Romney's biggest problem is Romney

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Originally Posted by mstone 

This guy just can't say anything without sticking his foot in his mouth. I try to figure out why he is such a dufuss. I think he suffers from poor self esteem. Even though he is wealthy and successful he has no clear convictions except for waffling. He speaks with no confidence and when he tries to make small talk it always comes out wrong. Sure, Obama is not without a few social fopauxs such as when he continued to chat during the UK national anthem but there have been relatively few misspeaks like that especially compared to W Bush. I get the distinct impression that Romney could out misstep even Bush. The guy just does not have the right stuff. He is definitely uncomfortable in his own skin.

Oral Pedendectomy. It's the only answer.  ( wink if I could )

Even Ryan said Romney was "inarticulate" (over that topic).  If we just leave it as the word, Ryan thinks Romney is "inarticulate".

- - - - -

If Romney dropped out of the race, what would happen?

Romney's biggest problem is a press that will do whatever it takes to make him look bad.  Obama says a lot of seriously dumb things.  Biden says even more seriously dumb things.  The US press has always been dirty, but now it's so one-sided and irreverent, there's not even any point in reading it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splinemodel 

Romney's biggest problem is a press that will do whatever it takes to make him look bad.  Obama says a lot of seriously dumb things.  Biden says even more seriously dumb things.  The US press has always been dirty, but now it's so one-sided and irreverent, there's not even any point in reading it.

Even Bill Kristol (BILL KRISTOL FFS) thinks Romney was "arrogant and stupid" in his quotes.

Some of the people on this board will give the guy a pass for anything. Anything.

It's not the press.

If you're out of step with even Bill Kristol, it means you're looking round the room, not seeing the patsy, and not realising what that means.

Everyone is human and makes mistakes . Romney will still win this election with the economy in the toilet,
 

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Originally Posted by marvfox 

Everyone is human and makes mistakes . Romney will still win this election with the economy in the toilet,
 

We'll see. Personally if he keeps opening his mouth he'll hand the election to Obama ( if he hasn't already ).

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Originally Posted by Harald II 

 

Even Bill Kristol (BILL KRISTOL FFS) thinks Romney was "arrogant and stupid" in his quotes.

 

Some of the people on this board will give the guy a pass for anything. Anything.

 

It's not the press.

 

If you're out of step with even Bill Kristol, it means you're looking round the room, not seeing the patsy, and not realising what that means.

A pass...for what?  What he said was accurate.  47% of people don't pay taxes.  People that don't pay taxes are not interested in tax cuts.  You can't possibly believe that Romney meant that all of those people are moochers.  

Romney is right they are parasites who soak off the government. Most of them are to dam lazy to work and go on assistance because it is easier for them to get it.I see it myself everyday.Obama is a advocate for the moochers in this country!.
 

In all countries, right wing party voters always love telling that half of the population is lazy without ever giving any real statistic. 

It's ignorant and insulting.

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Originally Posted by ClemyNX 

In all countries, right wing party voters always love telling that half of the population is lazy without ever giving any real statistic. 

It's ignorant and insulting.

Really? In all countries? All "right wing party voters always" like every single conversation? With no "real statistic"s?

Do you have data to back up that claim?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstone 

This guy just can't say anything without sticking his foot in his mouth. I try to figure out why he is such a dufuss. I think he suffers from poor self esteem. Even though he is wealthy and successful he has no clear convictions except for waffling. He speaks with no confidence and when he tries to make small talk it always comes out wrong. Sure, Obama is not without a few social fopauxs such as when he continued to chat during the UK national anthem but there have been relatively few misspeaks like that especially compared to W Bush. I get the distinct impression that Romney could out misstep even Bush. The guy just does not have the right stuff. He is definitely uncomfortable in his own skin.

Mitt Romney had a chance to win until he opened his mouth. 

BTW, it's faux pas....

Looks like Ryan's an issue too, though Romney was incompetent enough to pick him-

"According the Quinnipiac, Obama has seen a 17-point improvement among Florida voters 65-and-over since August, but only a 5-point improvement among those 50-64, and no change in his lead among those 18-49. His margin in Florida specifically on Medicare improved by 9 points among those 65-and-over, versus 7 points for the other two groups. (I'd argue that the reason seniors swung much more toward Obama on the first question than the second is that they're more likely to base their vote on Medicare. Or, put differently, no one likes the Ryan Medicare plan, but seniors are much more likely to vote according to that dislike.) 

In Ohio, Obama has seen a 9-point improvement overall among voters 65-and-over, versus 6 points among those 50-64, and no change among those 18-49. On the Medicare question, he saw a 12-point improvement among seniors, versus 7 points among those 50-64 and 5 points among those 18-49."

~ http://www.tnr.com/blog/107829/47-was-bad-romney-ryan-has-been-deadly#

George W Bush was a complete idiot! That is why he is hiding today when this election is starting to pop up with his name.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harald II 


Uh — yeah I can.
Being as how that was what he, y'know, said.
You can (and you are) choosing to twist the words to get a more positive meaning because you can never, ever, ever postulate your boy could do any wrong, ever, but that's between you and your cognitive dissonance.

No, I'm asking you to apply the same standard to Obama.  If you did, you'd be calling him the biggest gaffer in politics.  Pardon me, second biggest.  

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Originally Posted by Harald II 

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

No, I'm asking you to apply the same standard to Obama.  If you did, you'd be calling him the biggest gaffer in politics.  Pardon me, second biggest.  

Um. Horseshit.

You postulated I "Couldn't possibly believe" Romney thought that 47% were "moochers."

So, i replied to that. I said that was exactly what he said. I didn't say anything about gaffes, and nor did you.

While I'm on the subject, apparently (you say above) Romney's comments were "accurate."

If they are accurate (the words he used), may I ask why you think disabled veterans and retired people "believe that they are victims ... believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, ... believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it"?

That's accurate, yes?

This argument could go on for years - but I find it hard to believe that there is anyone left who really thinks that this was anything other than a poorly worded statement from Romney. He undoubtedly believes that there is a 47% segment that would never vote for him, and he is probably about right - it's just not the 47% segment that he was referring to. He further erred when he appeared to confuse the 47% who pay no taxes with yet another 47% who are on welfare of some kind, and then again when he characterized those on welfare with the moocher tag - I'm sure he did not intend to include veterans and other such groups in that demographic.

If he had just admitted that he misspoke - no big deal - this whole issue would have gone away much faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harald II 


Um. Horseshit.
You postulated I "Couldn't possibly believe" Romney thought that 47% were "moochers."

Yes.  

I'm asking you if you believe Mitt Romney actually thinks the entire 47% are "moochers."   

Yes, they were accurate.  47-49% do not pay income taxes and are less likely to be concerned about tax relief as a result.  That was what I meant by "accurate."  

I don't think veterans and retired people believe they are victims.  And I don't think Mitt Romney believes so, either.  You apparently disagree.  But you know, the thing is I'm not sure you actually do think that.  I think you're just being intellectually dishonest in order to score political points.  

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Originally Posted by muppetry 

 

This argument could go on for years - but I find it hard to believe that there is anyone left who really thinks that this was anything other than a poorly worded statement from Romney. He undoubtedly believes that there is a 47% segment that would never vote for him, and he is probably about right - it's just not the 47% segment that he was referring to. He further erred when he appeared to confuse the 47% who pay no taxes with yet another 47% who are on welfare of some kind, and then again when he characterized those on welfare with the moocher tag - I'm sure he did not intend to include veterans and other such groups in that demographic.

 

If he had just admitted that he misspoke - no big deal - this whole issue would have gone away much faster.

I agree and again appreciate your honest assessment.  

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Originally Posted by BRussell 

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Originally Posted by muppetry 


If he had just admitted that he misspoke - no big deal - this whole issue would have gone away much faster.

He can't say he misspoke, because this isn't some mistaken wording or gaffe. The idea he conveyed - not just the narrow language, but also the basic principle - is a core conservative belief today, as wrong and as stupid as it is.

I'm not sure that's true - it would be spectacularly foolish to write off so many of their own supporters. I really can't figure out quite what Romney was thinking, except that in the context he found himself in - a fundraiser full of rich businessmen - he thought that making some kind of disparaging comment about the other end of the demographic spectrum would help to convince them that he is on their side. But then he tried to be a bit too clever with the labeling.

After the tea party parroted their "We are the 53% meme" for the better part of a year, and after Romney & crew harped on and on and on about broadening the base because of those who don't pay federal income taxes, it is very unlikely that Romney misspoke.  Whether he believes what he said is a completely separate issue--he has a track record of tailoring his message to his audience, even if in doing so he completely contradicts something he said the day before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRussell 

muppetry - if you don't believe that conservatives think this just listen to conservatives.

http://www.redstate.com/2012/09/18/conservatives-agree-romneys-right/

It is the most core conservative belief there is that ~half the country are lazy mooches who are taking my money. Sure the victims pay tons of state and local and sales and payroll taxes and yeah lots of them are retired and yeah the EITC is a Republican thing and yeah many of them are conservatives etc. etc. But none of that matters. It's a core conviction. Look anywhere from the threads here to the Erickson piece above, and you'll see conservatives defending it.


BR - well said.

Well that is certainly quite special. If I understand him correctly he is saying that Romney is correct to call them all moochers, but it won't hurt him because they are mostly too stupid to realize that he is talking about them. I'm even more surprised that he doesn't think it is potentially damaging to make that argument.

On the other hand, I also see a lot of commentators, especially on the far right, making the most ludicrous arguments while claiming that they have widespread support, so I can't help but wonder if this might be another case of that, rather than mainstream Republican thinking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

 

This argument could go on for years - but I find it hard to believe that there is anyone left who really thinks that this was anything other than a poorly worded statement from Romney. He undoubtedly believes that there is a 47% segment that would never vote for him, and he is probably about right - it's just not the 47% segment that he was referring to. He further erred when he appeared to confuse the 47% who pay no taxes with yet another 47% who are on welfare of some kind, and then again when he characterized those on welfare with the moocher tag - I'm sure he did not intend to include veterans and other such groups in that demographic.

 

If he had just admitted that he misspoke - no big deal - this whole issue would have gone away much faster.

That's the thing... he doubled down on it and made it worse, which is his standard pattern, and what leads people to believe that it is his inner core.

His body language and mannerism, also, in this case during the sudden news conference, reinforce this feeling.

Add to that the virtually synchronized response from many on the Right defending his statements and it leads to what BR says, it's not (just) Mittens, it's his party.

The truth shall prevail.
 

That's true, Muppetry.

I guess I just push it because it kinds of tickles me there are some on the board who will not, cannot, entertain the idea their boy could make a mistake. They've even been saying Romney was harried for telling the truth, rather than that he didn't mean it, or mis-spoke.

Kind of like how I go to winsupersite.com from time to time, just to see a True Believer in action.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRussell 

Romney's problem isn't Romney, it's his party. There's nothing wrong with Romney as an individual. He's got a great image - good looking, well spoken, he's successful, he was a governor and a business man and has been in other forms of public service. He's a technocrat, he's not ideological. He's the ideal candidate.
But you can't BOTH get the support of the party that has convinced itself that the conservative Obama is a socialist Muslim destroying the fabric of the country AND win the election. There's a reason all these polls are showing so few Republicans: Because the other 80% of the country looks at the modern conservative Republican and says WTF?

I disagree completely.  Romney is running against a President who (possibly brilliantly) refuses to campaign on his record and his plans for the future.  That President is aided by a mainstream media that is 100% in the tank for him and out destroy his opponent.  Romney is being portrayed as a gaffing, selfish, out-of-touch Thurston Howell-type.  It's not the party at all.  At the end of primaries, the party settled on someone who wasn't a Tea Party firebrand or member of the religious right.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRussell 

He can't say he misspoke, because this isn't some mistaken wording or gaffe. The idea he conveyed - not just the narrow language, but also the basic principle - is a core conservative belief today, as wrong and as stupid as it is.

Again, you assume that Romney actually believes 47% of the American people are moochers, including retirees and those on veterans' benefits.  I don't believe that's true at all.  

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Originally Posted by Harald II 

That's true, Muppetry.

 

I guess I just push it because it kinds of tickles me there are some on the board who will not, cannot, entertain the idea their boy could make a mistake. They've even been saying Romney was harried for telling the truth, rather than that he didn't mean it, or mis-spoke.

 

Kind of like how I go to winsupersite.com from time to time, just to see a True Believer in action.

Assume you're referring to me, at least in part.  I happen to agree he made a mistake.  The mistake he made, as muppetry pointed out earlier, is that he combined (or confused) the 47% of people that pay no federal income taxes with those who will never support him because they are in permanent or semi-permanent state of being on the public dole.   Obviously there are many people in that 47% (49% actually) who don't pay federal income tax for very good reasons (those who live mostly on SS, those who have veterans' benefits, certain disability benefits, etc.).   I can't speak as to why he did that, but I do know that his comments were both off-the-cuff and not intended for public consumption.  This wasn't some planned speech...it was part of remarks made to a private fundraiser.  In the broader context, his point regarded the people he was trying to reach politically.   

But none of that matters, because you'd rather add to the narrative that Romney is a rich asshole.  

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Originally Posted by SDW2001 

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Originally Posted by Harald II 

That's true, Muppetry.

 

I guess I just push it because it kinds of tickles me there are some on the board who will not, cannot, entertain the idea their boy could make a mistake. They've even been saying Romney was harried for telling the truth, rather than that he didn't mean it, or mis-spoke.

 

Kind of like how I go to winsupersite.com from time to time, just to see a True Believer in action.

 

Assume you're referring to me, at least in part.  I happen to agree he made a mistake.  The mistake he made, as muppetry pointed out earlier, is that he combined (or confused) the 47% of people that pay no federal income taxes with those who will never support him because they are in permanent or semi-permanent state of being on the public dole.   Obviously there are many people in that 47% (49% actually) who don't pay federal income tax for very good reasons (those who live mostly on SS, those who have veterans' benefits, certain disability benefits, etc.).   I can't speak as to why he did that, but I do know that his comments were both off-the-cuff and not intended for public consumption.  This wasn't some planned speech...it was part of remarks made to a private fundraiser.  In the broader context, his point regarded the people he was trying to reach politically.   

Yes - that was pretty much my take on it. And I think this whole fuss is finally dying down and most people are recognizing it as such. Provided that some of the less judicious right-wing commentators don't keep stoking the fire, I suspect this will not cost Romney much in votes - Trumptman will probably be right about that in the end, my analysis in the other thread notwithstanding.

Not intended for public consumption.  How is that a mitigating factor?  If anything, that makes his comment worse.  Of course, this spin is coming from SDW--the same SDW who had no problem with John Kyl's "not intended to be a factual statement" Planned Parenthood lie.