Actor Bruce Willis won't sue Apple over iTunes music ownership [u] - Page 5

 

Viral bullshit! 

 

 

(IMHO)

This is what's really sad about journalism nowadays.  In the rush to be the first to report a news story, nothing is checked but put out there as fact.

Of course, then it is discredited and shown that it was fake.

Come on people.  This is getting really old.  

Intelligent people knew. People who read the license agreement knew. People who paid any attention to the media knew. People with even a shred of common sense knew.

Not when the agreement specifically tells you what rights you are buying. See below for the consequences if your interpretation were to become accepted.

First sale doctrine applies - IF you do not explicitly waive your first sale rights. I believe you do.

Originally Posted by jragosta
So the fact that you're uneducated means that everyone else is?

Most people realize that when they "buy" software, they do not have the right to do whatever they want with it. I can't "buy" windows 7 and then make and sell 10,000 copies, for example. Similarly, most people who have ever thought about this at more than the "I want, I want, I want" level understand that their rights are limited - which would not be true if they owned it.

At the simplest level, if I owned music when I "buy" it, then I could demand that everyone else in the world pay me a royalty when they listen to it. Obviously, that doesn't happen - because I don't own the music.

And you haven't answered my second question. Even if the rest of the world is as uninformed as you are, why would that override a license agreement?

20 years is far too short. There's a lot of music that's well over 20 years old that's still being played on the radio today.


Yet. They say that they're working on it.

What's with posting all the incorrect information?

iTunes tracks are only licenced for the country they are purchased in, and only if you are physically in that country. I have tonnes of DVD's and Blu-rays purchased from the US, and Europe, and they play fine on my NZ DVD/Blu-ray players, even Bruce Willis ones. The licence is very different to the ability to play the movie

We are able to "purchase" music and film on iTunes for very low $ precisely because it cannot be re-sold or given to others.  In practice, it is highly unlikely that Mr. Willis' music and video collection would cease being available to his heirs, assuming that they maintain his iTunes account.

 

However, the IP rights (and financial security) of artists must be respected.  The vast majority of musicians and actors only eke out a spare living from royalties.  Mr. Willis, on the other hand, has had many mega paydays, and more are in his future.  What is he thinking??

Edited by RFHJr - 9/3/12 at 3:26pm

Hey, if your an actor that wants to get attention, just leak out a story that you are going to sue Apple, get some attention to sell tickets to an upcoming movie coming out.

 

So what movie is Willis coming out with?   Hahahhahaha.

All he has to do is going out and buy a TON of writable CDs, let his kids at his computer for about a year, let them make copies of songs.  No one will know the difference if they don't say anything.

 

NOT THAT I ENDORSE THIS PRACTICE, but it does happen,.  They can make CDs all day long.  What? You think that Apple is going to go snooping around their house for CDs they burned themselves from their Dad's system?

Really?  So why is it that anybody selling used CDs, DVDs, Software, etc. on Ebay is able to do it legally?

Does this mean that when I pass away my entire collection of CDs, DVDs, Blu-rays, and software must be returned to the manufacturer or destroyed?

Exactly what I think.  If Apple had put 'License' button instead of 'Buy', then this would not have been a problem.  Some commenters are saying this is a industry problem.  IMHO, however, this is Apple's.  And I believe anyone can see this.

 

I can't think of any possible reason for you to think this. Not one at all. Nope… 

EVERYONE in the industry says 'buy'. It's not just Apple's problem.

Heck, when you 'buy' a CD, you do realize that you're only buying the physical media and licensing the content, right? If not, you should.

Who ever claimed that? You really should lay off the strong stuff.

No. And I never said that they were.

 

To all the me-first media outlets looking for a story, and all the folks who typed angry comments at Apple and had legal comment debates.... never mind!!! Hahahaaa!!! This would've been a great April Fools story/joke.

 

 

Then based on your first quote, what is to become of my media collection when I pass away?  

It seems that you are confused about the difference of owning a copy of the media versus owning the licensing rights.

 

No company gives you actual ownership of digital files. Even when you buy a music CD you don't own the files on it, all you own is the media that contain the files. You can however resell the CD itself with the music files still on it.

Edited by Realistic - 9/3/12 at 6:52pm

Says who? I'm not the one saying that you own the music when you buy a CD.

Whoever you leave it to gets it. The license for CDs is transferrable when you transfer the media.

What part don't you understand?

I own what I have and can do with it what I wish so yeah.  It's good.  And I have that original album along with every beatles album and I listen to them when I want where I want and when I die, my kids will have the albums and can put them onto CDs and each have a copy to listen to.  And who's coming to take those away?  You?!?  No one will.  So bollocks to you, good sir. ;-)

OK then, same as with the other person.  When I'm dead or my account with Walmart or whomever is closed, who's going to come buy and pick up that CD I bought?  Like any thing else, I can't publicize it myself or profit from it, but when I made that purchase for myself then it's mine.  I can play it anywhere, I can make a copy to cassette for myself on a tape player, or I can melt the thing on a fire.  It's MINE.  That copy of those songs I bought are mine.  The hard drive I put DRM free music on is MINE.  My iPod is MINE.  And my beatles albums are MINE.  And when I'm dead they will belong to my children.  And they will be THEIRS.

I love people who's outrage is so out of proportion to their investment...

 

 

It says "buy" because you buy a license to use the music.  FWIW, The Amazon MP3 Store's ToS is almost identical to the iTunes license (and it should be, since the RIAA wrote huge chunks of it).  OBTW, their 1-click buttons also say "Buy".  But clearly, we understand your level of frustration, having obviously spent a whole couple of dollars on the "few tracks" you've actually "payed for on iTunes".

 

BTW, the Sears/Maytag analogy is a false dichotomy.  Unless maybe you hadn't paid off your Sears card when you kicked the bucket...  :-P

 

Has the first-sale doctrine been established for digital products like music downloads or movie downloads that don't have a physical element to transfer?  Isn't the foundation of first-sale that the original owner can no longer own the object being sold?

Relax folks. It's really as simple as you first thought.

 

When you buy a copy of a song from iTunes--you own it. You are not licensing it. You own that particular copy and it is your property. You can do anything you like with it. You can give it away. You can let your aunt Shirley borrow it. You can pass on that one copy in your will to anyone you choose. You can even sell it for a billion dollars if you find the right buyer. The main thing you can't do is make more copies of your particular copy and distribute them. There are some other exceptions, but for people who just want to buy a copy of a song and listen to it, that's all there is to know.

 

There. Was that so hard? 

Edited by CILG - 9/3/12 at 10:54pm

 

There fixed it for you.

 

Since day one iTunes (the software) has had the ability to burn music CD's, so you can make physical back ups of your collection.

 

Then when you die your grandchildren can keep "Granpa's box of borin' old music" in the garage, attic or somewhere and one day sell it in a garage sale or throw it out.

So I purchase a CD. I pass it on at sometime, then when that person is done with it, he or she is suppose to trash

it so no one else can use, listen or enjoy it … yeah right!

 

So then, music stores that BUY back cd's are breaking the law or only after selling it are they breaking the law?

 

When they paid ME for the used cd, I'm the only one who benefited from the sale, and when they resell it, there

is no way in hell any money goes to the artist!

 

 

Skip

When do they freeze accounts? Do you kow? For going music o your children? No. In fact, that is easily done even if you have old DRM music. They might freeze an account if the music you buy keeps showing up on Pirate Bay. What does the freeze mean? It means ou can't redownload the music and you can't buy more.

So unless you believe Apple should allow free downloads for all of your ancestors, there is no issue here. None. Not even a little.

So who is coming by to delete the music off your computer? Or the backups you made?

 

No you can't, say you owned a shop, cafe or restaurant, you can't play it there without the relevant license for playing it in a public place for commercial purposes.

A CD is a limited license as well. The main difference is that the license is transferable when the original physical medium changes hands, the download license probably isn't transferable, though I don't think the music cartel is going to prosecute you if it's inherited. It didn't give you rights of public broadcast (extra fee license) or the rights to distribute copies (lots of extra fees).

Apple has been all DRM-free for three years now, partially DRM free for a year before that.

The case is hypothetical since the original story has been refuted.

 

What's interesting is the way this stuff is perceived when comparing a hard copy to a data only item. The topic of older Macs without OSX reinstall dvds has come up before. People say to get one off ebay often quoting it as the right thing to do. I'm not sure if Apple offers any support there, but their policies clearly state these disks are not for resale. They are granting you a license, not a physical commodity, yet people treat it as something else. It's just that in the case of sales that involve a boxed item, these things are perceived differently. In some states sales tax even follows different rules on non-tangible items.

 

Show us links to both of your points (what the Copyright office said and the opinion), please.

Thank you Bruce. The world is safe again.

Is this really a problem? Passing music on to your children? My kids wouldn't be caught dead listening to my music! Passing my music on to them would be just as welcome as leaving them my well-worn boxers.

I'm happy to learn that something I considered factual to be incorrect, but I'd appreciate it if you'd do more than just challenge me to show links.  If you want to challenge me, do some research to show something to the contrary.  

 

That said, I will do the following to get you started:

 

Copyright office:

 

From Wikipedia:  (for the gory detail click the copyright link)

 

 

"Like I said above, I am reverting to CD burning using iTunes to make physical back ups of my digital purchases, covered by "fair use", as usual Apple has left a back door open."

 

The Fair Use rule has nothing to do with making backups, at least for music.  You are only legally allowed to make backups if your license for the digital download allows you to.  

 

To be very precise about this, Fair Use is an affirmative defense against an accusation of copyright infringement, and it has a set of requirements that must be met.  None of these includes anything close to making a backup copy of your digital music download.  

 

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to post this. But still, I have to disagree. 

 

First, when you purchase a song from iTunes, you are not licensing it, you really are purchasing it. This is based on the iTunes Terms and Conditions under the heading "USE OF PURCHASED OR RENTED CONTENT." You have only two choices for how you get content from iTunes; you can purchase it or you can rent it. And we know you can't rent music from iTunes.

 

Second, in the entire iTunes Terms and Conditions, there is exactly one sentence that says what you can do with a purchased iTunes Plus song (and they're all iTunes plus now.) It says:  "You may copy, store, and burn iTunes Plus Products as reasonably necessary for personal, noncommercial use." That's not license language; that's a restatement, or paraphrase, of copyright law. This means you own your particular copy of the song subject to ordinary copyright law.

 

Third, I do see your point about the Copyright Office's position on First Sale under section 109. The Copyright office confirms that First Sale applies to digital files on physical media. But they are not recommending extending First Sale to electronic transmission of digital files. They have concerns about the ease with which we can make digital copies, how transmitting a file automatically creates another copy of a file, and the unlikelihood that anyone will delete their original copy. They want Congress, or "the market" to address the issue.

 

I would say that until a court or the Congress says differently, First Sale applies to lawfully purchased digital files electronically transmitted, based on traditional copyright law. Which means you can do whatever you want with your particular copy, that's not business related, as long as you don't make more copies for distribution.

Sort of like all those movies you act in Bruce ... we all pay, but we don't own them.

Wasn't really looking for agreement or disagreement, what I said is fact-based.

If it floats your boat to use the word "own" have at it. but you won't be able to have an interchange with someone who understands copyright law and how it relates to digital media. I will repeat: you do not "own" your iTunes digital media in any operative sense of the word. If you owned it, you could sell it. But you don't so you can't.

The keywords to look for are copyright (year) (owner ) All Rights Reserved on the content or click through to get it. That is all that's needed to invoke the entire copyright law.