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First rumored photos of new Dock Connector plug for iPhone 5 show 8 pins [u] - Page 2

post #41 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post

Would a micro or mini USB been so hard?  Why do we need yet ANOTHER non standard data connector that does exactly what all the other STANDARD connectors do?
 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by chabig View Post

How is it that you're so intimately familiar with the specifications and capabilities of this new mystery connector?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Because Dock Connector 2 will do more than gimped MicroUSB ever could, probably.

 

 

So USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 can connect every other kind of device in the world EXCEPT Apple products?  Why? Does Apple use some secret faster-than-light subspace transmission mode that requires their connectors to think differently? Need more pins than USB 2.0? Guess what - USB 3.0 has more pins.

Everything coming out or going into the iPortables is either digital data or analog audio . None of which requires an exotic non-standard connector.

 

Why does it matter? Because when Apple abandons it non-standard connectors (ex 30 pin) it orphans a boatload of devices and cables made for that standard. And it means that you cannot use the same charging and sync cable that your sue for all your other devices - leading to more consumer confusion, needless duplication, and e-waste. This is why the EU has made micro USB the required standard connector for all phones.

post #42 of 109
I'm hoping they've designed the new connector in a way that lets them later upgrade to Thunderbolt without again changing the connector. That would presumably require using some pins to identify the electrical protocol. The same pins could also serve as power and ground, since they don't change while the connector is plugged in.
post #43 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post

 

So USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 can connect every other kind of device in the world EXCEPT Apple products?  Why? Does Apple use some secret faster-than-light subspace transmission mode that requires their connectors to think differently? Need more pins than USB 2.0? Guess what - USB 3.0 has more pins.

Everything coming out or going into the iPortables is either digital data or analog audio . None of which requires an exotic non-standard connector.

 

Why does it matter? Because when Apple abandons it non-standard connectors (ex 30 pin) it orphans a boatload of devices and cables made for that standard. And it means that you cannot use the same charging and sync cable that your sue for all your other devices - leading to more consumer confusion, needless duplication, and e-waste. This is why the EU has made micro USB the required standard connector for all phones.

 

I think what you're forgetting (and what a lot of people are forgetting), is that this plug is for iOS devices not PC's.  iOS devices and Android devices are a new platform that is more or less separate from regular PCs in the same way as the original PC's were a platform independent of, and separate from the mainframes and other computers that preceded them.  Apple has between 80% and 98% of this market sewn up with iOS.

 

This means that Apple making it's own "proprietary" connector for these devices is quite a different thing from them making a proprietary connector for their laptops or desktops.  This is no different from IBM's proprietary connectors in the early desktop market in that sense and really isn't the big deal everyone is making out.  Sure, technically it's proprietary, but in another way it's the new standard as well.  If the market was divided 50-50 between Android and iOS there might be an argument for standard connectors, although with different OS's it's hard to see a need even then.  

 

Most of the arguments for "standardisation" given the situation the mobile market is in today just don't really apply IMO.  

post #44 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

They're not, though.

 

Since you've obviously used a USB port at least once before in your life, I can't see how you can say this with a straight face.

Beat me to it.

post #45 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

I think what you're forgetting (and what a lot of people are forgetting), is that this plug is for iOS devices not PC's.  iOS devices and Android devices are a new platform that is more or less separate from regular PCs in the same way as the original PC's were a platform independent of, and separate from the mainframes and other computers that preceded them.  Apple has between 80% and 98% of this market sewn up with iOS.

 

This means that Apple making it's own "proprietary" connector for these devices is quite a different thing from them making a proprietary connector for their laptops or desktops.  This is no different from IBM's proprietary connectors in the early desktop market in that sense and really isn't the big deal everyone is making out.  Sure, technically it's proprietary, but in another way it's the new standard as well.  If the market was divided 50-50 between Android and iOS there might be an argument for standard connectors, although with different OS's it's hard to see a need even then.  

 

Most of the arguments for "standardisation" given the situation the mobile market is in today just don't really apply IMO.  


Except that every other manufacturer of cell phones has adopted the MicroUSB standard to comply with very sensible EU requirements.  Every manufacturer - smart phone, tablet, eReader - everyone EXCEPT Apple. But somehow, Apple has magic data that can't be transmitted in standard cables.

The whole point was to avoid all the silliness and waste that proprietary cables caused in the early PC and cell phone markets. The logic and the law of the USB standard has nothing to do with market domination.

The now obsolete 30 pin Apple connector is a prime example of exactly the kind of waste and market confusion the EU standard was set up to avoid.  New Apple compatible products will now need two dock connectors to cover the market. OR adapters. 3 if they want to be compatible with Android devices. And now I need additional cables and adapters if I want to travel with my Apple products. What about business users who may have a mix of old & new Apple devices plus a blackberry, Android, or other USB device?
 

post #46 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post

 

 

 

 

 

So USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 can connect every other kind of device in the world EXCEPT Apple products?  Why? Does Apple use some secret faster-than-light subspace transmission mode that requires their connectors to think differently? Need more pins than USB 2.0? Guess what - USB 3.0 has more pins.

Everything coming out or going into the iPortables is either digital data or analog audio . None of which requires an exotic non-standard connector.

 

Why does it matter? Because when Apple abandons it non-standard connectors (ex 30 pin) it orphans a boatload of devices and cables made for that standard. And it means that you cannot use the same charging and sync cable that your sue for all your other devices - leading to more consumer confusion, needless duplication, and e-waste. This is why the EU has made micro USB the required standard connector for all phones.

I think Dock Connector and FireWire were both supported pretty well by the industry. This won't be any different.

post #47 of 109
Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post
So USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 can connect every other kind of device in the world EXCEPT Apple products?  Why?

 

Maybe you've forgotten what the other end of the Dock Connector cable looks like.

 

…it orphans a boatload of devices and cables made for that standard.

 

Simultaneously ensuring that every. single. device. that works with iDevices is MADE to work with iDevices. Use a standard port and people suddenly think they can plug in their 2.5" external hard drive, spinning fan with a bendy neck, or humping dog.

 

And it means that you cannot use the same charging and sync cable that your sue for all your other devices - leading to more consumer confusion, needless duplication, and e-waste.

 

What other devices? That's the point of what Apple makes.

 

And if the EU wanted to do something important, they'd fix their economy they'd standardize connectivity for cameras and camcorders, charging for those devices, or they'd work to stop theft of personal information (though I get that doesn't register with them very much since governments do it to excess) by companies.


Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post
The whole point was to avoid all the silliness and waste that proprietary cables caused in the early PC and cell phone markets. The logic and the law of the USB standard has nothing to do with market domination.

 

But USB's obsolescence does.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #48 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post


Except that every other manufacturer of cell phones has adopted the MicroUSB standard to comply with very sensible EU requirements.  Every manufacturer - smart phone, tablet, eReader - everyone EXCEPT Apple. But somehow, Apple has magic data that can't be transmitted in standard cables.

The whole point was to avoid all the silliness and waste that proprietary cables caused in the early PC and cell phone markets. The logic and the law of the USB standard has nothing to do with market domination.

The now obsolete 30 pin Apple connector is a prime example of exactly the kind of waste and market confusion the EU standard was set up to avoid.  New Apple compatible products will now need two dock connectors to cover the market. OR adapters. 3 if they want to be compatible with Android devices. And now I need additional cables and adapters if I want to travel with my Apple products. What about business users who may have a mix of old & new Apple devices plus a blackberry, Android, or other USB device?
 

Oh, you're a sperglord, my bad.

 

Carry on.

post #49 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Maybe you've forgotten what the other end of the Dock Connector cable looks like.

 

 

Simultaneously ensuring that every. single. device. that works with iDevices is MADE to work with iDevices. Use a standard port and people suddenly think they can plug in their 2.5" external hard drive, spinning fan with a bendy neck, or humping dog.

 

 

What other devices? That's the point of what Apple makes.

 

And if the EU wanted to do something important, they'd fix their economy they'd standardize connectivity for cameras and camcorders, charging for those devices, or they'd work to stop theft of personal information (though I get that doesn't register with them very much since governments do it to excess) by companies.

 

 

But USB's obsolescence does.

I honestly don't think he is worth that much effort, but good post.

post #50 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yea I don't know what the big deal is with having the plug reversible. Almost no connector has ever been reversible aside from a 1930s era lamp cord.

A lot of electrical plugs are symmetrical (thanks to AC for that). Here is the non-grounded Europlug which works is almost all European countries:

400

 

And here is the symmetrical grounded version "Schuko" which works in almost as many European countries:

700

 

And of course, MagSafe is also symmetrical as are all circular audio and video plugs.

post #51 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Are there any examples of reversible port interfaces for data cables?

Just the Ethernet mentioned above where now days switches and routers auto detect crossover or straight through cables but that isn't physically reversed just the pin outs.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #52 of 109
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post
400

 

As an American, European plugs are terrifying to look at, as well as use. I dunno about that continental Europe plug. It's just creepy. I used the British Isles' plug when I was in Ireland, and my stars, I thought I was going to get electrocuted every time I plugged something in…

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #53 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post

 

 
I'd go further and suggest it may be no more than a reversible USB 2.0 connection - what we see as 16 pins could be in reality eight pins, with each pin showing on both faces.
 
The 8 pins themselves could be carrying only four pairs of signals, each pair consisting of the same signal on the left hand side and right hand side, that way it doesn't matter which way the connector is plugged into the port, just like on the MagSafe.
 
I believe this is the nature of the connector, after all the current 30 pin connector leads into the 4 pins of a USB plug.
 
Those other 26 pins are either legacy ports no longer used or possibly direct audio in and out signals utilised by docks and accessories.
 
Plugin USB audio adapters can be purchased for one or two British pounds on eBay so it won't be expensive for audio dock manufacturers to incorporate the necessary circuitry into future docks, if they don't do so already.
 
 

Yes, the dock connector has analogue and digital audio out pins (plus I think some video pins) and naturally the FW pins.

post #54 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Good points. The circular plugs are usually only two elements though, aside from stereo audio jacks, but even those exhibit the problem with multi-pinned circular jack plugs. As you insert or unplug them the power for one element can touch another pin which can cause nasty problems (think unplugging a 1/4" headphone jack while powered up, ouch!).

Yup. I imagine one could construct a multi-ring connector where each ring is progressively shorter/longer than the next (or at least protective-earth would be longer than the others), but it might be too expensive to make the connectors.
Quote:
The usual configuration of plugs that are not reversible is that there is some visual indication of how they are to be oriented. In the case of the 30 pin dock you have to look for the quite tiny icon and insert it with that pointing up in relation to the screen, subtle but easy enough for those not visually impaired. In the case of USB (as in the above picture) there are two visual indications that you just need to learn to look for.

Theoretically, yes. Ideally, all USB cabling would have the USB relief on the "up" side (notwithstanding the issues with vertical USB sockets), so that it would be easy to orient by feeling, but as I you note Apple only prints the logo and, for example, Western Digital has its company logo in relief on the other side and on some cables—such as the one I got with my My Book Elements—on the side where the trident should be (although the one I got with my newest MyBook Studio has the trident on the correct side, and it's white-very nice!).
Quote:
Also thanks for the reminder about the Europlug and the Schuko although the later I believe does use an offset optional ground, but in both cases those plugs should not be considered modern or safe by any definition so they fall within my original class along with the 1930s lamp cords.

Well, the standard/original configuration has two earth "springs" on either side. Most actual plugs are dual purpose and accept the original earth configuration and the French one where the receptacle has an offset earth pin. And I agree that neither is especially modern; I do find it fascinating, however, the room for usability/safety design there is in such an everyday item as the power plug.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Are there any examples of reversible port interfaces for data cables?

Well, that depends. Does the iPod shuffle data cable count? 1tongue.gif Obviously there are a few cables for fibre-optic signalling that don't really care (the most common is probably mini-TOSLINK), and coax Ethernet. All/most of these are rotationally symmetric though (possibly excepting locking mechanisms, if any exist).
Edited by Zandros - 8/10/12 at 2:57pm
post #55 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

A lot of electrical plugs are symmetrical (thanks to AC for that). Here is the non-grounded Europlug which works is almost all European countries:

400

 

The Europlug design appeared first in 1963 but it looks like it could be an early 1900s design. The round connector is just illogical because it is much more difficult to create a solid connection between the male and female receptacle which is why these days in any high power condition they always use blade design to achieve greater surface contact.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #56 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

As an American, European plugs are terrifying to look at, as well as use. I dunno about that continental Europe plug. It's just creepy. I used the British Isles' plug when I was in Ireland, and my stars, I thought I was going to get electrocuted every time I plugged something in…

 

How? The British power plug is the safest (electrically) design you can get. It's solid, it is fused, and the mechanism connects ground before live and neutral. The plug is solid enough that you can't tug it out of the socket, and the socket itself has barriers to prevent insertion of non-plugs (e.g., forks) into the socket.

 

Not so pleasant at night if you walk on the plug though.

post #57 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCC View Post

Why didn't they use MagSafe technology? That would have been awesome without having to push and pull. Just have it snap into place. If Steve were alive, that's what he would have asked the engineers to do.

 

 

Glad you could channel Steve's wishes for us.

post #58 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by GadgetCanada View Post

Could you imagine if Tim quadruppled down on security? I would probably have an iPhone (6th generation) in my hand right now

 

As Apple gets bigger, this is inevitable. There's only so much they can do to prevent any potential leaks from suppliers. From here on out we can forget about never seeing any aspect of a device until its officially revealed. Those days are over, especially when every launch will sell in the tens of millions and they need to get a shitload manufactured and stockpiled ahead of time. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCC View Post

Why didn't they use MagSafe technology? That would have been awesome without having to push and pull. Just have it snap into place. If Steve were alive, that's what he would have asked the engineers to do.

 

 

The 'If Steve was alive' shit is getting beyond ridiculous, I find it disgusting and despicable, to try and shove words into his mouth while being utterly ignorant of the context of how this was desinged. And no, he wouldn't have, because a magsafe would not work on such a light device. If you gave it 5 seconds of thought before suggesting that you would have also realized it. The magnets would have to be INSANELY weak so as to disconnect without pulling the device, and having magnets that weak would create a whole host of issues, including inadvertant disconnection. It only works with laptops because the weight threshhold is there. Also, did you maybe stop to think that the current magsafe is power ONLY. This cable will be transmitting data/syncing, etc. Do you really think its such a great idea to have it so easily disconnect while transferring data? Do you not realize all the potential problems it would cause? Do you still know for a fact this is what Steve would have asked the engineers to do? The guy liked to push the limits, but he was also practical, and this would be in no way, shape, or form practical. Stop putting words into a dead guy's mouth. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

They're not, though.

 

Since you've obviously used a USB port at least once before in your life, I can't see how you can say this with a straight face.

 

And there you go again TS, replying in a sarcastic, condascending way to someone who just happens to be right, while you're wrong. USB ports/connectors are reversible since when? Not a single one I've ever used. He is absolutely right in what he's saying, and you're wrong.  No need for your sarcasm. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

This can't be the final design. Doubt this is real. Apple would never create an insertable tab connector like that. There's nothing elegant about it. Unless this is a post Steve decision. Way too easy to break off. Now perhaps if this were intended to be housed inside some kind of shell al la USB, et al ... But take a look at any Apple product, aside from standard audio connectors there is nothing like this ... This has PC written all over it ...

 

I assumed this was a parody post from the 1st line, then realized maybe it wasn't. You came to all these incredible conclusions after looking at the device for 5 seconds? Do you think Apple's design/engineering team are utterly incompetent, and they havent thought through a whole host of issues while making this? The probably started shortly after the iPhone 4 launch, so more than 2 years, and some extremely skilled, intelligent, and motivated people have spent thousands of hours considering/building a shit ton of options. Why not give them at least the benefit of the doubt, and wait until the full product is shown? But clearly, you know better, a random messageboard poster,  after seeing a photo of what may or may not be the connector on the internet, and knowing absolutely nothing about it. I sometimes wonder how some of you function in the real world, with the kind of conclusions you make based on zero background info, and the utter lack of humility you exhibit with your matter of fact 'this is shit' pronouncements, based on, again, absolutely nothing. Well done. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post


Seriously? The dock connector is very robust. It's a structurally engineered ridgid metal enclosure, the pins are inside. It slips pretty tightly into a port with guides to align the tab that inserts, fairly shallowly I might add, into the slot.
This has been an Intuitive design pattern all the way back to the Apple II.
Ever notice how PC connectors have the male pins on the device, the female on the cable, so when a cable is inevitably pulled out or the incorrect plug jammed into the port, the pins on the device are broken off requiring a major repair, instead of the apple way where the pins are broken on the cable side, requiring only a new cable?
They aren't going to change that philosophy. This is not about selling a product with or without cameras ...

 

So they should keep the current connector forever, a connector launched in 2003 where the tech landscape/requirement bore absolutely no resemblance to what it is now. I wonder where Apple would be if they followed your 'philosophy' of never moving things forward. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut View Post

 

The next time my girlfriend grabs her iPhone and starts to run off while it's still plugged in, can I call you and have you explain how Magsafe would be pointless to her?

 

This one is too easy. The only products in existence today that have a magsafe connector are Apple's laptops. What does your girlfriend do when she has to use, oh I dont know, every other thing in existence that relies on a power cable? If your girlfriend consistently 'runs off' with things that are plugged in, I think there's bigger issues than the connector itself. Strange how I've never once managed to do that after 4 years of owning an iPhone (or any phone) and plugging/unplugging it at least 2-3 times a day. A more logical solution is for you to explain to her that she can perhaps take half a second to determine if the phone is plugged in or not before grabbing and running off with it. Magsafe on a phone would have a ton of issues and would be impractical, just check the beginning of my post. Because your gf does something extremely rare/strange, does not mean Apple should implement a solution that would cause a whole host of other problems. 

 

Whew. Sorry, had to get some of that our of my system. SOme of the responses here blow my mind. If I had a nickel for everytime Apple became even more massively successful after people like you guys on exclaimed they were doing it all wrong, based on limited imagination and limited (or non-existent) understand of the product...


Edited by Slurpy - 8/10/12 at 3:39pm
post #59 of 109
Originally Posted by Hattig View Post
How? The British power plug is the safest (electrically) design you can get. It's solid, it is fused, and the mechanism connects ground before live and neutral. The plug is solid enough that you can't tug it out of the socket, and the socket itself has barriers to prevent insertion of non-plugs (e.g., forks) into the socket.

 

I was thinking primarily the visible and audible arc of blue electricity that appears when you have a plug halfway in.

 

Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post
And there you go again TS, replying in a sarcastic, condascending way to someone who just happens to be right, while you're wrong. USB ports/connectors are reversible since when? Not a single one I've ever used. He is absolutely right in what he's saying, and you're wrong.  No need for your sarcasm. 

 

Nope. Please read both posts again.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #60 of 109

It is a 9 pin connector according to ifixit.com. The metal collar is the grounding pin.

 
 
post #61 of 109

I accidentally knocked my iPod touch off a desk while it was attached to a Mac mini. The cable prevented it from hitting the floor, but ever since that day the Home button has been a bit flakey, sometimes requiring multiple presses to finally register.

 

So I'm left wondering whether a cord that detaches easily is better or worse.

post #62 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hattig View Post

 

How? The British power plug is the safest (electrically) design you can get. It's solid, it is fused, and the mechanism connects ground before live and neutral. The plug is solid enough that you can't tug it out of the socket, and the socket itself has barriers to prevent insertion of non-plugs (e.g., forks) into the socket.

 

Not so pleasant at night if you walk on the plug though.

The Schuko plug also connects ground before live and neutral, it is also quite solid but certainly cannot beat the UK plug when it comes to pure size.

post #63 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

I accidentally knocked my iPod touch off a desk while it was attached to a Mac mini. The cable prevented it from hitting the floor, but ever since that day the Home button has been a bit flakey, sometimes requiring multiple presses to finally register.

 

So I'm left wondering whether a cord that detaches easily is better or worse.


I have dropped my iPhone 4 quite a couple of times, almost always its fall was much slowed down by the headphone cable. So far it has not suffered much but I am on my third set of headphones (not only because of its double duty as fall shock absorber, I also often catch something with my headphones which usually yanks them out of my ears).

post #64 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post


Except that every other manufacturer of cell phones has adopted the MicroUSB standard to comply with very sensible EU requirements.  Every manufacturer - smart phone, tablet, eReader - everyone EXCEPT Apple. But somehow, Apple has magic data that can't be transmitted in standard cables.

The whole point was to avoid all the silliness and waste that proprietary cables caused in the early PC and cell phone markets. The logic and the law of the USB standard has nothing to do with market domination.

The now obsolete 30 pin Apple connector is a prime example of exactly the kind of waste and market confusion the EU standard was set up to avoid.  New Apple compatible products will now need two dock connectors to cover the market. OR adapters. 3 if they want to be compatible with Android devices. And now I need additional cables and adapters if I want to travel with my Apple products. What about business users who may have a mix of old & new Apple devices plus a blackberry, Android, or other USB device?
 

Ahh, young grasshopper, you do not know yet why you want this connector. All will be revealed to you in only one more cycle of the moon. Be patient. Eat your rice. Go wash your bowl.

"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #65 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post


Except that every other manufacturer of cell phones has adopted the MicroUSB standard to comply with very sensible EU requirements.  Every manufacturer - smart phone, tablet, eReader - everyone EXCEPT Apple. But somehow, Apple has magic data that can't be transmitted in standard cables.


The whole point was to avoid all the silliness and waste that proprietary cables caused in the early PC and cell phone markets. The logic and the law of the USB standard has nothing to do with market domination.


The now obsolete 30 pin Apple connector is a prime example of exactly the kind of waste and market confusion the EU standard was set up to avoid.  New Apple compatible products will now need two dock connectors to cover the market. OR adapters. 3 if they want to be compatible with Android devices. And now I need additional cables and adapters if I want to travel with my Apple products. What about business users who may have a mix of old & new Apple devices plus a blackberry, Android, or other USB device?
 

Sometimes I marvel at how much wronginess one poster can make in a single post. I'd like to think you are were given bad information but some of the crap you've written just show an anti-Apple bias that seems very unlikely to have come from anywhere else but your own mind.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #66 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Sometimes I marvel at how much wronginess one poster can make in a single post. I'd like to think you are were given bad information but some of the crap you've written just show an anti-Apple bias that seems very unlikely to have come from anywhere else but your own mind.

Well I'm open to factual correction, by you or anyone else.Tell me what's not true. (if you feel like it - I understand if you don't think it is worth your time)

 

[BTW, If you take exception to the phrase "the logic and the law of the USB standard", I can see where that is poorly worded and incomplete. I was referring specifically to the EU trade laws that require all "hand held" phone, smartphone & comm devices sold in the EU use mircoUSB as the charging port on the device side. The logic of the that law has nothing to do with market share - they were trying to bring order to a market for the benefit of consumers, and they were successful. I was not talking about the USB standard itself being any kind of law - it obviously is not.]

 

But my question is: Why is it a bad thing to ask Apple to use a standard data/power connector. If it works for thousands of other devices of equal complexity, why not Apple?

post #67 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

Ahh, young grasshopper, you do not know yet why you want this connector. All will be revealed to you in only one more cycle of the moon. Be patient. Eat your rice. Go wash your bowl.

Fill it with water... then pretend to design your own phone...

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

Reply
post #68 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post

If it works for thousands of other devices of equal complexity, why not Apple?

The whole basis of your post is wrong because you 1) don't think the current 30-pin connector uses USB, 2) think the EU was trying to cut down on cables not power supplies (which Apple's have had USB-A connectors in since not to long after iTunes works on Windows), 3) think the USB port interface is some magical standard despite the many variations of the interface, 4) claim that it offers nothing else that USB offers, 5) and think no other vendor has different port connectors on their handsets other than MicroUSB.

Bonus: 6) Apple's been using the same — THE SAME! — 30-pin connector interface for nearly a decade and using a universal wall charger that will charge any device that, at would connect to FW (for reasons of USB 2.0 not being available) and later to USB and yet you are here pooh-poohing it while completely ignoring how the world has fallen behind Apple's initiative to use interchangeable power adapters when before it would come attached to the cable with some vendor specific power plug. You can still walk into stores and see a stand full of phone power adapters all in molded plastic casings listing the various models and vendors they will work with.

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post #69 of 109

30 pins > 9 pins

 

If all digital media I/O is going to be handled by AirPlay, and Firewire has been dropped, then what's left? What do those 9 pins need to do?

 

Power, USB.x, analog audio out and control signals? Nothing to do with video?

 

Is that it, and would 9 pins be adequate?

 

If so, that's a pretty cool evolutionary step. I haven't used AirPlay yet. Is it that fast and reliable? I assume it supports streaming full 1080p video with surround audio, etc?

 

 

All that, from a phone. It still amazes me.

 

 

Beam me up, Scotty.

post #70 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post

But my question is: Why is it a bad thing to ask Apple to use a standard data/power connector. If it works for thousands of other devices of equal complexity, why not Apple?

In all of your comments... you seem to forget that Apple's Dock Connector is for more than just charging... it's a platform.

When Apple introduced the Dock Connector in 2003... it ushered in a new generation of accessories for Apple devices. Alarm clocks, boomboxes, digital audio interfaces, video output, etc. Considering the abundance of accessories available and the demand for such accessories... I'd say it worked.

MicroUSB didn't even EXIST in 2003. Even if it did... it still couldn't do all the stuff that Apple's Dock Connector could do.

So I'm glad Apple went down that route.
post #71 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post

Would a micro or mini USB been so hard?  Why do we need yet ANOTHER non standard data connector that does exactly what all the other STANDARD connectors do?
 

 

Yes. Yes it would.

 

Please read: http://www.tuaw.com/2012/06/26/the-whys-and-wherefores-of-a-shrunken-dock-connector/ for details, but basically USB alone is not enough to do all the things they'd want a Dock port to do.

 

"Why might Apple want to avoid micro-USB? Because charge and sync is about all micro-USB can do, on the face of it; the accessory support, line-level audio out, and video out features the current-day Dock connector sports aren't possible down a four-wire connector."

post #72 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCC View Post

Why didn't they use MagSafe technology? That would have been awesome without having to push and pull. Just have it snap into place. If Steve were alive, that's what he would have asked the engineers to do.

 

 

This phone has probably been in development for 2 to 3 years. The 7th generation iphone is probably in mid development now and a team has probably being assembled to start on the 8th. Most people don't realize how long and tedious this process is when paving your own way.

 

Steve was surely alive when this connector was developed, along with a bunch of other competing design variations that he/they could then choose from, followed perhaps by some testing and fine tuning of the design. Of course, Samsung will then take about 2 weeks to copy it and stuff it in their next phone, claiming that Apple didn't invent the rectangular plug with rounded edges.

 

I would like to see a reversible plug that would make use of contacts on both sides for a total of 17 potential pathways. I would also like to see it snap into place magnetically, although I don't think that would qualify for a MagSafe label. It has all to do with a feeling of quality, ease of plugging in and keeping the plug snuggly in place while requiring minimal effort to pull it out. It will do little to keep the phone from getting yanked off a table.

 

The length of the connector, along with a seemingly strong metal casing both in the phone and on the connector, will work well for docks.

post #73 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonshf View Post

This phone has probably been in development for 2 to 3 years. The 7th generation iphone is probably in mid development now and a team has probably being assembled to start on the 8th. Most people don't realize how long and tedious this process is when paving your own way.

Steve was surely alive when this connector was developed, along with a bunch of other competing design variations that he/they could then choose from, followed perhaps by some testing and fine tuning of the design. Of course, Samsung will then take about 2 weeks to copy it and stuff it in their next phone, claiming that Apple didn't invent the rectangular plug with rounded edges.

I would like to see a reversible plug that would make use of contacts on both sides for a total of 17 potential pathways. I would also like to see it snap into place magnetically, although I don't think that would qualify for a MagSafe label. It has all to do with a feeling of quality, ease of plugging in and keeping the plug snuggly in place while requiring minimal effort to pull it out. It will do little to keep the phone from getting yanked off a table.

The length of the connector, along with a seemingly strong metal casing both in the phone and on the connector, will work well for docks.

To all of you who don't get it. Steve was alway about pushing his engineers to make what seems impossible at first glance. There are alway trade offs in engineering. The entire antenna gate saga should tell you that he's not above sacrificing some functionality for what's cool or design aesthetics.

As for the excuses that many of you seem to be under the mistaken impression of; that such a small socket wouldn't make a good MagSafe connector. Well, you're wrong. There are some very strong magnets in the marketplace. You can make the connection as strong or as weak as you want. If you want it strong you can put magnets on both the iPhone AND the cable side like they did with the iPad cover which would make the connection much stronger than just on the cable side. You can also vary the size of the magnet to increase or decrease the strength of the connection to the application in addition to the type of magnets used. So, yea, it's completely feasible to make the connector MagSafe.

What we do know is that the engineers at Apple are trying to make all of the components smaller so as to squeeze evey available space out the the devices. The recent adoption of the nano SIM speaks to this. That means that one of the goals of a new connector is to make it as shallow as possible so that it doesn't need to be inserted as deeply into the devices as previous connectos. The only way that can be done is with a MagSafe like connector because the strength of the connection is determined not by the depth or some mechanical arrangement but by the strength of the magnetic attraction.

This also fits in with two other criteria of Apple's MO. It would be consistent with using something they invented for other larger products and that it's "cool".

There can only be two reasons as to why this wasn't done while Steve was alive. One, cost. It may have been too expensive to create a MagSafe connector so small and would fit all of their i devices. Second, it maybe that the Engineers found that such a small MagSafe connector isn't very reliable. That it fails much sooner than a plain mechanical connector. Both are things that may be overcome with time. They may have overcome these two hurdles.

One of the telling signs that Apple is going for a new connector soon is that they're about to refresh all of their i devices next month, with the exception of the iPad. Usually they announce iPhones and iPod's during different times of the year. It's not a coincidence that this year they will do that all at the same time. It's mainly to coordinate the replacement of the connector so that all of their i devices are on the same system.
Edited by JCC - 8/11/12 at 9:49am
post #74 of 109
Originally Posted by JCC View Post
As for the excuses that many of you seem to be under the mistaken impression of; that such a small socket wouldn't make a good MagSafe connector. Well, you're wrong. There are some very strong magnets in the marketplace.

 

And that's exactly the opposite of what such a connector should have. These devices aren't multiple pounds. You don't want a magnet anywhere near as strong as on MagSafe or MagSafe 2. Single-spec hopefuls should really just drop their belief until launch so they're not disappointed. I mean, they'll still be disappointed, but at least they won't whine about something that was never going to happen in the first place after the product is released. 


So, yea, it's completely feasible to make the connector MagSafe.

 

And also completely self-defeating. If the magnet is strong, there's no difference from a regular cable. If the magnet is weak, there's no point to having it. And when the connector is this small and this shallow, it's really not even needed. 

 

That means that one of the goals of a new connector is to make it as shallow as possible so that it doesn't need to be inserted as deeply into the devices as previous connectos. The only way that can be done is with a MagSafe like connector because the strength of the connection is determined not by the depth or some mechanical arrangement but by the strength of the magnetic attraction.

 

We could be wrong, but I doubt it. I imagine that the first thing done to those leaked parts was running a magnet over them. And if they'd reacted in any way, we'd know about it right now.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already f*ed.

 

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post #75 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

And that's exactly the opposite of what such a connector should have. These devices aren't multiple pounds. You don't want a magnet anywhere near as strong as on MagSafe or MagSafe 2. Single-spec hopefuls should really just drop their belief until launch so they're not disappointed. I mean, they'll still be disappointed, but at least they won't whine about something that was never going to happen in the first place after the product is released. 

And also completely self-defeating. If the magnet is strong, there's no difference from a regular cable. If the magnet is weak, there's no point to having it. And when the connector is this small and this shallow, it's really not even needed. 


We could be wrong, but I doubt it. I imagine that the first thing done to those leaked parts was running a magnet over them. And if they'd reacted in any way, we'd know about it right now.

If those leaked photos ARE the final connectors I can guarantee that they're NOT MagSafe as they're too deep to be such a connection. A deep connector means that they're going with a mechanical solution and not MagSafe. It could be that they didn't need a shallow connector as that's one of the reasons they relocated the headphone jack to the bottom of the phone so there's space for the new deep mechanical connector as well.

What this also means is that going forward, all of their small i devices will have their headphone jacks on the same side as their power connector.
Edited by JCC - 8/11/12 at 9:59am
post #76 of 109

As reported in the update, it states the design utilizes 16 pins (+ ground presumably). What is yet to be identified is if it is reversible (orientation independent, etc). If it is, then that means that there is hardware/software that can reverse the pin outs by sensing the orientation of the connector which although not the first example of this technology, (ethernet crossover/straight through detection in routers) at least somewhat revolutionary in the sync/charge phone implementation in that the physical connector has no upside down, which is quite unique to my knowledge. 

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post #77 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

As reported in the update, it states the design utilizes 16 pins (+ ground presumably). What is yet to be identified is if it is reversible (orientation independent, etc). If it is, then that means that there is hardware/software that can reverse the pin outs by sensing the orientation of the connector which although not the first example of this technology, (ethernet crossover/straight through detection in routers) at least somewhat revolutionary in the sync/charge phone implementation in that the physical connector has no upside down, which is quite unique to my knowledge. 

No necessarily. It could be that the 8 wires split to have twice the connectors each crossing over so that no matter who you place it it's still going to match up. That would mean the device (not the cable) would only need to have connector plates for the 8 pins+plus the ground.

Whether it's 8,9, 16 or 17 pins that seems very low. I wonder a couple things.

First of all, could they be using the local host TB controller on the device and have it send/receive USB over that connector so that it's transparent if you were to use a USB cable (which is what I'd think it will come with by default no matter what). If they are changing up the connector I'd xpect them to plan ahead, like they did with the decade old 30-pin connector. Even if a TB controller isn't possible today I would expect them to plan for it being a possibility.

Secondly, nine pins does make sense as USB 3.0 is typically 9 pins. However there are all the other functions of the iDevice port interface that would be lost if those were dedicated to USB. Even at 16 or 17 pins it would still be too few with no room for growth. That makes me think that Apple could be using intelligent in the HW that will switch to the right output as needed. The problem with this is that it can be expensive, more finicky, use more power, and take up more room inside the device. That said, if anyone can make this work and be viable its Apple who can easily invest the time and money without any real long term costs as it's spread across dozens of millions of iPhones, iPads, and iPods per year.

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post #78 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

Can't wait for Sammy to copy that with the AppleUSB port.

 

Why don't they just use a standard friggen connector? Didn't they come to some agreement with the EU that said they'd use the same microusb port all the other phones do so they could cut down on waste? WTF?

Groupthink is bad, mkay. Think Different is the motto.
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post #79 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post

 

 

 

 

 

So USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 can connect every other kind of device in the world EXCEPT Apple products?  Why? Does Apple use some secret faster-than-light subspace transmission mode that requires their connectors to think differently? Need more pins than USB 2.0? Guess what - USB 3.0 has more pins.

Everything coming out or going into the iPortables is either digital data or analog audio . None of which requires an exotic non-standard connector.

 

Why does it matter? Because when Apple abandons it non-standard connectors (ex 30 pin) it orphans a boatload of devices and cables made for that standard. And it means that you cannot use the same charging and sync cable that your sue for all your other devices - leading to more consumer confusion, needless duplication, and e-waste. This is why the EU has made micro USB the required standard connector for all phones.

 

 

^-- this

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post #80 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post

Why don't they just use a standard friggen connector? Didn't they come to some agreement with the EU that said they'd use the same microusb port all the other phones do so they could cut down on waste? WTF?

The waste was to reduce all those non-interchangable power adapters. Guess which company has use a USB-A port in the power adapters across PMPs, handsets and tablets for nearly a decade?

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