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Open Internet groups to file FCC complaint over AT&T's FaceTime blocking - Page 2

post #41 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe View Post

That's an Apple problem or deliberate decision, not a Verizon network issue; that's been hashed out plenty. Everyone's different but considering I'm on a voice call less than 10% of the time i use my iPhone and 50% of that is within Wifi, I don't see it being an issue. So yes, with a larger network in general, way more LTE, and the grandfathered $30 unlimited internet plan with a 19% discount, for me it's > by a wide margin. YMMV

 

Well - my intent of the first post  was not to derail the thread - which is about ATT charging for unlimited intent on older contracts, and then deciding that its not all the ports - so no facetime for example, which I would imagine for the average user would be small compared to streaming netflix..
as for the  voice and data, the CDMA networks used by Verizon and Sprint don't permit simultaneous use of a data connection and a voice connection - dont know what you mean about hashed out - its not apple - ts the coma system verizon had at the time - expectations by many were that simultaneous use would be permitted in LTE areas - but that does appear restricted as well - 
post #42 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe View Post

One again, Verizon > AT&T

 

Coupled with my grandfathered Unlimited plan, couldn't be happier.

Not true. with verizon data shared plans are now the ONLY plans, so singe people who arent buying cell phones for a house full of teenagers get hozed.

You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #43 of 82

I dropped ATT and went with Sprint....I just got tired of ATT. What a crappy company...just like Cox cable!

post #44 of 82

Just for the fun of it, I tried using FaceTime over cellular and low and behold, it's working perfectly.

 

To be sure, we do NOT have a shared AT&T Data Plan. Ours is still the original unlimited Data Plan we had with our original iPhones (1st gen.).

Family plan for voice, separate unlimited plans for data.

 

Haven't tried if this is just between phones on the same account or anyone, but it's the one that matters most to me.

post #45 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Right_said_fred View Post

which is about ATT charging for unlimited intent on older contracts, and then deciding that its not all the ports - so no facetime for example, which I would imagine for the average user would be small compared to streaming netflix.

That's the thing. It is NOT like streaming Netflix. FaceTime needs a higher priority since you can't carry on a conversation if it freezes and buffers all the time which is apparently acceptable with Netflix. I can understand AT&T's reasoning for wanting to charge more because it is not like other data. It is on the same priority as voice.

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post #46 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Right_said_fred View Post

dont know what you mean about hashed out - its not apple - ts the coma system verizon had at the time - expectations by many were that simultaneous use would be permitted in LTE areas - but that does appear restricted as well - 

 

Simultaneous voice and data does work in LTE areas on Verizon with some LTE phones.  However Apple did not include enough antennas for it to work on the iPhone 5, that is why he said that it is Apple's fault, because if Apple would have added another antenna it would have worked.

post #47 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

Not true. with verizon data shared plans are now the ONLY plans, so singe people who arent buying cell phones for a house full of teenagers get hozed.

Not true, you can keep your plan, you just pay full price for the phone. Works for me. No contract, and unlimited data. 

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post #48 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Right_said_fred View Post
as for the  voice and data, the CDMA networks used by Verizon and Sprint don't permit simultaneous use of a data connection and a voice connection - dont know what you mean about hashed out - its not apple - ts the coma system verizon had at the time - expectations by many were that simultaneous use would be permitted in LTE areas - but that does appear restricted as well - 

 

Don't post on what you don't understand. Every LTE phone on Verizon supports simultaneous voice and data (within an LTE area), the iPhone 5 will be the first one that does not as Apple did not include an antenna to support it. That WAS Apple's choice, not the chipset. The Qualcomm chip supports it, as well as Verizon's network. Several devices even support voice and data on 3G CDMA including the Galaxy S3 (which also has LTE integrated) and going back to the HTC Thunderbolt. On Sprint similar story with the Evo 4G LTE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkxBsVOy2Z4

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post #49 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe View Post

Not true, you can keep your plan, you just pay full price for the phone. Works for me. No contract, and unlimited data. 

As an ATT user who wants to switch, your plan is not goign to be availible to me.

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post #50 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkirk81 View Post

Meanwhile here in the little UK, I get unlimited data with Giffgaff for £10/$15 a month with no contract! That includes FaceTime! When it comes to telecoms, the USA is a rip off :/

 

Are they still billing landlines to call cell phones?

post #51 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe View Post

 

Don't post on what you don't understand. Every LTE phone on Verizon supports simultaneous voice and data (within an LTE area), the iPhone 5 will be the first one that does not as Apple did not include an antenna to support it. That WAS Apple's choice, not the chipset. The Qualcomm chip supports it, as well as Verizon's network. Several devices even support voice and data on 3G CDMA including the Galaxy S3 (which also has LTE integrated) and going back to the HTC Thunderbolt. On Sprint similar story with the Evo 4G LTE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkxBsVOy2Z4

f people on here only posted on subjects they understood - there would be fewer posts...

except for the mac spell checker chnaging CDMA to coma....

I said that CDMA as implemented by Verizon does NOT support simultaneous data and talk - so you maybe wrong on this....

LTE sa implemented by Verizon may allow it ( ithink it does but i dont know for sure - ) but i understand that iPhone 5 will still not allow simultaneous usage - that may be verizons or Aplpes issue - i dont know 

post #52 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe View Post

One again, Verizon > AT&T

 

Coupled with my grandfathered Unlimited plan, couldn't be happier.

 

so you like that you can never get a subsidy from Verizon again and will have to pay full price for your phones from now on. 

 

to each his own

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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post #53 of 82
Originally Posted by Right_said_fred View Post
LTE sa implemented by Verizon may allow it ( ithink it does but i dont know for sure - ) but i understand that iPhone 5 will still not allow simultaneous usage - that may be verizons or Aplpes issue - i dont know 

 

Both. Verizon does not yet have an established VoLTE protocol in place, Apple did not include the third antenna that would have made possible Verizon's existing voice+data workaround.

 

I believe that Apple was correct in their action, but incorrect in thinking that Verizon will actually do this in any acceptable amount of time. 

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post #54 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Right_said_fred View Post

...

I said that CDMA as implemented by Verizon does NOT support simultaneous data and talk - so you maybe wrong on this....

 

EXCEPT THAT IT DOES FOR THE THIRD TIME. Please. Read.

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post #55 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Both. Verizon does not yet have an established VoLTE protocol in place,

 

That's another issue. There isn't a real global unified VoLTE standard in the LTE documentation. Yet more fractured mess. 

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post #56 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

 

so you like that you can never get a subsidy from Verizon again and will have to pay full price for your phones from now on. 

 

to each his own

 

I do. Here's the funny part, for a single line, you actually SAVE money over the course of 2 years. The new plans are more expensive than the upfront cost of the device, not to mention you're contract free and keep unlimited LTE. Math is interesting when worked out. 

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post #57 of 82
The recent disclosure that uncovered that Verizon still uses CDMA to handle voice calls, while using LTE for data only helps explain why Verizon would be OK with FaceTime calls, and not AT
post #58 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by msimpson View Post

The recent disclosure that uncovered that Verizon still uses CDMA to handle voice calls, while using LTE for data only helps explain why Verizon would be OK with FaceTime calls, and not AT

How do you figure? AT&T would be using LTE for data also and 3G for voice. What is the difference? Facetime still needs to be prioritized to not stutter or drop frames and audio. That is where the problem with FaceTime over cellular is. Regular old data can buffer ahead for audio and video and also an occasional freeze is not going to be a deal beaker, but when you are having a conversation you don't want it to be out of lip sync let alone freeze up from time to time. It costs more to provide that level of service.

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post #59 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

How do you figure? AT&T would be using LTE for data also and 3G for voice. What is the difference? Facetime still needs to be prioritized to not stutter or drop frames and audio. That is where the problem with FaceTime over cellular is. Regular old data can buffer ahead for audio and video and also an occasional freeze is not going to be a deal beaker, but when you are having a conversation you don't want it to be out of lip sync let alone freeze up from time to time. It costs more to provide that level of service.

All good network ops already have network optimization in place to handle video/audio conferancing with priority over the punch the monkey web banners or whatever a milisecond delay wont impact...This is not about QoS, this is about access to the data network period for facetime.

You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #60 of 82
I signed the petition. Tmobile USA is looking better and better. They offer unlimited everything for $69/mo. Their LTE lights up in 2013 and is a faster technology than used by the other carriers. And in case your signal is poor, they give you free Wi-Fi calling.

http://t-mobile-coverage.t-mobile.com/4g-wireless-broadband-service

I'm tempted to bring my unlocked iPhone to them today.

http://blog.t-mobile.com/2012/09/10/t-mobile-steps-up-bring-your-own-iphone-efforts/
post #61 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Do you know of any Straight Talk plans to support LTE of either the Verizon or AT&T bands?

Straight Talk uses AT&T, so LTE would, in theory, be possible, but it's not currently available - and may never be. Fortunately, HSPA+ is fast enough for me, but if it's not, you might have a problem.

There is, however, a report that the t-mobile version of the iPhone will work on AT&T's LTE network:
http://www.phonenews.com/straight-talk-to-launch-lg-optimus-2x-first-high-end-prepaid-lte-android-phone-19718/

Best bet is to call Straight Talk and sort it out.
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post #62 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Maybe, but Apple did state when they introduced Facetime that they would make its specs open so that anyone could use it. I wish they had done so as promised. It would be nice to have a single videoconferencing standard that everyone used.

 

They did, but I'm tired of the hypocritical, anti-Apple bitching from the Cult of Android. Frankly, I don't care whether FaceTime or Android ever become open source, but I don't want to hear fandroids complaining about Apple when Google is doing the same crap or worse. And, yes, I knew who I was responding to.

post #63 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Right_said_fred View Post

f people on here only posted on subjects they understood - there would be fewer posts...
except for the mac spell checker chnaging CDMA to coma....
I said that CDMA as implemented by Verizon does NOT support simultaneous data and talk - so you maybe wrong on this....
LTE sa implemented by Verizon may allow it ( ithink it does but i dont know for sure - ) but i understand that iPhone 5 will still not allow simultaneous usage - that may be verizons or Aplpes issue - i dont know 

It's Apple's issue. The version of CDMA VZW uses does not allow SVAD, but with the currently only data LTE network, all LTE capable phones can access that network while on a CDMA voice call. Apple decided not to add the extra antenna that is needed. Which is curious because the almost year old Moto RAZR/MAXX is CDMA, GSM world, and LTE all in a package that for the most part is slimmer than the iPhone 5 though much wider and allows SVAD.
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post #64 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

They did, but I'm tired of the hypocritical, anti-Apple bitching from the Cult of Android. Frankly, I don't care whether FaceTime or Android ever become open source, but I don't want to hear fandroids complaining about Apple when Google is doing the same crap or worse. And, yes, I knew who I was responding to.

They did? When? And what crap has Google done?
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post #65 of 82
This is redic, I cant believe that ATT is restricting this feature on the phone ! I hate them for this and think that its BS !! How can you restrict something said in a Keynote... I can't believe Apple is even allowing them to do this its outrageous! Punish our current clients that have been loyal to us by forcing them to change their plans to use a standard feature of the iPhone ! I don't know or care if this is how they intended for it to sound but I am telling you its how it reads! Considering that public announcement from the CEO earlier this year of how "unlimited was a mistake" I knew it was only a matter of time before they tried to squeeze people out of their unlimited plans yet again.. ( 1st time was with the hot spot on iPhone
post #66 of 82

@ THEAVERAGEJOE guy That's an Apple problem or deliberate decision, not a Verizon network issue; that's been hashed out plenty.

 

get the facts straight and stop repeating what u read elsewhere- this is NOT AN APPLE PROBLEM OR ISSUE its actually the TELECOMS they can't get their act together or technology in order and have been promoting this 4G LTE as the second coming and its not even 4ANYTHING its less than that its like 3.something G but they are allowed to reword their offerings so you "THINK" your actually getting 4G when in fact your not- anyway getting back to the VERIZON PROBLEM (not apples) when the TELECOMS finally get their act together and get the LONG TERM EVOLUTION thing in order which is prob 2 years away their networks will be able to deal with the VOICE and DATA issue but for now this is a TELECOM issue for APPLE TO accommodate  VERIZON they would have to include an extra set of Antenna's and DATA chip/radios in the iPhone which would make it thicker than it currently is and all this for WHAT for VERIZON to be able to do what you can do and have been able to do for over 2 years now??? and lets say APPLE were to accommodate them then they would have to develop a new iPhone for them when they (VERIZON) gets the VoLTE thingy in order and that is the reason its not APPLE fault its VERIZON Tech and wasn't it some VERIZON BIG SHOT THE THE DAY SAY THAT THEY REALLY Don't need the iPhone as much as ATT needs it??? APPLE IS JUST FUTURE PROOFING their iOS device so that it will still be relevant in the next few years.

 

People will read your post and repeat these untruths so please get your facts straight before you say its APPLE's Problem 

BitzandBitez

post #67 of 82

 The technology in 4G LTE networks does not currently handle voice transmissions; it only does data. So when you place a phone call on a 4G LTE smartphone, it’s actually rolling back to the carrier’s older second- or third-generation network, according to AnandTech, a Web publication that does deep analysis on hardware.

That means when AT&T customers place a phone call and use data on the iPhone 5, both functions will roll back to AT&T’s older network, which can handle them simultaneously. When you place a phone call while using data in an app with a Verizon or Sprint iPhone 5, it will roll back to their older CDMA networks, which are not capable of simultaneously doing calls and data. And that’s why the iPhone 5 on Verizon and Sprint, despite being a 4G LTE device, will still not do both at the same time.

An Apple spokeswoman, Natalie Kerris, put it this way: “iPhone 5 supports simultaneous voice and data on GSM-based 3G and LTE networks. It is not yet possible to do simultaneous voice and data on networks that use CDMA for voice and LTE for data in a single radio design.”

So why does Verizon’s Samsung Galaxy S III, a 4G LTE phone, juggle calls and data? Samsung added an extra antenna so that it pulls data from the 4G LTE network at the same time that it’s using another antenna to do voice, said Anand Shimpi, editor in chief of AnandTech.

Then why didn’t Apple add another antenna? Its phone already has two antennas in an effort to improve reception, and it would have had to add a third antenna just for Verizon and Sprint phones to give them simultaneous data and calls, Mr. Shimpi explained. Leaving that third antenna out allows Apple to simplify the process of manufacturing the iPhone for multiple carriers. Plus, in the next two years, 4G LTE technology is supposed to evolve to support voice calls, which would render another antenna unnecessary.

post #68 of 82

again its APPLE FUTURE PROOFING THEIR DEVICE!!!!

post #69 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitzandbitez View Post

 The technology in 4G LTE networks does not currently handle voice transmissions; it only does data. So when you place a phone call on a 4G LTE smartphone, it’s actually rolling back to the carrier’s older second- or third-generation network, according to AnandTech, a Web publication that does deep analysis on hardware.

That means when AT&T customers place a phone call and use data on the iPhone 5, both functions will roll back to AT&T’s older network, which can handle them simultaneously. When you place a phone call while using data in an app with a Verizon or Sprint iPhone 5, it will roll back to their older CDMA networks, which are not capable of simultaneously doing calls and data. And that’s why the iPhone 5 on Verizon and Sprint, despite being a 4G LTE device, will still not do both at the same time.

An Apple spokeswoman, Natalie Kerris, put it this way: “iPhone 5 supports simultaneous voice and data on GSM-based 3G and LTE networks. It is not yet possible to do simultaneous voice and data on networks that use CDMA for voice and LTE for data in a single radio design.”

So why does Verizon’s Samsung Galaxy S III, a 4G LTE phone, juggle calls and data? Samsung added an extra antenna so that it pulls data from the 4G LTE network at the same time that it’s using another antenna to do voice, said Anand Shimpi, editor in chief of AnandTech.

Then why didn’t Apple add another antenna? Its phone already has two antennas in an effort to improve reception, and it would have had to add a third antenna just for Verizon and Sprint phones to give them simultaneous data and calls, Mr. Shimpi explained. Leaving that third antenna out allows Apple to simplify the process of manufacturing the iPhone for multiple carriers. Plus, in the next two years, 4G LTE technology is supposed to evolve to support voice calls, which would render another antenna unnecessary.

Actually, on anandtech they mentioned that it wasn't just an antenna, it is the full transmission path including a power amp and filters,

 

"What it really boils down to is that by using this single Tx chain, Apple is able to support a ton of LTE bands (more space for PAs and fewer transceiver ports used on SVLTE for CDMA networks) and also do it without making the iPhone very large. Moving to an architecture that works with SVDO and SVLTE would require an additional transmit path and antenna, and incur a size and weight penalty." http://www.anandtech.com/show/6295/why-the-iphone-5-lacks-simultaneous-voice-and-lte-or-evdo-svlte-svdo-support-

 

I wonder if there is also a battery penalty involved as well.

 

In the article, they also mention that since customers have not really complained about simultaneous voice and data on the Verizon network to this point, Apple did not consider it a necessity and even on Android phones, it is considered an added extra (delighter), not a core feature. Add in that Verizon had suggested that they would have VoLTE up and running by now, and it is apparent why Apple would leave this "feature" off.

post #70 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by msimpson View Post

The recent disclosure that uncovered that Verizon still uses CDMA to handle voice calls, while using LTE for data only helps explain why Verizon would be OK with FaceTime calls, and not AT

If Facetime is a data application, it brings up the question ... if you are not in an LTE area, can you still use FaceTime on Verizon? And if you are actually running LTE in an AT&T area, will FaceTime work?

post #71 of 82
My iPhone 5 will come with a $15 data plan, and $40 voice plan. That's the cheapest plans AT&T offers.
post #72 of 82

"limiting it in this manner to our newly developed AT&T Mobile Share data plans out of an overriding concern for the impact this expansion may have on our network"

 

So basically AT&T is openly admitting that, in spite of 5 YEARS of HUGE iPhone plan revenue rolling into their registers, they have not been using any of it to build out their network. Instead, they have been lining their own pockets and living like fat cats off of iPhone customers (for a half decade) while giving nothing back to them. In fact, the only thing iPhone customers are getting in return are HIGHER PRICED data plans and artificially limited services.

 

How much more disgustingly greedy and pathetic can AT&T get?!? 

post #73 of 82
Originally Posted by Rockarollr View Post

How much more disgustingly greedy and pathetic can AT&T get?!? 

 

Just wait for the Spring 2013 collusion of moving per-text rates to $0.30 SMS/$0.40 MMS across all carriers.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #74 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post

Well hell! There's a solution without nagging the FCC. For a second there I thought we didn't have any competition in mobile space; that every provider had the exact same plans, prices, features, pluses and minuses.

sure... thats the solution.  So if some club downtown is murdering their guests, no need to call the police or anything, just everyone can start going to a new club, problem solved!

 

Its not nagging the FCC to tell them that AT&T is breaking the law!

Quote:
Originally Posted by iButterfingers View Post

Sure it would be nice to have FaceTime over the cellular, but let be honest ... really honest with ourselves and ask your self this question ... would you really use face time?  Sure its pretty cool and all, but there is no way I would drop my AT&T unlimited plan and pay extra for a feature that I would only use once or twice every six months.  

Lets face it, when your in public, do you really want to have a conversation over FaceTime for everybody to hear?  No, so where is the one place you would feel comfortable making a FaceTime call ... at home, where most everybody has wi-fi. 

If they go ahead and reverse their decision ... great, if not ... no really big loss.  With that said, I do agree that while you are paying for DATA already, for AT&T to charge you just for the ability to use a feature that is already on your phone is not right.  You paid for your bucket of DATA and should be able to use it how you see fit ... period.  

Thats so insightful... your right, everyone in the world is just like you... and never use Facetime... and have no clue how to use headphones when they do it so others don't hear...

Just because you do not use something doesn't mean your in the majority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe View Post

Not true, you can keep your plan, you just pay full price for the phone. Works for me. No contract, and unlimited data. 

Not true, I have no plan with them to keep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waverunnr View Post

I signed the petition. Tmobile USA is looking better and better. They offer unlimited everything for $69/mo. Their LTE lights up in 2013 and is a faster technology than used by the other carriers. And in case your signal is poor, they give you free Wi-Fi calling.

http://t-mobile-coverage.t-mobile.com/4g-wireless-broadband-service

I'm tempted to bring my unlocked iPhone to them today.

http://blog.t-mobile.com/2012/09/10/t-mobile-steps-up-bring-your-own-iphone-efforts/

too expensive.  Sure their 3G (4G as they call it) is faster than most others... thats still a lot of money when I can get unlimited everything from straightalk for $45/mo

post #75 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Do you know of any Straight Talk plans to support LTE of either the Verizon or AT&T bands?
It's unlikely hte primary operators will make LTE available through MVNOs very soon. The real joke is that HSPA+ is technically capable of performing as well as the current LTE offerings. I'm not personally decided whether to wait for T-Mobile or sit with Straight Talk for another generation (but still upgrade to the 5).
post #76 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

How do you figure? AT&T would be using LTE for data also and 3G for voice. What is the difference? Facetime still needs to be prioritized to not stutter or drop frames and audio. That is where the problem with FaceTime over cellular is. Regular old data can buffer ahead for audio and video and also an occasional freeze is not going to be a deal beaker, but when you are having a conversation you don't want it to be out of lip sync let alone freeze up from time to time. It costs more to provide that level of service.
Thats twice that you've posted this and twice you've been wrong. AT&T does not offer any QoS for FaceTime. You are merely paying more for the right to pass FaceTime packets.
post #77 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by doh123 View Post

 Sure their 3G (4G as they call it) is faster than most others...

The ITU calls HSPA+ 4G now. That news wasn't very widely spread.

http://m.intomobile.com/2010/12/18/itu-reverses-its-decision-lte-wimax-and-hspa-are-now-4g/
post #78 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by focher View Post

Thats twice that you've posted this and twice you've been wrong. AT&T does not offer any QoS for FaceTime. You are merely paying more for the right to pass FaceTime packets.

 

Yes, there is no QoS promise, not even a hint of on one, for FaceTime traffic. But, even if there were, it wouldn't matter. All that would mean is that they are degrading the rest of your traffic. What the right hand giveth, the left hand taketh away.

post #79 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Yes, there is no QoS promise, not even a hint of on one, for FaceTime traffic. But, even if there were, it wouldn't matter. All that would mean is that they are degrading the rest of your traffic. What the right hand giveth, the left hand taketh away.

For the most part, but for anything that isn't timing critical, you're not likely to notice unless there is a glut of QoS traffic.
post #80 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


For the most part, but for anything that isn't timing critical, you're not likely to notice unless there is a glut of QoS traffic.

 

Unless there is a glut of traffic, unless the network is overloaded, it won't matter whether there is QoS priority or not. By its nature, for QoS to make a difference for one service, something else has to be paying the price.

 

But, again, there is no QoS priority promised for FaceTime. All AT&T is offering is not to block it, if you pay them more.

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