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Apple's 7.85-inch iPad will in fact be named 'iPad mini' - report - Page 4

post #121 of 208
Originally Posted by jkichline View Post

Worst case scenario is no 3G or no 4G. Most people don't care and don't use it anyway.

 

That's a bit of a dangerous thing to say. I'm the one who is supposed to be "completely ignoring a subset of the userbase". lol.gif I'm not, but still.


Do you have some really, really reliable source where you've gotten that information?

 

Nothing more reliable than all these people saying it's happening at all, of course.


Cost: The new product will be less than the iPad 2 and the iPad 2 will most like stop being produced, or will maintain the $399 mark. I think you are assuming that technology does not change. Apple can produce a product that weighs less, is thinner, offers the same user experience if not better, updates all the ports and sensors and hits the same, if not cheaper price point.

 

Aside from the user experience, I'll grant you that everything else happens naturally over time. Whether it's actually possible to do (and whether it's a good idea to do) all at once right now is left to be seen.


If you do a lot of typing, get a keyboard…

 

I'll grant you that this is a partially valid rebuttal. However, then that's just one more thing to be carrying around, larger than the device itself, which means you may as well get the version large enough to type on in the first place. 


What you are also discounting is using this device to control a second screen with enhanced AirPlay, etc.

 

Hmm. … Hmm. Not sure where you're headed with that, but it could be interesting.


Originally Posted by paxman View Post
Like so many here declared the iPhone and the iPad few short years ago. 

 

Would you buy an iPhone without data and apps? Or, rather, one with a 2.5" screen? Remember, this is Apple. You want to compare me to the people that saw problems with the size/operation of the iPhone/iPad, but I was one of the ones fighting to show that the size/operation was right! Remember, this is… ugh, I said that already. That makes me really depressed… They spent years with these things. They chose the sizes, physical and screen, that they did because they felt they were the most right, and the public has responded in a way that shows Apple's accuracy. 

 

I wonder… and if this does not attach properly, or if it does, I'm going to transcribe it below anyway.

 

Regarding the infamous "sandpaper" comment. I've recently read many posts where people believe Jobs was talking about marketing successfully with this. He was not. He specifically stated that the size of the screen on 7" tablets… the physical size of the screen, not the resolution (though he does mention it), is insufficient to create "great tablet apps".  He goes on, then, to reiterate this and expand on it by stating that the 10" screen size is the minimum they believe is require to do that.

 

I'm not saying Apple can't change their minds, particularly since he's gone. I'm not saying Apple was wrong then, or that they thought they weren't. If post-Jobs Apple has come up with a way to get around that, they're certainly welcome (read: going) to try it, regardless of what that means. But it wasn't just Steve that did the research into the tablet screen sizes. It wasn't just Steve for whom everything went. There would have been a consensus at Apple that smaller screens don't work, otherwise they very well WOULD have released a smaller iPad in 2010!

 

One of the only things people complained about was the weight of the first-gen iPad; I imagine Apple would have loved to shave that down! And they have, in subsequent models. And they'll keep doing that. While I don't see how people who complain about the weight of an iPad have ever held a book before, I completely understand and agree with them in their drive to make it weigh less. Indeed, it weighing less will be the key to the use of the larger iPads that will dominate the future. But of everything else, that's one of the only good explanations I've seen for a smaller iPad, and it's just something that will naturally improve over time (wow, I get to use that out of the iPhone patent context…) with iPad (and all tech) development as a whole. 

 

Okay, transcript time, and thank heavens it's already written out.


Originally posted by Steve Jobs, Apple Q4 2010 Earnings Conference Call
Second, I'd like to comment on the avalanche of tablets poised to enter the market in the coming months.
 
First, it appears to be just a handful of credible entrance not exactly in avalanche. Second, almost all of them use 7-inch screen as compared to iPad and your 10-inch screen, let's start there.
 
One naturally thinks that a 7-inch screen would offer 70% of the benefits by the 10-inch screen. Unfortunately, this is far from the truth. The screen measurements are diagonal, so that a 7-inch screen is only 45% as large as iPad's 10-inch screen. You heard me right, just 45% as large. If you take an iPad and hold it up right in portrait view and draw an imaginary horizontal line halfway down the screen, the screens on 7-inch tablets are a bit smaller than the bottom half of the iPad display.
 
This size isn't sufficient to create great tablet apps, in our opinion. While one could increase the resolution of the display to make up for some of difference, it is meaningless unless your tablet also includes sandpaper, so that the user can sand down their fingers to around one quarter of their present size. Apple has done extensive user testing on touch interfaces over many years and we really understand this stuff. There are clear limits of how close you can physically place elements on a touchscreen before users cannot reliably tap, flick or pinch them. This is one of the key reasons we think the 10 inch screen size is the minimum size required to create great tablet app.
 
Third, every tablet user is also a smartphone user. No tablet can compete with the mobility of a smartphone. It's ease of fitting into your pocket or purse. It's unobtrusiveness when used in a crowd.
 
Given that all tablet users will already have smartphone in their pockets, giving up precious display area to fit a tablet in their pockets is clearly the wrong tradeoff. The 7-inch tablets, or Tweeners, too big to compete with a smartphone and too small to compete with an iPad.

 

Emphasis, showing he was not talking about simply marketing, but rather the physical size, usability and experience itself, mine.

 

Actual audio below (it's a zip because the forum won't let us upload M4A directly), hopefully that works for everyone:

 

 

Sandpaper.zip 3,945k .zip file

 

 

Originally Posted by antkm1 View Post
If they start this off at $199...mark my words it will cannibalize the IPad 3 by at least 50-75% this Holiday season. It will be THE GIFT to buy.
Edit: And that kind of scares me. Because despite what people say, the 10" iPad will take a huge hit for no other reason than price. When it all comes down to it...the average consumer will 100% of the time choose price and sacrifice usability. All we will hear is, "yeah, I went or the 7" because it was cheaper, I dont need the bigger screen anyway, this is just as good and sooo much cheaper".

 

And see, here's the thing about that: they're wrong. They're always wrong. That's exactly what is happening with all manner of Android tablets now! There are literally $70 7" tablets in Big Lots' around the country. SEVENTY dollars. People certainly don't think they need the larger screen. People certainly think it's "just as good". People certainly buy it just because it's cheaper. And you and I and everyone else here would be in complete agreement that they're wrong about that. 

 

With a smaller iPad, it's my belief that we'd see the exact same thing, only now the criticism and poor reviews would be toward an Apple product, not a third-party one.

 

Also, I saw your report, of course, and I wish to clarify that I mean absolutely no disrespect toward nor wish to diminish the hardships through which people with depression go. I've certainly felt help-/hopeless and have experienced true depression in even the very recent past, but it is my personal belief that a sentient being should never wish itself gone and that doing so is a far greater failure than any operational stumble causing depression.


Edited by Tallest Skil - 8/25/12 at 9:29pm

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #122 of 208
Well a iPad mini will maintain apple tablet dominance even with win8 talents coming intone market. And If they also get android phones to pay for a license the stock will hit 1000$ in 2013...
post #123 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

Like the 11" mba over the 13" mba, and 13"mbp over the 15"mbp?

I'd have to see the numbers, but I'm pretty certain the 13" MBP is the best selling MB model.  It might now be overtaken by the 13" Air...don't know the current facts.

Another good comparison is when the iPod Mini, then Nano, the standard iPod (now the "Classic") became almost obsolete, if it weren't for it's massive storage capabilities.

 

Edit: let me also add that I think comparing cannibalization of the iPad to the Macbook line is kind of disproportionate because the overall price levels are greater.

I think you see less cannibalization in the Macbook line because when you look at a purchase over a certain amount (let's say $999) value becomes more important than price.

 

When you're talking about spending $500 compared to $200, then Price becomes a much bigger factor.


Edited by antkm1 - 8/25/12 at 9:51pm
post #124 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by antkm1 View Post

Or, it could be 10" iPad and 7" iPad.  That would be way better that iPad, and iPad mini, IMO

It's odd to round up for a value that ends in .7 and odd to round down for one that ends in .85. They both should be rounded up for the obvious reason. The only reason we were ever saying a 7" iPad was because there were 7" tablets trying to compete with the iPad, but this would be an 8" iPad at that size.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #125 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

You know I often disagree with you, and you and I have had our share of heated debates, but I have to show my support of your thoughts about the iPad Mini.  Not only because you're getting beat-up a bit, but because i honestly agree with you.

 

Additionally, It really irks me when people on this forum go overboard with the heated rebuttals.  And there are some comments on this thread that really go too far (of one in particular has been reported).  Wishing someone ill-will should NEVER come into play on a public forum.  You know people, you can have a civil debate without being offensive or tactless.  No one should be personally attached for having an opinion.

 

Now I don't 100% agree with your arguments on the iPad mini (gosh I really hope they don't call it that), but you have my support.

post #126 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


It's odd to round up for a value that ends in .7 and odd to round down for one that ends in .85. They both should be rounded up for the obvious reason. The only reason we were ever saying a 7" iPad was because there were 7" tablets trying to compete with the iPad, but this would be an 8" iPad at that size.

exactly my point.  pick a direction to round.  I'm sure i'm not the first to notice the inconsistent rounding when referencing the sizes but I'm surprised i haven't seen the argument before.  Yeah, and they round-down on the Macbook screen sizes, even though the 11" air is 11.6" they still round down.


Edited by antkm1 - 8/25/12 at 10:10pm
post #127 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

I don't understand; Apple doesn't make products for people who want to get things done?

 

 

Yes, you don't understand.

post #128 of 208
Originally Posted by antkm1 View Post
You know I often disagree with you, and you and I have had our share of heated debates, but I have to show my support of your thoughts about the iPad Mini.  Not only because you're getting beat-up a bit, but because i honestly agree with you.

 

Additionally, It really irks me when people on this forum go overboard with the heated rebuttals.  And there are some comments on this thread that really go too far (of one in particular has been reported).  Wishing someone ill-will should NEVER come into play on a public forum.  You know people, you can have a civil debate without being offensive or tactless.  No one should be personally attached for having an opinion.

 

Now I don't 100% agree with your arguments on the iPad mini (gosh I really hope they don't call it that), but you have my support.

 

Thank you very much! And yes, things can get pretty heated around here. I know I've certainly been courser than I would've wished at times. Though not an excuse for one's own actions, I sometimes like to go read a thread or two in PoliticalOutsider to get a sense of scale. Occasionally I think that if all voters were as vocal as on that subforum, we'd have a civil war at every election. lol.gif

 

 

Should it exist, iPad mini seems like the most likely name (to me, at least), and Apple has shown no aversion to bringing back the past (iBook and iBooks, though they're different markets now). Maybe iPad nano, and while that certainly seems a little silly, it would cut out all talk of "a smaller iPad mini". Just… not "iPad Air"… 

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #129 of 208

As I noted in my edited previous post, I think they should take a note from the Macbook nomenclature and just put the size as the suffix.  iPad 10", iPad 8" or however you'd like to round it.  That would be more the Apple thing to do IMO.

Sigh...but "mini" might differentiate it more.  So "mini" might just be used (not only since it's already being and has been used) to market the distinct difference in user experience, as to possibly avert the inevitable cannibalization that will occur.

post #130 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Siri.

 

Ok, here's where we differ.  to me, Siri has yet to prove itself viable as being a better alternative to anything the user couldn't already do.  I'd only argue for dictation, but that's not even Siri really.  And I strongly disagree to having an Siri-infused ATV or iPod...rubbish.  The tech is just not there yet, and would be really annoying in those cases if it were the only option.  And I really don't see a universal advantage for the iPod line.  I think it was proof when they released the button-less iPod Shuffle, the one that totally bombed.  iPods (meaning dedicated audio/video devices) need tactile feedback, eyes-free.

 

It should have been called a "hobby", not a "beta".  Maybe it's where I live, but literally everyone I know has pretty much stopped using Siri for anything but voice dictation.  At least since January of this year.  Every time I ask why..."it always tells me it can't understand, or can't connect with the server or try again later or some other excuse".

post #131 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Would you buy an iPhone without data and apps? Or, rather, one with a 2.5" screen? Remember, this is Apple. You want to compare me to the people that saw problems with the size/operation of the iPhone/iPad, but I was one of the ones fighting to show that the size/operation was right! Remember, this is… ugh, I said that already. That makes me really depressed… They spent years with these things. They chose the sizes, physical and screen, that they did because they felt they were the most right, and the public has responded in a way that shows Apple's accuracy. 

 

I wonder… and if this does not attach properly, or if it does, I'm going to transcribe it below anyway....

 

.....

I am not quoting the rest because it is so long and trust anyone interested will read your post above

 

I am not disputing what Steve Jobs said and the work Apple put into the original iPad. And I am not disputing the 10" is the optimal size. ... THEN...

It is only a short time ago but things have really changed. The market has matured, people have spent much time with tablets and become used to them. What was 100% true only a few years ago may not be as true now. There are more shades of gray. Nothing is ever fixed in stone. The 11" Air is really the new 13" MB, and it is great. I use one frequently. I use an iPad also and I find it BIG for a lot of tasks. By the same measure I find my iPhone too small. My kids use iPads for gaming and I know for a fact that the iPad would often be too big for them, yet they would LOVE a larger iPod Touch. I can easily imagine a 7"+ device. I can even see it as a wide screen device. Flip it horizontal and it will be wide enough to read most websites and documents fine, though I doubt people who need to do those two things a lot will opt for the smaller device even if it is half the price.

 

ANTKM1 worries about cannibalization but I don't think it will be a major factor. I think it will happen but this will easily be balanced out by the increase in devices sold. Mots people over 40/50 will prefer a larger device. People who use it professionally wil prefer the larger screen. For education I really don't know I imagine it will be split. Gamers will definitely go nuts for the smaller size as will parents buying their kids a first device. Readers and people who want a quick 'go to' super portable device will love the smaller size and many many people will have both in their house. Its a win win the way I see it. Its an expansion of the market and there is definitely room for it. There are several laptop sizes and several monitor sizes out there. For Apple to fit in a size between 4" and 10" makes total sense. Not then, but now. 

 

So no matter what Steve Jobs said then, and I am willing to concede that he was absolutely right at the time, I think the world has evolved and there is a massive market share waiting for Apple. One other point - When Steve said what he said, did he really imagine the breadth of the App and accessory market? Am 7"+ iPad will be amazing as a controller, a car device, a travelling guide, a music controller, a camera, etc etc.

 

I really don't see it as an inferior product by any measure. I see it as hands down awesome.... if Apple chooses to release it.

 

Oh, and the name will be iPad Mini whether it is infact a larger iPod or smaller iPad. Its just a better name and that's how people will see it - a small iPad.

post #132 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Too large to type on with two thumbs, too small to type on with two hands. Sounds like something of a problem to me.

I love my iPad and it is the one best things ever created in my opinion but a 7.8in iPad is more convenient for us to carry around than the 10in one.

I don't know about you many of us have a knapsack to carry our stuffs and can easily slip one in, er, the purse is not necessary.

Whatever is your opinion you are entitled to one.

I may buy one if the price is right but aiming for the iPad 4.
post #133 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

So all the people, like myself, who use an iPad on their lap propped up at a comfortable angle with one hand while typing hunt and peck style with the other are suddenly not going to be able to use an iPad mini. I am just guessing here, but I bet most people don't touch type with two hands on an iPad and typing with two thumbs is mostly a style suited for iPhone. 

I have been quickly figuring out that typing on the iPad or iPhone with two hands/thumbs will not only be faster, but more accurate.

It's been a really annoying discovery that the faster you "hunt and peck" with one hand/finger on these devices, the more mistakes you'll make, and sometimes (mostly) it's not your fault but the software.

I started realizing that the software was intentionally leaving typed characters out of my words when typing quickly with one finger.  and it's my tested theory that the software thinks you are accidentally typing too many keys and it defaults to the 2nd or sometimes the 3rd typed character depending on how fast you type.

 

For example, words like "the" when typed too quickly with on finger will result in "he".  BUT this scenario does not occur when using 2 hands/thumbs.

 

Sort of a tangential comments but adds to the argument that a 7.85" iPad might have a slightly less-usable experience.

post #134 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC View Post


I love my iPad and it is the one best things ever created in my opinion but a 7.8in iPad is more convenient for us to carry around than the 10in one.
I don't know about you many of us have a knapsack to carry our stuffs and can easily slip one in, er, the purse is not necessary.
Whatever is your opinion you are entitled to one.
I may buy one if the price is right but aiming for the iPad 4.

I have to disagree, I think a 7.85" iPad is no more portable than a 9.7" iPad.  Cargo Pants/shorts or not, Purse or not, you will need some kind of carrying accessory for this device.  And if you will need a carrying accessory, it makes no difference if the device is 7.85" or 9.7".  Many purses and "European Carry-Alls" will easily fit the current iPad.  Sure maybe not a clutch purse but most standard one's will fit the current iPad.  In the case of cargo pants...just try to sit down with that device in a pocket that orients 90 degrees perpendicular to a seat and get back to me.

post #135 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by antkm1 View Post

If they start this off at $199...mark my words it will cannibalize the IPad 3 by at least 50-75% this Holiday season. It will be THE GIFT to buy.
Edit: And that kind of scares me. Because despite what people say, the 10" iPad will take a huge hit for no other reason than price. When it all comes down to it...the average consumer will 100% of the time choose price and sacrifice usability. All we will hear is, "yeah, I went or the 7" because it was cheaper, I dont need the bigger screen anyway, this is just as good and sooo much cheaper".

Apple has always canabiloze their own products as they did the iPod with iPhones. What a 7" iPad gives them is the dominance of tablets which they lost in the phones arena and also a cheap tab,et for schools. The iPad 3 will sold less I agree but the iPad mini will sell VERY well which will more than make up the loses IMHO...
post #136 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

Here is the thing I don't get about tallest skil. he admitted he doesn't have an iPhone. (Not counting a freebie 1st gen he won) and I believe he said he doesn't have an iPad either. I wonder if he even has a Mac? For someone that doesn't use an iPhone or iPad on a regular basis like most of us here (myself included) I find it laughable how he can have such strong opinions about what Apple should or should not make. He got furious because I used the term iPhone 5 which I found ridiculous since everyone easily understands that term and what it means. Seriously though, for someone that really doesn't even seem to use Apple products he sure has some pretty strong opinions. It is fine to have strong opinions, but don't call people that disagree with you idiots and use your power as mod to threaten banning them when you so often go over the line yourself.  How and why did AI choose him as a mod? Was he less trollike in the past? 

I don't know his history and you're older on the forum with fewer posts, so I commend you for that.  All I know is that i never thought moderators had the right to even post personal opinions on forums, they are solely responsible for keeping trolls/spam out, making sure people are abiding by the rules of the forum and generally keeping the conversation in a direction relevant to the initial post.  Of which he does really non of that.  I might have to read the forum terms finally.

 

I defended him today because for once in a blue-moon I agreed with him, and also I'm getting a little tired of people turning this forum into a witch-hunt if one person shows the slightest sign of contrary thought.  well, that and the threatening and generally tact-less comments directed towards contrary thoughts.  Not everyone has to agree, hold-hands and sing kumbaya.

post #137 of 208

I like how Tallest is composing essay after fucking essay, wasting hours of his time arguing against everyone on this board that Apple will never produce something that is almost certainly going to be unveiled within 2 months. I can't think of anything more pointless. 


Edited by Slurpy - 8/26/12 at 2:23am
post #138 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

Here is the thing I don't get about tallest skil. he admitted he doesn't have an iPhone. (Not counting a freebie 1st gen he won) and I believe he said he doesn't have an iPad either. I wonder if he even has a Mac? For someone that doesn't use an iPhone or iPad on a regular basis like most of us here (myself included) I find it laughable how he can have such strong opinions about what Apple should or should not make. He got furious because I used the term iPhone 5 which I found ridiculous since everyone easily understands that term and what it means. Seriously though, for someone that really doesn't even seem to use Apple products he sure has some pretty strong opinions. It is fine to have strong opinions, but don't call people that disagree with you idiots and use your power as mod to threaten banning them when you so often go over the line yourself.  How and why did AI choose him as a mod? Was he less trollike in the past? 

 

There's nothing about the guy that makes any sense. He's 'content' with his 1st gen iPhone (threatened to stay with it forever if the next iPhone is called '5') and don't think he owns any semi-recent Apple hardware. He doesn't care enough about any innovation or product Apple has made in the last few years to actually buy something. Yet he posts as if he speaks for the majority of consumers and people who buy Apple products, and knows so confidently whats best for them as well as Apple, mocking others for not sharing his infinitely insight on what Aplple will or will not do (about which he always turns out to be wrong) It's fascinating, in a scary, pathetic sort of way. 

post #139 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Haven't been reading the thread, eh? And what idiot would actually commit suicide?

This comment is totally out of line and disrespectful.
post #140 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by antkm1 View Post

If they start this off at $199...mark my words it will cannibalize the IPad 3 by at least 50-75% this Holiday season. It will be THE GIFT to buy.

Apple will make a decent profit on the iPad Mini... or else they won't offer it at all. So it won't hurt them if the iPad Mini becomes the hot seller at Christmas instead of the iPad 3.

And let's be honest... the iPad 3 at $500 is a very expensive gift.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antkm1 View Post

Edit: And that kind of scares me. Because despite what people say, the 10" iPad will take a huge hit for no other reason than price. When it all comes down to it...the average consumer will 100% of the time choose price and sacrifice usability. All we will hear is, "yeah, I went or the 7" because it was cheaper, I dont need the bigger screen anyway, this is just as good and sooo much cheaper".

If price is the biggest factor... why isn't the cheaper iPad 2 outselling the iPad 3? I haven't heard anything about that if it is. People must be drawn in by the new low price of the iPad 2... and then they end up getting the iPad 3 because of the beautiful Retina screen.

But I still think Apple should have a lower priced offering.... here's an interesting article on the matter: Apple Price Umbrella

So here's how I think it will go:

$300 for the iPad Mini
$400 for the bigger iPad 2
$500 for the Retina iPad

Remember... Apple is the king of the upsell. How many times do people walk into the store with a certain Apple product and price in mind... but walk out with the upgraded model?

I noticed this when I was pricing the Macbook Air:

$1000 gets you in the door for an 11" Macbook Air 64GB
$1100 doubles the SSD to 128GB
$1200 for 128GB and a bigger 13" screen

Dammit... you went in to spend $1000 but ended up spending $1200. Apple makes it nearly impossible to stick with the base model. Hell... look at the iPod Touch. You'd be a fool to buy the 8GB for $200 when you can get 4 TIMES the storage for only $100 more.

So maybe that's how it will go. Apple might gamble on the fact that most people will just go ahead and get the bigger iPad 2 instead of the iPad Mini.

$300 gets you in the door for the iPad Mini.... but Apple dangles the bigger iPad 2 in front of your face for only $100 more. And another $100 for the Retina iPad.

But even if people do buy the iPad Mini... Apple still makes a profit on it. And it gets the customer into the iPad ecosystem (and away from those other tablets).

Who knows... the next time around they might buy another iPad (maybe a more expensive one). Apple loves repeat customers.

And then there's another thing... there might be people who actually want a smaller iPad. We don't know yet.

But we do know that Apple has had multiples models and price points in almost all of their product lines.

You can get iPods from $50 to $400.... laptops from $1000 to $3700... desktops from $1200 to $3300... phones from "free" to $850

I see no reason why the iPad must start at $400.
post #141 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

A smaller iPad would be worse at everything the iPad can do. Lower resolution, shorter battery life, slower processor, worse graphics, gimped connectivity, and we're hearing it might have a plastic back. The only benefit, if you can call it that, is that it's smaller. Big whoop.

 

People say, 'portability'. You can't put this thing in a pocket. You have to carry it around in a hand, just like you would a regular iPad, only this one is so small that it barely justifies carrying it around in that manner. "So they put it in their purse," they say. So Apple's supposed to make a product only for women? I mean no disrespect to men who carry purses, but come on. That's not a valid reason to make a product.

 

People say, 'cost'. That's why the iPad 2 is still for sale. In seven more months, the iPad 2 will be $299. That kills every other tablet on the market right now, even more so than the 70+% shipment and 95% use of the iPad over other tablets already does. Cost is the reason the iPhone 4 and 3GS are still for sale. They fill the low-end gap that the "iPhone nano" was imagined to fill without making compromises in the way of features like a smaller simultaneous iPad would. 

 

People say, 'usability'. I say, "Yes, lessened." Size-wise it comes out to, what, about half the size of the iPad. Cut an iPad in half and that's about what a 7" one would be, right? And let's assume the "thinner side bezel" bit is true. That drops at least one way of holding it in landscape and nearly every comfortable way in portrait. But even if there's a uniform bezel, it's going to be just large enough to not be graspable (not holdable, graspable) with a single hand. The size (specifically width) makes it psychologically close enough to a phone that people'll desire to hold it like one. And when they can't, there'll be trouble. And this whole bit has just been about hardware; imagine the keyboard on this thing. No ten finger typing for anyone, no sir. Not even children. 

 

Lower resolution is offset by smaller size, at least as far as PPI goes. Yes you'll be panning and zooming more, but so what, I don't mind. The graphics could theoretically be superior, as if it has the same A5X as the iPad 3 - and there's no real reason not to, given that the Tegra 3 in the Nexus 7 is as powerful as the A5X - then with 4x fewer pixels to render that would make for much nicer frame rates. Gimped connectivity? No more so than the iPhone 5 with the same new dock, and you can bet the iPad 4 will have the new dock too. Plastic backs weigh less and are more grippy - see the Nexus 7, it has a great back. 

 

Portability is a huge issue. I see lots of people with Kindles on trains, as they're so tiny and weigh virtually nothing. Size does matter. The iPad is just too big and heavy to lug around for some people. If you're fine carrying it around, well bully for you.

 

Cost is the single most important issue. The Nexus 7 is priced right, and has set the standard. That you can get a high end tablet with a high PPI screen for £160 is astounding. Competition works, who'd of thought it!

 

Usability depends on what you want from a tablet. If you want to read books, then something that is small and light, but still big enough to see a decent amount of text makes a lot of sense. If you want Facebook or twitter the same applies. If you want to read the web, a bigger tablet makes sense. If you want to play games, personally I find the iPad too big to hold for extended play, but that may just be me. For video, bigger = better. And so on. Both have their pros and cons.

 

Most of all I'll say this - CHOICE IS WONDERFUL. 

post #142 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Your point is? Since when has Apple cared about market share? Did they make a cheap net book to counter the ones flooding the market? Have they lowered the price of Macs to compete with PCs? No. None of their product lines have ever been a response to what the competition is doing. Why start now? A smaller iPad will cannibalize sales of the current iPad.

Don't fool yourself. Apple cares about market share. Apple has always cared about market share.

It is true, however, that Apple will not sell a POS product simply to gain market share. They remain true to their quality ideals and do their best to never ship crap. But there's no reason why a 7" iPad has to be crap. They manage to make a pretty good 3.5" phone, so why can't they made a decent tablet with 4 times the area?

Cannibalization? I don't think so - at least not much. People who can afford an iPad will buy an iPad. The iPad 2 is only $100 over my guess for the Mini's price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antkm1 View Post

If they start this off at $199...mark my words it will cannibalize the IPad 3 by at least 50-75% this Holiday season. It will be THE GIFT to buy.
Edit: And that kind of scares me. Because despite what people say, the 10" iPad will take a huge hit for no other reason than price. When it all comes down to it...the average consumer will 100% of the time choose price and sacrifice usability. All we will hear is, "yeah, I went or the 7" because it was cheaper, I dont need the bigger screen anyway, this is just as good and sooo much cheaper".

You might as well get $199 out of your head. I don't see any way it's going to happen. $249 is the lowest it could possibly be, with $299 being much more likely. I'd bet $299 iPad Mini, $399 iPad 2, $499 iPad 3 (with the price points remaining constant and new generations simply moving down the ladder each year). When iPad Mini 2 comes out next year, they might drop iPad Mini 1 to $249.

That said, I don't think it's going to hurt the iPad 3 as much as you apparently do. While the iPad 2 is apparently still selling well, the iPad 3 is setting records. It seems that the majority of people are willing to pay the extra $100 for the iPad 3. It seems to me that the majority of people who would buy an iPad Mini would not have bought the iPad 3, anyway - either for size or cost reasons. Apple would absolutely destroy the Android tablet market (at least, the name brand ones - it probably won't have much effect on the $79 cheap ones) but will continue to sell millions of the iPad 3 models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

You are wrong. It is not a terrible idea - it is a great idea. You are simply feeding your own prejudice by being locked into a position. You need to learn to brainstorm and open up to possibilities. I'd wager you are not employed in any kind of creative work. You speak with certainty but I doubt if anyone here cant see that its just chest beating bull. You are certain it will be a useless product? Really? Like so many here declared the iPhone and the iPad  few short years ago. 

Yes, it's funny how TS refuses to hear all the people here who disagree with him and insists that he's right in spite of all evidence to the contrary. To make it even more obvious, a large percentage of the people here are geeks who will always want the best, so if this group is asking for a 7" iPad, the demand must really be there.

It's particularly interesting how he can't see the possibility of having two sizes of an iPad when most of Apple's other products come in multiple sizes. He can't see any portability benefits for a device that's half the size (everyone must carry coffee table books - no one would ever consider carrying a paperback book). He can't even see that a 7" device is cheaper to make and could sell for less than a 10" device.

Again, I just can't wait for his kids to start begging for an iPad Mini.
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post #143 of 208
This is the cheap t,et that will get apple the education market finally. Kids will grow up with apple and books will finally become digitize on our schools...
post #144 of 208
Whatever Apple does in the next while, surely there is going to be some sort of logic applied to the product mix as a whole. If the Nano is effectively transformed into something akin to the current Touch and this rumoured iPad Mini will be priced identically to the current Touch, and there is going to be a new Touch, I have say that this is a ridiculous mess.

I still say the way to go would be to upgrade the Nano to step into some of the void left by making the Touch larger but by larger, I'm not talking 7.85 inches. What Apple needs, instead, is more along the lines of a five-inch Touch, hence eliminating the need for a so-called iPad Mini. I envision a Touch that is priced the same as the current model yet is a little larger than the upcomng iPhone but not so much as to make it impractical to pocket. Those claiming that a 7.85-inch tablet could be regarded as a pocketable device are way off. Having one of those sticking out your back pocket would look rather bizarre.

If instead we get a Touch-like Nano, an iPad Mini priced like a Touch, and to top it off a new Touch, priced like Mini, seriously, doesn't anyone else see the problem with that arrangement?
post #145 of 208
So what is a realistic cost for this rumoured iPad mini? I've seen many values thrown out that feel right — and Apple may have used something like that as a target for bringing this device to market — but they also need to use components that allow for cost to work.

How much would that display cost if they are using the same 163 PPI panel, but with IPS over TN, that they invested in more than a half decade earlier? They are likely shutting down the 3GS sales for most if not all markets next month so they will have the equipment and may not even have to invest in additional production costs. They've surely worked out all the bugs by now.

Would they uses the latest ARM chips because they are lower power and therefore would cut down on the battery size for a given duration thereby increasing the usability by decreasing the weight, or would they use the older chips because they are cheaper? I'm thinking that 32nm is the most likely way to go here. But not an A6 chip but the A5 that is currently in the iPad 2's that came after the iPad (3) release. I think that is the perfect chip for this inexpensive tablet. Keep it at 1GHz. Keep the GPU the same. Keep most or all of the ASIC the same, just at 32nm. AnandTech has tested this revised iPad 2 and the battery life savings are immense.

What about cellular? While it certainly makes sense to use cellular in a smaller device I'm thinking it's cost, space and battery life prohibitive. There are currently no 7" tablets that are selling with cellular so I'm going to have to guess it won't happen. One cold argue that you could tether to your phone but I'd counter by saying that is a kludge. In fact, I hate the way Apple has set that up. If I tether my Mac to my iPad and close my MBP's lid and reopen it I have to then turn off Personal Hotspot and then turn it back on for my MBP to see it again so I can connect. Why isn't think automatic?!

Personally, I think the weigh is a primary focus for this design. It needs to be so light that it's in the Kindle weight range. But remember this is an 8" device, not 7" which means considerably more display area. It's also Apple so we're talking glass and likely a metal back.

Now, I can see Apple including the in-cell tech and GG2 to reduce the weight and thickness of this device even if it does cost a little more. I think Apple's mindset cares more about these things than a slight increase in profits. Because of this I think we might see a plastic back or a much cheaper metal backing. Something that is very light. I also think the thin bezel on the long sides of the display could be possible only because they could add unnecessary bulk to the device. Again, I think the weight is a primary concern.

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post #146 of 208

Have you ever had childen complaining that the current iPad is unusable.

I keep hearing this argument but it's not children who find the iPad, as is not to their liking. They like it just fine, thank you, based on what I 've witnessed.
Edited by Carmissimo - 8/26/12 at 7:05am
post #147 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShAdOwXPR View Post

Apple has always canabiloze their own products as they did the iPod with iPhones. What a 7" iPad gives them is the dominance of tablets which they lost in the phones arena and also a cheap tab,et for schools. The iPad 3 will sold less I agree but the iPad mini will sell VERY well which will more than make up the loses IMHO...

But with the iPhone they got people to buy a more expensive device, with the iPad mini people will be buying a less expensive device just for market share or to get more people into the ecosystem, sounds very Amazonish.
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post #148 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

But with the iPhone they got people to buy a more expensive device, with the iPad mini people will be buying a less expensive device just for market share or to get more people into the ecosystem, sounds very Amazonish.

Right. Apple would never introduce the MacBook Air at a price lower than the MacBook Pro.

Apple would never introduce a lower priced 21" iMac to compete with the 27" iMac.

Apple would never sell a 13" MBP since it is less expensive than the 15".

Apple would never sell a single CPU Mac Pro since the dual CPU Mac Pro is better.

Oh, wait......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carmissimo View Post

Have you ever had childen complaining that the current iPad is unusable.
I keep hearing this argument but it's not children who find the iPad, as is not to their liking. They like it just fine, thank you, based on what I 've witnessed.

That's a straw man argument. NO ONE said that the current iPad is unusable.

Instead, people are saying that the iPad is a great product and they could also offer a smaller version to appeal to even more people because of its smaller size and lower cost.
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post #149 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

I don't understand; Apple doesn't make products for people who want to get things done?

 

OK, even though this is like having an argument with a cult member, who obviously isn't paying any attention to what you're saying, I'll play along.

 

Obviously both uses (work and non) happen on Macs by design and otherwise, so please don't take what I'm saying and imply that I'm claiming the other doesn't exist, as you did here.   iTunes accounts for a certain chunk of many Apple users' time.  Barely any "work gets done" if one is using iTunes.  Same as facebook (which is now integrated into the system), same as many, many aspects of what Apple gives us.  Therefore, to use the "how are you going to get any thing done on that thing" argument is folly, because it ignores that simply isn't a concern much of the time, especially on the small devices Apple has ALREADY sold, in countless shapes and models, for many years. 

 

 

Ask any iPod user how much work they get done on it, or even if they bought it hoping to get work done on it.  And why is a big iPod any dumber an idea than a small one?

 

Point is, there are many devices already in existence where the parameters of said device are exactly what you find wrong with the mini, and understand that I'm NOT talking about tablets necessarily.    You keep applying your personal opinion and preferences as facts (problem 1) regarding exhibit A onto exhibit B (problem 2).

post #150 of 208
Originally Posted by antkm1 View Post
It's been a really annoying discovery that the faster you "hunt and peck" with one hand/finger on these devices, the more mistakes you'll make, and sometimes (mostly) it's not your fault but the software.

 

Exactly. I don't get why everyone seems to want a device designed for only hunt and peck. I thought the idea was to improve tech literacy.


Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

For someone that doesn't use an iPhone or iPad on a regular basis like most of us here (myself included) I find it laughable how he can have such strong opinions about what Apple should or should not make.

 

I use them both daily.


He got furious…

 

Oh, you read far too much into words. I'm never angry.


…use your power as mod to threaten banning them when you so often go over the line yourself.

 

I have never done that to anyone because of their opinions. I will never do it. I've commented on it to trolls who, we would all agree, have no place here.


Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post
I can't think of anything more pointless. 

 

How about a hilarious vendetta against someone on the Internet because he's holding a parallel position to your own that happens to clash every once in a while? lol.gif

 

"We're very much alike, you and I, Mr. Bond." The problem comes from when I disagree that absolutely every single product Apple has ever made or could ever be rumored to make will be a success simply because Apple made it. That's really it. You've much the same outlook on people that don't understand why Apple does what it does as I, and we're pretty close on our views on the future, if only that we have different interests and therefore have different foci. 


Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post
He doesn't care enough about any innovation or product Apple has made in the last few years to actually buy something.

 

Of course I don't. You caught me. This is obviously true.

 

(about which he always turns out to be wrong)
 

Aw, now, don't fall down into blatant lies. It'll ruin your credibility.


 It's fascinating, in a scary, pathetic sort of way. 

 

See my comment above re: vendettas. lol.gif


Originally Posted by jragosta View Post
Yes, it's funny how TS refuses to hear all the people here who disagree with him… 

 

If by that you mean, "you refuse to read my posts where I've responded to those with whom I disagree," then yes, you're correct. :broken_confused_emoticon:


To make it even more obvious, a large percentage of the people here are geeks who will always want the best, so if this group is asking for a 7" iPad, the demand must really be there.

 

To make it even more obvious, this forum represents all manner of fringe groups and the actual market, the 95% of actual tablet users that are buying the current size of iPad over all other sizes of tablet, are the metric against which we should be gauging things. The xMac is a fringe group. Matte display users are a fringe group. iPhone nano is a fringe group. You can't even say that "the market for a 7" tablet is even larger than existing tablets buyers; they're just waiting for an Apple tablet," because that's nonsense. WE'RE the ones that wait for Apple versions. Regular people would just buy what is out now if they saw something that fit with what they thought they wanted. And when/if it didn't, they'd get rid of it, return it, or stop using it. That's reflected in the tablet use marketshare we're seeing.


He can't even see that a 7" device is cheaper to make and could sell for less than a 10" device.

 

When all you can do is lie, it doesn't really help the argument… I've never denied that it could sell for less.


Again, I just can't wait for his kids to start begging for an iPad Mini.

 

I'll never have kids. And I've not heard of anyone's actually wanting a smaller iPad. Do you have a link with even a study of 500 kids wanting smaller tablets?

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

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post #151 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Right. Apple would never introduce the MacBook Air at a price lower than the MacBook Pro.
Apple would never introduce a lower priced 21" iMac to compete with the 27" iMac.
Apple would never sell a 13" MBP since it is less expensive than the 15".
Apple would never sell a single CPU Mac Pro since the dual CPU Mac Pro is better.
Oh, wait......
That's a straw man argument. NO ONE said that the current iPad is unusable.
Instead, people are saying that the iPad is a great product and they could also offer a smaller version to appeal to even more people because of its smaller size and lower cost.

Yes they did but to offer more options but not because of a response to what other companies were doing. SJ was pretty adamant about the current size being ideal. How much cheaper do you really think a smaller iPad is to make? It's gonna have to be made with a older processor and screen. Will it use scaled down iPad apps or scaled up iPhone apps. This would be a big step towards the fragmentation you always laugh at Android having. For the record I'm holding off buying a tablet just in case I am mistaken lol.
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post #152 of 208

As I read elsewhere, "Appleinsider is where the moderators troll and the trolls moderate".    

post #153 of 208
Originally Posted by jlandd View Post
As I read elsewhere, "Appleinsider is where the moderators troll and the trolls moderate".    

 

What an asinine statement.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

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post #154 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

But with the iPhone they got people to buy a more expensive device, with the iPad mini people will be buying a less expensive device just for market share or to get more people into the ecosystem, sounds very Amazonish.

The way to see this move is to prevent android to get a pat of the tablet market basically instead of giving the low end to android now apple will have it and they will finally have a device for education at a reasonable price. Next school year will be the beginning of the digital book era at k-12 IMHO...

Get them young apple lol
post #155 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd View Post

As I read elsewhere, "Appleinsider is where the moderators troll and the trolls moderate".    

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

What an asinine statement.

 

You're shooting the messenger.

post #156 of 208
Originally Posted by ShAdOwXPR View Post
…giving the low end to android now apple will have it and they will finally have a device for education at a reasonable price.

 

Why isn't that the iPad 2 and iPad 3 next year? If they keep to their current hardware tiering, the iPad 2 will be the same price as a 7" one would be.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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post #157 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Forbes View Post

A shame they're not going with iPad Air, as John Gruber theorized. It's a nice extension of the brand. 

 

Not a LOT of options in either case… I've tried like crazy to think up alternative variants, and didn't come up with any that would be better.

 

I also prefer "Air" to "Mini"...

 

What differentiates the MB Air from the MB Pro? Size and weight mostly, right? Well, that and no optical drive… 

 

In this case, the "lighter, smaller" iPad would fit as an "air" in my view...

post #158 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Yes they did but to offer more options but not because of a response to what other companies were doing. SJ was pretty adamant about the current size being ideal. How much cheaper do you really think a smaller iPad is to make? It's gonna have to be made with a older processor and screen. Will it use scaled down iPad apps or scaled up iPhone apps. This would be a big step towards the fragmentation you always laugh at Android having. For the record I'm holding off buying a tablet just in case I am mistaken lol.

Who says it's a response to what others are doing? It was reported here not that long ago that Jobs did NOT have a strong objection to a 7" tablet. His comments were largely marketing oriented.

The most likely scenario to me is that Apple had a smaller tablet in the back of their minds all along but decided to concentrate on one size to get the market moving and will add the smaller one on their own timetable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

To make it even more obvious, this forum represents all manner of fringe groups and the actual market, the 95% of actual tablet users that are buying the current size of iPad over all other sizes of tablet,

Not even close to being true.

Apple has something like 60-65% of the tablet market. The remaining 35-40% is almost all either 7" or 10". I don't have a breakdown, but everything I've seen myself is that a large fraction of the non-Apple tablets are 7" - like the Amazon Fire, for example. So something like 20+% of the tablet market is 7" - and that's even when there are no good 7" tablets. If Apple introduces one, they could capture a large chunk of that, plus the people who want 7" but don't have a good option.

Furthermore, your story keeps changing. Before, you were saying that they would sell OK, but that they're crap. Now you're saying that they're not going to sell.

The fact is that there's no doubt that Apple could produce a good 7-8" tablet. They make a 3.5" iPhone/iPod Touch and a 10" tablet and both are recognized as the best in the market. You haven't given a single reason why they can't make a good 8" tablet. All of your arguments (like "it's too small to type") are thoroughly debunked by the success of the iPhone/iPod Touch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

are the metric against which we should be gauging things. The xMac is a fringe group. Matte display users are a fringe group. iPhone nano is a fringe group. You can't even say that "the market for a 7" tablet is even larger than existing tablets buyers; they're just waiting for an Apple tablet," because that's nonsense. WE'RE the ones that wait for Apple versions. Regular people would just buy what is out now if they saw something that fit with what they thought they wanted. And when/if it didn't, they'd get rid of it, return it, or stop using it. That's reflected in the tablet use marketshare we're seeing.

When all you can do is lie, it doesn't really help the argument… I've never denied that it could sell for less.

I'll never have kids. And I've not heard of anyone's actually wanting a smaller iPad. Do you have a link with even a study of 500 kids wanting smaller tablets?

As usual, you're simply ignoring that a reasonable number of people here say that they'd buy a 7" iPad Mini. There's also the fact that a reasonable percentage of others already buy 7" tablets - even though the ones that are available today are crap.
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post #159 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Why isn't that the iPad 2 and iPad 3 next year? If they keep to their current hardware tiering, the iPad 2 will be the same price as a 7" one would be.

That is a good point. Also the smaller iPad probably isn't ideal for education anyway. The current iPad size is much better for simulating a textbook like experience. A smaller iPad is going to require a lot of zooming and panning like the iPhone. Pricing is going to be a challenge since all the devices essentially do the same thing with slightly different size screens. From a BOM standpoint they probably don't vary that much aside from Retina iPad. Perhaps they will keep the iPad 2 around as well for the education model. I'm not sure if Apple will use cheaper parts in the iPad mini or not, but I for one hope they at least offer a top of the line version with cellular. That is what I want. If it comes out as a cheap plastic crippled entry level device I probably won't buy it.

 

My hope is that Apple views the market as diversified for size requirements, not tiered price points. There are different situations where an iPhone is the best device and others where a full size iPad is better and still others where a smaller iPad would be ideal. The differentiation should be based on screen presentation requirements not price point. Within each model there should be price tiers obviously, but I don't want a cheap iPad mini built using cheap parts or by intentionally crippling the features.


Edited by mstone - 8/26/12 at 9:20am

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post #160 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

.
That's a straw man argument. NO ONE said that the current iPad is unusable.
Instead, people are saying that the iPad is a great product and they could also offer a smaller version to appeal to even more people because of its smaller size and lower cost.

A friend of mine said his wife wanted an iPad that she could fit in her purse. I never looked at it that way, but I suppose it makes sense for a segment of the population.

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  • Apple's 7.85-inch iPad will in fact be named 'iPad mini' - report
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