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Judge says 'it's time for peace,' asks Apple and Samsung CEOs to discuss settlement - Page 3

post #81 of 97

Interesting trial.   Hang in there Judge Koh, what a tough gig.  I think she is right on this one, it would be ideal for companies to get along, decide what is fair on their own, and compete.  With that being fairly unlikely, 'there are risks for both sides' is pretty ominous because despite the certainty of the android fans on android sites, and despite the certainty of Apple fans on Apple sites- both sides have presented substantial evidence which is going to leave them with a lot riding on the decision of the jury.

 

Samsung worst case:

    Samsung found guilty on all counts.  Judge accepts Apple's $2.75 billion valuation.  Judge triples damages for wilfull infringement- $8.25billion.  Apple has convincing verdict and sues Samsung across globe in other markets and international courts for years to come.

 

Likelihood?  Near 0 percent.  Wilfull infringement is exceptionally difficult to prove.  Samsung did have multiple designs similar to the iPhone prior to the iPhone as well as many that were very different.  They'll argue their evolution followed Darwinian theory.  Of their many designs, the phones that were best at 'surviving' in the market were the simpler designs with only a few buttons, and that process of evolution led to designs that more resembled their final product.  Those were the designs that were selling well in the market, the other designs went extinct.

 

More likely scenario in Apples favor:

    Samsung found guilty.  Samsung appeals decision.  Regardless of decision appeal, Samsung also challenges damages.  Basis for the low end $2.5 Apple valuation will be questioned (and is obviously \ skewed in Apples favor since Apples lawyers calculated it).  Lower basis will be presented and then premises will also be challenged.  First off, the premise that all Samsung phones sold result in a loss of an Apple sale.  Fairly damning evidence against Apple in the trial.  International phones have already been thrown off the list.  Not sure what that percentage is but it should be fairly small.  If you have data hop in and share, but I'll say that $2.5b goes to $2.3b with those thrown out.  Now factor in Apples own market research presented in the trial.  Top reason cited by Apple for consumers choosing a Samsung phone instead of an iPhone?  (Something over 30%?) "I wanted to stay with my carrier"  Ouch for Apple.  Apple had an exclusive arrangement with AT&T for many of the infringing devices for extensive periods.  Those consumers *COULD NOT HAVE PURCHASED* an iPhone and kept their distinguishing feature.  Throw all phones out that were not sold under an AT&T network plan (those phones still infringe Apples patents and warrant punitive damages, but nowhere near the damages of a 'lost sale').  Second most prevalent reason for choosing a Samsung over on iPhone in Apple's study? (Around 30%) "I wanted a bigger screen"  Apple did not offer a phone with a bigger screen.  No lost sales there.  Throw out the phones with anything other than a 3.5" screen.  Right or wrong isn't the point, the point is that $2.5billion is going to get whittled away substantially, and even then won't get paid for several years until the decision appeal process is complete.

 

Samsung's best case:

Apple loses.  Verdict is Samsung phones followed path of evolution and ended up similar to iPhone because that simply is what was selling in the market.  Apple loses 'Pinch to Zoom' patent and 'bounceback' patent.  This may be a real possibility and the judge suggesting the sides 'narrow their scope' may be a sign that Apple should consider withdrawing one or both of these patents.  Prior art alone is sufficient to overturn a patent.  What is even more damaging to Apple in this case is that not only is there evidence of prior art (should the jury decide it is sufficient), but there is also proof that that very prior art was demonstrated to Apple before/during the iPhone design.  So it looks very much like Apple saw the demonstration, said 'Wow, that's awesome!  We need to implement that in our phone!'  and instead of buying the company and/or technology, Steve Jobs excercised his right as a 'Great Artist' and stole the technology and patented it.  Salt on the wound should the patents be overturned is that the actual inventor (Mitsubishi?) will likely file for the rightful patent and Apple (as well as Samsung) will be forced to pay royalties on pinch to zoom and bounceback should they choose to continue to use them in future phones (anything to date will be exempt since there was no valid patent on them).

Likelihood of this outcome?  Not likely, but also far greater than 0%.   Apple would of course appeal the decision of Samsungs guilt, but it would be very, very unlikely for any scenario to play out where they get their invalidated patents restored.  This outcome would also be the 'shot heard around the world' in terms of rampant litigating for all companies (not just Apple).

 

 

So I think Judge Koh nailed it.  "Guys, really, play nice and figure this out on your own," is a good solution and great advice.  I think even she realizes it is unlikely.


Edited by Frood - 8/16/12 at 7:17am
post #82 of 97
Originally Posted by zorinlynx View Post
A sales ban may be a win for Apple but it will be a loss for all of us.

 

Completely wrong. It will force everyone else to actually compete.


Competition is what keeps companies on their toes coming up with new awesome stuff. 

 

And there isn't any right now. Competition, that is. Apple makes awesome stuff.

 

They should just cross-license and stop acting like bickering five year olds. And get back to work making great products.
 

Trolls should just give up and stop parroting the same crap, too. 

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #83 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorinlynx View Post

A sales ban may be a win for Apple but it will be a loss for all of us.

 

 

Why? There are hundreds of other Android devices to choose from. Most of them look and function the same. That's the beauty of universal licensing. Lots of the same crap. You can jump from one to the other without missing a beat. 

 

And this case IS NOT about consumers. It has NOTHING to do with consumers. It's all about the intellectual property rights of companies. Our rights don't have anything to do with this, nor should they. 

 

As for innovation, there will always be those who can innovate around patents and change the game. Everyone had the opportunity to pull off a June 2007 and a January 2010, same as Apple. Maybe it's time the also-rans put aside their laziness. "Me-too" products that come from knee-jerk reactions to changing market dynamics just won't cut it anymore. 

post #84 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drax7 View Post

A. Korean judge, wtf is wrong with this case, when apple cannot prove the most obvious .


What is with some of you guys. By the same logic a Caucasian judge would be biased in favor of Apple.

 

Also keep in mind the verdict is still a trial by jury, even if judges do have quite a lot of influence.

post #85 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post


What is with some of you guys. You're complete racist trash. By the same logic a Caucasian judge would be biased in favor of Apple.

 

Also keep in mind the verdict is still a trial by jury, even if judges do have quite a lot of influence.

Well to be fair, this is a JURY trial, so I don't see the Judge having THAT much influence, apart of course from refusing evidence that either side would want based on her whim and fancy. 

 

and by the way, who are they fooling? REGARDLESS of which side wins the thing we can be sure about IS AN APPEAL. 

 

So whoever wins, this is FAR from over. 

post #86 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepy3 View Post

Well to be fair, this is a JURY trial, so I don't see the Judge having THAT much influence, apart of course from refusing evidence that either side would want based on her whim and fancy. 

 

and by the way, who are they fooling? REGARDLESS of which side wins the thing we can be sure about IS AN APPEAL. 

 

So whoever wins, this is FAR from over. 


I agree with you. This won't end anytime soon. Judges can have quite a bit of influence. My issue was that the comment over the race of the Judge had absolutely no basis. We aren't talking about the niece of Samsung's CEO or something like that. We're also not talking about someone who is on Apple's payroll. The problem is you can make up a story for anything, but taking issue with a US judge of Korean descent says more about the bias of the person posting that kind of garbage than it does about the judge.

post #87 of 97

The judge knows that there are too much prior art coming out that Apple wont be able to win this lawsuit. Therefore, in order to collect her paycheck and favor the local party, she is indirectly urging Apple to cut its losses and public image and settle out of court.
 

"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #88 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredumb View Post

 

So, your contention is that Samsung already had these ideas because their teams reported thinking of them in the latter half of 2006, barely ahead of an actual completed product introduced in January 2007 and sold in June 2007? (which Jobs said he had been waiting to introduce for 2 1/2 years at that time)

 

If anything, your illustrations show that a company (Samsung), working on a phone, altered its design and features ideas about the time they might have become privy to details of Apple's impending finished product...uh, that's copying.  

 

You seem not to have presented "any evidence that might work against Apple".

 

When did they receive contracts for Apple components?  Might that have contributed to these supposed ideas?

Someone out there who _isn't_ a troll must know...?


You have no proof that Samsung had any Apple's design knowledge of the iPhone.

 

According to Forestall, his team had iron clad secrecy regarding the matter.

 

Hence, Samsung would not have any knowledge of the design.

 

Therefore, your argument goes out that window, yes the one on your left.

"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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"Like I said before, share price will dip into the $400."  - 11/21/12 by Galbi

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post #89 of 97
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post
The judge knows that there are too much prior art coming out that Apple wont be able to win this lawsuit.

 

*snort*

 

Also, it's not for her to say. That's what the jury is for.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #90 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

TheVerge ran an article today detailing some testimony from yesterday. Tho not a big deal if it happens and not affecting the overall suit that much ...

 

 

some reports suggest the context of the "it's time for peace" quote may have stemmed from Andries van Dam's testimony.
 
 
===
 
"Apple will argue that DiamondTouch and the other prior art--van Dam also pointed out the Launch Tile application on the HP iPaq handheld device as using snap back in its user interface--do not achieve the same effects of snap back on the iPhone and iPad. But the fact that knowledge of snap back was prevalent at the time Apple applied for exclusive ownership of the feature may be more difficult to explain away.
 
Judge Lucy Koh may have had that in mind when she warned, "There is risk to both sides, if this case goes to verdict." She urged the two sets of attorneys to call on the CEOs of both companies to meet to try to resolve their differences one more time before she has to issue instructions to the jury, likely to happen after closing arguments next Tuesday."
 
===
 
for the sake of article length and editorial deadlines i'm sure we're not getting the whole picture so we'll have to see how van Dam's testimony along with everything else we know (and don't know) will play out for the jury.
 
side note: Andries van Dam is the co-author of one of my favorite and seminal books on computer graphics
post #91 of 97

LOL!!

 

Fromm TheVerge:

Judge Lucy Koh has been going increasingly terse with both Apple and Samsung as the trial continues, and she just let Apple have it after receiving a 75-page briefing. The document covered 22 potential rebuttal witnesses the company might want to call after Samsung finishes presenting its case. With the jury out of the courtroom, Koh laid into Apple, asking why it would present such a lengthy document "when unless you're smoking crack you know these witnesses aren't going to be called!"

 

http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/16/3247092/judge-to-apple-youre-smoking-crack

melior diabolus quem scies
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melior diabolus quem scies
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post #92 of 97

So all she cares about is the schedule, not the truth. Got it.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply
post #93 of 97

You're half-right.  BOTH the patent system AND the legal system are either broken, bought, or both.  Listen to When Patents Attack by This American Life and educate yourself to how screwed up the system is.


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/441/when-patents-attack

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uplift Humanity View Post

It's a sad state of affairs when multinational corporations willfully infringe on/steal the work of others, knowing they will only have to spend a few million on legal costs -- instead of hundreds of millions for innovating/inventing.
The patent system is not broken. The legal system is broken. These days, winning requires only:
(1) a large legal team
(2) paid-for "experts" who will say what you want
(3) people willing to shred evidence, disregard court edicts -- knowing they won't be reprimanded
(4) the ability to obfuscate issues and juries
It's clear Samsung infringed on Apple's prior IP. They should be found guilty, and have punitive damages also imposed on them. When crime "pays", it will continue.
post #94 of 97
There is a slight problem with all of this. In Britain, because Apple ignored a judgement as if it never happened Apple have to headline on their front page for 6 months "Samsung did not copy Apple'". So if we get different judgements depending on which country we are in this could end up as a trade war.
post #95 of 97
Originally Posted by aBeliefSystem View Post
…Apple have to headline on their front page for 6 months "Samsung did not copy Apple'".

 

That (ruling) isn't yet a certainty, and it's (wording) a blatant lie in the first place.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply
post #96 of 97
I'm not sure what the situation is but it is quite apparent that it was done to try to halt Apple's tribalism. This is surely there now haunting Koh.
post #97 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galbi View Post


You have no proof that Samsung had any Apple's design knowledge of the iPhone.

According to Forestall, his team had iron clad secrecy regarding the matter.

Hence, Samsung would not have any knowledge of the design.

Therefore, your argument goes out that window, yes the one on your left.

Really?

No one could ever possibly have any rumors of what an Apple product would look like. It's just impossible to comprehend that sites like MacRumors or AppleInsider or any of 100 other rumors sites would ever discuss an unreleased Apple product. /s

In reality, Apple's product design was fairly well described (and even displayed) in the media for many months before the iPhone or iPad were released.

But it really doesn't matter. While Samsung was working on the Tab before the iPad was released, as soon as the iPad came out they scrapped all that work and modified the product so that it looked exactly like an iPad - so closely that their attorneys couldn't tell the difference and the public is easily confused by Samsung's own evidence.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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