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First rumored photos of new Dock Connector plug for iPhone 5 show 8 pins [u] - Page 3

post #81 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Most of the arguments for "standardisation" given the situation the mobile market is in today just don't really apply IMO.  

 

your opinion is garbage

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post #82 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


The waste was to reduce all those non-interchangable power adapters. Guess which company has use a USB-A port in the power adapters across PMPs, handsets and tablets for nearly a decade?

 

So, i can use the cord for the new iphone for my other electronics? SWEET! No? Then I guess this is a pointless endeavor on Apple's part. Is microusb not smaller than this already? PRETTY SURE it's either smaller or the same size. 

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post #83 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post

So, i can use the cord for the new iphone for my other electronics? SWEET! No? Then I guess this is a pointless endeavor on Apple's part. Is microusb not smaller than this already? PRETTY SURE it's either smaller or the same size. 

Yes, you can. The EU requires it for handsets, that's why the next iPhone's power adapter, an electronic, will have a standard plug that any vendor can use with whatever cable has USB-A, most likely.


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post #84 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanVoyeur View Post


Except that every other manufacturer of cell phones has adopted the MicroUSB standard to comply with very sensible EU requirements.  Every manufacturer - smart phone, tablet, eReader - everyone EXCEPT Apple. But somehow, Apple has magic data that can't be transmitted in standard cables.

The whole point was to avoid all the silliness and waste that proprietary cables caused in the early PC and cell phone markets. The logic and the law of the USB standard has nothing to do with market domination.

The now obsolete 30 pin Apple connector is a prime example of exactly the kind of waste and market confusion the EU standard was set up to avoid.  New Apple compatible products will now need two dock connectors to cover the market. OR adapters. 3 if they want to be compatible with Android devices. And now I need additional cables and adapters if I want to travel with my Apple products. What about business users who may have a mix of old & new Apple devices plus a blackberry, Android, or other USB device?
 

^-- this too

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post #85 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Yes, you can. The EU requires it for handsets, that's why the next iPhone's power adapter, an electronic, will have a standard plug that any vendor can use with whatever cable has USB-A, most likely.
1000

 

 

Does that look like a cord to you?

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post #86 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rory Sinclair View Post

 

Yes. Yes it would.

 

Please read: http://www.tuaw.com/2012/06/26/the-whys-and-wherefores-of-a-shrunken-dock-connector/ for details, but basically USB alone is not enough to do all the things they'd want a Dock port to do.

 

"Why might Apple want to avoid micro-USB? Because charge and sync is about all micro-USB can do, on the face of it; the accessory support, line-level audio out, and video out features the current-day Dock connector sports aren't possible down a four-wire connector."

 

This is the most sensible reply i've heard yet. Accessory support is pretty important, but I don't see any shortcoming of accessory support for micro/mini USB devices. Seems google even used the port initially to power their first phones headphones. Admittedly, I don't know enough about plugs and ports and accessory needs, but MY point is that if they're doing a redo of the dock connector, and there werent limits that couldnt be circumvented while using USB standard ports, it would be dumb to just invent a new dock connector just to say you had a new one.

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post #87 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post


Does that look like a cord to you?

1) Your assertion is a bald face lie. MoU titled the initiative Common External Power Supply for a reason. Unfortunately you can't understand how a cord and a power supply are, and have no ability for critical thinking that you can't see that Apple splitting the PA from the cable for a decade in all their iDevices is Apple being far, far ahead of the curve.

2) You've failed to understand that Apple ha complied with the WU regulation with their Micro-USB-to-iPod-Dock-Connector adapter.

3) You wrote, "So, i can use the cord for the new iphone for my other electronics?" to which I replied that you can use your cord for the next iPhone (or their current PMPs, tablets and handset) in other PAs. The fact that you don't see the PA has have electronics within shows just how ignorant you 1) actually are or 2) how much you are trolling this site with your crap.

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post #88 of 109
Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post
Why don't they just use a standard friggen connector? Didn't they come to some agreement with the EU that said they'd use the same microusb port all the other phones do so they could cut down on waste? WTF?

 

Please go read about why MicroUSB will not work for Dock Connector 2 before you start this false outrage.

 

Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post
^-- this
Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post
^-- this too
 

Nothing you're agreeing with is right.

 

Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post
your opinion is garbage

 

At least it's right.


Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post
Is microusb not smaller than this already? PRETTY SURE it's either smaller or the same size. 

 

Size is meaningless.

 

Originally Posted by jeffreytgilbert View Post
…I don't see any shortcoming of accessory support for micro/mini USB devices.

 

The video and audio downlinks, I guess you're ignoring.

 

 Admittedly, I don't know enough about plugs and ports and accessory needs…
 

There you go! Now go read what MicroUSB and Dock Connector can do and then come back with an informed opinion (and probably apologize to Gazoobee).


…but MY point is that if they're doing a redo of the dock connector, and there weren't limits that couldn't be circumvented while using USB standard ports, it would be dumb to just invent a new dock connector just to say you had a new one.

 

Apple's sure known for doing 'dumb' things without purpose or point.

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post #89 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


1) Your assertion is a bald face lie. MoU titled the initiative Common External Power Supply for a reason. Unfortunately you can't understand how a cord and a power supply are, and have no ability for critical thinking that you can't see that Apple splitting the PA from the cable for a decade in all their iDevices is Apple being far, far ahead of the curve.
2) You've failed to understand that Apple ha complied with the WU regulation with their Micro-USB-to-iPod-Dock-Connector adapter.
3) You wrote, "So, i can use the cord for the new iphone for my other electronics?" to which I replied that you can use your cord for the next iPhone (or their current PMPs, tablets and handset) in other PAs. The fact that you don't see the PA has have electronics within shows just how ignorant you 1) actually are or 2) how much you are trolling this site with your crap.

This is from a thread here on AI in 2009:

 

Quote:

"Given that the Dock Connector has long been Apple's standard on iPods and iPhones, and is now also vital to the iPhone 3.0 third-party accessories strategy, the company is likely to comply with the initiative by including a micro-USB adapter with iPhones sold in Europe."

 

http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/99973/apple-other-phone-makers-agree-on-standard-charger-for-europe

 

It is worth noting I think that the initiative was to take effect January 2012 so this will be the first "smartphone" since the date. The initiative does not include tablets at this time.

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post #90 of 109
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Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post

What is this?
post #91 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

This is from a thread here on AI in 2009:

Quote:
"Given that the Dock Connector has long been Apple's standard on iPods and iPhones, and is now also vital to the iPhone 3.0 third-party accessories strategy, the company is likely to comply with the initiative by including a micro-USB adapter with iPhones sold in Europe."

http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/99973/apple-other-phone-makers-agree-on-standard-charger-for-europe

Nice link but the article looks a little off. They elude to the charger having Micro-USB instead of USB-A, per the standard. It's the power cable that will have Micro-USB or have an adapter for Micro-USB available.

Per section 4.2.1 in the Memoradum of Understanding it sounds like the adapter doesn't have to be included with the device but can simply be available for sale
Quote:
...If a manufacturer makes available an Adaptor from the Micro-USB connector of a Common EPS to a specific non-Micro-USB socket in the Mobile Phone, it shall constitute compliance to this article

To reiterate, the fact that Apple had the foresight to not only use the same design for all their handhelds and to design it for such a long term, but to also make the cable detachable from the EPS with a standard USB-A puts them so far ahead of the curve. It the rest of the industry had followed Apple with the USB-A EPS with detachable cable then this EU mandate would never have been drafted.

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post #92 of 109
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Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

What is this?

OS X Lion Recovery Drive.

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post #93 of 109
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/99973/apple-other-phone-makers-agree-on-standard-charger-for-europe

 

It is worth noting I think that the initiative was to take effect January 2012 so this will be the first "smartphone" since the date. The initiative does not include tablets at this time.

 

http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MD099ZM/A

 

And they've been in compliance for a very long time. No big deal. They'll just release a Dock Connector 2 to MicroUSB adapter.

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post #94 of 109
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Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MD099ZM/A

And they've been in compliance for a very long time. No big deal. They'll just release a Dock Connector 2 to MicroUSB adapter.

We spend so much time dealing with the stupid lies and/or ignorance of people who have to constantly be corrected before a proper discussion can be had that we sometimes don't ever get to discuss the real possibilities for the change. Why does Apple need to change the adapter now? Sure, it's smaller, but why now and not, say, when the iPad came out in 2010 which would have been a perfect time to start the transition without the shock of change.

I'm guessing there is tech that wasn't available then. Perhaps they do have internal electronics in the G6 iPhone that will intelligently push the different kinds of signaling needed for all their accessory types. If they could do that then could they also make it work with Thunderbolt? It could still use USB for data transfer but would have the higher Wattage for power which would make your Mac just as good as the wall adapter for the iPad. I know I'd like to carry one less electronic when on the road.

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post #95 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


1000

I think the bottom line is that 90% of the everyday needs of users can be accommodated with just USB. The specialized functions such as audio line level in/out will need to access more pins.

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post #96 of 109
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Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I think the bottom line is that 90% of the everyday needs of users can be accommodated with just USB. The specialized functions such as audio line level in/out will need to access more pins.

I'm not sure of your position on this matter. Are you saying that Apple should get rid of their dock connector and eschew the rest of the features that have made the iDevice ecosystem so successful?

On the point of audio line level in/out, for example, needing to access more pins if we are only getting 9 pins and it's coming right after USB 3.0 was added to some Macs I have to think that won't be on adapter or in the cable as separate pins. There is that rumour that it will use the headphone jack now that it's on the bottom but that's a kludge in every way as it limits future change of the iPhone and keeps the iPad and iPods out of that scenario. At this point, as complex and costly as it is if this 9-pin system is real then I don't see how they can't have a specialized component that will convert the signal and pins internal to the device before transmitting.

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post #97 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I'm not sure of your position on this matter. Are you saying that Apple should get rid of their dock connector and eschew the rest of the features that have made the iDevice ecosystem so successful?
On the point of audio line level in/out, for example, needing to access more pins if we are only getting 9 pins and it's coming right after USB 3.0 was added to some Macs I have to think that won't be on adapter or in the cable as separate pins. There is that rumour that it will use the headphone jack now that it's on the bottom but that's a kludge in every way as it limits future change of the iPhone and keeps the iPad and iPods out of that scenario. At this point, as complex and costly as it is if this 9-pin system is real then I don't see how they can't have a specialized component that will convert the signal and pins internal to the device before transmitting.

I think it will be 16+ pins auto detect and also that they will provide a Micro-USB adapter for Europe. The third party accessories will convert to this new dock plug. I do wonder if the adapter is provided, will they ship it with the wall charger only as an option in Europe. Obviously you will get the USB->Dock plug cable to connect it to your computer.

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post #98 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I think it will be 16+ pins auto detect and also that they will provide a Micro-USB adapter for Europe. The third party accessories will convert to this new dock plug.

It could be, but 16 (or 17 with external ground) would still be pushing it when you look at what can be removed from the the current 30-pin connector... and that's before you consider USB 3.0 over USB 2.0.

i do think it will be intelligent which does mean that even at 16(17) pins it could still be reversible. There could be a pin used for signaling that will tell the system which pins route where. I think you might be able to do this with just using the DC power connectors. You make their pin outs reversible and it uses that to determine how the plug is placed. Of course, this would all have to be managed within the iDevice itself.
Quote:
I do wonder if the adapter is provided, will they ship it with the wall charger only as an option in Europe. Obviously you will get the USB->Dock plug cable to connect it to your computer.

Why wouldn't it be included? It has (and has had) the USB-A connector per the standard. I'm not sure why people think there is some issue here and why Apple hasn't been conforming when Apple is the company that has been least wasteful and most universal with their EPS.

If they stop shipping the wall charger I would imagine they'd stop shipping it for everywhere else, too, just like they'd done when they've minimized the inclusion of unused adapters in Macs long ago.

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post #99 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


It could be, but 16 (or 17 with external ground) would still be pushing it when you look at what can be removed from the the current 30-pin connector... and that's before you consider USB 3.0 over USB 2.0.
i do think it will be intelligent which does mean that even at 16(17) pins it could still be reversible. There could be a pin used for signaling that will tell the system which pins route where. I think you might be able to do this with just using the DC power connectors. You make their pin outs reversible and it uses that to determine how the plug is placed. Of course, this would all have to be managed within the iDevice itself.

Why wouldn't it be included? It has (and has had) the USB-A connector per the standard. I'm not sure why people think there is some issue here and why Apple hasn't been conforming when Apple is the company that has been least wasteful and most universal with their EPS.

The pin out management could be done on the cable. If you notice the image in the article one of the male plug examples has a chip on the back of it.

 

I was speculating that in order to minimize electronic waste and charger redundancy, if a consumer already had other compatible wall chargers, they could opt out of buying more.

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post #100 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

The pin out management could be done on the cable. If you notice the image in the article one of the male plug examples has a chip on the back of it.

But then you have the issue of all other cables that you'd connect as well as accessories. Wouldn't be simpler and cheaper to just put the chip in the device and not in each and every cable you sell? Cables do get chips for various reasons but I'm talking about the intelligent management of orchestrating which pins do what when various things are connected.
Quote:
I was speculating that in order to minimize electronic waste and charger redundancy, if a consumer already had other compatible wall chargers, they could opt out of buying more.

I think thaat would comes down to marketing because you know the backlash when Apple doesn't include something it just means they are being cheap and nickel and diming the consumer. I'd personally like them to remove that component; I certainly never use mine. Aren't they excluded from iPods and have been for years? I think it's only the iPhone and iPad that have them. Reduce the waste, I say.

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post #101 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


But then you have the issue of all other cables that you'd connect as well as accessories. Wouldn't be simpler and cheaper to just put the chip in the device and not in each and every cable you sell? Cables do get chips for various reasons but I'm talking about the intelligent management of orchestrating which pins do what when various things are connected.

True, however, I was thinking it may be a way to save internal space in the device for more battery. Every little bit helps as we have discussed with the sim tray.

 

With third party accessories such as docks they already know which way the device is plugged in.

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post #102 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 


 

Or this could be just for charging and they expect us to sync wirelessly. Who knows.

 

 

I seriously hope that never happens. think of the poor countries with slow internet connections. Wireless synching is a nightmare there

post #103 of 109
Originally Posted by imbrucewayne View Post
I seriously hope that never happens. think of the poor countries with slow internet connections. Wireless synching is a nightmare there


Syncing would only be over local Wi-Fi networks.

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post #104 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Syncing would only be over local Wi-Fi networks.


my comment stands. ^_^'

 

even the wifi is kinda slow in some areas of the world. :(

post #105 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


Syncing would only be over local Wi-Fi networks.

But not everyone has WiFI. Even 802.11ac — note the iPhone doesn't even have 802.11n 5GHz or multiple spatial streams — would still be slower than the wired connection. It's great as an alternative but to exclude the other is still many years from being a viable option.

Even yesterday I was in a bit of a hurry and decided to plug it in to speed up the sync instead of waiting for the WiFi sync to happen.

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post #106 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rory Sinclair View Post

Yes. Yes it would.

Please read: http://www.tuaw.com/2012/06/26/the-whys-and-wherefores-of-a-shrunken-dock-connector/ for details, but basically USB alone is not enough to do all the things they'd want a Dock port to do.

"Why might Apple want to avoid micro-USB? Because charge and sync is about all micro-USB can do, on the face of it; the accessory support, line-level audio out, and video out features the current-day Dock connector sports aren't possible down a four-wire connector."

Well. USB can't handle video as such, but there are (pre)standards for getting video out through the micro-USB connector and some Samsung phones has it implemented.

Edit: Apparently noted in the article, but dismissed as clumsy because of some manufacturer-specific implementation reasons.
Edited by Zandros - 8/12/12 at 2:54pm
post #107 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zandros View Post

Well. USB can't handle video as such, but there are (pre)standards for getting video out through the micro-USB connector and some Samsung phones has it implemented.
Edit: Apparently noted in the article, but dismissed as clumsy because of some manufacturer-specific implementation reasons.

But you still have the issue of getting, say, HDMI or component video to, say, a TV or projector. I think you still need to have the chip in the cable to convert the signal (which makes each cable more expensive), a chip in the device (which is expensive but only for the device and not each cable setup), or use multiple pins (so the device and cable are less technically complex).

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post #108 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zandros View Post


Well. USB can't handle video as such, but there are (pre)standards for getting video out through the micro-USB connector and some Samsung phones has it implemented.
Edit: Apparently noted in the article, but dismissed as clumsy because of some manufacturer-specific implementation reasons.

 

Right.  Doesn't really sound like a ready-to-go solution, does it?

post #109 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I can't tell from those images whether it is keyed (enabling 16 pins) or simply reversable (8 pins)

 

There appears to be a transceiver chip attached to the connector.  So it may well be a non-keyed reversible connector.  The chip may be able to detect the orientation (coordinating with something in the device, possibly) and swap the signals around.  There's no technical reason why they couldn't do that, but if the chip costs too much, it may adversely affect the price of dock cables/adapters.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

Ever notice how PC connectors have the male pins on the device, the female on the cable, so when a cable is inevitably pulled out or the incorrect plug jammed into the port, the pins on the device are broken off requiring a major repair...

 

Not really.  PCs have used both configurations for various kinds of connections and most are female on the device, using male cables:

 

  • CGA/EGA/VGA video - male cable, female on PC
  • DVI video - male cable, female on PC
  • Serial ports (9- and 25-pin) - female cable, male on PC
  • Parallel port (25-pin) - male cable, female on PC
  • Keyboard (old style and PS/2 style) and PS/2 mouse - male cable, female on PC
  • Game controller - male cable, female on PC
  • SCSI (not counting adapters using Centronics connectors) - male cable, female on PC

 

Of course, this doesn't count connectors that don't use the "traditional" concept of pins, like Ethernet, USB, FireWire, DisplayPort, HDMI, etc.

 

Internal connectors using ribbon cables usually have pins on the motherboard, but that's a completely different situation.  Those cables aren't normally inserted and removed very often.  They're typically not touched at all after the system is fully assembled.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe View Post

I assume you have actual proof of this, please provide. Also what's something that this 9-pin connector will do that a micro port can't?

 

The big feature of a Dock connector that USB doesn't support is analog audio in/out.  This isn't used when the device is using a USB cable (for syncing/charging) of course, but it is used by all kinds of standalone docks, including those built-in to speaker systems and clock-radios.  It is also used by many automotive connection kits including FM transmitters.  A dock connector can supply power to external devices (used by the camera connector, for instance.)  Finally, there are sense pins that let the device auto-detect certain classes of accessories and to auto-switch audio from the headphone jack to the dock connector

 

To support current functionality, the dock connector should have:

 

  • USB data, power and ground (4 pins)
  • Stereo audio in (4 pins)
  • Stereo audio out (4 pins)
  • Power out (2 pins)
  • Sense pins (2 pins)

 

Hmmm...  16 pins.  My guess is that this is exactly what we're seeing in the new connector.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Maybe you've forgotten what the other end of the Dock Connector cable looks like.

 

In what context?  Of course a Dock-USB cable only carries USB.  But docks exist for more devices than just USB/charge cables.  Speaker systems, clock/radios, car connectivity, voice recorders and other devices use more than just USB connectivity.

 

Quote:

But my question is: Why is it a bad thing to ask Apple to use a standard data/power connector. If it works for thousands of other devices of equal complexity, why not Apple?

 

I've got phones that use micro-USB for charging.  And when I want to attach them to an analog audio device, I need to use the headphone jack.  So there are two cables, at opposite ends of the device.  That's really ugly and inconvenient.  I can't just drop any other smartphone into a radio's docking station like I can any iPhone/iPod.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

First of all, could they be using the local host TB controller on the device ...

 

Somehow, I doubt they're using Thunderbolt.  TB is effectively a PCI Express slot with a convenient connector.  A device to attach to that would require all the logic of a PCIe expansion card.  That's massive overkill and a very expensive addition for something to satisfy an iPod/iPhone's needs.  And it would make the device incompatible with PCs and some Macs.

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  • First rumored photos of new Dock Connector plug for iPhone 5 show 8 pins [u]
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