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One Samsung exec told company to learn from Apple's iPhone, not copy it

post #1 of 54
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An Apple v. Samsung court document filed on Monday reveals an e-mail in which a top Samsung designer said to "learn through the lessons of the iPhone," not to make replica handsets based on Apple's popular designs.

The internal memo from Samsung designer Sungsik Lee was presented during the cross-examination of Apple expert witness Terry Musika, giving further insight into the South Korean company's efforts in replicating the success of Apple's iPhone, reports CNet.

Dated March 2, 2010, the e-mail was sent to Samsung's "UX (user experience) executives" about a month before one of the devices Apple is asserting trade dress claims against, the Galaxy S smartphone, hit shelves in June. In the note, Lee said that designers should learn from the iPhone's design, but points out future phones should not be replica devices.

From a translated version of Lee's e-mail:

At the Lismore critique meeting yesterday, CEO Gee Sung Choi strongly pointed out Samsung's [user experience] mindset of 'clinging to the past generation. Of course this must be distinguished from saying that we should do something simply because the iPhone did it that way, but [Choi] told us to make judgements based on user convenience, rather than through logical reasoning.


Lee goes on to say that "in the end, we must learn through the lessons of the iPhone that just providing every good feature isn't the way to go about it. Although everyone would agree with this, we would face huge obstacles putting this into practice."

The Samsung executive notes the company should evaluate the iPhone on how the device changed the industry.

"I am not saying to make what is exactly identical to the iPhone, but I am saying to learn the wisdom of the iPhone, and recognize the standard of the industry which was set by them already," Lee said.

Samsung Report
Slide from Samsung's 132-page side-by-side comparison of the iPhone and Galaxy S. | Source: Apple v. Samsung court documents


The e-mail fits into Samsung's "benchmarking" argument, or the alleged standard industry practice of keeping up with the latest features offered by competitors. A related 132-page document entered into court evidence last week shows a comprehensive side-by-side comparison of Apple's iPhone and what would become Samsung's Galaxy S.

Earlier on Monday, Samsung attempted to scrap the entire case after Apple's closing arguments, saying the Cupertino-based company didn't meet its legal burden in asserting trade dress allegations. Presiding Judge Lucy Koh denied the motion, but did allow three international Samsung smartphone variants to be removed from the list of accused devices.

Samsung will begin its defense and is set to present its first witness, Ben Bederson, who will give testimony regarding alleged prior art to Apple's '915 "pinch to zoom" patent.
post #2 of 54
Samsung exec told company to learn from Apple's iPhone, not copy it ... that went well didn't it?
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post #3 of 54
Someone didn't get the memo...
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post #4 of 54

I guess Samscum decided not to listen to their own designers.

post #5 of 54
What I find interesting is the number of internal Samsung documents that appear to show clearly that even Samsung execs agree that Apple revolutionized the smartphone. I wonder how long it will be before their ardent supporters also accept that.
post #6 of 54

This reminds me of the South Park episode where Kyle says to Cartman, "That's not being nice ... that's just wearing a nice sweater,"  To which Cartman confusedly responds, " ... I don't understand the difference."  

 

I think Samsung suffers from the same ethical deficiency ... not being able to understand the difference between "learning" from something, and outright copying.  

 

"That's not 'learning' from Apple and the iPhone ... that's just copying."

 

" ... I don't understand the difference"

post #7 of 54
This has been going on since Japan in the 1960's, Asian companies making replicas of European and American products. Hopefully the courts will punish Samsung so severely no one will do it again. Yes Kia that would mean you need to hire a designer too! Although there is an irony that Kia is ripping off Toyota who ripped off Mercedes and BMW. It's not as if Asians aren't very smart enough ... get out there and innovate for heaven's sake.
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post #8 of 54

So after they told them to go out there and learn from iphone what happened when they brought the designs and products and packaging and icons and featues back ,did they then forget what they told them to do...if thats the best defend then congrates to apple for a nice little win.

post #9 of 54
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post
This has been going on since Japan in the 1960's, Asian companies making replicas of European and American products.

 

Whoop, you're racist now.lol.gif


It's not as if Asians aren't very smart enough ...

 

Nope, you're just trying to save face. lol.gif

post #10 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcasey View Post

So after they told them to go out there and learn from iphone what happened when they brought the designs and products and packaging and icons and featues back ,did they then forget what they told them to do...if thats the best defend then congrates to apple for a nice little win.

Not little. This has to be a big fracking win, so big Samsung bleed all over the floor. Then it's Googles turn. Frankly, IMHO ripping off iOS is far worse than the ripping off of the look and feel of the hardware.
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post #11 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

What I find interesting is the number of internal Samsung documents that appear to show clearly that even Samsung execs agree that Apple revolutionized the smartphone. I wonder how long it will be before their ardent supporters also accept that.

 

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting ...

post #12 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Whoop, you're racist now.lol.gif

Nope, you're just trying to save face. lol.gif

I know you jest but in fact I am not being racist at all, just look at the academic achievement levels in the USA, we are so far behind it is embarrassing and if not for H1B visas our patent levels would be down the tubes. Asians are very clever! I just hate theft of IP, be it Bill Gates, Samsung or Eric Schmitt et al.
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post #13 of 54

Don’t copy Apple. Just “learn" how to do the same thing Apple did, in the same way Apple did it :) A valuable lesson, and not just for UI: it works for hardware design, packaging and accessories too!

post #14 of 54

I'd really like to see the equivalent document from Apple benchmarking...nothing. 

post #15 of 54
Originally Posted by digital clips View Post
…we are so far behind it is embarrassing…

 

Nay, inexcusable.


Originally Posted by nagromme View Post
Don’t copy Apple. Just “learn" how to do the same thing Apple did, in the same way Apple did it.

 

Give your CEO a special project, kick him out, have him start a competing company, tank your own, then buy his company after a few years and put him back in charge?

post #16 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Samsung exec told company to learn from Apple's iPhone, not copy it ... that went well didn't it?

It went very well, Samsung is making money, while the other non copiers are losing money.
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post #17 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Nay, inexcusable.

Give your CEO a special project, kick him out, have him start a competing company, tank your own, then buy his company after a few years and put him back in charge?

Yes on 1 and too funny on 2. I wonder if that will ever happen again in history to the extent it did with SJ.
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post #18 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

It went very well, Samsung is making money, while the other non copiers are losing money.

Yes, well I was referring to the directive not the result. However, it may backfire if justice prevails .... I live in hope.
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post #19 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Yes, well I was referring to the directive not the result. However, it may backfire if justice prevails .... I live in hope.

Some would argue that justice has already somewhat prevailed in the fact that the latest devices from Samsung no longer look like iPhones. I do however agree that their trade dress is still exactly like Apple's.
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post #20 of 54

He only sent the email a month before the product started shipping?  Hmm.  That gives them PLENTY of time to change the product.  Yeah, right.  They probably already went to mfg by the time they got the email.

post #21 of 54

lol.gif Now hiring new executives for Samsung.

Requirements: Excellent oral and written communication skills.

 

Excuse me sir, by "learn", did you mean the same icon style, icon sizes, same fonts and same phisical button locations?

post #22 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


I know you jest but in fact I am not being racist at all, just look at the academic achievement levels in the USA, we are so far behind it is embarrassing and if not for H1B visas our patent levels would be down the tubes. Asians are very clever! I just hate theft of IP, be it Bill Gates, Samsung or Eric Schmitt et al.

All I can do is laugh at you.

Your posts are full of amusing if unintended humor and irony.

post #23 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

An Apple v. Samsung court document filed on Monday reveals an e-mail in which a top Samsung designer said to "learn through the lessons of the iPhone," not to make replica handsets based on Apple's popular designs.
 
 

 

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more....

post #24 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

This has been going on since Japan in the 1960's, Asian companies making replicas of European and American products. Hopefully the courts will punish Samsung so severely no one will do it again. Yes Kia that would mean you need to hire a designer too! Although there is an irony that Kia is ripping off Toyota who ripped off Mercedes and BMW. It's not as if Asians aren't very smart enough ... get out there and innovate for heaven's sake.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


I know you jest but in fact I am not being racist at all, just look at the academic achievement levels in the USA, we are so far behind it is embarrassing and if not for H1B visas our patent levels would be down the tubes. Asians are very clever! I just hate theft of IP, be it Bill Gates, Samsung or Eric Schmitt et al.


Wow, you're actually serious in your reference to "Asians" aren't you?  I'm curious, in your generalizations of Asian people, which asians are your throwing into that pool of humanity?...West Asians, East Asians, Southeast Asians...or is there a specific country you wanted to generalize about...like all Japanese or only Japanese high tech industries?

 

And when you say that "we are so far behind", who the heck is "we"?  Does "we" include mixed white/asians?...or just those that are purely white whose citizenship extends past, say, 3 generations in America?  I'm just wondering, because I'm confused by your use of the word "Asians".  Forgive me because I'm one of the non-Asians whose academic achievements are lacking.

 

digitalclips: seriously?  Are you for real, or were you just being humorous?

post #25 of 54

So samsung produced an email from 2 years ago pertinent to this trial? What happened to the rest of their emails? 

 

Oh right. They destroyed all evidence that didn't support them.

post #26 of 54

Korean translation of "learn from" = "copy"

 

It's very sad. It permeates Korean society.  It's something Americans still do not understand  

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post #27 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by " 


Wow, you're actually serious in your reference to "Asians" aren't you?  I'm curious, in your generalizations of Asian people, which asians are your throwing into that pool of humanity?...West Asians, East Asians, Southeast Asians...or is there a specific country you wanted to generalize about...like all Japanese or only Japanese high tech industries?

And when you say that "we are so far behind", who the heck is "we"?  Does "we" include mixed white/asians?...or just those that are purely white whose citizenship extends past, say, 3 generations in America?  I'm just wondering, because I'm confused by your use of the word "Asians".  Forgive me because I'm one of the non-Asians whose academic achievements are lacking.

digitalclips: seriously?  Are you for real, or were you just being humorous?

drewys808

You are totally correct, I was far too generalized in my comments. It is a very complex subject. Here is some excellent reading on the subject. http://www.uis.unesco.org/Education/Documents/assessing_national_achievement_level_Edu.pdf
Edited by digitalclips - 8/13/12 at 6:53pm
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post #28 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

.... Earlier on Monday, Samsung attempted to scrap the entire case after Apple's closing arguments, saying the Cupertino-based company didn't meet its legal burden ...

 

The case isn't over for a week or more, how can it be after Apple's closing arguments?  

 

The level of writing here is just ridiculously bad.  I mean I know people say it every day, but you people should really be ashamed of yourselves.  There are at least a dozen people who comment here on a regular basis that write better, more insightful, more accurate, and more detailed comments than the authors of the damned articles do.  

post #29 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post

All I can do is laugh at you.
Your posts are full of amusing if unintended humor and irony.

I'm happy I lightened up your day.
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post #30 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

The case isn't over for a week or more, how can it be after Apple's closing arguments?  

 

The level of writing here is just ridiculously bad.  I mean I know people say it every day, but you people should really be ashamed of yourselves.  There are at least a dozen people who comment here on a regular basis that write better, more insightful, more accurate, and more detailed comments than the authors of the damned articles do.  

Apple's case is over.

 

Samsung will now present their counter-suit.

post #31 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak View Post

Korean translation of "learn from" = "copy"

 

It's very sad. It permeates Korean society.  It's something Americans still do not understand  

In nature to mimic is to evolve and survive. In Asian culture they are still surviving under that rule of nature. In western civilization we have adopted a more philosophical meaning of right and wrong in the Greek tradition, I'm not saying that one is right and the other wrong, only that sometimes they may have a different perspective regarding the meaning of the individualism or cultural identity. To copy something that is successful is natural.

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post #32 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


You are totally correct, I was far too generalized in my comments. It is a very complex subject. Here is some excellent reading on the subject. http://www.uis.unesco.org/Education/Documents/assessing_national_achievement_level_Edu.pdf


That was a lazy response that answered none of my questions, but it confirmed that your racist remarks were actually sincere.  How sad.

post #33 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

In nature to mimic is to evolve and survive. In Asian culture they are still surviving under that rule of nature. In western civilization we have adopted a more philosophical meaning of right and wrong in the Greek tradition, I'm not saying that one is right and the other wrong, only that sometimes they may have a different perspective regarding the meaning of the individualism or cultural identity. To copy something that is successful is natural.

I'm not buying that story. We're beyond most species in determining what's right and wrong. To be a caveman watching a monkey crack open a coconut with a rock and mimicking that behavior for survival is one thing.

To be a CEO of a (Korean) company looking at a competitor's product and say "make our product just like theirs" and somehow rationalize that it's some sort of deep-rooted survival instinct, or a cultural thing is hogwash. He's intelligent enough to admit that he's copying something. But no, he feels it better to protect his ego and just downright lie about it than admit in public what he did was wrong.

It irks me when people try to establish psychological, cultural, or in this case, primordial-goo evolution theories to explain what is essentially a guy trying to con Apple. Fess up, pay your dues, and move on Samscum!
post #34 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


I'm not buying that story. We're beyond most species in determining what's right and wrong. To be a caveman watching a monkey crack open a coconut with a rock and mimicking that behavior for survival is one thing.
To be a CEO of a (Korean) company looking at a competitor's product and say "make our product just like theirs" and somehow rationalize that it's some sort of deep-rooted survival instinct, or a cultural thing is hogwash. He's intelligent enough to admit that he's copying something. But no, he feels it better to protect his ego and just downright lie about it than admit in public what he did was wrong.
It irks me when people try to establish psychological, cultural, or in this case, primordial-goo evolution theories to explain what is essentially a guy trying to con Apple. Fess up, pay your dues, and move on Samscum!

I don't disagree with you. I'm predicting they are about to learn a lesson on the world stage. I understand their cultural tendencies but it doesn't mean I give them a pass or justify their actions.

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post #35 of 54

"Good artists copies, great artists steal."  Western society stole from Eastern societies a lot back in the day, but that's okay, no one cares, because its is to the benefit of the West, just like how Whale hunting was all fine and dandy when the Western world was exploiting that resource and hunting them to extinction.  

post #36 of 54

BTW, Kia did hire a designer, Peter Schreyer, who designed the Audi TT (1998), A6 (1998), A3 (1996), VW New Beetle (1998), VW Golf (1998), among others.  Samsung should learn from Kia.

 

 

 

post #37 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebe1 View Post

BTW, Kia did hire a designer, Peter Schreyer, who designed the Audi TT (1998), A6 (1998), A3 (1996), VW New Beetle (1998), VW Golf (1998), among others.  Samsung should learn from Kia.

 

 

 

 

Well, they hired this guy:

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/chris-bangle-to-design-samsung-phones-and-laptops-32720.html

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post #38 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Samsung exec told company to learn from Apple's iPhone, not copy it ... that went well didn't it?
This almost seems like a warning that they were copying the iPhone too much already, and that they need to back off a little. You can just about read this as an admission of guilt. If I were Samsung's lawyers, I wouldn't have told this.

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post #39 of 54
Hindsight is a useful weapon in court. Unless, that is, the judge is not an idiot.

Please bear in mind that Apple has not been allowed to discover a major portion of the supporting documentation that would deny Samsung their story. The lack of email server evidence is major. I wonder if the server backups were destroyed too.

There are now two major points that Samsung is trying to make that could have been verified (or torn down) if email records were available.

(1) F700 was an independent development with some features in common with the iPhone.
(2) A designer once offered the opinion that Samsung should not directly copy the iPhone.

What both of these issues have in common is that they are cherry-picked to support Samsung and they both lack context.

It would be interesting to find out how many of the common design points that the F700 shared with Apple were discoverable from Apple parts already sourced from Samsung manufacturing at the time. It is probably a good thing for Samsung that the F700 argument is not being allowed into court as, from what I can see, all of the common features claimed as independent design by Samsung could have been derived from parts Apple likely had Samsung make. Overall dimension, outline, ear-slit etc. Was Samsung manufacturing iPhone screens at the time?

There is also the issue of what other internal prototypes did Samsung have in the works at the same time. What was their design theme? Samsung have cherry-picked an outlier design to make their case and in doing so have highlighted the likelihood that Apple design-values/formats were (and probably still are) being leaked internally from manufacturing. Bringing that up as evidence of independent design - that shows *real* contempt. Good thing point #1 above has been made moot by the judge.

Point #2 indicates that there was an email from a designer hoping that Samsung could do more than merely copy the iPhone. So what? In the absence of full context i.e. the other emails that made up any discussion of this issue, it is impossible to tell if this designer was listened to, sidelined, backed, put-off. Where is the email chain? Oh, that's right, nothing server-based is available. Can't do much with email sequence numbers to verify that this email is even real without a server dump (or, perhaps, server archives of the time). The email has little more relevance than heresay. Now Apple will have to get that designer on the stand to have him/her explain what was meant. An interesting question might be "why was the designer so worried about Samsung merely copying Apple that it warranted an internal email dialog". Warning of the issue does not defuse it. Did the designer contribute to the subsequently produced Samsung phones? Is that designer even still at the company and if not, why not?

Enquiring minds want to know... Must order more popcorn.
post #40 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

 

Well, they hired this guy:

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/chris-bangle-to-design-samsung-phones-and-laptops-32720.html

 

I mean, hire a guy that's good at designing :)

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