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post #41 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Yes we have, and when you repeatedly say things like: "TARP was necessary to stop the bleeding.  I didn't like it, but it was necessary at the time." you are making a statement as if your opinion was a fact. More correctly it would be: "I think/believe TARP was necessary to stop the bleeding."

 

 

 

 

Well, yeah, that, and logic and reason and facts. But we won't let those cloud the discussion.

 

In my opinion it was necessary.  That opinion is based on the facts available to me.  This includes the sheer amount of toxic debt (estimated to be at least $1 Trillion) and number of firms and banks saying they were about to go bankrupt, would have trouble funding their daily operations shortly (even healthy companies with other, non-financial product lines of business, such as GE), or foresaw a strong possibility of one or more of those.  Additionally, a wide array of financial analysts and professionals (governmental and private sector) were predicting the wholesale collapse of the financial system from said toxic debt.  When one looks at how over leveraged and intertwined the system was and is, this is not hard to understand.  AIG, for example, was involved in everything.  We had funds that were insured, with the insurers themselves being reinsured by firms like the aforementioned AIG.  The problem (well, one of them) is that there was no backboard for those reinsurers, who were (and are) woven through the entire economy.  

Your position, if I understand it, is that we don't know any of that would have happened, and that the industry (and government) did not prove to your satisfaction that such action was needed.  That's a perfectly reasonable opinion, though I don't agree with it.  However, given your rejection of essentially any government involvement with the economy whatsoever (and well, all government itself), I think it's also reasonable to surmise that no amount of evidence would convince you.  

 

I do take issue with your comment about lack of logic and reason and facts.  The collapse scenario is entirely logical and reasoned, as I spelled out.  What it is not is proven.  Ultimately, we have reached different conclusions here, which is fine.  But don't go spouting off about my position being illogical or unreasonable, all while offering no factual or logical basis for your own position.   Doing so is somewhat absurd.  

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post #42 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

In my opinion it was necessary.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

But don't go spouting off about my position being illogical or unreasonable, all while offering no factual or logical basis for your own position.

 

In our previous discussion I did offer those things. I was not implying that your position was illogical or unreasoned, per se.

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post #43 of 103

Ryan seen as another Palin by Republican insiders-

 

"Away from the cameras, and with all the usual assurances that people aren’t being quoted by name, there is an unmistakable consensus among Republican operatives in Washington: Romney has taken a risk with Ryan that has only a modest chance of going right — and a huge chance of going horribly wrong."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/79697.html

 

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post #44 of 103

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post #45 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Ryan seen as another Palin by Republican insiders-

 

"Away from the cameras, and with all the usual assurances that people aren’t being quoted by name, there is an unmistakable consensus among Republican operatives in Washington: Romney has taken a risk with Ryan that has only a modest chance of going right — and a huge chance of going horribly wrong."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/79697.html

 

 

That story is absolute bullshit.  It takes dozens of interviews (supposedly) and paraphrases and interprets their remarks to fit a pre-existing narrative.  Politico is not exactly an unbiased source, after all.  I mean, its not like we see things like this:  

 

50% now view Ryan favorably.

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #46 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

 

Perhaps you should explain the gaffe since it appears I've read no reporting on it.

 

If the media was liberally oriented, they would be all over it. A roaring silence on this (and 1000s of other newsworthy items) only tells us what we already know.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #47 of 103
Thread Starter 

Fact Check: Ryan budget plan doesn't actually slash the budget

 

I'm surprised Fox News is actually reporting this, but this is why I say it's ridiculous to call Ryan a "fiscal conservative".

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #48 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Ryan seen as another Palin by Republican insiders-

 

Liberal Jon Stewart, whom you guys cite when it's convenient to you, has harsh words for those using the Democratic 'Ryan is Palin' talking points.

 

But attributing it to Republican insiders is a nice touch.

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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #49 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Fact Check: Ryan budget plan doesn't actually slash the budget

 

I'm surprised Fox News is actually reporting this, but this is why I say it's ridiculous to call Ryan a "fiscal conservative".

 

I read that also.

 

There's definitely a lot of politicking and propagandizing going on.

 

As far as the issue of "fiscal conservative" unfortunately it is not an absolute term. Compared with Obama's budget proposals, this is more fiscally conservative. That much is true.

 

The problem, of course, is that we are continually confronted with what appears to be a choice of a lesser of two evils. This presumes that these are the only two choices and, practically speaking, in the short term, this is probably true.

 

The greater, longer term challenge is to educate people and change their minds so they are wise enough to, either gradually and continually chose the lesser of two evils to a point where we're actually choosing good...or, alternatively, to make a bold change for a third (good) option.

 

This is a big challenge.

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post #50 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Fact Check: Ryan budget plan doesn't actually slash the budget

 

I'm surprised Fox News is actually reporting this, but this is why I say it's ridiculous to call Ryan a "fiscal conservative".

 

And this is the plan Democrats are calling "radical."  Either way, it's the most conservative plan to date.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #51 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

And this is the plan Democrats are calling "radical."  Either way, it's the most conservative plan to date.  

 

No, it's not.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #52 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

No, it's not.

 

Show me another serious plan.  The only one that comes to mind is the Penny Plan.  

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post #53 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Show me another serious plan.

 

I see what you did there. Clever.

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post #54 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

Show me another serious plan.  The only one that comes to mind is the Penny Plan.  

 

Define "serious".

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #55 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Define "serious".

 

Not proposed by a set of clowns in a circus?

 

;-)

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post #56 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Not proposed by a set of clowns in a circus?

 

;-)

 

Well then you have to define "clowns" and "circus".

 

;-)

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #57 of 103

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #58 of 103

 

Exactly.  Romney/Ryan are not saviors, but they are far better than Obama...to say the least.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #59 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

Exactly.  Romney/Ryan are not saviors, but they are far better than Obama...to say the least.  

 

Less scratchy toilet paper = far better?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #60 of 103
Thread Starter 

 

I take information coming out of the Cato institute with a grain of salt, these days.

 

Just search for the term "Cato" on LRC and you'll see why.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #61 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

I take information coming out of the Cato institute with a grain of salt, these days.

 

Just search for the term "Cato" on LRC and you'll see why.

 

I know about that whole soap opera. That said, they still have some useful things to say. Dan Mitchell for example has been a consistent and objective source of good thinking on fiscal and tax issues in particular (it's his area of expertise I believe). I think he made some good points about the relative budgets and the plans (assuming any of it gets implemented as planned and proposed.)

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post #62 of 103
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

I know about that whole soap opera. That said, they still have some useful things to say. Dan Mitchell for example has been a consistent and objective source of good thinking on fiscal and tax issues in particular (it's his area of expertise I believe). I think he made some good points about the relative budgets and the plans (assuming any of it gets implemented as planned and proposed.)

 

True, and I would agree with your assessment of Dan's points. But sadly - and you hinted at this - what is promised during a political campaign is often very different from what actually happens once the politician is in power.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #63 of 103

Paul Ryan and the Real Enemy of Medicare:

 

 

This statement summarizes exactly the issue when speaking with many leftists (and sometimes many on the right also):

 

Quote:
If you are on a pleasant walk and someone comes out of nowhere to demand that you stop and turn around, you may regard him as an unwelcome interloper. Until, that is, you learn that he's saving you from going over a cliff. In that case, you might realize that a real friend is someone who tells you the truth even when it isn't welcome.

 

The typical Leftist will respond to this interloper by angrily declaring they obviously don't like pleasant walks and hate people who take them.

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post #64 of 103

With words like "radical" and "extreme" being liberally flung around, it's probably time to define our terms. After all, vice presidential hopeful Paul Ryan, I am assured, embodies both words in deed and spirit.

 

 

 

Quote:
If a person is to believe his media, he would have to accept that bringing discretionary spending back to 2008 levels, as Ryan has suggested, is like letting a Koch-funded plutocrat in war paint shred the social contract and throw it into a Klan-lit bonfire. Nearly every outlet, every interviewer, every reference about Ryan's plan is imbued with a tone that asks, "Isn't this nuts?"
 
But adding $11 trillion to the national debt, as Obama's proposed budget does, well, that passes the levelheaded policy test. One day, perhaps when fact checkers take a break from crunching every uncompromising decimal point in Ryan's budget proposal, they can explain how Obama's plan is supposed to work and how spending without end ends -- you know, for the kids.

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post #65 of 103
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #66 of 103
Quote:

 

Says Rep. Paul Ryan’s budget "roadmap … doesn't balance the budget until the 2060s and … adds an unthinkable $62 trillion to the national debt between now and then."

Mostly True   ~ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/mar/03/matt-miller/matt-miller-blasts-deficit-debt-implications-paul-/

 

"Ryan is the one who claims his plan is ‘conservative,’" Miller told PolitiFact. "The idea that he runs 62 or 80 or 100 trillion in debt but then pledges to do better when all of us are long dead is silly."
   

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post #67 of 103

Wait a second. I thought that Paul Ryan's budget proposed slashing spending in a way that, well as liberals and Democrats characterize it, would be a disaster on the level of the end of the world.

 

I'm quite confused. It seems leftists want to attack Paul Ryan for slashing the budget and also for not slashing the budget. Odd.

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post #68 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Wait a second. I thought that Paul Ryan's budget proposed slashing spending in a way that, well as liberals and Democrats characterize it, would be a disaster on the level of the end of the world.

 

I'm quite confused. It seems leftists want to attack Paul Ryan for slashing the budget and also for not slashing the budget. Odd.

The thing with Ryan is he wants to make cuts, but he cuts taxes even more, thereby increasing the debt for a very very very long time. He also keeps the needy oil companies et al. with a very expensive roof over their heads. It's easy to cut a few billion from green tech, but when you kneel down to oil, those billions and many more, are still falling from your pockets.

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post #69 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The thing with Ryan is he wants to make cuts, but he cuts taxes even more, thereby increasing the debt for a very very very long time.

 

That's possible. I've not read the proposal in detail. What I have seen is that, even with all that, Obama's budget proposal raises the debt even more. So if this is your concern, you should support Ryan.

 

P.S. I'm sure you realize that these numbers are all bullshit anyway. They are based on a shitload of assumptions and projections about the future that no one really knows about. And it is easy to make each budget look the way you want by adjusting these assumptions. It's a fucking shell game. I'm sure you also realize, if you're reasonably intelligent and informed and honest, that Ryan's budget doesn't actually cut total spending at all. Not one red cent.

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post #70 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

That's possible. I've not read the proposal in detail. What I have seen is that, even with all that, Obama's budget proposal raises the debt even more. So if this is your concern, you should support Ryan.

 

P.S. I'm sure you realize that these numbers are all bullshit anyway. They are based on a shitload of assumptions and projections about the future that no one really knows about. And it is easy to make each budget look the way you want by adjusting these assumptions. It's a fucking shell game. I'm sure you also realize, if you're reasonably intelligent and informed and honest, that Ryan's budget doesn't actually cut total spending at all. Not one red cent.

The reason Ryans plan would add more debt than 62 trillion is the dems would oppose much of the cuts. Add those to the equation with his reduced revenue from taxes (mostly on the very wealthy) and there's no way it wouldn't be more. A few wars and the dire consequences of GW and it's even higher. Then there are other factors too, like you say.

 

Obama hasn't made such a plan, but, Obama/Dems would not run up the debt like Ryan. The Dems plan is to increase the taxes on those earning over $250,000 and reduce military spending and indeed reduce healthcare costs. Those things add up to very significant reductions in the national debt, especially compared to Ryan.

 

Ryan's plan in practice I bet wouldn't cut spending one red cent. DHS and military spending would rise significantly and the negative impacts of poverty and poor education on huge segments of society would put the US at a big disadvantage, not just in global trade but with increased spending on social problems.


Edited by Hands Sandon - 8/16/12 at 3:28pm
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post #71 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The thing with Ryan is he wants to make cuts, but he cuts taxes even more, thereby increasing the debt for a very very very long time. He also keeps the needy oil companies et al. with a very expensive roof over their heads. It's easy to cut a few billion from green tech, but when you kneel down to oil, those billions and many more, are still falling from your pockets.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The reason Ryans plan would add more debt than 62 trillion is the dems would oppose much of the cuts. Add those to the equation with his reduced revenue from taxes (mostly on the very wealthy) and there's no way it wouldn't be more. A few wars and the dire consequences of GW and it's even higher. Then there are other factors too, like you say.

 

Obama hasn't made such a plan, but, Obama/Dems would not run up the debt like Ryan. The Dems plan is to increase the taxes on those earning over $250,000 and reduce military spending and indeed reduce healthcare costs. Those things add up to very significant reductions in the national debt, especially compared to Ryan.

 

Ryan's plan in practice I bet wouldn't cut spending one red cent. DHS and military spending would rise significantly and the negative impacts of poverty and poor education on huge segments of society would put the US at a big disadvantage, not just in global trade but with increased spending on social problems.

 

Your misunderstanding of economics and cognitive dissonance are both laughable.  First of all, cutting taxes does not necessarily incase the deficit, because cutting taxes does not necessarily reduce revenue .  Why lefties cannot get that through their heads is something I just, well, can't get through MY head.  

 

Secondly, you're complaining about deficits?  AYFKM?  Let me ask:  What is the Democratic plan to reduce deficits?  

 

 

 

Quote:
Obama hasn't made such a plan, but, Obama/Dems would not run up the debt like Ryan.

 

How can you post that with a straight face?  We are CURRENTLY racking up over $1 Trillion a year, as in RIGHT NOW.  But let me guess...that's all George Bush's fault, as well as "obstructionist" Republicans.  Fuckin' A.  

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post #72 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Obama hasn't made such a plan, but, Obama/Dems would not run up the debt like Ryan. The Dems plan is to increase the taxes on those earning over $250,000 and reduce military spending and indeed reduce healthcare costs. Those things add up to very significant reductions in the national debt, especially compared to Ryan.

 

You're not serious here are you? Do you really believe any of what you wrote there?! Really?

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post #73 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

You're not serious here are you? Do you really believe any of what you wrote there?! Really?

Very much so. Why don't you?

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post #74 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Very much so. Why don't you?

 

Because it's not true. Because the Democrats have never balanced a budget. Because the so-called savings on healthcare are not going to happen.

 

That's why.

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post #75 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

 

Your misunderstanding of economics and cognitive dissonance are both laughable.  First of all, cutting taxes does not necessarily incase the deficit, because cutting taxes does not necessarily reduce revenue .  Why lefties cannot get that through their heads is something I just, well, can't get through MY head.  

 

Secondly, you're complaining about deficits?  AYFKM?  Let me ask:  What is the Democratic plan to reduce deficits?  

 

 

 

 

How can you post that with a straight face?  We are CURRENTLY racking up over $1 Trillion a year, as in RIGHT NOW.  But let me guess...that's all George Bush's fault, as well as "obstructionist" Republicans.  Fuckin' A.  

You really need to read up on this subject if you want to be taken seriously. Ryan's tax decreases would not generate more than they cost in revenue. Even your own party accepts that. If all you ever do is take an extreme position, just to slag off the opposition, you'll never contribute to a serious discussion on how best to solve these issues. Tax cuts of course stimulate growth in the economy, but not enough. The spending by the government per dollar actually has a greater effect on growth than the equivalent dollar spent in reduced taxes. Target those tax cuts to the very wealthy and the difference is even more stark. Seriously, educate yourself.

 

Obama has increased the debt largely thanks to Bush. 

debt-changes-under-bush-obama.jpg

 

In the longer run Dems need to cut military spending, close nearly all foreign bases and end the war on drugs as we know it. The repubs aren't just warmongers, they're debtmongers too. Be honest SDW, is that really what you want?

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post #76 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The spending by the government per dollar actually has a greater effect on growth than the equivalent dollar spent in reduced taxes.

 

This statement right here indicates that you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Obama has increased the debt largely thanks to Bush.

 

Yeah, yeah we get it. All the good things are to Obama's credit, all the bad things are Bush's fault. You need to stop getting your news from the Obama campaign website.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

In the longer run Dems need to cut military spending, close nearly all foreign bases and ed the war on drugs as we know it.

 

Well I agree that cutting military spending, ending the war on drugs (as well as the other wars) and closing military bases are necessary moves, these things will NOT avoid the economic cliff this country is heading for. To do that the top three spending items (medicare, medicaid and social security) need to be addressed. Anyone that has a brain knows that's what the problem is. It's no big secret. Even the Democrats know this, though they often lie and pretend they don't. 

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post #77 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Because it's not true. Because the Democrats have never balanced a budget. Because the so-called savings on healthcare are not going to happen.

 

That's why.

The savings in comparison to what the government would have paid if Obamacare wasn't introduced are huge. A single payer system will have to be introduced given the rising healthcare cost the insurance companies are charging. The question is, how high does the national debt have to become before it's introduced? INatl_Debt_Chart.jpg

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post #78 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The savings in comparison to what the government would have paid if Obamacare wasn't introduced are huge.

 

As I said, you need to get out and start getting your information from some place other than the Obama campaign website.

 

:rolleyes:

 

God, I sure hope you're not going to be voting in this election.

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post #79 of 103

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post #80 of 103

Check this out-

 

7166568356_79734e57f3_z.jpg

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