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Bloody Hell Romney: Show Some Patriotism During This Awful Crisis!

post #1 of 207
Thread Starter 

Romney's attack on Obama over the recent embassy protest with the American lives lost is so disgraceful I think he should drop out of the race for president.

 

Here's salon-

 

 

The foolishness of Romney’s reaction is glaring. Pretending that the statement from the U.S. embassy in Cairo was anything other than a completely understandable and reasonable attempt by its occupants to save their own lives borders on disgraceful. Romney’s implication that the statement was issued at the height of the attacks is also false; it was actually released earlier in the day, a preventive measure aimed at keeping the protests from turning violent.

But this hasn’t stopped other Republicans – including RNC chairman Reince Priebus and Sarah Palin – from echoing the Romney line.

~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/sep/12/libya-egypt-attacks-muhammad-film-live




""I'm outraged by the attacks on American diplomatic missions in Libya and Egypt and by the death of an American consulate worker in Benghazi," Romney said in the statement. "It's disgraceful that the Obama Administration's first response was not to condemn attacks on our diplomatic missions, but to sympathize with those who waged the attacks.""






My heart goes out to the family and friends of those who died. They are heroes for what they do. I wish all others serving in dangerous places all the security they need.

I can't say here what help I've had in the past from such people, but I will say here that these people are often very exceptional people who give their time and energy in ways that go far beyond what one might expect, or is ever expected of them. I can't thank them enough.
Edited by Hands Sandon - 9/12/12 at 1:11pm
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post #2 of 207

C'mon Hands, tell us: How much?

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post #3 of 207
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

C'mon Hands, tell us: How much?

This is not the time to derail a thread mj. Sheesh. 

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post #4 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

This is not the time to derail a thread mj. Sheesh. 

 

My question is perfectly relevant to your thread.

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post #5 of 207
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

My question is perfectly relevant to your thread.

OK, you win, $0. Now can we get on with discussing the thread topic?
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post #6 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

OK, you win, $0. Now can we get on with discussing the thread topic?

 

Really? Wow. So you're just a volunteer then? You must really believe strongly in him.

 

As for the thread topic...what is it again, the posting of an opinion piece by a liberal who disagrees with what Mitt Romney said? lol.gif

 

What would be more interesting to discuss would be an opinion piece by a liberal who disagreed with what Obama has said and done. lol.gif

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post #7 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

This is not the time to derail a thread mj. Sheesh. 

 

My question is perfectly relevant to your thread.

 

It really isn't relevant - by definition it's ad hominem. The OP's motivation for raising the issue has no impact on the issue itself. Do you have a view on Mitt Romney's response?

post #8 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

It really isn't relevant - by definition it's ad hominem.

 

lol.gif I know. But it so much fun poking those who are so obviously in the bag for Obama.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

Do you have a view on Mitt Romney's response?

 

Nope. Well other than I'm waiting for someone to say: Let's just get the hell out of and stop meddling in places we're obviously not wanted. I doubt he said that and more than likely views this as further justification for US military power projection around the world.

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post #9 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

Do you have a view on Mitt Romney's response?

 

Nope. Well other than I'm waiting for someone to say: Let's just get the hell out of and stop meddling in places we're obviously not wanted. I doubt he said that and more than likely views this as further justification for US military power projection around the world.

 

Fair enough, although this particular event is not quite so solidly related to the power projection issue, and looks like it might raise some interesting questions regarding the motivation of, and background to, the production of the movie that could reflect poorly on the US.

post #10 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

Fair enough, although this particular event is not quite so solidly related to the power projection issue, and looks like it might raise some interesting questions regarding the motivation of, and background to, the production of the movie that could reflect poorly on the US.

 

What questions are those?

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post #11 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

Fair enough, although this particular event is not quite so solidly related to the power projection issue, and looks like it might raise some interesting questions regarding the motivation of, and background to, the production of the movie that could reflect poorly on the US.

What questions are those?

From what I've read so far - we have a film that vilifies (not sure yet if that is too strong a description) Islam but is justified by the producers not as factual or accurate, but by their right to free speech. Not very convincing, and looks suspiciously like an obvious attempt to inflame public opinion on both sides, but why?
post #12 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

From what I've read so far - we have a film that vilifies (not sure yet if that is too strong a description) Islam but is justified by the producers not as factual or accurate, but by their right to free speech. Not very convincing, and looks suspiciously like an obvious attempt to inflame public opinion on both sides, but why?

 

Don't know why. Has the film actually been identified yet? Early reports were unsure what film was causing the issue. Regardless though, would this justify these violent attacks?

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post #13 of 207

As usual the Republican candidate is busy shooting himself in the foot in a very inappropriate way. We really don't want this self serving guy as President.

 

A Good read on this subject.

 

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/12/13831663-ex-ambassador-very-disappointed-in-unwise-romney-response

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post #14 of 207

Nice job Obama!

 

I think that he should embark on another worldwide apology tour. There are a lot of angry Muslims and other sorts of psychopaths to appease. He should also bow some more to foreign leaders, like he's been known for doing.

 

Obama is too busy to even attend daily intelligence briefs and he usually skips them, because he's too busy with other things such as speaking to the "Pimp with the Limp" and playing golf. Bush attended these security meetings when he was Prez, but Obama obviously has other more important, pressing issues to attend to, like campaigning to get his own sorry ass elected again.

 

How's that "Arab spring" working out again? lol.gif

 

Obama foreign policy is a complete disaster, and he's done immense damage to the USA and it's reputation.

 

And what about that weak ass and pathetic statement from the embassy? That's not how Americans should act, you don't suck up and give in to cowardly and murderous savages! Station a thousand marines to protect and defend US property and mow down any savages and terrorists who might happen to get any bright ideas.

 

Also cut out all aid for any of these primitive countries, and let them rot.

post #15 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

As usual the Republican candidate is busy shooting himself in the foot in a very inappropriate way. We really don't want this self serving guy as President.

 

Other than listening to the media's opinions and Democratic talking points, how did you arrive at the conclusion that Romney was "shooting himself in the foot in a very inappropriate way" and being "self serving?"

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post #16 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

Fair enough, although this particular event is not quite so solidly related to the power projection issue, and looks like it might raise some interesting questions regarding the motivation of, and background to, the production of the movie that could reflect poorly on the US.

 

The film is entirely irrelevant to the discussion, IMO. 

 

It doesn't matter what motives the film makers may have had. Maybe they hate muslims and they think that Islam sucks. That doesn't change anything. It's called freedom of speech and we Americans do not abide by any blasphemy laws.

post #17 of 207

So the administration and media want us to believe that some obscure film no-one's ever heard of was responsible for a planned ambush at the U.S. Embassy, which happened on a Tuesday (not a Friday, as commonly happens with Muslim religious riots.) Oh, and it just happened to be September 11th.

 

Where's Sammi when you need her?

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post #18 of 207
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

 

The film is entirely irrelevant to the discussion, IMO. 

 

It doesn't matter what motives the film makers may have had. Maybe they hate muslims and they think that Islam sucks. That doesn't change anything. It's called freedom of speech and we Americans do not abide by any blasphemy laws.

This is probably the only thing I have ever agreed with you on. It's testament to how backward these insane pathetic little creatures are, that this happened. That said, the security of our staff is vital and should sometimes be taken into account by those who may anger these small minded terrorist monsters. 

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post #19 of 207

RINO Mit wouldn't do any better.  We need a President with the guts to clean house over there and run the Muslim Brotherhood out of our own government.

post #20 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
That said, the security of our staff is vital and should sometimes be taken into account by those who may anger these small minded terrorist monsters. 

 

I agree, but who is ultimately responsible for the security of the staff? Surely not some filmmaker or any amateur who decides to make a crappy little movie?

 

Why was there not better security at the embassy? Where were the marines? Why were they relying on Libyan security? 

 

I do disagree with those people (usually liberals) who claim that freedom of speech has certain limits and they blame the film maker, or the cartoon drawer, or the girl who got raped because she was wearing a very short skirt. The blame lies solely with the murderous thugs and people who still live in the 12th century.

 

If it wasn't this film then it would have been something else, like a stick figure drawing or anything really. Islam is not immune from criticism or ridicule, and if a few people die here and there, then that only strengthens the position of those who are doing the criticizing. A wife beater doesn't need any excuses to beat his wife, he'll always come up with a reason.

post #21 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

Fair enough, although this particular event is not quite so solidly related to the power projection issue, and looks like it might raise some interesting questions regarding the motivation of, and background to, the production of the movie that could reflect poorly on the US.

 

The film is entirely irrelevant to the discussion, IMO. 

 

It doesn't matter what motives the film makers may have had. Maybe they hate muslims and they think that Islam sucks. That doesn't change anything. It's called freedom of speech and we Americans do not abide by any blasphemy laws.

 

It's certainly irrelevant to the violence, and I was not trying to imply otherwise. That does not mean that it cannot do damage to the image of the US abroad. And yes, I realize that some people don't think that matters and that robust exercise of freedom of speech, however hateful, is always to be applauded. 

post #22 of 207
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

As usual the Republican candidate is busy shooting himself in the foot in a very inappropriate way. We really don't want this self serving guy as President.

 

A Good read on this subject.

 

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/12/13831663-ex-ambassador-very-disappointed-in-unwise-romney-response

An apology from Romney will never wash now. This has to be the most outrageous thing anyone has ever said whilst running for president. 

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post #23 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
That said, the security of our staff is vital and should sometimes be taken into account by those who may anger these small minded terrorist monsters. 

 

I agree, but who is ultimately responsible for the security of the staff? Surely not some filmmaker or any amateur who decides to make a crappy little movie?

 

Why was there not better security at the embassy? Where were the marines? Why were they relying on Libyan security? 

 

I do disagree with those people (usually liberals) who claim that freedom of speech has certain limits and they blame the film maker, or the cartoon drawer, or the girl who got raped because she was wearing a very short skirt. The blame lies solely with the murderous thugs and people who still live in the 12th century.

 

If it wasn't this film then it would have been something else, like a stick figure drawing or anything really. Islam is not immune from criticism or ridicule, and if a few people die here and there, then that only strengthens the position of those who are doing the criticizing. A wife beater doesn't need any excuses to beat his wife, he'll always come up with a reason.

 

Some good points, but I still think that it is important to distinguish between fair satire and malevolent attack. While the Islamic world has, in the past, demonstrated an inability to do that, we should be able to make that distinction. If this film had targeted Christ instead of Muhammad, I would guess that we would not have seen this kind of violent response, but also that a lot of those who are now vociferously defending freedom of speech would have been strangely silent.

post #24 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

That does not mean that it cannot do damage to the image of the US abroad. 

 

I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. 

 

The US believes in freedom of speech and we don't have blasphemy laws where people are executed for daring to criticize religion.

 

Many countries in the world are primitive, backwards and barbaric places that don't agree with that view. I think that It's ok if they don't like us. Personally speaking, I don't want those kind of countries to like us, they never will anyway, as their fundamental views are completely opposite from what we believe in. They might as well be from another planet.

post #25 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

If this film had targeted Christ instead of Muhammad, I would guess that we would not have seen this kind of violent response, but also that a lot of those who are now vociferously defending freedom of speech would have been strangely silent.

 

That is simply an outright lie.

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post #26 of 207
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

So the administration and media want us to believe that some obscure film no-one's ever heard of was responsible for a planned ambush at the U.S. Embassy, which happened on a Tuesday (not a Friday, as commonly happens with Muslim religious riots.) Oh, and it just happened to be September 11th.

 

Where's Sammi when you need her?

That's a loaded statement, one typical of someone who just wants to denigrate the Obama administration and the so called "liberal media". To begin with, like a lot of other people I suspect, all I knew was that several people had been killed during the Libyan protest. Now it appears not be an angry mob, as such, who killed them, but a well armed group who also killed two marines during the attack. I notice too you haven't said anything about Romney's outrageous and factually incorrect comments. Go figure.

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post #27 of 207
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 If this film had targeted Christ instead of Muhammad, I would guess that we would not have seen this kind of violent response, but also that a lot of those who are now vociferously defending freedom of speech would have been strangely silent.

I'm sure there are a few people who would take that approach, but I don't think any regular posters here would and only an extreme minority in the US. This is very much an Islamic problem, some (too many) in the US and Europe, but mostly those in the middle east.

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post #28 of 207
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

It's certainly irrelevant to the violence, and I was not trying to imply otherwise. That does not mean that it cannot do damage to the image of the US abroad. And yes, I realize that some people don't think that matters and that robust exercise of freedom of speech, however hateful, is always to be applauded. 

I think it's always important to remember that our words matter. Freedom of speech should be preserved, but we also have to take into account their effect. I'm not likely to walk up to a someone and call them an ass and expect no consequences. 

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post #29 of 207

Libertarian Party Presidential Candidate Gary Johnson's statement on the attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya

 

Quote:
It is tragic when Americans serving their country are murdered, and we both mourn their loss and honor their service.
 
Part of honoring that service is to ask the obvious question: What U.S. interest is being served by putting our people – and our money – in places where U.S. personnel can be killed by extremists over a video? We launched millions of dollars worth of missiles to bring down Gaddafi, and this is what we get. We hail and encourage the outbreak of an Arab Spring in Egypt, send them billions of dollars we can’t afford, — and our embassy is breached and our flag desecrated.
 
In Afghanistan, we continue to put our troops in harm’s way 10 years after our post-9/11 mission was complete. Why?
 
The airwaves are filled today with political chest-pounding and calls for decisive action. The most decisive and prudent action we can take today is to stop trying to manage governments and peoples on the other side of the globe who don’t want to be managed, get our people out of impossible situations that have no direct U.S. interest, and immediately stop sending money to regimes who clearly cannot or will not control their own countries.
 
Protecting America with a strong national defense and a rational foreign policy is our leaders’ most basic responsibility. But let us not confuse national security with senseless intervention where our interests are clearly not being served.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #30 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

If this film had targeted Christ instead of Muhammad, I would guess that we would not have seen this kind of violent response, but also that a lot of those who are now vociferously defending freedom of speech would have been strangely silent.

 

That is simply an outright lie.

 

That they would have been silent?  Either way - not a lie, because as stated - that is my guess what would have happened.

post #31 of 207
Thread Starter 

Full quote from Obama in the 60 minutes interview. It's an excellent one-

 

"I think most Americans, Democrats or Republicans, understand that there are times when we set politics aside, and one of those is when we've got a direct threat to American personnel who are overseas," President Obama said.

 

"And so I think that if you look at how most Republicans have reacted, most elected officials, they've reacted responsibly, waiting to find out the facts before they talk, making sure that our No. 1 priority is the safety and security of American personnel."

"It appears that Gov. Romney didn't have his facts right. The situation in Cairo was one in which an embassy that is being threatened by major protests releases a press release saying that the film that had disturbed so many Muslims around the world wasn't representative of what Americans believe about Islam."

"In an effort to cool the situation down, it didn't come from me, it didn't come form Secretary Clinton, it came from people on the ground who are potentially in danger. And my tendency is to cut folks a little bit of slack when they're in that circumstance, rather than try to question their judgment from the comfort of a campaign office," Obama said.

"I do have to say that, more broadly, we believe in the First Amendment. It is one of the hallmarks of our Constitution that I am sworn to uphold, so we're always going to uphold the rights of individuals to speak their minds. On the other hand, this film is not representative of who we are, and our values, and I think it is important for us to communicate that. That's never an excuse for violence against Americans, which is why my No. 1 priority and my initial statement focused on making sure that not only are Americans safe, but that we go after anyone that would attack Americans."

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post #32 of 207
Thread Starter 

There is an awful photo (warning: graphic) of Ambassador Stevens here taken shortly before he was murdered. I'm posting the link simply to inform this discussion. It's your choice whether you click on it or not- http://wdtprs.com/blog/2012/09/us-ambassador-to-libyastaff-killed-by-a-mob/

 

Edit- The site I linked to above claimed the photo was taken before Stevens was murdered. According to what I've read elsewhere the people in the photo are taking Stevens to get medical help. The smoke inhalation was so bad he died though.


Edited by Hands Sandon - 9/12/12 at 5:03pm
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post #33 of 207

1.  Romney made his statements before he knew about the deaths.

 

2.  Romney is correct.  What we are seeing now is a direct result of the President's completely ineffective, incompetent and dangerous policy in the Middle East. He pushed out the friendly, stable, pseudo-dictator in favor of the Muslim Brotherhood and radical Islamists.  Mubarak may have sucked, but he was known, kept stability and relatively friendly towards our interests.   Additionally, he led from behind in taking military action Libya before we really were sure who the rebels were.  And worst of all, our pathetic and weak response to these current attacks will only invite more. 

 

But hey, let's start a threat criticizing Mitt Romney for pointing out how Obama is getting people killed with his policies.  Yeah, that's the ticket. 

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #34 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There is an awful photo (warning: graphic) of Ambassador Stevens here taken shortly before he was murdered. I'm posting the link simply to inform this discussion. It's your choice whether you click on it or not- http://wdtprs.com/blog/2012/09/us-ambassador-to-libyastaff-killed-by-a-mob/

 

How does this "inform" the discussion?

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post #35 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

How does this "inform" the discussion?

 

I'll what you what does:  The fact that the OP started a thread blaming Mitt Romney for something that happened under Obama's watch as a direct result of the latter's incompetence. 

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post #36 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

Many countries in the world are primitive, backwards and barbaric places that don't agree with that view. I think that It's ok if they don't like us. Personally speaking, I don't want those kind of countries to like us, they never will anyway, as their fundamental views are completely opposite from what we believe in. They might as well be from another planet.

 

'This Does Not Represent Us': Moving Photos of Pro-American Rallies in Libya

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #37 of 207
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

How does this "inform" the discussion?

Maybe you and I have different definitions of "inform", if you can't understand how it informs the discussion.

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post #38 of 207
Thread Starter 

There are a lot of people in Libya who are grateful for Americas help, want peace and are likely to find these attacks appalling. 


Edited by Hands Sandon - 9/12/12 at 5:17pm
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post #39 of 207
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

I'll what you what does:  The fact that the OP started a thread blaming Mitt Romney for something that happened under Obama's watch as a direct result of the latter's incompetence. 

You and I live in very different worlds, luckily. lol.gif

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post #40 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

As usual the Republican candidate is busy shooting himself in the foot in a very inappropriate way. We really don't want this self serving guy as President.

 

Other than listening to the media's opinions and Democratic talking points, how did you arrive at the conclusion that Romney was "shooting himself in the foot in a very inappropriate way" and being "self serving?"

Look most voters already don't really like Romney  and his actions on this just serve to underscore that. The guy is just trying to win anyway he can ( even if it meeans shooting his mouth off ) which he won't of course.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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