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Apple warned Samsung of possible patent infringement in 2010 presentation

post #1 of 142
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Boris Teksler, Apple's director of patent licensing and strategy, said late CEO Steve Jobs and then-COO Tim Cook in 2010 warned Samsung that its smartphones may infringe on the iPhone's patents.

In the sixth day of the ongoing Apple v. Samsung patent trial, Teksler said he created a presentation outlining the patents Apple believed Samsung infringed upon with its smartphones, reports All Things D.

The presentation, which Teksler was quick to point out was made in Apple's Keynote, goes through a litany of U.S. patents held by Apple, including the infamous "rubber-banding" UI feature, e-mail threading and gesture heuristics. While the Korean company's implementation of the Android application stack appeared to take up much of the presentation, a few slides pointed out uncanny design and packaging similarities between the iPhone and Samsung's handsets.

?We didn?t understand how a trusted partner would build a copycat product like that,? Teksler said, pointing out the issue was serious enough that Jobs and Cook met with Samsung executives to discuss the matter.

According to his testimony, Teksler noted Apple held patents required for standards, core computing and those associated with what has become iOS. Apple is not interested in licensing the patents, Teksler said, because "it's what we don't wish to share and don't want others to mimic."

Apple Presentation to Samsung
Source: Apple v. Samsung court documents


Apple highlights in the presentation's second slide that "Samsung is a key Apple partner," however the company's choice to use Google's Android platform "undermines Samsung's greater relationship with Apple." The iPhone maker has long been at odds with Android, with Jobs famously quoted in his biography as saying the mobile OS was a "stolen product" and that he was "willing to go thermonuclear war" against it.

The presentation pulls no punches when describing Android, saying that it "makes extensive use of Apple intellectual property?without Apple's permission" and is "designed to lead companies to imitate the iPhone product design and strategy."



It was also discovered on Friday that Apple had in fact offered to license some of its patents to Samsung in 2010 for royalties equaling $30 per phone and $40 per tablet, though it is unclear if the two companies even discussed the deal.

Apple v. Samsung picks up on Monday with more testimony from Teksler who will be followed by Samsung's first witness.
post #2 of 142

lol sooo many of these articles!

post #3 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by xRCx View Post

lol sooo many of these articles!

I do agree with whomever stated that this could diminish some of the "magic" behind's Apple's products by pulling the curtain back on so many of these aspects we had to previously speculate about.

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post #4 of 142

Holy Girdles, Batman!!! 

 

First, you really need to go to the Apple Presentation and scroll through the pages... Before long you start to get the impression that with this piece of evidence Apple is moving beyond the "rectangle with rounded corners (where Samscum wants everyone to stay focused)....and beyond the copying of icons...and beyond the similarity of packaging and accessories.

 

In this presentation Apple is taking full aim at the underlying Android OS and saying HERE TOO be Dragons!!

 

Ladies and gents, Apple is saying that Samscum is infringing on Apple's IP by running Android on their devices! THIS is it!

 

If Apple can win this case, and they have a better than equal shot at winning, then Google/Android is DOOMED. 

 

If this goes through the way Apple is hoping, they can kill Android dead and move on to sue all Android phone and tablet makers. 

 

One iOS to rule them all!!

 

I LOVE it!!

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post #5 of 142
Quote:
I do agree with whomever stated that this could diminish some of the "magic" behind's Apple's products by pulling the curtain back on so many of these aspects we had to previously speculate about.

I don't think so, if anything it will bring even more excitement around Apple, because if people listen to the testamonys, they will see how passionate these people are about their products. People will want them even more.
post #6 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radjin View Post

I don't think so, if anything it will bring even more excitement around Apple, because if people listen to the testamonys, they will see how passionate these people are about their products. People will want them even more.

Nice counter-arugment. Kudos!

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post #7 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

Holy Girdles, Batman!!! 

 

First, you really need to go to the Apple Presentation and scroll through the pages... Before long you start to get the impression that with this piece of evidence Apple is moving beyond the "rectangle with rounded corners (where Samscum wants everyone to stay focused)....and beyond the copying of icons...and beyond the similarity of packaging and accessories.

 

In this presentation Apple is taking full aim at the underlying Android OS and saying HERE TOO be Dragons!!

 

Ladies and gents, Apple is saying that Samscum is infringing on Apple's IP by running Android on their devices! THIS is it!

 

If Apple can win this case, and they have a better than equal shot at winning, then Google/Android is DOOMED. 

 

If this goes through the way Apple is hoping, they can kill Android dead and move on to sue all Android phone and tablet makers. 

 

One iOS to rule them all!!

 

I LOVE it!!

 

While I totally despise Android, I do not think it's in anyone's best interest to have it vanish... Apple and consumers would be better served with Android sticking around and Google paying up for the IP they have stolen.

post #8 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Market_Player View Post

 

While I totally despise Android, I do not think it's in anyone's best interest to have it vanish... Apple and consumers would be better served with Android sticking around and Google paying up for the IP they have stolen.

I actually agree with you, and even though Apple could kill Android off, I'm not sure they want to do so, since they did offer Sanscum a chance to license their IP. 

 

However, if Apple wins this case, it will serve notice to all other manufacturers who license Android that they need to get in line and pay Apple for past sales AND pay going forward if they intend to use Android. 

 

This may cause everyone to drop Android (effectively killing it). 

 

The real loser in this may be Google. There may be a huge judgement against Google by Apple, but beyond that, Google may find themselves without Apple supporting Google Search and Maps. Without Apple, their bottom line will suffer and the combined judgement and loss of revenue may weaken Google to where another contender can come forward. Whatever Apple does if they win, Google will suffer.

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post #9 of 142
Jesus, the packaging is a complete rip off! There's no way this is a coincidence.

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post #10 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Jesus, the packaging is a complete rip off! There's no way this is a coincidence.

I liked the really ancient eco-friendly/easily recyclable cardboard boxes, but I'm consistent in this regard. I don't think anything needs overdone packaging just to tell users that it's great.

post #11 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Jesus, the packaging is a complete rip off! There's no way this is a coincidence.

 

but, but… it's just rectangles and boxes… Apple wants to patent "black"??

 

A box with those exact specifications and an interior lift-out "shelf" is just the natural progression for smartphone packaging when the smartphone looks exactly like an iPho… oops.

post #12 of 142

What this makes me wonder about the most is...

 

Why isn't Apple suing Google directly for infringing with Android?

 

I can see going after Samsung for the look and feel copying. That's pretty blatant. I suppose it "kills two birds with one stone" to also attack the underlying platform? If they win, it's a win against all Android phones and Android itself?

 

But still… it seems that a parallel suit vs Google/Android would be appropriate.

post #13 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

What this makes me wonder about the most is...

 

Why isn't Apple suing Google directly for infringing with Android?

 

I can see going after Samsung for the look and feel copying. That's pretty blatant. I suppose it "kills two birds with one stone" to also attack the underlying platform? If they win, it's a win against all Android phones and Android itself?

 

But still… it seems that a parallel suit vs Google/Android would be appropriate.

Where is the money? Samsung is the probably biggest profiter from Android. That's why.

 

Google may have produced an operating system, but really, what damage of itself has that caused? Relatively little. Yes, they have produced handsets under the Google name but it's a drop in the ocean compared to Samsung, HTC, etc. Like you say, two birds with one stone.

post #14 of 142

I had a feeling Apples intention was to set a precedent. The way things are going most companies will be ditching Android due to the cost of licensing to everyone but its owner. Google will have to come up with other ways of tracking people.

post #15 of 142

Or maybe they're seeking the Microsoft result. Oddly, Android phone makers pay license fees to M$...

 

Apple tried to make that happen with Samsung. If everyone had to pay $30 per phone to Apple, on top of what they pay to M$, Android would not be nearly as compelling for manufacturers...

 

Samsung ignoring that offer led to a different strategy (straight litigation) perhaps...

post #16 of 142

Did anyone else notice that the box labelled under iPhone 4 is a 3G or 3GS, it looks like Samsung's lawyers aren't the only ones who can make mistakes.

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post #17 of 142
It's not necessary iPhone 4 or 4S. It's the complete iPhone product family ranging from packaging, UI, look and feel, iOS .....all the way.
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post #18 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

 

but, but… it's just rectangles and boxes… Apple wants to patent "black"??

 

A box with those exact specifications and an interior lift-out "shelf" is just the natural progression for smartphone packaging when the smartphone looks exactly like an iPho… oops.

 

Actually the first LG Prada had this kind of packing before the first iPhone came out, and they were probably not the first as well.

post #19 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by mausz View Post

 

Actually the first LG Prada had this kind of packing before the first iPhone came out, and they were probably not the first as well.

 

Apart from not displaying an image of the phone on the box.... and having completely different  dimensions. 

post #20 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

Or maybe they're seeking the Microsoft result. Oddly, Android phone makers pay license fees to M$...

 

Apple tried to make that happen with Samsung. If everyone had to pay $30 per phone to Apple, on top of what they pay to M$, Android would not be nearly as compelling for manufacturers...

 

Samsung ignoring that offer led to a different strategy (straight litigation) perhaps...

 

I believe the licensing fee Microsoft is collecting is quite trivial - less than $15 per unit.

 

The presentation doesn't seem to cover any design patents (look & feel) in question - so I'm guessing that the patents listed in the presentation are either trivial or invalidated.  If I remember correctly from last year's lawsuit in Austrialia, Apple was willing to license non-core/junk patents only.

 

Well, consider that no courts in Netherland, Austrialia, Germany or UK agreed with Apple that Samsung infringed on Apple's design patents - the only exception was the Dusseldorf Court, known as East-Texas court of Germany (or patent troll court), where Apple was able to ban Galaxy Tab under Germany's unique "unfair competition" law.  There were a few Android related infringements (eg, photo gallery scroll patent), but Samsung later removed the infringing features. 


Edited by tooltalk - 8/11/12 at 1:15pm
post #21 of 142
lol, that isn't an iPhone 4

 

 


Tim Cook using Galaxy Tabs as frisbees

 

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post #22 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by mausz View Post

Actually the first LG Prada had this kind of packing before the first iPhone came out, and they were probably not the first as well.

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post #23 of 142

I must admit, even i am shocked at the amount of blatant copying Samesung has done of Apples products.  Event the packaging is copied.  Can't Samesung create anything themselves??

post #24 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

 

I believe the licensing fee Microsoft is collecting is quite trivial - less than $15 per unit.

 

$15 per unit is not trivial, it would make it one of the costlier components. With activations at one million per day that's 15 million dollars per day, five and a half billion dollars per year.
post #25 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

What this makes me wonder about the most is...

 

Why isn't Apple suing Google directly for infringing with Android?

 

I can see going after Samsung for the look and feel copying. That's pretty blatant. I suppose it "kills two birds with one stone" to also attack the underlying platform? If they win, it's a win against all Android phones and Android itself?

 

But still… it seems that a parallel suit vs Google/Android would be appropriate.


Possibly because they have nothing? You need something more than copycat accusations to file a suit. If you look at some of what has been posted, single exhibits and motions have been quite detailed. I'd like to know what you feel they would sue on beyond the overly emotional knee-jerk response of "Google copied Apple". If they think they have a case, it's likely that they're already preparing it. They may simply have nothing. Android itself doesn't have any trade dress issues. Do they violate specific patents? Will the patents hold up when tested in court? Will more Apple documents come out in the discovery process? Everyone suggesting legal strategies should really admit to themselves that they know absolutely nothing beyond what they've read on here.

post #26 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

Everyone suggesting legal strategies should really admit to themselves that they know absolutely nothing beyond what they've read on here.

Since you mentioned that, one of the best sources of what's going on in the courtroom blow-by-blow: the Mercury News. It's the one I've been following and very often cited as a source for stories posted by Ars, TheVerge, CNET, etc.

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_21275393/

 

There may be a lot being left out of some of the stories you're depending on to present an accurate view.

 

EDIT: Apple's case should be mostly wrapped up by sometime Monday, then it's on to Samsung's arguments and presentations.


Edited by Gatorguy - 8/11/12 at 5:55am
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post #27 of 142

The photo of the Galaxy inside its case, with the lid open, is just so damning. Even if one buys Samsung's argument that a full touchscreen with a bezel is inevitable technological evolution, how do they argue that a similar case design is also inevitable? But it doesn't seem like Apple lawyers are arguing their case this way.

post #28 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

What this makes me wonder about the most is...

Why isn't Apple suing Google directly for infringing with Android?

I can see going after Samsung for the look and feel copying. That's pretty blatant. I suppose it "kills two birds with one stone" to also attack the underlying platform? If they win, it's a win against all Android phones and Android itself?

But still… it seems that a parallel suit vs Google/Android would be appropriate.

Although the software was written by Google they don't implement it, nor really profit from it. They can be sued but it's more difficult. If no phone maker used Android it would sit dormant on their servers. That might change now that they own Motorola Mobility.
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post #29 of 142

Using that line of reasoning how could Oracle have expected to get a couple of billion from suing Google over Android? What would be the difference between Oracle or Apple suing?

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post #30 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

What this makes me wonder about the most is...

 

Why isn't Apple suing Google directly for infringing with Android?

 

I can see going after Samsung for the look and feel copying. That's pretty blatant. I suppose it "kills two birds with one stone" to also attack the underlying platform? If they win, it's a win against all Android phones and Android itself?

 

But still… it seems that a parallel suit vs Google/Android would be appropriate.

Contrary to what people around here feel, the general public views Google in a very positive light. Look what happen in the Oracle trial. That one was supposed to be a slam dunk for Oracle. Although Apple has an overall positive image in the eyes of the general public, I think they may look at them as a  bit snobbish or arrogant. Google on the other hand is viewed as the geeky Internet free service that everyone uses on a daily basis. I think Apple should be careful about going after Google although they do have every right to.

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post #31 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty of Bath View Post

$15 per unit is not trivial, it would make it one of the costlier components. With activations at one million per day that's 15 million dollars per day, five and a half billion dollars per year.

Nice to see you teach some basic math to tooltalk.

You might have added, 5.5B in pure profit, which, at a P/E of 15x, is not chump change...... :-)
post #32 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Since you mentioned that, one of the best sources of what's going on in the courtroom blow-by-blow: the Mercury News. It's the one I've been following and very often cited as a source for stories posted by Ars, TheVerge, CNET, etc.
http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_21275393/

There may be a lot being left out of some of the stories you're depending on to present an accurate view.

EDIT: Apple's case should be mostly wrapped up by sometime Monday, then it's on to Samsung's arguments and presentations.

So, what do they tell you about an accurate view that you want to share with us and you haven't heard here?

Or is it just another one of your vacuous passive-aggressive charm offensives?
post #33 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


So, what do they tell you about an accurate view that you want to share with us and you haven't heard here?
Or is it just another one of your vacuous passive-aggressive charm offensives?

If you followed the link and didn't learn anything new, then you're obviously not one of those that could benefit from the live courtroom blog. Others less informed may find the Mercury News blog helpful.

 

Rather than continue to get upset and look for problems that don't exist, why not just do what you intended to do.

http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/151862/internal-sales-documents-show-samsung-has-lost-the-war-for-tablet-supremacy-in-the-us/80#post_2166244


Edited by Gatorguy - 8/11/12 at 7:15am
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post #34 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

 

I believe the licensing fee Microsoft is collecting is quite trivial - less than $15 per unit.

 

The presentation doesn't seem to cover any design patents (look & feel) in question - so I'm guessing that the patents listed in the presentation are either trivial or invalidated.  If I remember correctly from last year's lawsuit in Austrialia, Apple was willing to license non-core/junk patents only.

 

Well, consider that no courts in Netherland, Austrialia, Germany or UK agreed with Apple that Samsung infringed on Apple's design patents - the only exception was the Dusseldorf Court, known as East-Texas court of Germany or patent troll where Apple was able to ban Galaxy Tab under Germany's unique "unfair competition" law.  There were a few Android related infringements (eg, photo gallery scroll patent), but Samsung later removed the infringing features. 

 

The court case in Australia is ongoing and is being heard now, there was a preliminary injunction overturned on appeal which banned sales of the Galaxy Tab 10.1.


Edited by hill60 - 8/11/12 at 7:23am
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post #35 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Contrary to what people around here feel, the general public views Google in a very positive light. Look what happen in the Oracle trial. That one was supposed to be a slam dunk for Oracle. Although Apple has an overall positive image in the eyes of the general public, I think they may look at them as a  bit snobbish or arrogant. Google on the other hand is viewed as the geeky Internet free service that everyone uses on a daily basis. I think Apple should be careful about going after Google although they do have every right to.


Good point. Furthermore, Samsung has gone above and beyond what Google has done.

 

Samsung has also profited more from their handsets than Google has from Android.

post #36 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

If you followed the link and didn't learn anything new, then you're obviously not one of those that could benefit from the live courtroom blog. Others less informed may find the Mercury News blog helpful.

Rather than continue to get upset and look for problems that don't exist, why not just do what you intended to do.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/151862/internal-sales-documents-show-samsung-has-lost-the-war-for-tablet-supremacy-in-the-us/80#post_2166244

Yeah, I thought so. What else is new.

Btw, the AI coverage is comprehensive and accurate, in my view. Member comments add further insight. No need to waste time reading some courtroom blog.
post #37 of 142

Fear not: Android will NOT vanish. It has already left Google’s ability to control it (yes, they’d like to) thanks to Amazon and many other flavors, but it will NOT vanish even if Google were to abandon it (which they won’t soon: Motorola). There’s only one other option (Windows RT, soon) for a smartphone OS unless OEMs want to develop their own from scratch... and good luck with that.

 

However, if Android is forced to respect Apple patents, Android (in all its flavors) will have to do what Microsoft did: innovate and do something different! Apple/Android/Microsoft will still all copy each other in the small, non-patented, ways, but the big patentable stuff will be different. That sounds awesome to me. (Even though the patent system is broken, that would be one good out come.)

 

Android will always face the problem that hardware-makers and the OS (and the carriers!) are not all on the same page together... UNLESS someone (Amazon?) does what Apple did and bring control under one roof—a new thing based on Android that isn’t even Android-compatible and doesn’t get the same updates. But it might at least GET updates, Apple-style, unlike most Android devices.

 

P.S. That Samsung packaging is NOT copying Apple. It’s just a rectangle! All telephone packages have always looked and worked exactly like that, and they always will. It’s pure coincidence that it looks/works like an iPhone box ;)

post #38 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post


Good point. Furthermore, Samsung has gone above and beyond what Google has done.

 

Samsung has also profited more from their handsets than Google has from Android.

Samsung is also a foreign company without the same cache in the US that Apple has. However this only addresses the court of public opinion without consideration for the actual evidence. In the case of Google when your product becomes a verb in popular usage, that does represent a substantial mindshare.

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post #39 of 142
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post
Fear not: Android will NOT vanish. It has already left Google’s ability to control it (yes, they’d like to) thanks to Amazon and many other flavors, but it will NOT vanish even if Google were to abandon it.

 

Funny how the way Android is pitched and thing Google has been trying to prevent from the start may be the only future for the platform.

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post #40 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Contrary to what people around here feel, the general public views Google in a very positive light. Look what happen in the Oracle trial. That one was supposed to be a slam dunk for Oracle. Although Apple has an overall positive image in the eyes of the general public, I think they may look at them as a  bit snobbish or arrogant. Google on the other hand is viewed as the geeky Internet free service that everyone uses on a daily basis. I think Apple should be careful about going after Google although they do have every right to.

 

Also, if they win here, then it's established in a legal sense that Android as a product, infringes on iOS and Apple's patents.  Google would be absolutely insane not to immediately settle out of court and either licence the IP or work around it in that case.  

 

Despite their hyper-agressive "we own the world" attitude, Google has shown some deference in the past to Apple's patents and actively tried not to copy them at times so I think they would comply when faced with irrefutable facts.  

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