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iPad demand expected to contribute to HP's largest-ever quarterly loss - Page 2

post #41 of 88

Honestly, I don't think you can attribute the theoretical pending loss to Apple iPad demand.  If HP posts a big loss, it will be due to two issues: 1. The overall world economy.  2. HP's products.

 

Sales.  Consumer PC sales are down across the board due to the fact that people have no money to spend.  Sales to companies are way down (HP's biggest source of income) because companies are slashing budgets due to the economy.  Companies & individuals that do have money, spend it on Apple products.  All the other people (the lowest common denominator) who the PC industry has historically targeted, don't have any money.  And then the kinds of people who can't bring themselves to buy high quality products when times are good, are certainly not going to be buying anything now.  

 

Products.  HP needs to rethink their entire product line(s).  Simplify.  Take advantage of economies of scale.  For example, there are literally dozens of preconfigured DL-3xx servers offered, and a near infinite number of customizations.  WHY?!?  HP needs to shrink that down to just TWO (a 1U and a 2U).  Preconfigure nothing.  Start with the chassis+motherboard, and then customize it all online...  Why do you need a dozen CPU choices?  Why do you need ~50 different choices of RAM?  Why do you need to choose between 8 different power supplies?  Answer: You don't.  

 

For the CPU(s) have a choice of 3 - one low end, one mid-performance/efficiency, and one high end.  Choose your CPU type, then choose quantity (1-4).  For RAM, have a choice of maybe 3 types, but with smart selection so that you can't pair the wrong type of RAM with the CPU choice.  Choose your RAM type (registered, non), then choose quantity (8-192GB).  Eliminate the RAID choice entirely - make the best RAID product a standard feature on all systems, it's on the logic board now anyway.  For power supplies, 2 choices (smart selection depending on power consumption of CPUs, RAM, etc).

 

Don't get me started on HP laptops.  Our company uses them.  They are not always reliable.  And they're big, thick, and ugly.  Try to look one up on HP.com...  There are so many models, it's impossible to keep track of what's already out there, let alone what new models one should choose from.  Simplify!  HP needs to cut down all the models to just FOUR - one each of 11, 13, 15, & 17".  Customize online.  Might as well keep the design aesthetic that looks like a MacBook, but make them black anodized aluminum to keep the corporate suits happy and so they don't look quite so much like a direct rip-off of Apple's designs.

 

HP has the same problem with too many models of desktop PCs...  And printers...  And...

post #42 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Good. What a shitty company. Never had a single product form them that did not have repeated hardware failures. 

 

I'm an Apple fan, but it's amazing to see HP go downhill like this.  They were a great company.  9 BILLION in a quarter.  Wow.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

HP is in the red, and it's POSSIBLE the iPad is "contributing" in some way (significantly? Maybe… or maybe JUST a little?) to that loss… Fairly vague supposition of a headline there, no?

 

I think it's more likely a competitive combination of Apple iMacs, Laptops, AND iPads (since the quarterly numbers for all three keep growing year on year)… PLUS other players who are growing dramatically… I'd give the most weight to that last one, actually...

 

Uh, that opinion has been put forth by many industry experts.  I don't think we need to give too much credibility to your guesses about what's doing the damage.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #43 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelsalt View Post

http://store.apple.com/ca/product/MC531ZM/A/apple-ipad-camera-connection-kit  + http://store.apple.com/ca/browse/campaigns/airprint

Also, you can back it up via iCloud.

Also, many simple games exist (for free) on the app store.

I said there were games on app store. However, you can easily buy a 80gb external for 40 bucks vs 25gb iCloud. And the hard drive could easily last 10 years given its low usage. So, 400 vs 40 bucks. U pick

The iPad is great but most people still need a PC, just dont need to refresh them as much
post #44 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

But I need a personal computer that does 3D modeling, not a business computer, yet; but a personal computer, but crap my iPad doesn't do that  grrrrrr
Granted, an iPad will do what a good amount of people need. I've argued that before. However, I notice a lot of people that don't need a computer to do work, love to play flash game (i'll be the first one to say, i don't want/miss flash) but you can't do that and even if you could, it'd be miserable to play without a mouse.

The iPad can't download many programs that people get off the internet. The iPad is a great device, but it's a better supplementary device than a true "PC" and is by no means a "computer" according to your definition.
Everyone I know has a PC and an iPad. They still need the PC more than the iPad. Because at the end of the day, how in the hell are people going to get those digital pictures off their digital camera (everyone doesn't have a smartphone yet, especially with a good camera in it; the iphone camera is great but it'll be a couple of years before the stand alone cameras take a huge hit)


That said, I still love my iPad.







What about flash videos and games? that the vast majority of people play?   That said, i understand all the app store games and flash dying out  blah blah

I also wish the iPad would gain mouse support, its nice on the go to have a touchscreen, but what about hooking it up to the TV to use it on the big monitor and sitting back to use only a mouse (easier than holding the iPad). I know a ton of people that do that with their PCs. 

Anyway, it is based on opinion whether or not the iPad is a full PC or not.   I think its a great supplementary device, but even with school work aside, the iPad doesn't deliver in some areas. Anyone who does only web surfing (even the experience there isn't prefect; example, on apple's website, i was unable to get a popup to come up for the education website, which may or may not be fixed by now, but it worked on my PC 1 minute later.


This is a useless argument though lol

I understand what you need. I also need my Mac Pro. But what does that have to do with your definition that the iPad isn't a computer?
post #45 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

My daughter would be one of the people that decided to use an iPad instead of a Dell laptop. At first she said an iPad wouldn't work for school because she needed MS Office. I downloaded Pages for her on my iPad and within an hour she had me return the Dell and get her a New iPad. So I don't disagree with you. My comments were mostly directed at the fact that there is a surge of ultrabooks. Clearly Apple is moving towards blurring the lines between OSX and iOS. Mountain Lion does a great job at bring that line even closer. 

While I have no doubt the data is correct that many are using the iPad as their primary computer I don't believe that is what Apple wants to happen. I also believe that the primary problem with HP is their stuff sucks and is loaded with bloatware. If Apple wanted the iPad to be a primary computer they wouldn't be creating Retina display Macbook pros. While I could be wrong on this I do believe the iMac and Mac mini are going to see very few upgrades and have the same fate as the Mac Pro where it will be around if you really want one. 

I also find that articles like this are just too vague. As far as Windows 8 I believe Windows 7 will be around for a long time because people are going to freak out when they see Windows 8. That is a huge learning curve for the average consumer. 

Ok, that works for me.

I wonder what Apple intended, or even thought about. Remember what SJ said in an interview shortly before he came back to Apple, when he was asked what he would do IF he came back to Apple:

" I would milk the Mac for all it was worth, and then I'd go on to the next big thing."

Isn't that EXACTLY what he did? Would Apple object to selling ten times as many iPads as Macs? 20 times as many? 100 times as many? And if that obsoleted Mac sales, would they really care? I don't know, maybe not.
post #46 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I understand what you need. I also need my Mac Pro. But what does that have to do with your definition that the iPad isn't a computer?


It's a computing device but not what a computer is currently considered. In 3-5 years. This conversation will probably fall in favor of the iPad. But not ATM in the opinion of 50% of people I'm sure.
post #47 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

I said there were games on app store. However, you can easily buy a 80gb external for 40 bucks vs 25gb iCloud. And the hard drive could easily last 10 years given its low usage. So, 400 vs 40 bucks. U pick
The iPad is great but most people still need a PC, just dont need to refresh them as much

Interestingly enough, the lifetime of a HDD has little to do with its useage. A study done a couple of years ago showed that even new, unopened drives had the same reliability issues as drives that were used for the same amount of time that the other drives were on the shelf. I've got a bunch of bad HDD's in my computer room. I don't keep a drive after three years of use, as that's when failures begin to rise. You may get lucky though. Some drives last much longer. But it's still a crapshoot.
post #48 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Ok, that works for me.
I wonder what Apple intended, or even thought about. Remember what SJ said in an interview shortly before he came back to Apple, when he was asked what he would do IF he came back to Apple:
" I would milk the Mac for all it was worth, and then I'd go on to the next big thing."
Isn't that EXACTLY what he did? Would Apple object to selling ten times as many iPads as Macs? 20 times as many? 100 times as many? And if that obsoleted Mac sales, would they really care? I don't know, maybe not.

iPads are the future of computing, almost no one will use a laptop or desktop in a few years.
Why would they.

J.
post #49 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

It's a computing device but not what a computer is currently considered. In 3-5 years. This conversation will probably fall in favor of the iPad. But not ATM in the opinion of 50% of people I'm sure.

It's only some people who think that way. Even the companies that evaluate sales, and who don't dump tablets in with "computers" in the rankings yet, say they are computers, but don't know where to put them. But that already changing, as Changewave, and a couple of others are putting them in with computer sales.

There are more powerful, and less powerful computers, we don't seperate them into computers, and non computers, just as we don't say that sports cars aren't cars because they can't carry six people and a lot of luggage.
post #50 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

A few things: 
"play simple games" which are usually done with flash, well that is out.    So iPad can't do that

Wow. You sure managed to get a lot of things wrong in one post.

Starting with this one. There are plenty of games for the iPad. What in the world would make you think that ALL games required Flash?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

I don't play games on my computers, if i ever do, they aren't "simple" and a mouse is needed.

Ignoring, of course, the thousands of games available for the iPad - which don't require a mouse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

Printing letters/pictures? I know I am not "up-to-date" considering I have other places my money needs to go. But, the iPad doesn't support USB printers?

So what? It supports WiFi printers just fine. And if you really MUST use a USB-only printer, you can put a cheap print server on the network and solve the problem.

Hint: Your Mac Pro won't support Serial or Parallel printers out of the box. Does that mean that it's not a 'real' computer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

Given, it has no USB. Plus it can not get the pictures off of a digital camera.

Yes, it can. You can use the iPad Camera Connection Kit. Or with some cameras, you can transfer the photos by WiFi. Or, worst case, you can transfer the photos to your computer and then to the iPad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

Anyway, even my mom will need that dumb PC to back up her iPhone and iPad. If only the iPad had a USB, it'd win a lot more people over. 

Based on what? Where's your evidence? And please explain how it is that you know more than Apple about what the iPad needs.

Yes, most people use a computer to back up an iPad or iPhone (although you can use the Cloud if you wish and if you are only using apps that support iCloud). So what? I can't use my convertible to transport 100 bags of mulch to my house every spring. Does that mean that the convertible isn't a transportation device?

The issue in this thread is that most people already have a computer. If they're looking for another one, an iPad will often meet their needs so an iPad may may more sense for some people than buying another desktop computer. Not ALL people. Maybe not even a large percentage of people. But SOME people can use an iPad instead of a desktop computer (and a few of them have posted here), so the concept that the iPad is cutting into HP's sales is not that difficult to comprehend.
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post #51 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnjnjn View Post

iPads are the future of computing, almost no one will use a laptop or desktop in a few years.
Why would they.
J.

I'm willing to bet that you're mostly right. I agree with what SJ said, about desktops and laptops becoming trucks. I doubt I'll never need a Mac Pro, or equivelant, assuming I'm still bothering with what I do on it. But I'll be doing more of that on an iPad.

Even now, when I design parts and such, I use a 3D CAD app on my iPad. The retina display has made that better. Next year, a more powerful CPU and GPU will make it faster.
post #52 of 88

iPad demand expected to contribute to HP's largest-ever quarterly loss

I call bullcrap and double bullcrap!  Everyone knows the iPad is completely useless for EVERYTHING.  It's just an overpriced toy that only idiot consumers buy.  H-P makes Windows computers which are supposedly great for EVERYTHING because they're cheap, have lots of ports, run Adobe Flash and especially Microsoft Office.  Ask any Windows fanboi and they'll tell you that much.  How could a useless iPad possibly put a hurting on H-P sales?  Don't consumers know what's important in this world?  I'm sure I've heard you can't do ANYTHING on a computing device that doesn't come with Windows.  Hell, even Steve Ballmer said that they're selling more Windows licenses now than they ever did in history.  Since when has Steve Ballmer ever been wrong?
 
/S
post #53 of 88
It must be their investment in the TouchPad because there is no way that the iPad could be affecting traditional PC sales seeing as how the iPad isn't a real PC¡ /s /sarcasm lol (is that obvious enough)

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post #54 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

Lol, once again, being an Apple form. Of course this will happen. 

Now thats where it comes in as "is and is not."   Your opinion = is; mine = is,is not    Why? I can't run heavy programs on it, I can't do 3D modeling, and even if i could, it'd be hell without a mouse or a stylus (a fine point). However, my mom has replaced her computer altogether with the iPad (3). So is it? Nope Is it not? Nope

It's simply opinion, IMO haha         If the iPad were a full computer, why would I just have ordered a Macbook to finish out my college career?

 

 

Just because you can do some things on some other computer doesn't make the iPad not a computer.  I can't use a macbook to run the web server for our company because we have too much traffic, does that mean the macbook isn't a computer?  Of course not.

post #55 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I'm willing to bet that you're mostly right. I agree with what SJ said, about desktops and laptops becoming trucks. I doubt I'll never need a Mac Pro, or equivelant, assuming I'm still bothering with what I do on it. But I'll be doing more of that on an iPad.
Even now, when I design parts and such, I use a 3D CAD app on my iPad. The retina display has made that better. Next year, a more powerful CPU and GPU will make it faster.

Numbers on the iPad is a real power tool. With almost no learning curve I managed to import (.csv files) and edit lots of spreadsheets. Even layout and export to PDF was easy to do. And all without a computer (as some would say).
The point is that learning Numbers and using it is a lot easier on the iPad.

J
post #56 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Interestingly enough, the lifetime of a HDD has little to do with its useage. A study done a couple of years ago showed that even new, unopened drives had the same reliability issues as drives that were used for the same amount of time that the other drives were on the shelf. I've got a bunch of bad HDD's in my computer room. I don't keep a drive after three years of use, as that's when failures begin to rise. You may get lucky though. Some drives last much longer. But it's still a crapshoot.


Interesting. I'll say you beat me there assuming you have good info. Now, then it's 120 vs 40 every 3 years


Though, I'd say I've had better luck than that with HDD except I had a western digital die about 2-4 weeks after getting it in my dell
post #57 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

 

A few things: 

"play simple games" which are usually done with flash, well that is out.    So iPad can't do that

I don't play games on my computers, if i ever do, they aren't "simple" and a mouse is needed. However, of the people I know that play games a lot. They say playing games on a computer is more enjoyable, and i would agree. But it is certainly more handy to play them on an iPad.

 

Printing letters/pictures? I know I am not "up-to-date" considering I have other places my money needs to go. But, the iPad doesn't support USB printers? Given, it has no USB. Plus it can not get the pictures off of a digital camera.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, even my mom will need that dumb PC to back up her iPhone and iPad. If only the iPad had a USB, it'd win a lot more people over. 

 

But i still love my iPad 2 haha

 

there are plenty of great games in the app store.

 

printing - I just bought my daughter a printer for college, she can print directly to it from her iPad

 

USB for cameras - Apple sells an adapter

 

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC531ZM/A/apple-ipad-camera-connection-kit

 

icloud is the backup. And it's free for up to 5 gigs.

 

fact is, the iPad can do all of the tasks you listed and a lot more, and does them quite well.  The specific connections used to accomplish those tasks are totally irrelevant to if it's a computer or not.

post #58 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I'm an Apple fan, but it's amazing to see HP go downhill like this.  They were a great company.  9 BILLION in a quarter.  Wow.  

 

Yeah, pretty soon that'll add up to real money. :-(

 

I think that the way to look at this whole situation is that the iPad has disrupted the computer market, just as the iPhone did the cellphone market. It's thrown established assumptions about how you get personal computing done, and who sells what kind of equipment to make that happen, into disarray and confusion. Previously you had Dell and HP and the others slugging it out for unit share and ever-slimmer profits in a commoditized market (plus Apple as a profitable, high end niche player). Then Apple lobs the iPad into the middle of the old reality like a hand grenade with the pin pulled. Now the old players are trying to adjust to a new reality, suffering in the process, and failing miserably in their attempts to match the iPad with their own tablets. Couple that with the forthcoming Windows 8, which because of the difficulty of upgrading to later Win versions tends to mean a new PC purchase then but not now, and it all adds up to severe weakness in the PC market.

 

The truth is that the iPad has expanded the field of what people previously thought constitutes a computer, and many users have found that it's exactly what they didn't know they wanted.

post #59 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

The iPad has nothing to do with HP's quarterly loss. The reason for the loss is HP has one of the highest failure rates and their systems have so much bloatware on them it takes 5 mins too boot. I see more and more consumers moving to the Macbook Air. Everyone is trying to get on the ultrabook ride and to date the only one that comes close to the Macbook Air is the Asus Zenbook Prime. Even that falls short.

 

Also look at the new 15" Macbook Pro with Retina display and 256gb of solid state storage. I see forums where some complain that it is just too expensive. If we think back there was a time when the entry level 15" pro was close to the price of the current entry level Retina display. With those specs and a 200.00 education discount that doesn't seem like a bad deal at all.

 

 

The iPhone and iPad get the most press. I think it is often overlooked at how good the Macbook pro and Air  lineup is and how good Mountain Lion is compared to Windows 7. Everyone is moving towards the ultrabook lineup and I simply see the Air taking the vast majority of that business.

 

While the iPad may have an impact on some level to the personal computer lineup I don't believe it's at big as some make it out to be, cosumers are going to buy the iPad in addition to a personal computer based on the old definition.

 

Apple is working hard to have the iPhone, iPad and Mac lineup work perfectly together. It's at least my opinion with and iPhone, iPad and Mac their isn't anything you can't do either for personal use or business.

 

 

+++ QFT

 

And there are some things that cannot be done any other way than with the Apple offerings!

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post #60 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail View Post

 

there are plenty of great games in the app store.

 

printing - I just bought my daughter a printer for college, she can print directly to it from her iPad

 

USB for cameras - Apple sells an adapter

 

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC531ZM/A/apple-ipad-camera-connection-kit

 

icloud is the backup. And it's free for up to 5 gigs.

 

fact is, the iPad can do all of the tasks you listed and a lot more, and does them quite well.  The specific connections used to accomplish those tasks are totally irrelevant to if it's a computer or not.

 

Like I said, its a matter of opinion. And thats cool that you can buy a printer for your daughter that works, my printer is GREAT but doesn't work with my ipad and i will not WASTE money buying another one. (not at all saying you did, i assume she needed one)

 

Games on the app store are cool, but they can sometimes be limited by the lack of mouse or keyboard. 

 

Cloud services are great, but tend to be an expensive alternative to HDD or DVDs. I have well over 5Gb in pictures and videos alone on my iphone collected over 2 years and i do not use it much. But high res pictures and videos will need some space.

 

Adapter, adapter, and next thing you know? just buy an ultrabook. Look I love apple products. But, the iPad IMO (maybe not yours) is not there yet. I wouldn't consider an iphone a PC either (dont use the whole definition of the fact it computes stuff, so does my 20 dollar calculator, is that a computer? sorta but the type we are talking? no, by no means)   an iphone is a smartphone, not a computer   an ipad is a tablet not a tablet PC or a PC. 

Crazy, cause i did a google search, and even STEVE JOBS himself, said its not a PC as we know it. Which is what i am aruging.

 

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-03-02/tech/29977517_1_pc-market-tablet-market-pc-world


Edited by Seankill - 8/20/12 at 2:40pm
post #61 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

The iPad has nothing to do with HP's quarterly loss. The reason for the loss is HP has one of the highest failure rates and their systems have so much bloatware on them it takes 5 mins too boot. I see more and more consumers moving to the Macbook Air. Everyone is trying to get on the ultrabook ride and to date the only one that comes close to the Macbook Air is the Asus Zenbook Prime. Even that falls short.

Also look at the new 15" Macbook Pro with Retina display and 256gb of solid state storage. I see forums where some complain that it is just too expensive. If we think back there was a time when the entry level 15" pro was close to the price of the current entry level Retina display. With those specs and a 200.00 education discount that doesn't seem like a bad deal at all.


The iPhone and iPad get the most press. I think it is often overlooked at how good the Macbook pro and Air  lineup is and how good Mountain Lion is compared to Windows 7. Everyone is moving towards the ultrabook lineup and I simply see the Air taking the vast majority of that business.

While the iPad may have an impact on some level to the personal computer lineup I don't believe it's at big as some make it out to be, cosumers are going to buy the iPad in addition to a personal computer based on the old definition.

Apple is working hard to have the iPhone, iPad and Mac lineup work perfectly together. It's at least my opinion with and iPhone, iPad and Mac their isn't anything you can't do either for personal use or business.

I would call HP's QA a factor but the charts I've seen since the iPad's debut in 2010 are too coincidental to say that the iPad has nothing to do with it. Even with Mac sales we're seeing a decline in its growth because of the iPad.

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post #62 of 88

I think this article is incorrect.  Isn't most of the loss related to the $8 billion writeoff they are taking this quarter?

 

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/260594/hp_takes_8_billion_writedown_on_services_arm.html

post #63 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Couldn't be that their computers suck
+++++++

In a nut shell HPs biggest problem! I have no doubt that Apples iPad impacts HP some, but having crap products is a far bigger problem for HP. Even their printer lineup has turned to crap so blaming Apple is more than a bit out of place.
post #64 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimt View Post

I remember back in the '50s when Hewlett-Packard made the best oscilloscopes, and other fine test equipment.

Yep, and the spun off company is still making them and is still very successful. Which makes you wonder if all the people with the brains in the organization left to work for Agilent. More importantly is HP the tech sectors next Kodak? I ask because Agilent isn't the only successful spin off that left the parent company to rot.

I suspect the answer to that question is that no, HP isn't completely dead yet. However they do need new leadership that has more than half a clue. The PC industry is ripe for innovation as SoC technology moves us to far more compact and capable devices. The need for "PCs", that is desktop machines, won't go away but but it is a changing market. They need to adapt and that takes somebody with vision.
post #65 of 88
Your perspective here is more than a bit screwed up. First off even Apple doesn't market the iPad as a replacement for a computer for people that need what a MBP does. However iPad is a far better choice for a computing device for those that really don't need a machine that runs Winows or MacOS.

In any event your approach to classifying the iPad is screwed up, it is a computer simply because I can program it to do what I want within the capabilities of the device. I can do that via XCode or the various programmable apps available on the device. Frankly my little iPad 3 is more capable than many of the computer I've owned in the past in that regard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

Lol, once again, being an Apple form. Of course this will happen. 
Now thats where it comes in as "is and is not."   Your opinion = is; mine = is,is not    Why? I can't run heavy programs on it, I can't do 3D modeling, and even if i could, it'd be hell without a mouse or a stylus (a fine point). However, my mom has replaced her computer altogether with the iPad (3). So is it? Nope Is it not? Nope
It's simply opinion, IMO haha         If the iPad were a full computer, why would I just have ordered a Macbook to finish out my college career?




What about the other 70%? So for 30% of the world, the iPad is a full computer?    Then you can't say it is because to say it is, means that it surely is. 

I can't say a color is blue and expect everyone to agree when 70% of the other people say it is purple.

That said, I've argued the other way around before. You can't just say it is a computer or not, you would have to say something more like it is a mainstream computer for the average user or something
Cause for me, it doesn't do what a computer does; however, i love my iPad as a supplement to my computing experience.
post #66 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

Crazy, cause i did a google search, and even STEVE JOBS himself, said its not a PC as we know it. Which is what i am aruging.

This isn't much of an arguement either. My Z100 wasn't like my Vic20, which wasn't like my Mac Plus, which wasn't like the Linux machines I had, none of which are like my current MBP. A full half of the computing machines I've owned over the years couldn't even run iOS properly if they tried much less fit in the iPad. None of the shortcomings of those old computers made them any less of a computer. My iPhone and iPad are both computers just of a different type than the MBP I own. Just like that old Vic 20 was a far different machine than the old Zeinth or the Linux machines I've had.
post #67 of 88
I'd really like to see Apples failure rates on their SSDs in their laptops. In theory these should last longer for general use. Infant mortality should be a bit better too.

The problem with HDs is that manufactures have really screwed up on quality control at times. I remember the company buying a series of Dell laptops that had every HD fail within months of use all due to HD failures. Similar quality failures have happened with desktop drives, even enterprise drives. In this case I use the plural form to refer to manufactures because it isn't just one supplier with lax quality.

As a side note in the past I've always expressed frustration with Apple and their reluctance to put the newest HD technology into their machines. Maybe I'm getting old but I've grown to see that as Apple covering its ass and making sure they have proven tech in their machines. The big problem here is that flash based tech is hitting the wall when it comes to durability and longevity, so you have to wonder where Apple is going next for storage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Interestingly enough, the lifetime of a HDD has little to do with its useage. A study done a couple of years ago showed that even new, unopened drives had the same reliability issues as drives that were used for the same amount of time that the other drives were on the shelf. I've got a bunch of bad HDD's in my computer room. I don't keep a drive after three years of use, as that's when failures begin to rise. You may get lucky though. Some drives last much longer. But it's still a crapshoot.
post #68 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimt View Post

I remember back in the '50s when Hewlett-Packard made the best oscilloscopes, and other fine test equipment.

WOW! I thought I was old :-) I just was born in the '50s... Good to know that there are not only young geeks on this talkback.

post #69 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

Lol, once again, being an Apple form. Of course this will happen. 

Now thats where it comes in as "is and is not."   Your opinion = is; mine = is,is not    Why? I can't run heavy programs on it, I can't do 3D modeling, and even if i could, it'd be hell without a mouse or a stylus (a fine point). However, my mom has replaced her computer altogether with the iPad (3). So is it? Nope Is it not? Nope

It's simply opinion, IMO haha         If the iPad were a full computer, why would I just have ordered a Macbook to finish out my college career?

It is maybe not the personal computer you need but it is a personal computer, kind of. It's not just a reader but it is also a reader kind of. 

post #70 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

I also wish the iPad would gain mouse support etc.

You know when the Mac came on the market, people like you said "it's not a computer because it has a mouse". Real computers have no mouse, only keyboard input, LCI... Yeap ;-) 

post #71 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

Like I said, its a matter of opinion.

No, it's not. Most of your statements were factually incorrect.
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post #72 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

 

So, you'd position HP to try and compete directly with IBM then?

 

Better to just find that other job… 

 

Yup and yup. 

 

Lesser of two disasters. 

post #73 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

If I were running HP, my first step would be to look for another job. 

 

Failing that, I think I'd kill most consumer-oriented products and refocus on enterprise/government/academia. 

 

Using SJ's truck/car analogy, I'd turn HP into the best darned truck producer it can be. HP can no more compete with iPads than 1990-era GM could compete with Honda Civics. 

Good analogy...HP is an ice cube.

post #74 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


I'm willing to bet that you're mostly right. I agree with what SJ said, about desktops and laptops becoming trucks. I doubt I'll never need a Mac Pro, or equivelant, assuming I'm still bothering with what I do on it. But I'll be doing more of that on an iPad.
Even now, when I design parts and such, I use a 3D CAD app on my iPad. The retina display has made that better. Next year, a more powerful CPU and GPU will make it faster.

I definitely have not become as attached to my iPad 3 as you apparently are. I can't imagine doing CAD work with my fat fingers as the cursor/pointer, especially if your CAD program has the same kind of cursor tools that I have in my desktop application. When you have lots of nodes it is sometimes difficult to select them with a mouse. How do you do it with a fingertip? A desktop CAD application is really keyboard intensive. How does an iPad version deal with all the normal keyboard shortcuts?

 

Anyway I do enjoy using my iPad but it is really frustrating at times. For example someone sent me a PM in this forum and I was unable to do something as simple as select or copy the text out of the message which was important at the time. Very aggravating. grumble.gif

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post #75 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

 

HP used to make some incredibly good calculators.

But that was then and this is now and yeah, they're a shitty company now.

 

HP made the best hand held calculators ever in the 70's and through the 80's. The HP 35 and 45 were incredible devices. They made excellent desktop computers with their own proprietary processor during the 70's and early 80's. Their medical and electronics equipment is still some of the best out there. Their pen plotters and printer plotters are incredible also. The real big problem is when they decided to compete in the volume market and thru out quality (by buying Compaq and lowering HP's stds to those of Compaq) which was the beginning of the end for them with PC's. They made some good moves with 3COM and even Palm if it had been managed correctly. They should have bit the bullet and bailed on the PC market, kept the good printers and other aforementioned quality products and not try to compete on volume. Stay with quality.

 

What really amazes me is how a company that has a great track record with their founders product let things get so out of line with PC's and got dazzled into trying to make bucks by changing the entire way they had done business up to the point. Maybe they could still survive by hacking off the poisoned part of the company (PC trade) and refocus on the other stuff.

 

Sad state of affairs that probably has Mr. Bill Hewlett and Mr. Dave Packard spinning in their graves.

post #76 of 88

Most of the $9B is to write off their purchase of EDS. Unlike IBM, HP has not successfully made the transition to 'services-led' company and is too reliant on product sales. Obviously, tablets and smartphones have impacted ALL PC makers and HP, being the largest has felt the biggest impact. Whether Meg can turn the ship around is still TBD. I've had a couple of recently un-employed HP folks contact me lately about a job. Needless to say, HP has a long road ahead of it...

post #77 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill View Post

 

Like I said, its a matter of opinion. And thats cool that you can buy a printer for your daughter that works, my printer is GREAT but doesn't work with my ipad and i will not WASTE money buying another one. (not at all saying you did, i assume she needed one)

 

Games on the app store are cool, but they can sometimes be limited by the lack of mouse or keyboard. 

 

Cloud services are great, but tend to be an expensive alternative to HDD or DVDs. I have well over 5Gb in pictures and videos alone on my iphone collected over 2 years and i do not use it much. But high res pictures and videos will need some space.

 

Adapter, adapter, and next thing you know? just buy an ultrabook. Look I love apple products. But, the iPad IMO (maybe not yours) is not there yet. I wouldn't consider an iphone a PC either (dont use the whole definition of the fact it computes stuff, so does my 20 dollar calculator, is that a computer? sorta but the type we are talking? no, by no means)   an iphone is a smartphone, not a computer   an ipad is a tablet not a tablet PC or a PC. 

Crazy, cause i did a google search, and even STEVE JOBS himself, said its not a PC as we know it. Which is what i am aruging.

 

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-03-02/tech/29977517_1_pc-market-tablet-market-pc-world

 

We have garment printers in our company that require a windows computer.  They won't even work with an iMac running boot camp.  Does that mean a mac isn't a computer?  Of course not. Tons of printers sold in years past won't work with any computer on the market today.  Some require the no longer supported AppleTalk, others require parallel ports, or lack drivers.  The iPad prints.  Someone buying an iPad for their only computer can buy a supported printer for as little as $40 if they need to print.

 

The iPad doesn't have a USB port connection for digital cameras.  But you can still import photos, you can either get a USB adapter or you can do it wirelessly.

 

You said sometimes games on the iPad are limited because there is no keyboard/mouse.  Sometimes games on a Mac/PC are limited because there is no direct touch input, no multitouch, no accelerometer, no gyroscope, etc.

 

Of course the iPad was not a PC as we knew it then just like the Mac wasn't a PC as we knew it in 1984, both redefined computing.  Steve Jobs never once said the iPad wasn't a computer.

post #78 of 88
HP needs to focus on peripherals and connectivity. Spin off the PC business like IBM did but take a cut of its profits. Why is Apple still doing well in the PC space? They don't make the traditional floor-based PCs, though their IMacs likely fit that niche!. There is no longer any room for the traditional floor-based PC since a laptop has the necessary power now for many and can drive separate screens and use separate keyboards. And for needed power users, likely iMac and Mac Pro will need to merge into a single offering.

Apple laptops are doing better than competitors because Apple R&D is producing innovative designs and functions and eliminating less needed components or never installing them to begin with, such as BluRay.

Msft may be the only company that has a chance to steal some thunder with their Surface computer, but they wiil have to execute perfectly for that to happen. Windows 8 cannot be more bloat ware, and will have to work well on phones and tablets and laptops. Msft will take years to consolidate and simplify their product lines from the incoherent mess that exists today.

Then you have Android. There is no Android for the laptop space and I don't see that happening. Android is not about consolidation but about ubiquity on many competing small mobile devices.

So the future now looks like Apple vs Msft. If Apple and partners could compete with Office for that space -- wishful thinking.
Edited by waldobushman - 8/21/12 at 9:42am
post #79 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

...There is no longer any room for the traditional PC since a laptop has the necessary power now and can drive separate screens and use separate keyboards….

 

I could not disagree more. There is still a space for the desktop computer. I have no need to carry a laptop with me with my iPad and iPhone. Why pay for the miniaturization cost and other trade offs if you don't need it. I bought a new iMac to replace the one I had purchased 5 yrs previous. I did not have to pay for a redundant monitor, mine came with a 27" beautiful screen in one package. I did not have to decide if I wanted an SSD or a large HDD I was able to get both. I also have my optical disk read/write system that I do not need that often but is available when I want it -- I did not have to pay for an external one or connect to one in another machine. I didn't need to get a second keyboard because I wanted the entire full-size set of keys including a number pad. I have a very nice ThunderBolt option if I need it but did not have to pay $100+ for a cable to connect an external monitor I don't need and then more of the same for each extra peripheral. I was able to get a quad core i7 at 3.4Ghz without it being prohibitively expensive with a nice GPU and I don't have to worry about my Mac managing the builtin video versus the external GPU because of battery consumption. There are many other reasons why the iMac was the right choice for me and apparently millions of others.

 

I wouldn't be so pompous to say that everyone should buy a laptop or a Mac Pro. I still see a lot of value in the iMac and the Mac Mini and apparently so does Apple and there customers agree with there dollars. These will not go away anytime soon cause there is still a place for them. The trend for growth is definitely towards more laptops and less desktop (only) computers but you are seriously mistaken if you think that the day of the personal computer in the form of a desktop is gone.

post #80 of 88

HP began in a tiny garage in Palo Alto.

 

On it's way to becoming......

 

A tiny garage in Palo Alto.

 

I made this quote when applying to HP in 1978.  When asked by an interviewer "what would happen if you were running HP".  My answer... "we would probably become a tiny garage in Palo Alto".

 

It took far greater business minds to finally deliver on my prediction.

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