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South Korean court finds both Apple and Samsung guilty of patent infringement

post #1 of 77
Thread Starter 
In what could be a harbinger of the U.S. Apple v. Samsung trial, a South Korean court on Friday found both companies were guilty of infringing on each others' patents, banning sales of Apple's iPhone 4 and iPad 2 as well as a number of Samsung smartphones and tablets.

While the win for both parties comes with slight financial damages equivalent to a slap on the wrist, the court decision could be a sign of things to come in a high-stakes U.S. federal case as the two suits involve the same issues, reports The Wall Street Journal.

Especially telling was the three-judge panel's ruling that there was "no possibility" that a consumer would confuse the two companies' smartphones, and that Samsung's UI iconography doesn't infringe on Apple's patents. The two claims are at the heart of the Cupertino tech giant's U.S. case. The final tally had Apple infringing on two Samsung patents, with Samsung infringing on one Apple property.

Samsung was found in violation of Apple's "rubber-banding" patent, a point of contention in the counterpart U.S. suit that saw hours of expert witness testimony as counsel tried to sway jury opinion. The judgment stopped South Korean sales of Samsung's Galaxy S, Galaxy S II and Galaxy Nexus smartphones and Galaxy Tab and Galaxy Tab 10.1 tablets.

Apple was ordered to stop sales of the iPhone 4 and iPad 2 for infringing on two Samsung wireless technology patents.

Apple iPhone 4
Apple iPad 2
The iPhone 4 and iPad 2 were still up for sale on Apple's Korean website as of Friday. | Source: Apple


The Korean electronics giant sued Apple in its home country in response to the iPhone maker's April 2011 suit that claimed Samsung copied the look and feel of the iPhone and iPad. A long list of complaints and countersuits followed and grew to become the worldwide court struggle the two companies face today.

While it may appear the Seoul court had trouble coming to Friday's decision, the Journal notes cases going through South Korea's trial system must endure a slow and laborious road to judgment. Cases are brought to a panel of judges and hearings are infrequent. Protocol is similar to other court systems around the world as judges hear arguments and ask questions of attorneys, but South Korean disputes involve comparatively less evidence. Apple and Samsung reportedly met in court an average of once a month with the sessions lasting only one or two hours.

As far as damages, Apple was ordered to pay out 20 million won, or $17,650 for each patent violation for a total of $35,300, while Samsung is to pay 25 million won, or $22,000 for its infringement. The numbers are far from the 100 million won, or about $90,000, each company sought at the start of the trial.

The Seoul court's ruling may be different than jury findings in the U.S. case, but the stakes in the California suit are substantially higher as that outcome could see damages and revenue repercussions from possible injunctions add up to billions of dollars in losses. The U.S. trial is currently in jury deliberations after closing arguments wrapped up on Tuesday.
post #2 of 77
So if none of the products are the latest products from each company, it's just business as usual plus probably some demand to license the patents in question in Korea.
post #3 of 77
Regardless of this opaque ruling...l

According to this article, Samsung produces 20% of Korean GDP.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/07/whoa-samsung-is-responsible-for-20-of-south-koreas-economy/260552/

Samsung has been accused of bribing Judges and Politicians.

Samsung former bigwig got 3 years suspended sentence and $100 million + fine, and now he's in charge of their Olympic committee overseeing the upcoming games that they are hosting (2018? Winter?)
post #4 of 77

No surprises here.

post #5 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcallows View Post

No surprises here.

I think there is. From what I've been told Samsung is king in SoKo (did I just coin that?) and patent infringement doesn't seem as strict as in the US and yet they found them guilty of infringing on the big bad American company. It could be construed that they threw Samsung a bone. To me, that sounds like it really bodes well for the US trial.
Edited by SolipsismX - 8/24/12 at 5:59am

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post #6 of 77

Rubber banding is a good patent to have hold of. Using any android phone without it seems cheaper and nastier than the rest of them

post #7 of 77
iPhone 4 and iPad 2 banned eh, just as well they have the iPad3 and upcoming iP5

What a load of bollocks. Let the consumer decide. Lawyers are happy though.
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post #8 of 77

 sounds like an old fasioned 'Shake Down'

post #9 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Underhill View Post

What a load of bollocks. Let the consumer decide. Lawyers are happy though.

It's a good thing they are on each company's payroll (assumed) as getting 25% of the win would be a complete waste. I guess the banning works for these cases but I would have expected a higher value. Does it even take Apple a whole minute to earn the ≈$15k penalty in profit?

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post #10 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Especially telling was the three-judge panel's ruling that there was "no possibility" that a consumer would confuse the two companies' smartphones...

 

I'm calling horsepucky on this "opinion" because I've seen people walk into an AT&T store (albeit not tech-savvy people) on the hunt for an iPhone and walking straight up to a Galaxy 2 demo unit and saying "Terrific, you have iPhones." It happens, and these three judges just said "Oh, no it doesn't. Such a scenario is impossible."

 

How I read the headline in my head: "Court in Samsung's backyard says that Samsung isn't guilty of copying the iPhone." Big surprise.

post #11 of 77
the cost of a new car and ban on last gen products? These penalties almost seem to not even be worth the time of going to court. I guess this just falls under the "defend it or lose it" category.

I don't think we can read into this in any way, with regard to the CA trial. differnet country, diff laws. jury vs judges.

At least this judgement will quiet some of the racist remarks going around this forum. well... probably not but we could hope.

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I own...

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They all are used regularly and each have their place. Competition is good.

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post #12 of 77

OK, so… now what?

post #13 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I think there is. From what I've been told Samsung is king in SoKo (did I just coin that?) and patent infringement doesn't seem as strict as in the US and yet they found them guilty of infringing on the big bad American company. It could be construed that they threw Samsung here. To me, that sounds like it really bodes well for the US trial.

 

This is a case going on worldwide in many courts.  Its possible that they could not risk telling Apple to get lost... and looking like they were bought off or paid.  It was safer to at least find 1 thing they could do like this to make it look like they were not biased or paid off at all, but make sure in the end Apple had to pay out more than they had to get paid.  Its possible that if this wasn't in the news, the outcome would be very different, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if this were the case.

post #14 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacepower View Post

Regardless of this opaque ruling...l
According to this article, Samsung produces 20% of Korean GDP.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/07/whoa-samsung-is-responsible-for-20-of-south-koreas-economy/260552/
Samsung has been accused of bribing Judges and Politicians.
Samsung former bigwig got 3 years suspended sentence and $100 million + fine, and now he's in charge of their Olympic committee overseeing the upcoming games that they are hosting (2018? Winter?)
Oh Jeez, thank you for all that informed insight about South Korea, their rigged judiciary system and corrupted people (sic). Some individuals are really pushing that crap down a whole new level...

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain
post #15 of 77

Asia is the Wild West when it comes to IP - that pretty much sums up their take on other peoples innovation!

They aren't capable of their own - so they just steal it.

 

The judges in South Korea - paid lackies with absolutely no credibility or fundamental concept of justice.

Justice in SOuth Korea = whose paying my golf membership!

 

What a joke! 

post #16 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


".....Samsung is king in SoKo (did I just coin that?) and...."

 

Quick...trademark it¡  

 

;-)

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post #17 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi View Post


"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain

I've liked that quote ever since I read it. However I feel this one speaks more towards the intentions of some of the post I've read here against SoKo.


“Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts as a last resource pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and happy to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.” 
― Arthur Schopenhauer
post #18 of 77
SoKo has a KaCo... Surprise!
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post #19 of 77
There is nothing in that trial that would lead anyone to construe that its result would be similiar, or have any bearing on the US trial.
post #20 of 77

There is a point to settle outside the court...

post #21 of 77
This article misses the big picture of what is going on. Read Foss Patents latest post for a better understanding

The situation is not good and could result in Apple withdrawing from the Korean market

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post #22 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogchop99 View Post

Asia is the Wild West when it comes to IP - that pretty much sums up their take on other peoples innovation!
They aren't capable of their own - so they just steal it.

The judges in South Korea - paid lackies with absolutely no credibility or fundamental concept of justice.
Justice in SOuth Korea = whose paying my golf membership!

What a joke! 

enjoy those screens and processors and other enabling tech from these non innovative asians.
post #23 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post


enjoy those screens and processors and other enabling tech from these non innovative asians.

 

Is ARM asian?

 

Seeing as how these processors are mostly based on their reference designz.

 

Apple designz their own stuff and get it made to order, Samsung makes some of it in much the same way as you can ask for a Big Mick without pickles at MacDowells.

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post #24 of 77
I hope ETSI now take this up and fine Samsung for using the 3G patents against Apple
These patents are part of the 3G standard and hence under FRAND

Apple should not use this case as evidence of anti-trust actions by Samsung, and show both ETSI , the EU commission and maybe the FCC/FTA how bad Samsung are.
post #25 of 77

just uploaded on youtube, Jimmy Kimmel samsung add http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITm1QooF3tc&feature=g-all-u

post #26 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJWilkin View Post

I hope ETSI now take this up and fine Samsung for using the 3G patents against Apple
These patents are part of the 3G standard and hence under FRAND
Apple should not use this case as evidence of anti-trust actions by Samsung, and show both ETSI , the EU commission and maybe the FCC/FTA how bad Samsung are.

Nokia sought the same import and sales injunctions against Apple over FRAND-pledged IP. In that case they settled and cross-licensed with Nokia to avoid the chances that Apple products would be banned from the marketplace. In this case in Korea Apple chose to roll the dice. 

 

I don't agree with SEP"s being subjects for injunctions except in the extreme case that a company won't license under any circumstances. This isn't one of those cases AFAIK, so it just highlights problems with software patents in general.


Edited by Gatorguy - 8/24/12 at 3:21am
melior diabolus quem scies
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post #27 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi View Post


Oh Jeez, thank you for all that informed insight about South Korea, their rigged judiciary system and corrupted people (sic). Some individuals are really pushing that crap down a whole new level...
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain

 

It's about Samsung the company, if they were an English company and they did that in the UK, an American company who did it in the USA, a Russian company who did it in Russia, a Japanese company who did it in Japan or anywhere else on Earth, Samsung did what they did the FACT that they did it in South Korea has nothing whatsoever to do with racism.

 

The denial of the facts while playing the race card  is more a form of reverse racism

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post #28 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Is ARM asian?

Seeing as how these processors are mostly based on their reference designz.

Apple designz their own stuff and get it made to order, Samsung makes some of it in much the same way as you can ask for a Big Mick without pickles at MacDowells.

ARM is a British company based out of Cambridge
post #29 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuartf View Post


ARM is a British company based out of Cambridge

Founded by Apple and Acorn.

 

The question was giving context to the post I was replying to.

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post #30 of 77
We protect them form the north so they can rip us off. Enough now, and Apple stop giving them business, you are aiding and abetting the enemy. Chop them off.
post #31 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak View Post

This article misses the big picture of what is going on. Read Foss Patents latest post for a better understanding
The situation is not good and could result in Apple withdrawing from the Korean market

Read a little deeper.

Apple was found to have infringed FRAND patents. Every other country has determined that you can't get an injunction on FRAND patents. Since Apple never denied that they have to pay a license fee for FRAND, but merely wanted the court to determine a fair license fee, there was never any question of Apple's obligation to pay.

Samsung, OTOH, was found guilty of violating patents that are not FRAND and which Apple doesn't have to license.

There's a world of difference between the two infringements and they should not have been treated equally. More importantly, it's a little odd that S. Korea is the only country that has allowed an injunction for FRAND patents.
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post #32 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak View Post

This article misses the big picture of what is going on. Read Foss Patents latest post for a better understanding
The situation is not good and could result in Apple withdrawing from the Korean market

It's worth reading the Foss discussion:
http://www.fosspatents.com


And since googleguy says that Foss is a reliable source, the iHaters need to pay attention.
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post #33 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi View Post

Oh Jeez, thank you for all that informed insight about South Korea, their rigged judiciary system and corrupted people (sic). Some individuals are really pushing that crap down a whole new level...
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain

There was nothing racist in the OP's post, so I don't know where you are coming from. These problems, as well as the seemingly all-powerful position that Samsung occupies in SoKo(tm) are well-documented.

It's a shame that you chose to use such a fine quotation of a literary giant in an attempt to suppress discussion. In relation to which, I can say that I have lived in and traveled quite extensively around East Asia (including Seoul, which I enjoyed immensely), studied Asian languages, and so forth. Just because I am an outsider doesn't mean that I can't criticise aspects of these cultures, or that they have a blanket immunity to scrutiny, just as I expect outsiders will judge/criticise my own country of residence.
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post #34 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


It's worth reading the Foss discussion:
http://www.fosspatents.com
And since googleguy says that Foss is a reliable source, the iHaters need to pay attention.

Here we go.

"Top Anti-Android Blogger Florian Mueller is Being Paid by Oracle"

http://www.dailytech.com/Top+AntiAndroid+Blogger+Florian+Mueller+is+Being+Paid+by+Oracle/article24633.htm

post #35 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcallows View Post

No surprises here.


Do I smell xenophobia here? Of course, I'm certain the US court will not find Apple, the American company, to be in its right... No way that could happen. I mean, of course the refueling planes the US Army will use for the next 80 years are the more appropriate, better built Airbus, and not the Boeing ones that did not meet the requirements. Oh... oh, wait.

 

 

I think it's pretty much a balanced judgment that Korean Court issued, given the complexity of the matter, not to mention the political ramifications.

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post #36 of 77

Korean court ruling against its own? Fat chance!

post #37 of 77

The patents Apple infringed upon of Samsung I still can't figure out what the actual patents were.  They weren't that specific in the explanation on the articles that I have read.  

 

The only way a consumer can't be confused is that the Samsung says Samsung on it and the iPad has the Apple logo on it.

 

It is possible for someone to see the iPad, walk into a Store and the rep says they look similar and they do basically the same thing, but the Samsung is cheaper, and the customer might IGNORANTLY buy the Samsung and then find out AFTERWARDS (after the 30 day return policy is over).   This kind of scenario happens quite often in the RETAIL market since these reps try to push the product that they get paid a SPIFF on vs. the better quality product.


A simple demo, anyone can make one product better than the other, but if one REALLY does their homework, they'll usually pick the iPad, but only the more sophisticated buyers.

 

Unfortunately, Apple has to deal with the mentality of either untrained sales people at their resellers, contending with Sales Spiffs that Samsung often does, which is kind of a BRIBE to the sales rep, because sales reps aren't going to tell the customer WHY they are pushing the Samsung over the iPad, if they actually carry both products.  It's too bad these Spiff programs are quietly being done at the store level.  The average person that doesn't read what's going on the industry, doesn't know.

 

Handing out spiffs is usually because the company is a little desperate and needs to Spiff the sales rep to sell THEIR product vs the competition, because Samsung doesn't have tons of people walking in the store asking for their products by name as much as Apple does.

It's funny to walk into a verity of stores listening to the dialog between sales reps and customers at resellers that sell both products. Most of the time, the sales rep is CLUELESS about Apple products, which is why Apple has started the Store within a Store concept, because Apple supplies their own trained sales people because of this problem.

post #38 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by 845032 View Post

Here we go.


"Top Anti-Android Blogger Florian Mueller is Being Paid by Oracle"

http://www.dailytech.com/Top+AntiAndroid+Blogger+Florian+Mueller+is+Being+Paid+by+Oracle/article24633.htm

Take it up with googleguy. He thinks Foss is a great reference.

BTW, even if he is paid by Oracle, how does that refute what he said? Please point out the errors in his blog.
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post #39 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by 845032 View Post

Here we go.


"Top Anti-Android Blogger Florian Mueller is Being Paid by Oracle"

http://www.dailytech.com/Top+AntiAndroid+Blogger+Florian+Mueller+is+Being+Paid+by+Oracle/article24633.htm

And who's payroll are you on...?
post #40 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by 845032 View Post

Here we go.

"Top Anti-Android Blogger Florian Mueller is Being Paid by Oracle"

http://www.dailytech.com/Top+AntiAndroid+Blogger+Florian+Mueller+is+Being+Paid+by+Oracle/article24633.htm


Doesn't mean Mueller is dishonest... Until now, I think his pieces have been pretty fair to both parties. Are we going to see the argument that anyone who writes about tech law needs to be:

 

- not working in tech (might have a relationship to Apple or Microsoft or Nokia or Samsung or Oracle, direct or indirect)

- not working in law (same)

 

which would leave us with the same levelof "journalist competence" as we're used to?

 

Great.

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