Court docs reveal Samsung sold 21M phones, 1.4M tablets worth $8B in US since 2010 - Page 3

Where did any market analysis in the past couple of years claim Samsung sold more smartphones in the US than Apple has? Yes, you'd think people would learn. . .

Those numbers might just end up being a blessing in disguise for Samsung. Apple might've been better off comparing Samsung's numbers against the other manufacturers than their own. It makes Samsung look like a small fry instead of a worthy competitor.

Absolutely agree for the most part (not sure about statistically unsound as I don't see a detailed explanation how the calculations were derived).

 

Those China/Europe/Worldwide numbers are based on snippets of market data combined with various methods of extrapolating and using additional indicators. Perhaps some educated guesses in there too. So there's a lot of assumptions probably being made, making these simply estimates. They're not "real" results, anymore than sales figures for a few specific US model smartphones are representative of the worldwide market which is what some posters are trying to prove based on those sales charts. 

Why? They're a distant second but doing much better than those behind it

Read what jragosta wrote again. He IS talking about 'sales' not 'sell in numbers to the channel.' The point is, consulting firms, journalists, and fandroids have often been reporting on or conflating the latter as 'sales.'

The reason for this is that companies like Samsung will not provide audited sales numbers. Obviously because the numbers are not as good as they slyly claim it is, and they don't want to look foolish. But a court document like this gets closer to the truth.

i saw that too but it doesn't exist apparently. Sammy claimed 2 million shipped world wide and only 260K were sold to end-users in the US. I highly doubt 1.7 million were sold outside of the US.

It may have moved off the home page but still in the forums. 

http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/151854/quite-smooth-samsung-actually-sold-1-10-of-the-2-million-galaxy-tabs-it-claimed-in-2010

Just an aspect that I've not seen in this thread.

Given the contempt with which Samsung has been shown to treat the US court system and the antics they have already be caught at. What are the chances that the sales numbers they are releasing to the US courts are artificially low? I'm sure there are all kinds of ways Samsung could lose some significant fraction of their sales. After all, their internally calculated numbers have to be based on communication back from the actual sales channel and Samsung have already shown they play fast a loose with electronic communications. Also, there's little to no chance the entire sales channel will be subpoenaed so Apple can do their own calculation.

Perhaps Samsung see the writing on the wall and want to limit their US exposure to a damage award, as well as the "thumb a nose at the foreigners" attitude that appears to be a cultural game played across the east-west divide.

I would love to catch the analysts at some "pick numbers out of the wrong hat" game but this is a huge discrepancy that serves Samsung quite well right now (at least for damages calculations).

Do the numbers foot with Samsung's US tax returns?

What a grand turn of events. Must order in some more popcorn.

 

1.4M tablets seems quite smooth.

It leaves out the most popular models like the Galaxy Nexus and III S.  It would be like reporting Apples numbers and only using phones up to the 3G model....

Not likely; the counter-claims by Samsung don't seem to impact individual models, at least as far as I understand.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't believe the 4S is included in Samsung patent claims, which is why the number of possibly-infringing iPhones noted at the bottom of the chart is around half the number of iPhones reported sold.

 

So to be clear, Samsung's patent claims don't apply to the 4S to the best of my knowledge.

 

EDIT: Confirmed that Samsung's IP infringement claims don't include the 4S. It would faster to confirm had AI not cropped off the source notes at the bottom of the original Apple doc. I eventually found it anyway.

Edited by Gatorguy - 8/10/12 at 10:51am

I also feel numbers are cooked to reduce damage claims. Who is to check the authenticity of these?

How can Apple claim even 2 billion dollar of damages if average selling price is so less? What is profit per handset Samsung is earning ?

At 15% margin it is at 1.2 billion dollar.

Now compare .67 billion revenue in quarter 2 2012 with around 20 billion dollar revenue Samsung mobile division earned during the same period

Even if half of the revenue is from Smartphones , rest of the world sales is 15 times.

Numbers from american analytics companies regarding the world outside of the US should be taken with even more salt than numbers for the US. These geniouses know nothing about european consumers.

Norwegians buy whatever phone they want, don't give a crap about price and we change phones at an insane rate, almost as fast as tech- journalists.
Numbers from the two largest phone companies reveal that Samsung has one phone model in the top 10 so far in 2012. Galaxy S2 in number 3 spot. Number 1 is iPhone 4s, number 2 is iPhone 4. The rest are HTC,Sony and Nokia.

Providers subsidize most phones so all my students (8th grade) have smartphones in the Galaxy S2/HTC One price range, and I work out in the boondocks where people are all lower middle class by norwegian standards. The only smartphone NOT being heavily subsidized in Norway is the iPhone 4S, and still it oustsells everything else. And many students work outside of school so they can afford to upgrade to the 4S.

These numbers are of course not relatable to nations in asia and developing countries, but the swedish numbers are exactly the same, only theret he Galaxy S3 is in the 3rd spot, top two are the same as here.

Now Sweden does not have Norways cash reserves, and are not as protected from economic turmoil spreading from Greece, Italy and Spain. But still they buy expensive phones like there's no tomorrow.

For the european countries where the economy IS failing, most people don't buy the iPhone 4/4S because of the price. They also don't buy Samsung Galaxy phones or 1st tier android handsets in general. They buy older models that are cheap but still have most of the cool new features. One of these phones is the iPhone 3GS, which is guarranteed to run the latest version of iOS.
Getting the similarily priced competing phones won't even guarantee you Android 3.0

Based on my knowledge of consumer trends in Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Germany, (which are the languages I can read national economic and tech news in) Apple has the most popular models in all the strong economies, and also one of the most popular phones among financially strapped europeans.

Of course this is only what I can read from the top providers in each country, directly from the sources who actually SELL the phones, so my numbers are just as speculative as those comming from financial advisors on Wall Street...

Touchwiz? Is this a slang similar to lacrosse in Canada?

You keep going about phones -- this must be the umpteenth time you've posted in this thread about how the smartphone numbers don't include the S for both Apple and Samsung, please know that we get that, and we heard you twice the first time.

 

A lot of the litigation is about the tablet as well, and those numbers -- 1.4M versus 34M -- are not only relevant, but accurate. That is the truly pathetic number.

No reason to doubt them as far as I know.

It isn't possible for any Samsung phone to be the most popular phone on AT&T, except for maybe a day or so. Last quarter, when Apple's sales went down because people are waiting for the new phone, AT&T stated that the iPhone was 73% of their smartphone sales. The quarter before, when people weren't yet thinking about the new phone in significant numbers, that percentage was 78.5%. Phone popularity there is, in order; 4S, 4, 3GS, then a Samsung, at much lower sales numbers.

Except for this chart of course, the only phone sales numbers Samsung gives out are their total shipping numbers for all their phones, and the occasional numbers for one model they feel has done particularly well. Those numbers could be for a month, three months, or six months. It's also usually their top line, or the one right below it. But other than that, no one knows what they ship, much less sell. A quarter ago we saw guesses from 32 million to 44.5 million. None of those numbers could be confirmed. The wild difference between the numbers show they're just a guessing game, with none of these firms knowing anything at all. It could be that even the lowest guess was too high.

This isn't about US sales numbers, but it illustrates what I've been saying about the uselessness of the guessing going around with Samsung's numbers. You'll notice that Samsung said that numbers were DOWN 10% on all their phones, and that smartphone shipments followed that trend. Yet, the guesses had the smartphone numbers from them going up!

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/story/2012-04-27/samsung-apple-smartphone-sales/54584550/1

Be a bit more thuthful please. These weren't a "few" models, they were most of Samsung's models, and they likely accounted for a good 75% of what they sold here, including the Win Phone models.

I've seen that argument from posters on the financial forums. But they are obviously fanboys from the language they use, and the insistance that Samsung's numbers can't possibly be that bad.

A company takes real risks if they submit documents are are false. It's highly doubtful that this is the case here. We can be pretty sure that Apple has their own ways of having some idea as to the actual shipments and sales of Samsung. If they think the numbers are wrong, we can be sure they will say so.

Thats simply not going to happen.

 

Well, they DID lie about their numbers a few years ago. Since nothing has improved, why wouldn't they keep lying?

 

 

Of course they were only a few models Mel since they only listed US ones, and even then not all that were available for US sale. Are you another who feels they can extrapolate the worldwide results from US numbers alone? I would think you're sharper than that. I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume you misunderstood what I wrote in the first place.

Edited by Gatorguy - 8/10/12 at 3:45pm

Not in court. Not here. That's a very dangerous game.

They were most all of the models they sell here. Most of the rest of the models sold elsewhere are the same models with differing names.

... and?

let's just cut to the chase: all these reports from IDC and the rest - including global stats - are just plain old BS guesswork dishonestly presented as facts.

 

at best. 

 

at worst, they are taking bribes ... er, consulting fees, to skew them for some big client. does anyone seriously think Windows Phone 8 will have a bigger market share than iPhone by 2016? well, IDC does.

 

http://www.geekwire.com/2012/idc-trims-windows-phone-projections-sees-microsoft-2-2016/

 

the judge has ordered Samsung and Apple to disclose who they are paying in the blogsphere for whatever. i'm not sure how broad the disclosure has to be, but it should make great reading in a few weeks when it comes out. arrogant Apple ain't paying anyone (except ads of course). but Samsung? ah ...

 

*shrug* How would they ever be caught?

That was Judge Alsup, and it's in the nearly complete IP case between Google and Oracle. Nothing to do with Samsung and Apple.

 

BTW those reports of paid bloggers and journalists (!) are due next Friday.

Touchwiz is samsungs own UI for android on there phones.

Not true. If it's found to be infringing US patents, it matters that it's sold IN THE US.

 

The very same phone could be found to not infringe German/Korean/Russian/Martian patents, and hence keep being sold there.

 

Anyway, what's I'm really interested in is "did Samsung really copy the iPhone with the goal of having people buy it thinking it is some kind of iPhone", as it has been claimed. As I've written elsewhere here, I'm absolutely against the Apple claims of "infringement" on software, not really convinced about the claims of infrigement on design (for obvious comparisons with what's done in cars or plane businesses... or I'd like to see Boeing banned from making several of the planes it makes to compete against Airbus ;) ), but I do definitely think that if Samsung did try to swindle the general public by selling "iPhones that are not iPhones", then they should be punished.

 

Of course, I have absolutely no idea if this is even remotely true.... I guess I don't understand anything to/in/of Marketing :D

Think. This is a US trial, not one for overseas models.

It's notas hard as you think. If app,e really though that the figures were false, the court could appoint a forensic team to investigate them. There's no way a company could rework all of their numbers from suppliers, distributers, retailers, etc. it's far too much.