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Apple, Samsung rest cases in patent trial as testimony phase wraps up - Page 2

post #41 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumpels View Post

I just hope that history doesn't repeat itself again. Remember the legal battles between Apple and Microsoft for user interface back when Microsoft brought Windows? That ended badly for Apple and it took Apple years to reinvent itself. I really hope that it doesn't happen again with Samsung.

One big difference in this case is that Apple outsells Samsung in the mobile space by nearly the same ratio as Microsoft outsold Apple in the desktop space. Samsung products also don't undercut Apple significantly. Not only this, Apple is the most valuable company in the world just now vs being on the verge of bankruptcy.

The situation is very different this time round. Combined Android phones from multiple manufacturers aren't even outselling Apple 2:1 so the Android/iOS overall marketshare will stay very close for a long time and Apple will take the majority of the profit.

Even if the worst case happened and Apple had to pay for Samsung's patents and got nothing in return, they will still be the most valuable company in the world and still outsell Samsung by a massive ratio. I can't see how that outcome would be possible though when you look at what Samsung has done. Apple will also cut contracts with Samsung so it severely affects their profits.

If Apple doesn't receive some damages, this trial will suggest that deliberate, planned plagiarism is acceptable in the electronics industry and sets a bad example going forward.
post #42 of 64
I know for a fact, that Samsung copied Apple's design in tablets and Galaxy smartphones. Does Judge Koh know that? I don't know. If she doesn't she at least has to know that the Galaxy Tab stole the iPad's design. AT LEAST!

 

 


Tim Cook using Galaxy Tabs as frisbees

 

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post #43 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

One big difference in this case is that Apple outsells Samsung in the mobile space by nearly the same ratio as Microsoft outsold Apple in the desktop space.

What the heck are you talking about?

Microsoft outsold Apple in the desktop space by 10:1.

Apple most certainly does not outsell Samsung in the mobile space by 10:1. In fact, Samsung actually claims to sell more units than Apple.
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post #44 of 64
It seems like only yesterday when I posted that Apple's "purple" and other prototypes from as far back as 2005 should put an end to people claiming Apple was inspired by the Prada or F700.

I see I was wrong and stupidity appears to still be behind many comments.

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post #45 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumpels View Post

I just hope that history doesn't repeat itself again. Remember the legal battles between Apple and Microsoft for user interface back when Microsoft brought Windows? That ended badly for Apple and it took Apple years to reinvent itself. I really hope that it doesn't happen again with Samsung.

Apples reinvention was less to do with Microsoft and more to do with overall bad management decisions about what tech to develop and how

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post #46 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
Microsoft outsold Apple in the desktop space by 10:1.

Apple most certainly does not outsell Samsung in the mobile space by 10:1. In fact, Samsung actually claims to sell more units than Apple.

Samsung claims their total sales for Galaxy S and S2 are 50 million:

http://www.androidauthority.com/galaxy-s-galaxy-s2-note-sales-records-91660/

Apple has sold 250 million iPhones. You're right it's not 10:1 if the figures are accurate and they have other smartphones but the recent trial has shown that Samsung lies about their figures:

http://www.macgasm.net/2012/08/10/looks-like-samsung-pretty-much-lied-about-us-sales-to-the-public/

Even if Apple and Samsung were on level ground in terms of new sales and not overall marketshare, it's still a million miles away from Apple vs Microsoft.
post #47 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Samsung claims their total sales for Galaxy S and S2 are 50 million:
http://www.androidauthority.com/galaxy-s-galaxy-s2-note-sales-records-91660/

Why are you comparing only S and S2? Your original statement was "One big difference in this case is that Apple outsells Samsung in the mobile space by nearly the same ratio as Microsoft outsold Apple in the desktop space."

Unless the S and S2 are all of 'mobile space', you're way off base.

In fact, according to published reports, Samsung sells more phones than Apple - by a pretty substantial margin. And that's from a variety of sources, not just Samsung (which, as you've pointed out, isn't very honest in their sales figures).

Your claim is outright false. MIcrosoft outsold Apple by 10:1 or so. Apple did not outsell Samsung by 10:1 or even 2:1 or even 1.01:1. Samsung sold more phones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Apple has sold 250 million iPhones. You're right it's not 10:1 if the figures are accurate and they have other smartphones but the recent trial has shown that Samsung lies about their figures:
http://www.macgasm.net/2012/08/10/looks-like-samsung-pretty-much-lied-about-us-sales-to-the-public/
Even if Apple and Samsung were on level ground in terms of new sales and not overall marketshare, it's still a million miles away from Apple vs Microsoft.

If it's a million miles away from Apple vs Microsoft, why did you claim that Apple outsells Samsung by nearly the same ratio as Microsoft outsold Apple?

BTW, I wonder how long it's going to be before the shareholder suits against Samsung start due to the above misinformation.
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post #48 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
In fact, according to published reports, Samsung sells more phones than Apple - by a pretty substantial margin.

Yeah, it looks like they are outselling them, I didn't think Samsung was selling so many:

http://www.juniperresearch.com/analyst-xpress-blog/2012/05/02/smartphones-there’s-plenty-of-space-outside-the-galaxy-for-the-next-billion-and-a-bit/

The total appears to be 150 million, which would put Apple's total marketshare vs Samsung at 1.6:1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
If it's a million miles away from Apple vs Microsoft, why did you claim that Apple outsells Samsung by nearly the same ratio as Microsoft outsold Apple?

10:1 (Microsoft:Apple) would be a million miles away from 1:10 (Samsung:Apple) where Apple is on the opposite side of the comparison but I accept that it's somewhere between 1:1 (Samsung:Apple) and 1:5 (Samsung:Apple) and I still consider that a million miles away from 10:1. The profit share alone is enough to assert that this is nothing like Microsoft vs Apple.
post #49 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Yeah, it looks like they are outselling them, I didn't think Samsung was selling so many:
http://www.juniperresearch.com/analyst-xpress-blog/2012/05/02/smartphones-there’s-plenty-of-space-outside-the-galaxy-for-the-next-billion-and-a-bit/
The total appears to be 150 million, which would put Apple's total marketshare vs Samsung at 1.6:1.
10:1 (Microsoft:Apple) would be a million miles away from 1:10 (Samsung:Apple) where Apple is on the opposite side of the comparison but I accept that it's somewhere between 1:1 (Samsung:Apple) and 1:5 (Samsung:Apple) and I still consider that a million miles away from 10:1. The profit share alone is enough to assert that this is nothing like Microsoft vs Apple.

None of which changes the fact that both your logic and your 'facts' are wrong.

Apple does not outsell Samsung by the same amount that Microsoft outsold Apple - not even close.
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post #50 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by 845032 View Post

 

 

Sorry, Samsung is different to Apple's design patent.

 

Yeah, let's compare the S1 not to the original iPhone, but to the iPhone 4, something that is utterly irrelevant and has nothing to do with trial. I love the lengths trolls go in deception, hypocrisy, cognitive dissonance, and dishonesty in order to 'make their point'.  Maybe if Samsung had just stuck with knocking off the icons, or the hardware, instead of going all out and aping the UI, hardware, packaging, cables, accessories, etc. in such a slavish way, they wouldn't have forced Apple's hand. You can dig up ridiculous, irrelevant comparisons all you want, it wont change that fact. The prada and F700 are nothing like an iPhone. Apple has shown that it had prototypes in 2005 for the iPhone that resembled it infinitely more than these phones do, which have almost nothing in common either in hardware or software. Apple's prototypes have proven that they nailed down the basic look much before any of these irrelevant phone in either case, and they

re proof that they took no inspiration from them. 

post #51 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berp View Post

 
You can feel Google's presence and counsel in this trial.
The Google/Samsung defense partnership extends I suspect from 'willful destruction of evidence' to systematic procedural obstruction over the instructing of a fair and comprehensive trial. Google is Samsung's enabler. Samsung is Google's enforcer. And Google has massive clout, witness their reluctance to expose...as required by the tribunal in Google vs Oracle...the extent of their linkage to bloggers, journalists, academics, and opinion makers. They can turn truth on its head by power-playing their hoard of data on decision makers. They lobby from a leverage position.
 

 

I don't see the invisible hand of Google behind any of it. Do you have any solid evidence for that? Or are you are merely speculating?

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post #52 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

 

 

Microsoft didn't need to reverse the Mac OS. Jobs trusted Microsoft to develop Office software for the Mac. Microsoft had internal access to the working of the Mac. 

 

Steve: "Ok, here's the iPhone prototype."

Eric: (thinly smiling through chubby cheeks) "You can trust me, Google is not in the business of making phones."

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post #53 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

 

I don't see the invisible hand of Google behind any of it. Do you have any solid evidence for that? Or are you are merely speculating?

 

Quinn Emanuel, Google's lawyers are also representing Samsung and HTC...

 

...but that's just coincidence, right?

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post #54 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by 845032 View Post

Sorry, Samsung is different to Apple's design patent.

Why do you keep using the iPhone 4 design in your comparison photos? Oh! I know! Because you don't know anything about this case nor about the law which applies. You're just another armchair "lawyer" hack who thinks you can bring your own thinking process to it. Of course, your thinking process starts with "Samsung didn't copy Apple" and then ends.

post #55 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Steve: "Ok, here's the iPhone prototype."
Eric: (thinly smiling through chubby cheeks) "You can trust me, Google is not in the business of making phones."

And, ultimately, that appears to be at the heart of Jobs' decision to go thermonuclear. Jobs felt that he had been betrayed on a personal level as well as a corporate level and he wasn't one to take betrayal in stride.
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post #56 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
None of which changes the fact that both your logic and your 'facts' are wrong.

Even knowing that the ratios of new sales are different, I don't see how that changes the conclusion. Samsung is not outselling Apple 10:1 and not even close so the conclusion is the same, that this is nothing like Apple vs Microsoft.

Even despite Samsung's steep increase in their share of new sales by clearly taking Nokia's customers:



Apple has still sold a lot more smartphones overall.

Apple has also sold 34 million iPads and Samsung has sold 1.4 million Tabs in the US. 84 million iPads worldwide vs 2.3 million Tabs.

Given that this is hardware vs hardware, a better comparison for Apple vs Samsung would be Apple vs HP and Apple vs Microsoft would be Apple vs Google. Samsung might well become the HP of the smartphone market but a 90% share is highly unlikely and the same goes for Android.
post #57 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Even knowing that the ratios of new sales are different, I don't see how that changes the conclusion. Samsung is not outselling Apple 10:1 and not even close so the conclusion is the same, that this is nothing like Apple vs Microsoft.

While I agree that it's nothing like Apple v Microsoft, I was simply objecting to your silly logic. First, your facts were grossly incorrect (claiming Samsung outsold Apple by 10:1). Second, your logic is seriously flawed - the merits of the case have absolutely nothing to do with how much each side sold.

Your conclusion was correct, but not the facts, reasoning or logic. It's as if you said "the sun will probably rise tomorrow morning because the cow jumped over the moon".
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post #58 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
claiming Samsung outsold Apple by 10:1

I was saying Apple outsold Samsung at a ratio close to 9:1, a ratio they greatly exceed on the tablet side but it seems not nearly so close in smartphones since Samsung apparently makes up half of all Android smartphone sales. There's something not right with Samsung's figures though:

http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-samsungs-us-smartphone-sales-are-shockingly-small-2012-8

That article is claiming that only 4% of Samsung's worldwide sales were in the US. The graphs in the following article at the bottom show shares of iPhones vs Samsung's product range in the US:

http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-and-samsung-just-revealed-their-exact-us-sales-figures-for-the-first-ever-time-2012-8

Apple is doing ok in the East (17% vs 19% for Samsung) so where are Samsung's sales coming from?:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/16/us-china-smartphones-idUSBRE87E15320120816
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta 
Second, your logic is seriously flawed - the merits of the case have absolutely nothing to do with how much each side sold.

Your conclusion was correct, but not the facts, reasoning or logic. It's as if you said "the sun will probably rise tomorrow morning because the cow jumped over the moon".

In order for the situation to arise where Samsung takes around 90% of the smartphone market leaving Apple under 10% or realistically their respective shares are in that ratio (there are too many players for it to split 9:1 between the two), the amount they've sold is relevant because at some stage they have to convince owners of other handsets to switch.

Will a signficant portion of the 250 million iPhone owners switch to a Samsung device? Doubtful.

New sales are relevant because that shows how quickly users will adopt each manufacturer's products.

Given how successful Apple has been so far and the rate of sales they have at present, I reached the conclusion that they won't suffer the same fate in the phone industry that they have in the desktop industry. As long as they keep a model on the low-end, they should be able to maintain a significant share even as owners of dumbphones migrate to smartphones.

I could see Samsung squeezing all other Android phones down in share because they make the best Android phones and Nokia will be wiped out entirely but Nokia users will migrate to both Apple and Samsung products. As I say, Samsung is still playing catch-up to Apple's userbase.
post #59 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I was saying Apple outsold Samsung at a ratio close to 9:1,

And no matter how many times you repeat this, it's still wrong.
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post #60 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post

The Prada phone was clearly an inspiration for Apple to draw upon. Very few products are created in a vacuum, they're all built upon what came before them, and we all benefit from this gradual development. Android was built upon the advances made in iOS, and now iOS is taking Android developments and incorporating them. It's a two way street, and that's perfectly fine.

 

So you mean you can produce fully working production model (not alfa class shit) in 1 month from an announcement of a product. WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING MAN???!!!! STOP THAT ILLEGAL ACTIVITY IMMEDIATELY!!!

post #61 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Given how successful Apple has been so far and the rate of sales they have at present, I reached the conclusion that they won't suffer the same fate in the phone industry that they have in the desktop industry. As long as they keep a model on the low-end, they should be able to maintain a significant share even as owners of dumbphones migrate to smartphones.
I could see Samsung squeezing all other Android phones down in share because they make the best Android phones and Nokia will be wiped out entirely but Nokia users will migrate to both Apple and Samsung products. As I say, Samsung is still playing catch-up to Apple's userbase.

 

 

But eg the 3GS was only sold in the states NOT eg Europe (it hasnt been sold for about one year now). So Apple doesnt sell low-end model at all in the rest of the world.

post #62 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by habi View Post

 

 

But eg the 3GS was only sold in the states NOT eg Europe (it hasnt been sold for about one year now). So Apple doesnt sell low-end model at all in the rest of the world.


Not true

post #63 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


And, ultimately, that appears to be at the heart of Jobs' decision to go thermonuclear. Jobs felt that he had been betrayed on a personal level as well as a corporate level and he wasn't one to take betrayal in stride.


There is a difference between what Samsung and Google did.

 

Even if Apple owned all touchscreen patents (which it does not), it would be unrealistic to expect no one else on earth can ever make all-touchscreen smartphones. No more that it could have prevented GUI and windows to be adopted by non-Apple computers.

 

But it would be reasonable to expect touchscreen phones could be designed to be distinct from iPhones. This is where Samsung seriously over-stepped.

post #64 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by habi View Post

 

 

But eg the 3GS was only sold in the states NOT eg Europe (it hasnt been sold for about one year now). So Apple doesnt sell low-end model at all in the rest of the world.

Off-topic of course, that's not true at all. India immediately comes to mind as an ongoing market for Apple's 3GS. Further, Apple themselves have reportedly decided to position the 3GS for the "bargain-shopper" pre-paid market.

 

http://www.tuaw.com/2012/05/21/apple-to-seek-new-life-for-iphone-3gs-in-emerging-markets/

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