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Jury likely to decide Apple and Samsung case as parties fail to narrow dispute - Page 3

post #81 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

As seen with Apple settlement with Nokia, Apple is willing to agree to reasonable licensing terms for standard essential patents. It, however, isn't going to be discriminated against merely because it sells a lot of product.

That is the D in FRAND. And a lawsuit is the only way to get the facts to prove the argument since licenses are not public info.

It seems to me that the solution is that when a standard is created a neutral licensing office is created that isn't under the control of any of the member companies. That office handles the paperwork for a preset licensing scheme that is the same for all parties and pays the member parties their cut based on how many of their patents are being used etc.

Either that or much restricter rules about what values can be used to set a rate, who pays when it's things like a 3G antenna chip and so on.

Or even perhaps both

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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post #82 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I don't think they'll be hung but I do agree that this had to be a stressful case. From their PoV I'd think it would switch to petty claims of "look and feel" to overly dry technical details.

I dont think they will be hung either, I think that apple will win the bulk of there case while loosing some things to samsung, say something like 70% rulings in favor of apple and 30% samsung even though from the evidence i have seen samsung deserves to have there head handed to them on a silver platter.

post #83 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing View Post

Shouldn't the moderators job be to make sure everything runs well in the forums and not to constantly post their opinions in the forums?  .

Last I checked this wasn't the 'discuss what the job of a forum moderator is' thread.

So perhaps we could stick to the topic and you can debate what you think the rules should be etc on its own thread.

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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post #84 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

i have a lot of apple stuff at home but there were lots of candy bar style phones out before the iphone. samsung entered like 10 of them into evidence,

Doesn't mean they pass the legal tests for prior art. Especially on terms of the specifics of the patent. And specifics are very important. You can have two things that are 99.9% the same but on that last detail they are different and thus legally there is no violation. Many parallel developed tech come down to that notion. Looks the same to the user but is implemented a different way and the implementation is specified in the patent. So it was two folks with the same idea at the same time, but no violation. Many of the ideas that Apple 'steals' are this game.

You mention candy bar phones. I had one. A Nokia. Had a grid of icons on a little screen above the keypad. Is that prior art. Likely not since I didn't touch that grid to select one but used an arrow key on the keypad. Some of the phones Samsung submitted could come down to the same thing and the jury will likely say no they aren't prior art for Apple's 'specific' patent

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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post #85 of 156
The old mobile phone companies, like Motorola, Nokia and Samsung, have lots of patents on phone and network technology. These patents are mostly standards-essential, meaning the patent holders have committed to licencing out to all comers, including Apple.

The new mobile phone company, Apple, has patents on computer technology relating to operating system, functionalities and applications. These patents are mostly private and unique to Apple, which licences them out in its sole discretion and on a commercial and strategic basis.

Obviously, the old mobile phone companies are endlessly p****d *ff by having to let Apple get THEIR phone and network patents, while Apple at the same time mostly refuses to licence out its private computer software patents.

Apple seeks to protect and preserve the uniqueness of its products, mostly related to private non-standards computer software patents.

Of course Apple needs to pay, you know, fair and reasonable fees to all holders of all patents for all standards-related phone and network technology. Not all of those fees have been agreed upon.

Apple in the big scheme of things is defending itself against unreasonable fees claims for standards related phone and network technology, while at the same time attacking others for stealing Apple's private and unique computer software technology.

The new device class of smart phone is a computer with phone capabilities. The old mobile phone companies have failed miserably to invent in this device class which Apple arguably created. The old mobile phone companies now have to rely on Google and Microsoft to do their inventing.
post #86 of 156
Originally Posted by Ewan View Post
I'm the ignorant one? You are calling her American when she is clearly of Korean-American. I know you are a racist and would love to strip everyone of their culture and race for your own personal hatred. Don't assume if you don't know, and don't talk if you don't know.

 

OI! No. She's an American. Born in Washington D.C. Of Korean descent. She can't even speak Korean.

 

I am an American. Born in Bluffton, Ohio. Of Swiss-Irish descent. I am neither Swiss nor Irish, though I can speak German (high school) and a smidge of Irish (lived there for four months and am currently learning in my spare time for fun).

 

Please stop this nonsense.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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post #87 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

While it's true that whoever wins has the upper hand, winning at least SOMETHING on appeal is not as uncommon as you think. After all, Apple won an appeal on this very case in order to get an injunction on the sale of some Samsung products.

 

True, but that is a single issue.  If the jury were (as unlikely as I think it is) find for Samsung, I am convinced any victory for Apple on appeal would likely be much, much smaller.  Though I reserve the right to be wrong...  

 

Samsung has more to gain on an appeal than Apple does.  Especially if Samsung is hit with both the import ban and the full 2.5 billion in damages, there is a decent chance they could lessen the blow on appeal.

post #88 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Well, they say if you repeat a lie enough, that makes it true.

"Samsung is innovative."
"Samsung is innovative."
"Samsung is innovative."
"Samsung is innovative."
"Samsung is innovative."
"Samsung is innovative."
"Samsung is innovative."
"Samsung is innovative."
"Samsung is innovative."
"Samsung is innovative."
"Samsung is innovative."
"Samsung is innovative."
"Samsung is innovative."
"Samsung is innovative."
"Samsung is innovative."

Goddamn, the Retina Display shows that fine print mighty fine.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #89 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Personally I would prefer that Apple settle and license virtually every patent claim thus taking the high road. My feeling is that they would profit even more and minimize the critical media press commentaries therefore enhancing their public image and further solidifying their dominate position in mobile technology worldwide. That way they could pay the fees yet maintain their own IP. Perhaps it would add another $50 to the cost but that being subsidized would not make that much difference. When it was time to take another company to court over patents the competitor would have no counter position to argue from since Apple would have already licensed all relevant patents.
I know that sounds a bit idealistic but I don't like seeing all of Apples private research and strategy information being made public.

In order to license something, possible buyers would have to believe you own it in the first place.

Why buy the cow when the milk is free?
post #90 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by 845032 View Post

Google’s Motorola Files New Patent Case Against Apple



http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-08-17/google-s-motorola-files-new-patent-case-against-apple-at-itc

Whatever, Samsung is not the last one.
Good Luck with that
Apple is 'one and only' trouble maker in industry.
World will be a better place if without Apple

Did you type that yourself or use a Korean-to-English translator?

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #91 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

PS: I also follow the same paradigm for transvestites and transexuals because sex and gender are distinct despite the common interchangeable usage. If you want to dress as the opposite sex you were born, pre- or post-op, then I'll use the pronoun that you wish to be referred as. Seems fair to me.

I'll keep that in mind. Sadly, I don't have a lot of transgender acquaintances. Living in Irvine, in Orange County is a rather sanitized version of Southern California.

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post #92 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Of course you are technically correct however I believe it is worth mentioning that many immigrants to this country live in tight knit communities for many generations. Examples of Vietnamese, Chinese and Koreans are all quite evident at least here in Southern California. An example is my next door neighbor, who is Korean, a naturalized citizen and has lived here for more than 50 years yet doesn't speak a word of English. They have a business in a Korean section near Los Angeles and they live entirely as they did in Korea. The street and business signs are in Korean and you would be hard pressed to hear any English being spoken in the street yet a large majority of these people are Americans. I'm not claiming that the judge is at all prejudiced by her ethnicity but the the foreign nationalism of some cultures within the US is real and very extreme. The older European immigration into the US had the same effect for only a generation or two. The Asian cultures are much more resistant to integration in my observation. Obviously there is a similar situation with Mexican Americans.

The causes for why immigrant -- even non-immigrant, non-ethnic -- cultures sometimes clump together are complex and varied.

To suggest that it has to do with 'real and extreme foreign nationalism' is facile.
post #93 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I'll keep that in mind. Sadly, I don't have a lot of transgender acquaintances. Living in Irvine, in Orange County is a rather sanitized version of Southern California.

I don't either. I assume it's mostly our lifestyle and the rarity of the occurrence that makes it unlikely for us to encounter this in the real world. I do recall hearing the "he, she, it" reference from people many years ago (perhaps from even myself) and wondering what the proper term and realizing that "it' is exceeding offense to refer to any human being. But all that is really off topic from an already off topic conversation. 1biggrin.gif

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post #94 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


The causes for why immigrant -- even non-immigrant, non-ethnic -- cultures sometimes clump together are complex and varied.
To suggest that it has to do with 'real and extreme foreign nationalism' is facile.

I'll give you complex and varied, not facile.

 

For example nearby in Santa Ana, not even the Mexicans and the Guatemalans get along, especially during World Cup.

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post #95 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I'll give you complex and varied, not facile.

 

For example nearby in Santa Ana, not even the Mexicans and the Guatemalans get along, especially during World Cup.

What a childish example.

 

That's exactly what I meant by 'facile' (I was being polite).

post #96 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I'll give you complex and varied, not facile.

For example nearby in Santa Ana, not even the Mexicans and the Guatemalans get along, especially during World Cup.

I agree with anantksundaram. Your example is demonstrating a facile disagreement. You can't get more superficial than sport teams from different nations competing against each other.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #97 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


Doesn't mean they pass the legal tests for prior art. Especially on terms of the specifics of the patent. And specifics are very important. You can have two things that are 99.9% the same but on that last detail they are different and thus legally there is no violation. Many parallel developed tech come down to that notion. Looks the same to the user but is implemented a different way and the implementation is specified in the patent. So it was two folks with the same idea at the same time, but no violation. Many of the ideas that Apple 'steals' are this game.
You mention candy bar phones. I had one. A Nokia. Had a grid of icons on a little screen above the keypad. Is that prior art. Likely not since I didn't touch that grid to select one but used an arrow key on the keypad. Some of the phones Samsung submitted could come down to the same thing and the jury will likely say no they aren't prior art for Apple's 'specific' patent

i've used every iphone since the 3G and have seen other phones. i don't know how you can be confused by them. apple deserves some good technical patents for iOS, but if i was on the jury i'd rule for samsung on the design patent issue. i don't see how the iphone design is so unique and samsung is copying it to the point of confusion

post #98 of 156
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
[sketch]

 

Always love those.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #99 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


You can't get more superficial than sport teams from different nations competing against each other.

Except when they start shooting, stabbing and beating each other. My sports team reference was probably irrelevant.

 

I liked your clip though

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post #100 of 156
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post
I'm not sure that he is necessarily a bigot if he is asserting that all cultures behave this way. Delusional, certainly. Projecting, maybe.

 

See, this is how you get out of jury duty. Just say you're prejudiced against all races.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #101 of 156
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post
Tell me: what race/culture gets to use the unmodified descriptor 'American'? And who decides that?

 

Maybe the same people that get to decide that "American" isn't the demonym for our country and can only be applied to a "one continent" view of both Americas. lol.gif

 

And NO, I don't want to start that argument again. lol.gif

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #102 of 156
Quote:

Google’s Motorola Files New Patent Case Against Apple

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-08-17/google-s-motorola-files-new-patent-case-against-apple-at-itc

 

Whatever, Samsung is not the last one.

Good Luck with that

Apple is 'one and only' trouble maker in industry.

World will be a better place if without Apple

 
Originally Posted by xRCx View Post

do you need a hug?

hopefully he'll get one from a grizzly bear with a sore tooth and a grudge against brainless trolls with stupid numerical names

post #103 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewan View Post

I love Apple but for the sake of humanity I hope they lose! Apple losing will set an example for every other corporation who tries to bully the small guy. Go Samsung! Free Apple Juice for everyone when Apple loses.

I think you have lost perspective on exactly what Apple has achieved. They are still very much the underdog in an industry with many entrenched players. They took a huge gamble by disrupting a market that was treating phones like disposable fashion accessories rather than a device designed with function and user experience in mind. Samsung had 20+ years to develop an iPhone-like experience for their users. They didn't because they had no vision for the future. They were too busy trying to copy the Nokia look (apparently with no appreciation for how the placement of buttons/menus contributed to the Nokia experience).

You only need look to their poorly managed legal team to understand the difference in corporate ethos between the two companies. I hope Samsung get nailed to the wall by their own internal documents.
post #104 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

i have a lot of apple stuff at home but...
I love it when someone starts a post like this. It's the equivalent of saying, "I'm not lying, but...", this lets me know I can disregard anything they have to say.
Quote:
...there were lots of candy bar style phones out before the iphone...

Also, I have never considered an iPhone as being a candy bar style phone, if I remember correctly, before the iPhone, such a style was more commonly called a pocket pc style or PDA style.

We've always been at war with Eastasia...

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post #105 of 156
Originally Posted by diplication View Post
Also, I have never considered an iPhone as being a candy bar style phone, if I remember correctly, before the iPhone, such a style was more commonly called a pocket pc style or PDA style.

 

What about the LG Chocolate? That's when I first remember hearing about the 'candy bar' format referred to as such.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #106 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Of course you are technically correct however I believe it is worth mentioning that many immigrants to this country live in tight knit communities for many generations.... Obviously there is a similar situation with Mexican Americans.
Similar yet different, there are many places in the southwest where Spanish was spoken many years before any English speakers arrived. These places are usually identified by the Spanish language place names. In these places Engish speakers would be the immigrants living in tight knit communities for many generations.

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post #107 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

See, this is how you get out of jury duty. Just say you're prejudiced against all races.
Or you can say you always do what the voices in your head tell you to do.

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post #108 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

What about the LG Chocolate? That's when I first remember hearing about the 'candy bar' format referred to as such.
Stop candy-coating the issue.

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We've always been at war with Eastasia...

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post #109 of 156
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post
You'd think that was enough to warrant a ban.

 

It's infraction-worthy, certainly. If you see racism, please do report it as inappropriate.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

Reply
post #110 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by diplication View Post


I love it when someone starts a post like this. It's the equivalent of saying, "I'm not lying, but..."

Exactly! LOL.

 

My other favorites:

"The check is the mail....."

"It's not about the money...."

"I am sorry you feel that way....."

post #111 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewan View Post

Judge Koh is and will forever be in favour of Samsung because it is from her native land, if you don't want to believe it then that's your problem.

 

Her native land is the U.S.

Samsung is based in Korea.

post #112 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

I'm not sure that he is necessarily a bigot if he is asserting that all cultures behave this way. Delusional, certainly. Projecting, maybe.

By the dictionary definition, it is racism, not bigotry. Asserting that Lucy Koh cannot be a fair and impartial judge because of her ethnicity is a prejudicial remark. You'd think that was enough to warrant a ban.

Well the whole thesis was strange - he started by saying how much he wanted Apple to lose. Then he went on to complain that Judge Koh seemed to be biased against Apple, when all the other posters of that persuasion have been complaining that she is biased against Samsung. Then he claimed that all cultures are racist, so she must be too. Then his mum sent him to bed - maybe we'll find out tomorrow if he doesn't get himself banned before then.
post #113 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by diplication View Post


Similar yet different, there are many places in the southwest where Spanish was spoken many years before any English speakers arrived. These places are usually identified by the Spanish language place names. In these places Engish speakers would be the immigrants living in tight knit communities for many generations.

That is a nice story however it ignores the actual history. The Spanish missions were built from the late 1760s through around 1830 at which time only the Spanish missionaries spoke Spanish and gave places their names. The native population did not speak Spanish but rather indigenous languages. The immigration of Spanish speaking immigrants from Mexico did not start until after 1910 due to the turmoil of the Mexican revolution. At that time California was already a state and the indigenous population had been given ownership of territories. Before that time there were only a few areas of the southwest that were very sparely populated by Spanish speakers. That early 1900s immigration can not compare to the influx of Spanish speaking immigrants into the US in more recent times, For example the Spanish speaking population in the US has doubled since 1990. It is these immigrants to which I referred as being gathered together into segregated communities and not integrating.

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post #114 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post


Well the whole thesis was strange - he started by saying how much he wanted Apple to lose. Then he went on to complain that Judge Koh seemed to be biased against Apple, when all the other posters of that persuasion have been complaining that she is biased against Samsung. Then he claimed that all cultures are racist, so she must be too. Then his mum sent him to bed - maybe we'll find out tomorrow if he doesn't get himself banned before then.

 

I flagged it. The person insisted Koh wasn't an "American," but had to called "Korean-American" because of her ethnic background. I find labeling people that way distasteful. It is used to remind people that they aren't "real Americans" and could never be just "Americans," because of their appearance.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #115 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

I flagged it. The person insisted Koh wasn't an "American," but had to called "Korean-American" because of her ethnic background. I find labeling people that way distasteful. It is used to remind people that they aren't "real Americans" and could never be just "Americans," because of their appearance.

Here, here
If you are born here you are American. If you emigrated here and became a citizen then you are blank/American.

It should be up to the person how they choose to honor and integrate their ethnic heritage.
post #116 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

Well the whole thesis was strange - he started by saying how much he wanted Apple to lose. Then he went on to complain that Judge Koh seemed to be biased against Apple, when all the other posters of that persuasion have been complaining that she is biased against Samsung. Then he claimed that all cultures are racist, so she must be too. Then his mum sent him to bed - maybe we'll find out tomorrow if he doesn't get himself banned before then.

I flagged it. The person insisted Koh wasn't an "American," but had to called "Korean-American" because of her ethnic background. I find labeling people that way distasteful. It is used to remind people that they aren't "real Americans" and could never be just "Americans," because of their appearance.

I noticed also, from his spelling, that he is not American - or at least wasn't educated in the US.
post #117 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

By the dictionary definition, it is racism, not bigotry. Asserting that Lucy Koh cannot be a fair and impartial judge because of her ethnicity is a prejudicial remark. You'd think that was enough to warrant a ban.

Technically, it's not racism because "Korean" isn't a race. It's more akin to bigotry.
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post #118 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

 

I flagged it. The person insisted Koh wasn't an "American," but had to called "Korean-American" because of her ethnic background. I find labeling people that way distasteful. It is used to remind people that they aren't "real Americans" and could never be just "Americans," because of their appearance.


It's silly either way. We don't add prefixes based on ancestral roots, but I'd still say he's trolling all of you. I think the guy just wanted a reaction, as I don't believe he's that dim.

post #119 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Except when they start shooting, stabbing and beating each other. My sports team reference was probably irrelevant.

I liked your clip though

That happens a lot more than you'd think especially overseas.
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post #120 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmarcoot View Post

I don't envy this jury. I have my own thoughts and opinions from having followed Apples innovation for the iPhone closely for years. To have all this crammed in 2 weeks must be mind boggling. I expect the jury to be hung.

 

I don't know about a hung jury. It's not an "all or nothing" affair. Every item must be decided separately... right?

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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