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Overly complex verdict questionnaire could confuse jury, judge says [u]

post #1 of 47
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Apple v. Samsung presiding Judge Lucy Koh on Monday voiced her opinion on the parties' tentative jury verdict forms, saying the 21-page document could confuse jurors with its complexity.

Update: Judge Koh late Monday released another draft of the verdict form (see bottom of article) to be discussed on Tuesday.

Apple and Samsung are still in the process of hammering out a final version of the form, but what they presented to Judge Koh on Monday may add another layer of unnecessary complexity to a case already loaded with technical patent minutiae.

According to in-court reports from CNET, Judge Koh herself admitted to being somewhat confused by the tentative verdict form.

"I am worried we might have a seriously confused jury here," Judge Koh said. "I have trouble understanding this, and I have spent a little more time with this than they have." She described the 21-page document as being "so complex, and there are so many pieces here."

The jurors will be tasked with deciding which patents, if any, were infringed upon by devices made by both companies. Apple is asserting three utility patents and four design patents against over 20 Samsung smartphones and tablets, while the Korean company is leveraging five utility patents against certain iPhone, iPad and iPod touch models.



"Looking at the verdict form, this is even more granular than anything Samsung has proposed," said Apple attorney Michael Jacobs, referring to the Korean company's proposed verdict form.

Closing arguments are scheduled for Tuesday, with each side having two hours to wrap up their case. Jury deliberations will begin soon after to be followed by a verdict that could come as soon as this week.

Updated Verdict Form
post #2 of 47
I wonder if the jury is made up of Apple lovers and Apple haters like the rest of the USA and their decisions were made before the trial even started.
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post #3 of 47
Why is the jury being asked to decide if Apple infringed on Samsung's patents? Isn't Apple the plaintiff in this lawsuit?

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post #4 of 47

Judge Koh needs to stop being a pussy and go ahead and make a verdict. She is avoiding it at all costs and it PISSES ME OFF

 

 


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post #5 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I wonder if the jury is made up of Apple lovers and Apple haters like the rest of the USA and their decisions were made before the trial even started.

I'm under the assumption most people just don't care about either company one way or the other.

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post #6 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

According to in-court reports from CNET, Judge Koh herself admitted to being somewhat confused......


You can say that again.
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post #7 of 47
I fell asleep by page 10.
post #8 of 47
Samsung can't even design a form properly. Pitiful.

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post #9 of 47

Jeesh. I was on a jury today on a sexual assault case and there were only two verdicts to reach. 

post #10 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by logandigges View Post

Judge Koh needs to stop being a pussy and go ahead and make a verdict. She is avoiding it at all costs and it PISSES ME OFF

 

It's Jury trial.  That can't happen. The Jury decides the "matters of fact"... that is, whether anyone infringes on anyone, does damage, willfully infringes, etc.  

The Jury can even determine the value of those damages ( as they are requested to do in this trial, if you read the questionnaire )

The Judge isn't deciding anything but matters of law...making sure the trail proceeds properly and that the jury isn't manipulated.

The Judge can't change what the jury says or does unless it's found to be unlawful.

 

This is why the song and dance is coming from Samsung ( and to a lesser degree, Apple ). They are presenting amazingly complex and subtle things to a jury, and some might say they're also trying to misdirect and manipulate the jury.

 

I do think Judge Koh is too tolerant of Samsung's behavior. She's trying to make sure a "more than fair" trial, and I think that's wrong.

post #11 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I'm under the assumption most people just don't care about either company one way or the other.

I'd like to believe you are right.
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post #12 of 47
Have been on three juries so far, and it is amazing as to how little direction the judge/court gives the jury before they leave the court room and attempt to make a decision.
It is far less than you could possibly imagine.

Looking at this form
A) I pity this jury
B) I figure by splitting amongst all their assorted products Samsung is looking for inconsistencies in the decision which they can then appeal.

I wonder If the jury can request each of the products in question back to the jury room for review... I seriously doubt anyone knows all the Samsung products.

Could this be an attempt to get an "innocent by jury attrition" verdict? 1wink.gif
Tire the jury out, it's just so much easier to say no than to say yes and go through all this work to determine damages.

Oy!
post #13 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by logandigges View Post

Judge Koh needs to stop being a pussy and go ahead and make a verdict. She is avoiding it at all costs and it PISSES ME OFF

???

You are a law student obviously /s

Ever heard of a jury?
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post #14 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon_PhoneApart View Post

Jeesh. I was on a jury today on a sexual assault case and there were only two verdicts to reach. 

Here in Canada, the "I don't want to be on a Jury" in-joke seen in the US never happens. I've known at least three people in the US who has had Jury duty, and nobody in Canada.

This form seems like cruel and unusual punishment, and seems to assume more technical prowness of the jury than could reasonably be expected. Even when you see people on jury duty in fictional media, they're never given a 20 page exam. It's always something like "okay everyone, who thinks they're guilty?" Everyone puts a slip of paper into the hat, and either everyone agrees or disagrees, and then the rest of the story swings around the one juror trying to change everyone's mind.
post #15 of 47

Hey, but Android is about giving the consumer choice and that's good right?  So we have this 21 page form for you to fill out and make your choice. We've made it so easy for you because we have 1,000 people designing icons...

post #16 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Why is the jury being asked to decide if Apple infringed on Samsung's patents? Isn't Apple the plaintiff in this lawsuit?

FAILED
post #17 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I wonder if the jury is made up of Apple lovers and Apple haters like the rest of the USA and their decisions were made before the trial even started.

 

No, the jury is made up of Luddites that were found wandering aimlessly and naked in an Arkansas swamp. They were selected because they are incapable of making an informed opinion or forming a sentence that requires interior punctuation.

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post #18 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misa View Post


Here in Canada, the "I don't want to be on a Jury" in-joke seen in the US never happens. I've known at least three people in the US who has had Jury duty, and nobody in Canada.
This form seems like cruel and unusual punishment, and seems to assume more technical prowness of the jury than could reasonably be expected. Even when you see people on jury duty in fictional media, they're never given a 20 page exam. It's always something like "okay everyone, who thinks they're guilty?" Everyone puts a slip of paper into the hat, and either everyone agrees or disagrees, and then the rest of the story swings around the one juror trying to change everyone's mind.

 

Nothing personal but as a person living in Canada I don't know what you are talking about.  The jury system up here is pretty much the same as the US.  Just because you haven't known anyone that's been on one up here ... well, that's a pretty meaningless statistic isn't it?  

 

Also, it's hard to tell from the bad writing in the main article whether the form is actually a Samsung one or an Apple one or a joint one (it seems to imply the latter), but I don't get why everyone is talking about how "complex" it is.  

 

It's a grid for cripes sake.  You fill in the grid with "yes" and/or "no."  The deciding factor in the yeses and nos, is written at the top of each grid (what patent the grid refers to).  

 

If the jury is too dumb to figure out a grid of yeses and nos, or is unsure what the patents that the trial is based on are all about then all is lost.  Might as well throw dice if the jury is as dim or "challenged" as many people here seem to be.  

 

I repeat ... it's a grid.  

 

The only thing simpler would be ticks and x's instead of yes and no.  

post #19 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon_PhoneApart View Post

Jeesh. I was on a jury today on a sexual assault case and there were only two verdicts to reach. 

 

 

Was it:
(A) a legitimate sex assault?

(B) an illegitimate sex assault?

 

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post #20 of 47

Ah screw this, I want to go home & play Xbox…

 

yes, no, yes, no, yes, no…

post #21 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Droid View Post

Ah screw this, I want to go home & play Xbox…

yes, no, yes, no, yes, no…

Like this. Skip to the 1 min mark.
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post #22 of 47

That probably has the right ratio of yes no.

 

Apple & Samsung are both behaving like spoilt children, it's hard to take them seriously.

post #23 of 47
That is one complicated set of questions - I hope the jury members all kept detailed notes. Also, an interesting condition specified on page 1:
Quote:
We, the jury, unanimously agree to the answers to the following questions and return them under the instructions of this Court as our verdict in this case.

I lost the will to count the number of actual questions, but it's clearly in the hundreds. I cannot imagine the jury being unanimous on all of them, so then what happens? This does look rather like Samsung's final effort to tie the entire trial in knots.
post #24 of 47
Originally Posted by Droid View Post
Apple & Samsung are both behaving like spoilt children, it's hard to take them seriously.

 

That's wrong. It's hard to take you seriously.

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post #25 of 47
I'll add an "Dude there are too many effin' like, things on this"
post #26 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by logandigges View Post

Judge Koh needs to stop being a pussy and go ahead and make a verdict. She is avoiding it at all costs and it PISSES ME OFF

This is a trial by jury, so it is their job, not hers, to make the verdict

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post #27 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Samsung can't even design a form properly. Pitiful.


They're waiting for Apple to do it first, then making a form just like it, but not quite as good.

post #28 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

That's wrong. It's hard to take you seriously.



Are you enough of a fanboy to declare Apple hasn't misbehaved recently when it comes to patents and trials?

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post #29 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by logandigges View Post

Judge Koh needs to stop being a pussy and go ahead and make a verdict. She is avoiding it at all costs and it PISSES ME OFF


I'm sure sad for you.

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post #30 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

Nothing personal but as a person living in Canada I don't know what you are talking about.  The jury system up here is pretty much the same as the US.  Just because you haven't known anyone that's been on one up here ... well, that's a pretty meaningless statistic isn't it?  

 

Also, it's hard to tell from the bad writing in the main article whether the form is actually a Samsung one or an Apple one or a joint one (it seems to imply the latter), but I don't get why everyone is talking about how "complex" it is.  

 

It's a grid for cripes sake.  You fill in the grid with "yes" and/or "no."  The deciding factor in the yeses and nos, is written at the top of each grid (what patent the grid refers to).  

 

If the jury is too dumb to figure out a grid of yeses and nos, or is unsure what the patents that the trial is based on are all about then all is lost.  Might as well throw dice if the jury is as dim or "challenged" as many people here seem to be.  

 

I repeat ... it's a grid.  

 

The only thing simpler would be ticks and x's instead of yes and no.  


I think the jurors should be required to fillout a captcha with a math question, a programming requirement and maybe a bit of genetics knowledge checks. Just to be on the safe side :p

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post #31 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


I think the jurors should be required to fillout a captcha with a math question, a programming requirement and maybe a bit of genetics knowledge checks. Just to be on the safe side 1tongue.gif

I prefer a much simpler approach:
Quote:
Is Samsung:

_____ Guilty

_____ Very Guilty

_____ Guilty, Guilty, Guilty



Should Samsung's penalty be:

______ $2.5 billion

______ $7.5 billion (tripled for willful infringement)

______ $1 googol (since they licensed their OS from Google)

______ Off with their heads
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post #32 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by logandigges View Post

Judge Koh needs to stop being a pussy and go ahead and make a verdict. She is avoiding it at all costs and it PISSES ME OFF

But both sides requested a jury trial, so the jury has to do their thing first.

At this point, Judge Koh's ruling is going to be to tie the lawyers up by their toes and give each member of the jury one wack with a big stick per question per lawyer.... The remaining lawyers can then negotiate or have the jury "decide" again!

To make it fair, justice should be blindfolded, it will be like a piñata party. More people will want to be on her juries too!
post #33 of 47
Originally Posted by mabhatter View Post
To make it fair, justice should be blindfolded, it will be like a piñata party. More people will want to be on her juries too!

 

But instead of a donkey, it's two pinatas: the prosecution and the defense. 

 

And instead of a stick, she's using her sword.


And instead of candy… 

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post #34 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

 

Nothing personal but as a person living in Canada I don't know what you are talking about.  The jury system up here is pretty much the same as the US.  Just because you haven't known anyone that's been on one up here ... well, that's a pretty meaningless statistic isn't it?  

 

 

No it isn't "pretty much the same". In Canada, juries are used in civil suits only exceptionally. Since most suits are civil suits, the number of jury trials in the US is significantly higher. Original poster's observations are quite correct. I will corroborate by saying that I know only a few people who have been called for jury duty and they were criminal trials in all cases.

 

I like the Canadian system because in most cases the subject matter is miles above the jury's head and they are ill-suited to pass judgement on highly technical matters such as patents, contract law, etc. Lawyers need to argue the technical merits much more and focus less on making complicated issues comprehensible to Johnny Lunchbucket.

post #35 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by barthrh View Post

No it isn't "pretty much the same". In Canada, juries are used in civil suits only exceptionally. Since most suits are civil suits, the number of jury trials in the US is significantly higher. Original poster's observations are quite correct. I will corroborate by saying that I know only a few people who have been called for jury duty and they were criminal trials in all cases.

 

I like the Canadian system because in most cases the subject matter is miles above the jury's head and they are ill-suited to pass judgement on highly technical matters such as patents, contract law, etc. Lawyers need to argue the technical merits much more and focus less on making complicated issues comprehensible to Johnny Lunchbucket.

New form:

Is Samsung evil? [  ] yes  [  ] definitely [  ] can I have fries with my burger

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post #36 of 47

Holy crap.  Imagine being a juror getting those instructions after a two week trial.  My first reaction would be "WTF didn't you give us this before the testimony started so we'd have a prayer of paying attention to the right stuff?"

 

I feel exceptionally sorry for the foreman of the jury.  As others have pointed out, the challenge is to reach consensus on the answers to literally hundreds of questions.  Did the Samsung SUX9000 violate patent '409?  Did the Samsung9000a violate patent '409? etc., etc.  And at least half the jurors will be primarily interested in being done with this whole thing and haven't absorbed enough information to make meaningful assessment of any of the questions.  What a nightmare.
 

post #37 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by logandigges View Post

Judge Koh needs to stop being a pussy and go ahead and make a verdict. She is avoiding it at all costs and it PISSES ME OFF

The trial is in the United States... not Iran, the former Soviet Union, Mao's China, etc.

post #38 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwingrav View Post


They're waiting for Apple to do it first, then making a form just like it, but not quite as good.


Well played... very good!

post #39 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by barthrh View Post

No it isn't "pretty much the same". In Canada, juries are used in civil suits only exceptionally. Since most suits are civil suits, the number of jury trials in the US is significantly higher. Original poster's observations are quite correct. I will corroborate by saying that I know only a few people who have been called for jury duty and they were criminal trials in all cases.

 

I like the Canadian system because in most cases the subject matter is miles above the jury's head and they are ill-suited to pass judgement on highly technical matters such as patents, contract law, etc. Lawyers need to argue the technical merits much more and focus less on making complicated issues comprehensible to Johnny Lunchbucket.

 

Well said. It is completely beyond me how they expect a bunch of laypeople to be able to understand, let alone pass proper and fair judgement on matters so complex. For goodness sakes man, people study for years and years to be a patent lawyer to be able to interpret and understand patents and the law and you're gonna ask a bunch of people who just want to get the F#%^ out of there and get back to their families and jobs - to make a decision that they really can ONLY make on an emotional level based on how well crafted the lawyers' speeches were? If that's the definition of justice in the free world, just shoot me already. lol.gif
 
Most other countries around the world have abolished trial by jury, by the way, because they realise that it doesn't work.
 
And in a criminal case, I wouldn't like to be on the jury, then have to watch my back everywhere I go. What if it's a mafia case? Man, it's like the world has gone mad!
 
post #40 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

The trial is in the United States... not Iran, the former Soviet Union, Mao's China, etc.

 

Newsflash - the US of A doesn't automatically do everything correctly and perfectly. They have made lots of mistakes in their past in the name of democracy... and God, so let's not start pointing fingers.
 
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