringement damage award they will soon owe Apple.

No problem.  

 

And they'll still have a few billion in revenue left over from their iPhone and iPad clone sales.  Which they will be able to use

to develop distinctive, innovative designs that don't look and work exactly like Apple designs.  Isn't that what all those bitter

Android Apologists are yapping about?  "Choice!"  "Innovation!"

 

Then again, look what happened to Microsoft and Nokia.  Square corners.  Blue plastic.  Ugly flat rectangular icons

with truncated text.  Samsung can learn from Nokia and Microsoft's mistakes.  Somebody has to.  Might as well be Samsung.

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post #57 of 115
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Yes. That's also not a joke. This place is sort of getting me through a rough patch.

Get well soon. Apple saved my life.
post #58 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post

Both Gartner and IDC claimed Samsung had 70% more smartphone sales compared to Apple in the US for the first 2Q this year. Google data can point he way foe Nexus sales. The G III was not out.
The question is how these firms will be trying to figure out how they have been so far off the past 2 years and how they over-estimated Samsung sales by 300 to 400 %

So basically the Samsung US numbers we've been fed all along are bullsh*t. Got it. Suprise, surprise. Sure, there's lots of Samsung smartphones out there but for every one you see there's an iPhone as well. So Samsung has mainly eaten up the other Android phones for the most part.

As for tablets, there are still those numbers of iPad only being 70% or something which I think is total fantasy.
post #59 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

The US is really the only large market where Apple has such a large percentage of smartphone sales. Of course most of the profit is probably coming from the US too.

 

 

Apple has announced non-US sales making up around 65% of total sales, for several years now.

 

In reality most of Apple's profit is coming from outside the US.

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post #60 of 115

So, did this thread actually disappear or is my imagination running riot?

 

Quite smooth: Samsung actually sold 1/10 of the 2 million Galaxy Tabs it claimed in 2010

Where are we on the curve? We'll know once it goes asymptotic!
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post #61 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post

So basically the Samsung US numbers we've been fed all along are bullsh*t. Got it. Suprise, surprise. Sure, there's lots of Samsung smartphones out there but for every one you see there's an iPhone as well. So Samsung has mainly eaten up the other Android phones for the most part.
As for tablets, there are still those numbers of iPad only being 70% or something which I think is total fantasy.

The numbers presented for the trial, I believe, are for the infringing products only. There are probably other phone sales of products that don't infringe but I will bet they are much lower priced feature phones instead of smart phones.
post #62 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealg View Post


The numbers presented for the trial, I believe, are for the infringing products only. There are probably other phone sales of products that don't infringe but I will bet they are much lower priced feature phones instead of smart phones.

 

So basically crap that slips under the radar, the Higg's bosun of the Android world, a Galaxy of dark matter, there but not really there.

 

There must be a hell of a lot of it.

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post #63 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

 

So basically crap that slips under the radar, the Higg's bosun of the Android world, a Galaxy of dark matter, there but not really there.

 

There must be a hell of a lot of it.

 

Or not-crap like the Galaxy S3

post #64 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

ok, some more fun with numbers.

 

according to NPD, in Q2 2012, Samsung sold 24% of US smartphones, while Apple sold 31%. so Apple sold 1.3X as many iPhones as all Samsung phones combined (all Android i believe).

 

https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/pressreleases/pr_120808

 

we now know Apple actually sold 8.3M iPhones in the US in Q2 2012, while Samsung sold only 2M in the list given to the court. are there any newer Samsung models missing from this total?

 

if not, Apple actually sold 4.2X as many smartphones in the US as Samsung. to make the NPD report true, Samsung would have had to sold 6.4M units here. is the court list missing 4.4M newer models?

 

i don't think so. i think the NPD numbers have been revealed to be total utter crap instead.

There's a few that Apple missed....

 

The Galaxy Note, Mini2, Ace Plus, Ace 2, Galaxy Beam, Galaxy S Advance. . .

 

It looks like Samsung may have started rolling out revised models (S Advance, Ace Plus, etc) with changes perhaps meant to avoid Apple infringement claims beginning early in the year. Those devices don't appear to be included in Apple's lawsuit. In essence there looks like there could be a lot of Samsung models sold since early this year that aren't accounted for in the charts.


Edited by Gatorguy - 8/10/12 at 3:35am
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post #65 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

A couple of days ago there was a report (IDC?) that claimed Android with nearly 70% of the EU smartphone market with Apple around 17%. Guess which Android licensee is #1? Even in China where Samsung isn't nearly the market presence as in other areas, they still lead Apple 3:1 in smartphone sales according to market research from back in March. The US is really the only large market where Apple has such a large percentage of smartphone sales. Of course most of the profit is probably coming from the US too.

As Soli said, projecting worldwide sales based on just US figures isn't even remotely reliable. The rest of the world isn't sharing the same metrics.

BTW, I think the reason only US sales are being shown is because those are the only ones that apply to this case with regard to possible damages. What Samsung does in the rest of the world isn't part of this suit and thus doesn't matter.

Edit for added links
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-11/iphone-fails-to-gain-china-share-as-samsung-lead-triples-tech.html
http://finchannel.com/Main_News/Tech/114030_Android_Takes_Majority_Smartphone_Share_Across_Western_Europe/

The problem is that no one knows how many smartphones and tablets Samsung sells, or ships quarterly, as they haven't provided those numbers since early 2011. Occasionally, they will give us numbers for one specific model that has done well, but that's all. All the numbers we see are just guesses, which aren't that useful, because the companies making them can't look to real numbers to enable them to test their methodology.

For example, a quarter ago, we saw numbers from 32 million from iSupply, to 38 million from IDG, and 44.5 million from some small company I had never heard of before. Which number was right? No one knows!

These numbers, even though they are just from the US, and just the infringing models ( almost all of the Android models) are much smaller than what I expected. Only about 10 million a year. That's just about 2.5 million per quarter. How that jibes with these multi tens of millions a quarter, I don't know. The US is about 25% of the worlds market right now, and was a larger portion a couple of years ago. Even if we divided it so that 15 million was from the last year, and 5 million from the year before, that would still just give under 4 million per quarter. Even if we add another 25% to account for the tiny Win Phone sales, and some other non infringing sales, it's still pretty small.

I've always believed that Samsung sells fewer smartphones than anyone realizes. Companies state that they aren't going to give out the numbers any longer because the numbers are poorer, not because they are better. We can see how poor the tablet sales are. Smasung themselves said a few months ago that their tablet sales were doing "poorly".

I think they are very upset about having to release these numbers. It really puts into question those android percentages we read..

The Bloomberg article is screwed up. IPhone marketshare in china last quarter went from just under 9% the quarter before to almost 19%. That's a pretty big jump for a company that's on just about 25% of the phone subscribers on the major networks on China.
post #66 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

There's a few that Apple missed....

The Galaxy Note, Mini2, Ace Plus, Ace 2, Galaxy Beam, Galaxy S Advance. . .

It looks like Samsung may have started rolling out revised models (S Advance, Ace Plus, etc) with changes perhaps meant to avoid Apple infringement claims beginning early in the year. Those devices don't appear to be included in Apple's lawsuit. In essence there looks like there could be a lot of Samsung models sold since early this year that aren't accounted for in the charts.

And you really think that those less popular models made up 4-5 million units? Do really, in heart, believe that? What does Occam's razor say?

Perhaps, given a vacume of information about Samsung's distribution of sales, companies made up numbers to fill the void?
post #67 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by mausz View Post

Or not-crap like the Galaxy S3

Was the GS3 shipping in the US 6 months ago?
post #68 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


<...>I think they are very upset about having to release these numbers. It really puts into question those android percentages we read..
The Bloomberg article is screwed up. IPhone marketshare in china last quarter went from just under 9% the quarter before to almost 19%. That's a pretty big jump for a company that's on just about 25% of the phone subscribers on the major networks on China.

 

 

Not to mention the fact that, when it comes to please your shareholders, you tend to pump up figures, but when it comes to pay the taxes (fine, in this case), you tend to go the opposite way. Still, the figures disclosed are a pretty good indication on how far Sammy figures have been exaggerated. 

post #69 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by mausz View Post

 

Or not-crap like the Galaxy S3

 

The minority, you mean?

 

Unlike big sellers like the Prevail.

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post #70 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post


And you really think that those less popular models made up 4-5 million units? Do really, in heart, believe that? What does Occam's razor say?
Perhaps, given a vacume of information about Samsung's distribution of sales, companies made up numbers to fill the void?

I've no idea how many of those sold, nor does anyone of us. Didn't ATT report the Note was their number two (or was it three?) seller at some point? Can't remember for sure. Would it be possible, perhaps even likely that at least a million Galaxy Nexus "Google" phones were sold among the various carriers? Could a combo of three or four other models make up a million or so? Maybe two million? Does any of that sound so unreasonable?

 

Yes it's certainly possible that worldwide Samsung sales numbers were less than estimated. Some may even say it's likely. I might even be one of those people. But iIt's also possible they weren't. The chart of sales for infringing devices can't be used to prove or disprove it as there's too many missing models, including hi-profile Nexus and Notes. Even my quick list wasn't meant to be all of them that Apple didn't target and require sales data for.

 

While I might agree that there's signs that estimates of their sales could be high, you're trying to prove it with a limited list of sales figures for specific models. It won't work as proof.


Edited by Gatorguy - 8/10/12 at 4:58am
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post #71 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post


And you really think that those less popular models made up 4-5 million units? Do really, in heart, believe that? What does Occam's razor say?
Perhaps, given a vacume of information about Samsung's distribution of sales, companies made up numbers to fill the void?

 

Well going on the price of Samsung's high end phones and the average from the chart of $350 per "smartphone" sold, there are a hell of a lot of cheap phone's being sold to pull that average price down.

 

It looks like Android = Touchwiz on low powered phones for a majority of users.

 

Edit

 

Actually the average is $334 for 2012.


Edited by hill60 - 8/10/12 at 5:03am
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post #72 of 115
Which is why NPD the past few days was singing a different tune. Gone were the Samsung sells gazillions more. They knew the gig was up with the release of these docs.

Still every headline NPD releases manages to put in Samsung as being at par with apple.

NPD is lucky Samsung did not have to release worldwide sales. They can still fudge the numbers.
post #73 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I've no idea how many of those sold, nor does anyone of us. Didn't ATT report the Note was their number two (or was it three?) seller at some point?

 

Yes, Note was #2 ... when counting bulges in pants.

post #74 of 115

As a side note, I won't be surprised if Apple is required to break down US iPhone sales by model before all is said and done in this case. That's something they've never done before. The charts submitted to the court so far show iPhone sales as a group rather than by model.

 

Going by quick and dirty numbers it appears a bit less than half of Apple's US iPhone sales are the 4S, roughly 47%, with the slight majority of sales, 53% or thereabouts, being  the older 4 and 3GS (around 16M 3GS and 30M 4's?). I don't believe Samsung is asserting any patent claims against the 4S, so the number of possible infringing iPhones that Apple is reporting (bottom of their sales chart) should be those old models.


Edited by Gatorguy - 8/10/12 at 6:00am
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post #75 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N. View Post

Both Gartner and IDC claimed Samsung had 70% more smartphone sales compared to Apple in the US for the first 2Q this year. Google data can point he way foe Nexus sales. The G III was not out.
The question is how these firms will be trying to figure out how they have been so far off the past 2 years and how they over-estimated Samsung sales by 300 to 400 %

Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

And I wonder how many Samsung smartphones are actually running Ice Cream Sandwich, vs Gingerbread.    Samsung is PA-THE-TIC.

Samsung did sell some WIndows smartphones too.  They're just hedging their bets.

That's exactly the point I was making. All the figures out there grossly overestimated Samsung's sales of high end phones. Even these numbers include a lot of low end junk since the SAP is only $350.

As for your question, it has been well established that the vast majority of Android phones out there are still running some variant of Android 2.2 or 2.3-and few of them will ever be updated. I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that Samsung is any different.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #76 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


That's exactly the point I was making. All the figures out there grossly overestimated Samsung's sales of high end phones.

Did they? What were some of the percentages of smartphone sales as high-end being claimed by any of the market data companies? I don't recall any of them saying the most expensive models were outselling the mid or lower-tier ones. I might be wrong, but you'd have to give me a link to prove your claim. Personally I've always assumed that the entry level Samsung phones outsell the hi-end models, but I have no way to prove it and wouldn't make the mistake of claiming it as a fact.

 

Or perhaps you're stating this report is proof that sales of hi-end phones not listed in the chart were over-estimated? Again a link would be needed to establish a bit of validity for your claim, as well as your reasoning behind how you tie-in the chart of possible-infringing devices to determine sales of those not shown.

 

It's entirely possible that Samsung sales estimates in the US were too high. they also might have been too low. None of us know for certain. You and a couple of others are trying to prove it by relying on the reported sales of models that Apple specifically targeted, ignoring any sales contribution from those that they didn't. Wouldn't even you agree that methodology is fatally flawed?


Edited by Gatorguy - 8/10/12 at 5:46am
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post #77 of 115

Not one bit surprised. Already Galaxy SIII here is heavily discounted.

post #78 of 115
Quote:
Among the top sellers was the Galaxy S II, which sold over 4.1 million copies

 

I like what you did there :-D

post #79 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

It doesn't matter. It's still far, far lower than the number of iPhones that Apple sold in the US. So all the "Samsung sold more smartphones than Apple" stories were nonsense. You'd think that people would learn that making numbers up doesn't serve anyone.

The numbers weren't made up. They were what Samsung told us. But then we learned they were telling the sell in numbers to the channel. Not the sell out to users, which is what is in these documents
post #80 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

A couple of days ago there was a report (IDC?) that claimed Android with nearly 70% of the EU smartphone market with Apple around 17%. Guess which Android licensee is #1? Even in China where Samsung isn't nearly the market presence as in other areas, they still lead Apple 3:1 in smartphone sales according to market research from back in March.

Take a good look at how they get those numbers. It's fraught with potential bias, statistically unsound calculations etc.
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