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Apple warned Samsung of possible patent infringement in 2010 presentation - Page 2

post #41 of 142
After reading about this court case and watching nearly two seasons of Suits I'm pretty sure I could pass the LSAT¡

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post #42 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

Holy Girdles, Batman!!! 

 

First, you really need to go to the Apple Presentation and scroll through the pages... Before long you start to get the impression that with this piece of evidence Apple is moving beyond the "rectangle with rounded corners (where Samscum wants everyone to stay focused)....and beyond the copying of icons...and beyond the similarity of packaging and accessories.

 

In this presentation Apple is taking full aim at the underlying Android OS and saying HERE TOO be Dragons!!

 

Ladies and gents, Apple is saying that Samscum is infringing on Apple's IP by running Android on their devices! THIS is it!

 

If Apple can win this case, and they have a better than equal shot at winning, then Google/Android is DOOMED. 

 

If this goes through the way Apple is hoping, they can kill Android dead and move on to sue all Android phone and tablet makers. 

 

One iOS to rule them all!!

 

I LOVE it!!

 

Yes!  If you review the preso you can see that Apple has hundreds of patents and assertions of violations by Android... If only a small percentage are found to be valid and violated, Sammy and Googy could be in deep dungus!

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post #43 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Also, if they win here, then it's established in a legal sense that Android as a product, infringes on iOS and Apple's patents.  Google would be absolutely insane not to immediately settle out of court and either licence the IP or work around it in that case.  

Despite their hyper-agressive "we own the world" attitude, Google has shown some deference in the past to Apple's patents and actively tried not to copy them at times so I think they would comply when faced with irrefutable facts.  

Yeah that attitude kinda sucks. In other words, It's only a crime if you catch them red handed.
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post #44 of 142

With every passing day, reading more and more of these articles, I only feel more and more that Apple is going to win this by a large margin for at least a large portion of the lawsuits. Samsung has been shouting and screaming and kicking around to try and make sure that everyone thinks that they didn't copy, but even their own presentations, meetings from 2010, warnings ánd so far several witnesses, are now proving Samsung's been lying.

 

Honestly? I do hope Samsung loses this big time. I am personally of the mind that not everything that Apple has patented shóúld be patented, but there are too many variables in the design-area of Samsung's products that simply scream "look at me, I look like Apple". There's nothing wrong with cosplay, but at some point you have to get back to the real world and start doing your own thing.

post #45 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

but, but… it's just rectangles and boxes… Apple wants to patent "black"??

A box with those exact specifications and an interior lift-out "shelf" is just the natural progression for smartphone packaging when the smartphone looks exactly like an iPho… oops.

But that's pretty much what Samsung's lawyer John Quinn has been saying in court when the jury is presented evidence of blatant copying! "Does Apple own the color green?" was a question he asked Susan Kare. Samsung is paying Quinn over $800/hour to repeat forum troll arguments. Quinn is also asking Apple's expert witnesses how much Apple is paying them for their testimony, which is a lame attempt to discredit them. I think it's an ironic question coming from the highest paid person in the courtroom (Apple's lawyers aren't making $800/hour).

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post #46 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post


But that's pretty much what Samsung's lawyer John Quinn has been saying in court when the jury is presented evidence of blatant copying! "Does Apple own the color green?" was a question he asked Susan Kare. Samsung is paying Quinn over $800/hour to repeat forum troll arguments. Quinn is also asking Apple's expert witnesses how much Apple is paying them for their testimony, which is a lame attempt to discredit them. I think it's an ironic question coming from the highest paid person in the courtroom (Apple's lawyers aren't making $800/hour).

Look at T-Mobile... they were able to patent the colour magenta which prohibits any other provider in the same business to use that specific colour. So yes, I believe that it cán be patented. But I don't think that a colour should be patentable though. And neither should it be possible to patent "rounded corners".

 

But I dó believe in intellectual property and copyright. Now, if you draw a circle and someone else does the same thing, big boohoo but that happens. But if you deliberately design your phone to have a véry large quantity of similar design elements as the competition… well, that's a whole different ball game. In that case you're deliberately entering someone's area of intellectual property, which is a dangerous area to be in if someone finds out. Drawing a set of shapes in nearly the exact way as the competition (Apple in this case), and then using similar materials and colours on top of that is proof by itself that Samsung is trying to steal some of the thunder that Apple created by doing the same thing.

post #47 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Funny how the way Android is pitched and thing Google has been trying to prevent from the start may be the only future for the platform.

Ironic perhaps, but until they freaking bought Motofaila, I thought Android was more strategic "free" software that Google gave away in order to drive more people to surrender their search queries and personal information to Google. It's what they're really after anyway. I'm still unsure whether Google wants to be a hardware company or if they really did spend $12.5 billion for the lulzpatents.

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post #48 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Market_Player View Post

 

While I totally despise Android, I do not think it's in anyone's best interest to have it vanish... Apple and consumers would be better served with Android sticking around and Google paying up for the IP they have stolen.

 

Same here.  Best to have Android around, so Apple can point to all Android devices and say "Close but no cigar."

Let Apple do the innovation, patent it, and let Google copy it badly enough to not get sued.

 

Time to bring Justin Long back and start an "I'm an iPhone" ad campaign.  

He could perform dual roles, as both "iPhone" and "Wannabe."

 

iPhone: "Hi. I'm an iPhone."

 

Wannabe: "Hello ladies and gentlemen.  I am a want-to-be."

 

iPhone: "Wow.  You look kinda like me, Wannabe.  But, you know, more squarish."

 

Wannabe: "Yes sir.  That I do, sir."

 

iPhone: "And, don't take this the wrong way, but you're not quite as cool."

 

Wannabe: "Well, sir, you just can't copy coolness, sir."

 

iPhone: "Yeah, but cheer up.  Maybe square will be cool.  You know, some day."

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post #49 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

After reading about this court case and watching nearly two seasons of Suits I'm pretty sure I could pass the LSAT¡

 

Sponge Bob & South Park here... same results.

 

...Or maybe it was Sesame Street's "One of these things is not like the others"... sure as hell doesn't apply to Sammy's approach to competing with iDevices!


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 8/11/12 at 11:04am
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post #50 of 142
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

iPhone: "Wow.  You look kinda like me, Wannabe.  But, you know, more squarish."

 

Wannabe: "Yes sir.  That I do, sir."

 

"Because you have a patent on rectangles, so I had to be square."

Yes, I know squares are rectangles.

post #51 of 142

Got a new motto for them: Samsung, so unoriginal we can't even design a box.

 

I'm guessing that every time Samsung has a tough design decision they ask the question "What would Apple do?" Then they take a trip to the nearest Apple Store to find out.

post #52 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

Holy Girdles, Batman!!! 

 

First, you really need to go to the Apple Presentation and scroll through the pages... Before long you start to get the impression that with this piece of evidence Apple is moving beyond the "rectangle with rounded corners (where Samscum wants everyone to stay focused)....and beyond the copying of icons...and beyond the similarity of packaging and accessories.

 

In this presentation Apple is taking full aim at the underlying Android OS and saying HERE TOO be Dragons!!

 

Ladies and gents, Apple is saying that Samscum is infringing on Apple's IP by running Android on their devices! THIS is it!

 

If Apple can win this case, and they have a better than equal shot at winning, then Google/Android is DOOMED. 

 

If this goes through the way Apple is hoping, they can kill Android dead and move on to sue all Android phone and tablet makers. 

 

One iOS to rule them all!!

 

I LOVE it!!

The Android response.  "But we're FREEEEEEEE"

 

Android fanboys have one thing in common.  They want cheap products.  There's an old saying.  The highest quality is rarely the least expensive.  It's far more expensive to create from scratch than simply copy.  The Android crowd seems to like copying.  It's cheaper.

 

I really hope Apple wins.  Regardless of Apple's dominance in markets, they still improve their products and they don't always go the cheap route.

 

I may not always be able to afford the top end model, but their products hold up longer.  I'm still using a 1st Gen Intel Core Duo iMac, just waiting for the new iMac.  I think getting over 7 years of life out of a computer is pretty damn good.  The only thing I ran out of was hard drive space since I have  a large catalog of music at my finger tips.

post #53 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by flabber View Post

There's nothing wrong with cosplay, but at some point you have to get back to the real world and start doing your own thing.
Wow, this is the first reference to cosplay I have seen in AI. This is starting to be real divergent group here.

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post #54 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

Same here.  Best to have Android around, so Apple can point to all Android devices and say "Close but no cigar."
Let Apple do the innovation, patent it, and let Google copy it badly enough to not get sued.

Time to bring Justin Long back and start an "I'm an iPhone" ad campaign.  
He could perform dual roles, as both "iPhone" and "Wannabe."

iPhone: "Hi. I'm an iPhone."

Wannabe: "Hello ladies and gentlemen.  I am a want-to-be."

iPhone: "Wow.  You look kinda like me, Wannabe.  But, you know, more squarish."

Wannabe: "Yes sir.  That I do, sir."

iPhone: "And, don't take this the wrong way, but you're not quite as cool."

Wannabe: "Well, sir, you just can't copy coolness, sir."

iPhone: "Yeah, but cheer up.  Maybe square will be cool.  You know, some day."
Well done. That painted quite a polished picture in my head. You really caught the essence of those ads.

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post #55 of 142
Originally Posted by flabber View Post
There's nothing wrong with cosplay, but at some point you have to get back to the real world and start doing your own thing.

700 700

                                   Apple                                                                                Samsung

post #56 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Sorry my mind was going in different direction with cosplay...more adult oriented...

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post #57 of 142
Originally Posted by diplication View Post
Sorry my mind was going in different direction with cosplay...more adult oriented...

 

… Is there really that much tentacle hentai cosplay out there? One would think a girl and her buddies (operating the tentacle monster) couldn't just walk around like that. lol.gif

post #58 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

… Is there really that much tentacle hentai cosplay out there? One would think a girl and her buddies (operating the tentacle monster) couldn't just walk around like that. lol.gif
Ouch! Too far! Too far!
Okay maybe not THAT adult. Eeeeww...

I could google that to see exactly what you're talking about, but I'm sure reality is a lot worse than my imagination...not that I'm judging...

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post #59 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

700 700

                                   Apple                                                                                Samsung

 

Awright!  Which one is the real Misty-May?

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post #60 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Awright!  Which one is the real Misty-May?
I was thinking Susan Estrich with a black wig.

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post #61 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Market_Player View Post

 

While I totally despise Android, I do not think it's in anyone's best interest to have it vanish... Apple and consumers would be better served with Android sticking around and Google paying up for the IP they have stolen.

why? your logic makes no sense. apple is the only tech company that has been innovating for years. everyone else is trying to catch up or copying. why not? we really don't need android.

post #62 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


Although the software was written by Google they don't implement it, nor really profit from it. They can be sued but it's more difficult. 

 

Not really. IP law is very clear on the following point: anyone (Google) that enables third parties (Samsung) to infringe on another's IP (Apple's) is just as liable as the infringer. Apple's decision to sue Samsung and not Google is strictly a strategic one. 

post #63 of 142
Originally Posted by mac_dog View Post
why? your logic makes no sense. apple is the only tech company that has been innovating for years. everyone else is trying to catch up or copying. why not? we really don't need android.


I think what he meant to say was, "Innovate, don't litigate, Apple," in the sense that Apple shouldn't protect anything they do, but instead just make more new things if they're "really so good at innovating".

post #64 of 142
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post #65 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by diplication View Post

  •  
  •  
  •  
I was thinking Susan Estrich with a black wig.

 

Yeah... They had to delay Estrich's license to participate until they installed a pole in the courtroom :)

 

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8655396/Mystery%201.aif


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 8/11/12 at 12:12pm
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post #66 of 142

Not taking sides but this was an interesting comment. In other words, "I'd rather get my news via hearsay and potentially uninformed opinion rather than from the source."

 

How odd.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


Yeah, I thought so. What else is new.
Btw, the AI coverage is comprehensive and accurate, in my view. Member comments add further insight. No need to waste time reading some courtroom blog.
post #67 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

 

Apart from not displaying an image of the phone on the box.... and having completely different  dimensions. 

 

The point is Samsung's products copy Apple's in MANY ways. The Hardware. The software. The cables. The packaging. Their advertising. They didn't simply "borrow" one or two things, nor is this about rectangles... It goes way beyond that. Samsung's product copied Apple very closely and in many ways. Inspiration is fine. Out and copying? Not so much.
 
 
post #68 of 142

I thought the cosplay was a fitting analogy here, since Samsung is doing such a good job being someone who they aren't :)

post #69 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucklehead View Post

Not taking sides but this was an interesting comment. In other words, "I'd rather get my news via hearsay and potentially uninformed opinion rather than from the source."

 

How odd.

 

 

A "courtroom blog" is far from being "the source."  You are making yourself look foolish by implying such.  

 

Using the weasely words "hearsay" and "potentially uninformed opinion," doesn't help your case either.  

 

All opinion is potentially uninformed, although opinion from a source like Apple Inisder that has been investigating and reporting on such things since long before smartphones were even a thing, would be "informed" by definition.  Additionally, "hearsay" is just a more negative way of saying "rumour," and while AppleInsider is indeed a rumour site, in this case, they are just reporting straight facts as they are released.  So that argument is kind of empty also.  

post #70 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

Also, if they win here, then it's established in a legal sense that Android as a product, infringes on iOS and Apple's patents.  Google would be absolutely insane not to immediately settle out of court and either licence the IP or work around it in that case.  

 

Despite their hyper-agressive "we own the world" attitude, Google has shown some deference in the past to Apple's patents and actively tried not to copy them at times so I think they would comply when faced with irrefutable facts.  

Yet you haven't said even suggested a basis for Apple to sue them. Perhaps you should stick to playing with legos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

"Because you have a patent on rectangles, so I had to be square."

Yes, I know squares are rectangles.


If we're talking about the design patent, design patents are meant to be pretty specific. You can find the ones Apple is claiming in some of these links. It's not really as clear as you want to believe.

post #71 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty of Bath View Post

 

$15 per unit is not trivial, it would make it one of the costlier components. With activations at one million per day that's 15 million dollars per day, five and a half billion dollars per year.

 

I said less than $15.. Microsoft's initial asking price was $15, but nobody pays the asking-price - HTC was known to have struck a deal with Microsoft for $5. Samsung makes low / high end smartphones and is known to be paying anywhere between $1 - $5 per unit (or ~1% of total cost). 

 

You seriously don't think Microsoft is collecting $5B in Android patents licensing fees alone, do you?

post #72 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63 View Post

 

The point is Samsung's products copy Apple's in MANY ways. The Hardware. The software. The cables. The packaging. Their advertising. They didn't simply "borrow" one or two things, nor is this about rectangles... It goes way beyond that. Samsung's product copied Apple very closely and in many ways. Inspiration is fine. Out and copying? Not so much.
 
 

 

 

I don't think there is any denial that Samsung tries to emulate Apple's success (and packaging designs), but consider the following 

 

"... When Apple was developing its campaign to promote the first iPhone, it considered – and rejected – advertisements that touted alleged Apple ―firsts with the iPhone. As one Apple employee explained to an overly exuberant Apple marketer, I don‘t know how many things we can come up with that you can legitimately claim we did first. Certainly we have the first successful versions of many features, but that‘s different than launching something to market first. In this vein, the employee methodically explained that Palm, Nokia and others had first invented the iPhone‘s most prominent features."

 

post #73 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

 

 

I don't think there is any denial that Samsung tries to emulate Apple's success (and packaging designs), but consider the following 

 

"... When Apple was developing its campaign to promote the first iPhone, it considered – and rejected – advertisements that touted alleged Apple ―firsts with the iPhone. As one Apple employee explained to an overly exuberant Apple marketer, I don‘t know how many things we can come up with that you can legitimately claim we did first. Certainly we have the first successful versions of many features, but that‘s different than launching something to market first. In this vein, the employee methodically explained that Palm, Nokia and others had first invented the iPhone‘s most prominent features."

 

Thank you for the fine example of hearsay. Perhaps one might provide a link?

 

Cheers

post #74 of 142

Why so defensive and argumentative? How is the word "hearsay" and the phrase "potentially uninformed opinion" weasely?

 

There are informed and uninformed opinions. I would classify non-lawyers talking legalities and legal strategy to be people who fall into the latter category. Considering so many people here seem to get their "news" from few sources, "potentially uninformed" was the appropriate phrasing.

Please look up the word hearsay. Hearsay is not the equivalent to rumour. It is information not from the original source. Appleinsider is far from unbiased and if you disagree, you've been here too long.

 

Still trying to understand why you are being so defensive. I asked a valid question. It wasn't an attack. I would ask the same question of anyone who is happy to obtain their information from a single source.

 

Someone is being overly sensitive.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

A "courtroom blog" is far from being "the source."  You are making yourself look foolish by implying such.  

 

Using the weasely words "hearsay" and "potentially uninformed opinion," doesn't help your case either.  

 

All opinion is potentially uninformed, although opinion from a source like Apple Inisder that has been investigating and reporting on such things since long before smartphones were even a thing, would be "informed" by definition.  Additionally, "hearsay" is just a more negative way of saying "rumour," and while AppleInsider is indeed a rumour site, in this case, they are just reporting straight facts as they are released.  So that argument is kind of empty also.  

post #75 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

 

 

I don't think there is any denial that Samsung tries to emulate Apple's success (and packaging designs), but consider the following 

 

"... When Apple was developing its campaign to promote the first iPhone, it considered – and rejected – advertisements that touted alleged Apple ―firsts with the iPhone. As one Apple employee explained to an overly exuberant Apple marketer, I don‘t know how many things we can come up with that you can legitimately claim we did first. Certainly we have the first successful versions of many features, but that‘s different than launching something to market first. In this vein, the employee methodically explained that Palm, Nokia and others had first invented the iPhone‘s most prominent features."

 

I understand full well that Apple are often not first. Never claimed they were. That said, I don't recall another mobile computing device / phone that predates the iPhone that is anywhere near like the iPhone in the way that Sammy's stuff is like Apple's.  There may have been a couple of full-screen devices, but none looked like or worked like the iPhone. The hardware was different. Their interfaces were completely different. Their feature sets and capabilities were completely different. There simply was never a device that could be confused with the iPhone.None. That is of course until the iPhone copying started. Apple may not have been first in all areas, but they did it right. I'd say that Apple's sales seem to  support that. Samsung's iClones have been a hit for them. If Apple ripped off someone in the ways that Samsung have ripped off Apple, I'd expect them to get their ass handed to them.

post #76 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

 

 

I don't think there is any denial that Samsung tries to emulate Apple's success (and packaging designs), but consider the following 

 

"... When Apple was developing its campaign to promote the first iPhone, it considered – and rejected – advertisements that touted alleged Apple ―firsts with the iPhone. As one Apple employee explained to an overly exuberant Apple marketer, I don‘t know how many things we can come up with that you can legitimately claim we did first. Certainly we have the first successful versions of many features, but that‘s different than launching something to market first. In this vein, the employee methodically explained that Palm, Nokia and others had first invented the iPhone‘s most prominent features."

 

 

The most prominent features were "Slide to unlock" followed by multitouch, so I guess you are wrong.

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post #77 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Since you mentioned that, one of the best sources of what's going on in the courtroom blow-by-blow: the Mercury News. It's the one I've been following and very often cited as a source for stories posted by Ars, TheVerge, CNET, etc.

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_21275393/

 

There may be a lot being left out of some of the stories you're depending on to present an accurate view.

 

EDIT: Apple's case should be mostly wrapped up by sometime Monday, then it's on to Samsung's arguments and presentations.

Thanks for the link, although it still doesn't support the position of the other guy who suggested Apple should just sue Google over whatever is possible. I actually wish it provided even more detail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

After reading about this court case and watching nearly two seasons of Suits I'm pretty sure I could pass the LSAT¡

I know you're being silly, but television attempts to make some of this stuff far more interesting than it really is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flabber View Post

Look at T-Mobile... they were able to patent the colour magenta which prohibits any other provider in the same business to use that specific colour. So yes, I believe that it cán be patented. But I don't think that a colour should be patentable though. And neither should it be possible to patent "rounded corners".

 

But I dó believe in intellectual property and copyright. Now, if you draw a circle and someone else does the same thing, big boohoo but that happens. But if you deliberately design your phone to have a véry large quantity of similar design elements as the competition… well, that's a whole different ball game. In that case you're deliberately entering someone's area of intellectual property, which is a dangerous area to be in if someone finds out. Drawing a set of shapes in nearly the exact way as the competition (Apple in this case), and then using similar materials and colours on top of that is proof by itself that Samsung is trying to steal some of the thunder that Apple created by doing the same thing.

I'm not sure what that patent was like, how it's distinguished, etc. There would have to be more to it. How is this magenta identified? Are they using a pantone reference? LAB reference value? How is it distinguished? How far does it reach? Is a color variation of  >3  Delta E of the target color or a different pantone shade enough to circumvent this? The thing is design patents should be extremely specific, or they run the justifiable risk of being invalid. In this case I'm not sure if the t-mobile patent was ever challenged, and I'm taking your word that it exists. The argument "stealing our thunder" isn't something that is likely to hold up. As you've seen they had to translate that into something that could  be filed as a lawsuit. I'm still convinced you don't understand your own words on the t-mobile issue.

post #78 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

I know you're being silly, but television attempts to make some of this stuff far more interesting than it really is.

I sure hope so. If TV had the same entertainment value as real life I can't imagine it ever talking off as a medium.

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post #79 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk View Post

 

the employee methodically explained that Palm, Nokia and others had first invented the iPhone‘s most prominent features."

 

 

Your comment is totally useless without a list of the "features" they were referring to.

 

Were they talking about having a web browser, e-mail, MMS or contacts list? Were they talking about icons to represent Apps? If so then of course Apple wasn't first. If they were talking about multitouch gestures, overscroll bounce or other UI features, then Apple was the first.

 

Those are also the features that you can't really advertise. What would be the point in explaining overscroll to a regular customer? Or any of the other small features that combine to make the overall experience better on an iPhone?

post #80 of 142

Nice to see Apple assert some of their QuickTime VR patents.

Never understood why they hadn't sooner.

People act like the street view stuff Google is doing is something new when in fact Apple was pioneering the technology more than a decade before Google released StreetView.

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