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Apple witness builds Fidler tablet replica to disprove prior art claims

post #1 of 38
Thread Starter 
An Apple expert witness on Friday brought out a detailed recreation of the Fidler tablet concept in an effort to disprove Samsung's claims of prior art against the iPad.

In a somewhat surprising move, designer Peter Bressler brought out the replica when he was called to the stand for the second time on Friday as testimony in the Apple v. Samsung trial came to a close.

As noted by CNet, the reproduction was different than other exhibits seen during the case, including a number of phones and tablets presented by both parties to bolster their claims. Perhaps even more interesting is that Apple presented the Fidler concept recreation in testimony rather than Samsung.

Bressler, who said Samsung's designs are "substantially the same" as Apple's during testimony early in the trial, appears to have gone through a painstaking process to get the replica device built.

"This is a duplicate that I had created of Mr. Fidler's original tablet," Bressler said of the reproduction. "I went to Missouri with a model maker laser scanner and digitized the surface of [the] model, photographed them, measured them so that we could fabricated it to be exactly the same...right down to the scratches and the paint."

The designer used the custom built replica to point out how the concept does not reflect the tablet described in Apple's design patent, pointing out the obvious cutouts on the side of the device used to house memory cards and a stylus. Also contended was the edge-to-edge glass panel seen on the iPad, a feature not present with the Fidler tablet.

Fidler Concept
Fidler tablet concept. | Source: Apple v. Samsung court documents


Samsung brought the Fidler device up during proceedings as an example of prior art against the iPad's design, claiming Apple's tablet wasn't the first to employ rounded edges and a flat display. In addition to the concept unit, the Korean company also pointed to Compaq's TC1000 Windows tablet as an argument to invalidate the iPad's design patents.

Both parties are scheduled to present their respective closing arguments in court on Tuesday, with jury deliberations to follow.
post #2 of 38

W-O-W!

post #3 of 38
BAM!


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post #4 of 38

That is a really smart move. Should nip this fidler crap in the bud. Should.....

post #5 of 38

Well, there will still be vodka....for Samsung. HA!

 

 


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post #6 of 38
It'd be funny if the jury was left with an iPad, Galaxy Tab, and these so-called prior art tablets like the TC1000 and Fiddler mockup during deliberations. Common sense will kick in when they can touch and feel the real thing, not just see it in photographs at a distance.

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post #7 of 38

After this case is over, there's a certain UK judge who needs to have a closer examination of this "uncool" model, preferably at high velocity to the back of his head.

 

Might knock some sense into that idiot.

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post #8 of 38

Apple did bring in a parade of witnesses Friday like they had planned on doing. The Samscum lawyers, with no time left on their clock, sat there like dummies and could dispute only a single thing, so, to the jury, it looked like Samscum's lawyers agreed with the testimony. What a great image for Apple to leave in the jury's minds.

 

One witness,Richard Donaldson, a former lead patents attorney for Texas Instruments Inc.testified, "Samsung Electronics Co Ltd abused its "monopoly power" and demanded an unreasonable royalty from Apple Inc for the use of wireless patents in the iPhone, hurting the device's commercial prospects."

 

Another Apple witness,New York University professor Janusz Ordover likened that rate - equivalent to $14 per $600 iPhone - to a "holdup."

"Samsung's conduct distorted the decision making process" in setting standards, said Ordover, a former deputy assistant attorney general for the Justice Department's antitrust division. "It enabled Samsung's technology to be introduced, to become part of the standard. They have acquired holdup power."

 

"If other companies were to determine that this is a reasonable royalty, then the total royalty on the iPhone would be something like 50 percent," Donaldson testified. "It's neither fair nor reasonable because you could not be successful in the market."

 

Other expert witnesses included Michael Walker, a former senior Vodafone Group Plc research executive, who from 2008 to 2011 chaired the European telecoms standards authority. He said Samsung failed to disclose in a timely fashion the patents referred to by Donaldson.

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post #9 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

After this case is over, there's a certain UK judge who needs to have a closer examination of this "uncool" model, preferably at high velocity to the back of his head.

Might knock some sense into that idiot.

He may not be an idiot. Remember there are different laws, a different culture, and there are different lawyers (I assume) presenting and defending the case differently. I think even what Apple was suing for is somewhat different.

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post #10 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


He may not be an idiot. Remember there are different laws, a different culture, and there are different lawyers (I assume) presenting and defending the case differently. I think even what Apple was suing for is somewhat different.

 

If he couldn't determine a difference between this mock up and the detailed specifics of Apple's design patents, it indicates that he only used a cursory overview when allowing it as "prior art".

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post #11 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


He may not be an idiot. Remember there are different laws, a different culture, and there are different lawyers (I assume) presenting and defending the case differently. I think even what Apple was suing for is somewhat different.

Indeed. It was only just recently that America was pretty much the only major nation with a first-to-invent patent system whereas the rest of the world is first-to-file.

post #12 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

If he couldn't determine a difference between this mock up and the detailed specifics of Apple's design patents, it indicates that he only used a cursory overview when allowing it as "prior art".

This mockup was made for the United States trial, not the UK one.
post #13 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

If he couldn't determine a difference between this mock up and the detailed specifics of Apple's design patents, it indicates that he only used a cursory overview when allowing it as "prior art".

We need to consider that Apple's legal team was simply ineffective in presenting the case.


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post #14 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


We need to consider that Apple's legal team was simply ineffective in presenting the case.
"It's not what you know, it's what you can prove." ~Alonzo, from Training Day

 

I tend to agree as well.  I think that case was not as exhaustive as the one going on here in terms of presenting evidence.  I think if Apple's legal team went to the level it's going right now in terms of evidence-gathering, I think the outcome would have been different. 

post #15 of 38
Also, hill69, remember that there are grounds other than prior art for invalidating a patent. Typical requirements include non-obviousness and originality.
post #16 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

It'd be funny if the jury was left with an iPad, Galaxy Tab, and these so-called prior art tablets like the TC1000 and Fiddler mockup during deliberations. .

It could happen.

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post #17 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

I tend to agree as well.  I think that case was not as exhaustive as the one going on here in terms of presenting evidence.  I think if Apple's legal team went to the level it's going right now in terms of evidence-gathering, I think the outcome would have been different. 

A great example of how much variance a case can have is Apple Corps v. Apple Computer. Apple (Computer) ultimately won but it wasn't cut and try over the decades and lawsuits. Wikipedia does a decent job of detailing the facts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer

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post #18 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

If he couldn't determine a difference between this mock up and the detailed specifics of Apple's design patents, it indicates that he only used a cursory overview when allowing it as "prior art".

Again you seem to be missing that the UK has different laws and definitions. So he may be 100% correct under UK law

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post #19 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


He may not be an idiot. Remember there are different laws, a different culture, and there are different lawyers (I assume) presenting and defending the case differently. I think even what Apple was suing for is somewhat different.

...even a different patent. US design patents aren't applicable to lawsuits in other countries AFAIK. They have their own versions which may or may not describe the same claims.

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post #20 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

...even a different patent. US design patents aren't applicable to lawsuits in other countries AFAIK. They have their own versions which may or may not describe the same claims.

 

Though, through WIPO there exists a system supporting the registering of a patent in multiple countries at once.

post #21 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


He may not be an idiot. Remember there are different laws, a different culture, and there are different lawyers (I assume) presenting and defending the case differently. I think even what Apple was suing for is somewhat different.

 

Agreed. Anyone who thinks that Colin Birss, QC is an idiot doesn't know the English legal system at all well. 

post #22 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigjag69 View Post

*whine* *kick/scream* *crying*

Buzz off...

post #23 of 38
Quote:
"I went to Missouri with a model maker laser scanner and digitized the surface of [the] model, photographed them, measured them so that we could fabricated it to be exactly the same.."

post #24 of 38
Originally Posted by jakeb View Post
[image]

 

And these degenerates actually want a SMALLER iPad! Unforgivable. lol.gif

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post #25 of 38

I just got back from my exchange daughter's international student back-to-school night. Most of the international students in the school are Korean because they cannot get into Korean universities due to very high academic standards. The main topic of the night was plagiarism, lying, cheating and copying because these are not immoral in their culture. The belief is that "the ends justify the means". In other words, you do what you need to in order to get ahead. We parents had to sit and listen to this over and over (my daughter is South African).  If someone calls them out on it, it's a HUGE deal because they dishonor that person.

 

This is what we are seeing in this trial.  There is a HUGE cultural difference between Korea and America, and this is evident in the culture of both companies. What is on trial right now is if what is culturally acceptable in Korea is acceptable in America.  The school my daughter attends forbids it and issues demerits for lying and cheating. Students have been sent home for plagiarizing.  I think Samsung can learn a lot from that model.

 

My daughter stated afterwards "how could they even think that this is acceptable behavior?"... I think the jury will make the same statement.

post #26 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkichline View Post

I just got back from my exchange daughter's international student back-to-school night. Most of the international students in the school are Korean because they cannot get into Korean universities due to very high academic standards. The main topic of the night was plagiarism, lying, cheating and copying because these are not immoral in their culture. The belief is that "the ends justify the means". In other words, you do what you need to in order to get ahead. We parents had to sit and listen to this over and over (my daughter is South African).  If someone calls them out on it, it's a HUGE deal because they dishonor that person.

 

This is what we are seeing in this trial.  There is a HUGE cultural difference between Korea and America, and this is evident in the culture of both companies. What is on trial right now is if what is culturally acceptable in Korea is acceptable in America.  The school my daughter attends forbids it and issues demerits for lying and cheating. Students have been sent home for plagiarizing.  I think Samsung can learn a lot from that model.

 

My daughter stated afterwards "how could they even think that this is acceptable behavior?"... I think the jury will make the same statement.

But that's the thing, if you are wanting to do business in another country you MUST adhere to their rules even if they are contrary to your rules or culture.

 

I as a New Zealander can't do as I wish by New Zealand law if I live in America because I am not on New Zealand soil unless I'm at the NZ Embassy. The fact that copying might be reasonable in Korea doesn't mean they can copy in America.

 

Interesting experience you gave. It really does show how all of this could simply be a cultural matter which isn't really an excuse.

post #27 of 38

^ Nah, you just showed yourself to be an idiot that people will simply put on their block list.

 

You can continue to post all the garbage you want because most people won't see it anyway. How does it feel to be irrelevant?

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post #28 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


The designer used the custom built replica to point out how the concept does not reflect the tablet described in Apple's design patent, pointing out the obvious cutouts on the side of the device used to house memory cards and a stylus. Also contended was the edge-to-edge glass panel seen on the iPad, a feature not present with the Fidler tablet.
 

Really?

Are these things different enough to toss it out as prior art?

Edge-to-edge glass vs. an inch from the edge?

How about 1/2 inch? 1/4"?

post #29 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigjag69 View Post

aw poor baby...did my post hurt your feelings?

It wasn't a post. Like he said.

Stop embarrassing your kind.
post #30 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigjag69 View Post

apple is so retarded.....they claim to have the rectangular shape with curved edges...yet moan about cutouts for a memory card....what sore losers
This meme gets repeated so often. If you don't even have an original thought and just parrot some statement by a Samsung executive, then save us from reading your drivel.

As this article nicely highlights, the features in the design patent are not just the shape and corners. Things like the edge-to-edge glass and no edge cutouts are key components. Obvious? So obvious no one else did it before Apple. Natural progression? So natural after Apple did it.

Add in the packaging design, the cable design, and the icon design and it's just plain silly to claim Samsung didn't copy.
post #31 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

 

Agreed. Anyone who thinks that Colin Birss, QC is an idiot doesn't know the English legal system at all well. 


Anyone who thinks his opinion matters when assessing professionnals like this judge might have ego issues. Just saying.

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post #32 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by focher View Post

This meme gets repeated so often. If you don't even have an original thought and just parrot some statement by a Samsung executive, then save us from reading your drivel.
As this article nicely highlights, the features in the design patent are not just the shape and corners. Things like the edge-to-edge glass and no edge cutouts are key components. Obvious? So obvious no one else did it before Apple. Natural progression? So natural after Apple did it.
Add in the packaging design, the cable design, and the icon design and it's just plain silly to claim Samsung didn't copy.


I tend to agree with that, but on the other hand you read "samscum" so much on this forum that parrots and drivel seem to be pretty much equally shared among pro/con samsung ...

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post #33 of 38
Quote:

"This is a duplicate that I had created of Mr. Fidler's original tablet," Bressler said of the reproduction. "I went to Missouri with a model maker laser scanner and digitized the surface of [the] model, photographed them, measured them so that we could fabricated it to be exactly the same...right down to the scratches and the paint."

Wasn't that what Samsung did with iPad?

 

OK, I'm out :p

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post #34 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


I tend to agree with that, but on the other hand you read "samscum" so much on this forum that parrots and drivel seem to be pretty much equally shared among pro/con samsung ...

 

Why would "pro-Samsung" people give a damn what is written on an Apple-oriented website? It's not like they are going to change anyone's minds. Alot of wasted time/energy/money posting here.

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post #35 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigjag69 View Post

apple is so retarded.....they claim to have the rectangular shape with curved edges...yet moan about cutouts for a memory card....what sore losers

 

Yeah imagine that and the bezel being of equal width, top and bottom, designed so when it's shown upside down, say across a table, the bezel looks the same, part of Apple's design because they thought about that.

 

The designers of the Fidler obviously never thought of that, Apple did and patented it as part of the design.

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post #36 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


I tend to agree with that, but on the other hand you read "samscum" so much on this forum that parrots and drivel seem to be pretty much equally shared among pro/con samsung ...

Yeah, because Samsung hasn't either settled, or been convicted of price fixing three separate times already.  Or obstructing investigations.

 

I don't know why anyone stands up for these guys - they have no problem breaking laws to screw over other competitors and end users alike.

post #37 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineShedFred View Post

Yeah, because Samsung hasn't either settled, or been convicted of price fixing three separate times already.  Or obstructing investigations.

 

I don't know why anyone stands up for these guys - they have no problem breaking laws to screw over other competitors and end users alike.

But Samsung are "the little guys", according to the poor deluded anti-Apple brigade.

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post #38 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


Again you seem to be missing that the UK has different laws and definitions. So he may be 100% correct under UK law

If I remember correctly, the judge did not decide against the proposition that the Samsung Galaxy Tab was copy of the Apple iPad; he decided it was a bad copy. However, the major point of contention appeared to be that a normal user might be confused by the excess of similarities between the two products: the judge here decided that a normally intelligent person, with a modicum of artistic sensibility, would quickly determine that the Galaxy Tab was gravely inadequate as an iPad substitute, and therefore not be so mistaken.

 

Cheers

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