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Rumor: Samsung to sue Apple over LTE-compatible next-gen iPhone

post #1 of 78
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Citing "ranking officials," The Korea Times on Monday reported that Samsung is preparing to sue Apple for using 4G LTE patents in its next-generation iPhone shortly after the smartphone's expected launch this week.

Presumably, Samsung doesn't know the final specifications of the sixth-generation iPhone, including what baseband chip Apple is employing in the new handset, but many believe 4G LTE compatibility is an inevitability given the state of the smartphone market. A report on Friday noted the so-called "iPhone 5" would feature worldwide LTE, though compatibility will reportedly be limited to certain markets and carriers.

The rumor echoes a previous report from the same publication that said Samsung would "immediately sue Apple if the latter releases products using advanced long-term evolution (LTE) mobile technology." Apple has already released a 4G device in the third-generation iPad which made its debut six months ago.

"It?s true that Samsung Electronics has decided to take immediate legal action against the Cupertino-based Apple," an unnamed Samsung official told The Korea Times. "Countries in Europe and even the United States ― Apple?s home-turf ― are our primary targets."

Galaxy S III

Samsung's 4G LTE-enabled Galaxy S III. | Source: Samsung


While Apple holds over 400 LTE-related patents from its February purchase of Nortel IP, Samsung is a clear market leader with over 800

"Apple claimed the existing 3G-related patents are standard essential patents (SEPs) according to our earlier commitment to the FRAND (fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory) terms," said another Samsung executive. "But the story is totally different when you talk about LTE patents. These are new and highly-valued."

The report comes on the heels of an alleged confirmation from unnamed sources that local mobile operators would be carrying Apple's next-generation iPhone on its 4G network, strongly hinting that the smartphone would be LTE-compatible. If the iPhone 5 does support 4G LTE networks, it will be facing competition from Android-based devices like Samsung's own flagship Galaxy S III, which recently passed the iPhone 4S to become the top-selling smartphone in the U.S.

It is unclear if the rumors are true, however Apple and Samsung are locked in a worldwide patent dispute, and the South Korean company has pulled from its extensive wireless patent portfolio to counter suits from the iPhone maker.

Apple is widely expected to unveil its newest handset at a special event on Wednesday, with a product rollout thought to follow on Sept. 21.
post #2 of 78

Standardized Patent usage.  Fair competition laws that allow the use of LTE if more then one company owns patents related to such technology.  Laws should state that if Apple owns 400 patents and Samsung owns 800 then they both should be forced to allow the usage of those patents without repercussions of legal battles.  There has to be a happy medium.  Really this is getting so stupid.  This looks like the cold war between US and Soviet Union.  It's getting so bitter that I am beginning to really see samsung as the Soviet Union trying to manipulate and control the legal system just so they can build handsets and tab's to discredit the innovator Apple.

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post #3 of 78
I love how Samsung claim they 'Innovate, not litigate', now they're preparing litigation over something which they don't even know exactly what they're litigating for
post #4 of 78
OK, it's one thing for Apple to sue when Samsung blatantly copies their look, feel, design
post #5 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by aventheusiast View Post

OK, it's one thing for Apple to sue when Samsung blatantly copies their look, feel, design

Where's the rest of your post? Why shouldn't Samsung be able to protect its LTE patents? They worked hard creating it and they'll probably eventually become SEP and FRAND but aren't as of yet.
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post #6 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


Where's the rest of your post? Why shouldn't Samsung be able to protect its LTE patents? They worked hard creating it and they'll probably eventually become SEP and FRAND but aren't as of yet.


they can, but Apple also owns 400 patents on LTE so really it's a wash.

post #7 of 78
THIS IS FUCKING BULLSHIT. FUCK SAMSUNG. LTE is SEP and FRAND, now that the best selling phones use it, and if it's not, it should be. THIS IS SUCH BS.

 

 


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post #8 of 78
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
Where's the rest of your post?

 

It's implied.


Why shouldn't Samsung be able to protect its LTE patents?

 

They are. The chip manufacturer is already paying the FRAND price to make them. Apple does not have to pay Samsung again to use said chips in their devices.

post #9 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


they can, but Apple also owns 400 patents on LTE so really it's a wash.

Since when is 400 vs 800 a wash? I think Samsung's patents are overseas patents, making a LTE phone in the states is allowed but once it becomes worldwide that's a problem.
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post #10 of 78
If Samsung is successful at stopping the iPhone5, what will they copy? ;-) -RJ
post #11 of 78

Apple developed about 46 themselves and acquired the rest of those patents from not only Nortel but Freescale, who both help lead the development of LTE. That may say something about the value of Apple's LTE patents. Apple will also most likely use Qualcomm's chips. Worst case Apple will use those LTE patents they own to sue Samsung back.. 

post #12 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm5150 View Post

Apple developed about 46 themselves and acquired the rest of those patents from not only Nortel but Freescale, who both help lead the development of LTE. That may say something about the value of Apple's LTE patents. Apple will also most likely use Qualcomm's chips. Worst case Apple will use those LTE patents they own to sue Samsung back.. 

To be fair, some patents are SEP, as in you can't make a working LTE chip without them, and some patents are pure software, which are still SEP, but are easy to "turn off" and degrade performance to 3G. If either company succeeded in suing each other for SEP LTE patents that were entirely software, they could just turn off the LTE and keep on selling the device. It's the patents that make up the hardware part that actually could result in a ban on the device.

Take the patents for the USIM for example. The SIM card size may involve patents, but they could also just use the original shape and size and avoid it altogether. Patents on the CDMA technology are one of the reasons Qualcomm is practically the only manufacturer of 3G and later chips to begin with. As it is, it is impossible to make a cell phone without stepping on SEP's because of the 20 year life a patent has. What was the mobile phone network like in 1992? More like "There were mobile phones in 1992?" Those technologies are being shut down (AMPS, 1G TDMA and CDMA, 2G GSM and 1X) so their frequencies can be reused for 4G. If you wanted to make a cell phone that didn't use any patents, there would be no mobile phone network it would work on.
post #13 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


... Apple also owns 400 patents on LTE so really it's a wash.

Since when is 400 vs 800 a wash? .....

Is this what they teach at Apple University? Wow, what a great innovation !!!
post #14 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

It's implied.

They are. The chip manufacturer is already paying the FRAND price to make them. Apple does not have to pay Samsung again to use said chips in their devices.

They aren't FRAND yet, Samsung holds 13% and Apple has 5% of LTE patents, the rest are held by a host of others including HTC. They could very well make things difficult for Apple.
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post #15 of 78
Here is what I don't get. Apple is going to be using a 4G/LTE chipset that is designed and mfg by another mfg. I don't understand what the problem is. Doesn't the company that actually makes the freaking chip the one that has to pay licensing to others if they legally have to? Apple's not designing their own chipset for 4G/LTE capability, but just building in another mfg., in this case Qualcomm.

And Qualcomm's chipset, that Apple might be using also does 4G/LTE Advanced.
post #16 of 78
Originally Posted by edwardkim View Post
Is this what they teach at Apple University? Wow, what a great innovation !!!

 

Is what what they teach? Be careful.

post #17 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


Since when is 400 vs 800 a wash? I think Samsung's patents are overseas patents, making a LTE phone in the states is allowed but once it becomes worldwide that's a problem.


Easily, it's not the number. If Sammy can ask for 2.5% for all their SEP, Apple can counter-sue for 2.5% for their SEP.

post #18 of 78
Looks like two can play the (rather senseless) litigation game...
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post #19 of 78
I would like to know how one can have hundreds of patents on a single type of technology? Are they counting countries, with one patent each?
post #20 of 78

I thought that these patents were paid for in the price of the chips Apple bought from the manufacturer.  If so, how can Samsung sue them when they already paid?  If not, can someone tell me which LTE patents Samsung owns that are not part of the chip price and are not FRAND/SEP?  Thanks in advance.

post #21 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

The chip manufacturer is already paying the FRAND price to make them. Apple does not have to pay Samsung again to use said chips in their devices.

If that is true, Apple will have the paperwork to file a motion to dismiss due to patent exhaustion. End of game

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post #22 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Looks like two can play the (rather senseless) litigation game...

But since Samsung is doing it out of retaliation, Apple's first move makes them the bigger @ssholes.....right?

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post #23 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

But since Samsung is doing it out of retaliation, Apple's first move makes them the bigger @ssholes.....right?

No, no. It's OK when people sue Apple, even if they are suing them for FRAND patents Apple is trying to pay fairly for or when they are planning to sue them for a currently unannounced device based on rumours. It's all perfectly reasonable.

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post #24 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSteelers View Post

I thought that these patents were paid for in the price of the chips Apple bought from the manufacturer.  If so, how can Samsung sue them when they already paid?  If not, can someone tell me which LTE patents Samsung owns that are not part of the chip price and are not FRAND/SEP?  Thanks in advance.

No, no one here can tell you those answers.  Sorry.  Become a lawyer and get a job for either Samsung or Apple, and then you might be able to get your answer in about 15 years.

post #25 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickprinter View Post

But since Samsung is doing it out of retaliation, Apple's first move makes them the bigger @ssholes.....right?

I'm not sure you know the meaning of the word "first".

 

The first person to sue is not the first person to act.  The first offense was the copying that Samsung was found dramatically guilty of.  

post #26 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

I'm not sure you know the meaning of the word "first".

The first person to sue is not the first person to act.  The first offense was the copying that Samsung was found dramatically guilty of.  

That's a good point but I think he meant it as first move in regards to 'it' is legal action, not first move in all.

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post #27 of 78

This really is getting ri-god-damn-diculous. If it were an actual war, I'd think it'd be time for Apple to nuke Samsung from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

post #28 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


Easily, it's not the number. If Sammy can ask for 2.5% for all their SEP, Apple can counter-sue for 2.5% for their SEP.

That's assuming that Samsung needs to use any of Apple's patents.
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post #29 of 78

Another brilliant legal move by Samsung.

 

 

 

/s

 

 

Apple's likely already 10 steps ahead. 

post #30 of 78

Not only are most of these patents FRAND patents which should by contract have a very low fee, most of them are also 'exhausted'.  That means that the chip maker (Qualcomm for example) has ALREADY paid the patent fee, so Apple should not need to pay it again. 

post #31 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


That's a good point but I think he meant it as first move in regards to 'it' is legal action, not first move in all.

Clearly, but that's absurd. 

 

If I run into you with my car and then you call the cops to report it, who shoulders the blame for the unpleasantness that follows?

post #32 of 78
This apple-Samsung thing is shaping up to be a problem between USA and south Korea. There is already talk of Apple making this an issue in regards to USA-south Korea FTA. If this is the case korea and Samsung will both throw in the towel. No country in the world is gonna mess with USA.
post #33 of 78
I can see Korean Samsung fanboys coming onto this site to bash apple, as I can tell by their screen names.
Edited by 69ergoo - 9/10/12 at 8:47pm
post #34 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoadm View Post

I love how Samsung claim they 'Innovate, not litigate', now they're preparing litigation over something which they don't even know exactly what they're litigating for

 

Yeah, if Apple are "litigators, not innovators", then Samsung can't help but copy that too. <wink>

 

I hope Samsung sues, because when they lose, it'll show just how petty and hollow their case was.

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post #35 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Clearly, but that's absurd. 

 

If I run into you with my car and then you call the cops to report it, who shoulders the blame for the unpleasantness that follows?

Allow me to clarify my comment, of which Solip knew exactly what I meant given his recollection of DaHarder's post I am poking fun at. You see, DaHarder, during the latest Apple/Samsung $1B award trial, was saying that Apple are, essentially, a-holes for suing Samsung over rounded rectangles and that they are bullying and taking the patent suit too far. Now that Samsung is the aggressor, it's justified because Apple opened the can of worms. Hopefully Solip is right where the LTE patent royalties that are due Samsung were already covered on the component side in the purchase cost of the broadband chip. Samsung is trying to double dip, just like Motorola did about 18 months ago, and charge Apple again on the front end based on the net price of the iPhone.

 

When it starts in November, the Moto/Apple trial should be open and shut and since Apple paid Qualcomm (the presumed baseband chip supplier) for the LTE chip, this (looming) Samsung case should be open and shut, also. 

 

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57492514-37/apple-scores-courtroom-wins-in-motorola-frand-case/

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post #36 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Clearly, but that's absurd. 

If I run into you with my car and then you call the cops to report it, who shoulders the blame for the unpleasantness that follows?

Your pronoun 'it' is clearly choosing who is at fault while his pronoun 'it' is talking about legal action. I know you know the difference.

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post #37 of 78
Whatever. Samsung's butt is still raw from getting spanked to the tune of a bit more than a Billion dollars.

If in fact Apple is using Samsung's technology, it'll get sorted out in court. Considering the LTE tech that Apple owns, I doubt that it'll be much of a problem if at all. Samsung is trying to make this into waaaay more than it'll likely turn out to be.

Samsung, save the drama for your mama!
post #38 of 78
The issue is other LTE phones that are being offered by other phone makers. Is it wrong to assume that other device makers are making use of Samsung's LTE IP? I would suspect so. Then Samsung must have licensed their patents to these of device makers at reasonable prices.

My naive and uninformed guess is that, since Apple is using LTE chips from Qualcomm and they would have licensed the IP from Samsung, then Apple is legally entitled to use the chips.

I do recall some other lawsuit against Apple by some company claiming Apple could not use chips made by a licensed company without also paying additional licensing fees to the IP owner. Apple as a third party argued it had the right to do so. Was this IP owner Samsung?

Anybody remember that case and its resolution?
post #39 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


If that is true, Apple will have the paperwork to file a motion to dismiss due to patent exhaustion. End of game

 

That's how Sanscum lost their pants in the CA court recently. It seems to me that Samscum's management thinks the world courts are as crooked as their local courts.

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post #40 of 78
Samsung still doesn't understand exhaustion. I would say they should ask their lawyers, but it is pretty clear they don't understand either.
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