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Apple to seek $3 billion in damages from Samsung - report

post #1 of 119
Thread Starter 
Though a jury suggested Samsung pay Apple just over $1 billion for patent infringement, the iPhone maker plans to ask a judge for three times that amount, according to a new report.

Citing "multiple legal sources," The Korea Times reported on Wednesday that Apple's legal representatives plan to ask U.S. Federal Judge Lucy Koh for $3 billion in damages from Samsung. When a jury determined in August that Samsung had infringed on Apple's patents, it recommended damages be paid to the tune of $1.05 billion.

A "reliable source" quoted in Wednesday's story said Apple will request from Koh that Samsung pay more than $3 billion. A hearing between the two companies is scheduled for Sept. 21.

"The decision means Apple wants to quickly address the harm that Samsung's infringing products are said to be causing," the source reportedly said. "As has been the case throughout this trial, Apple is pressing its full advantage over the jurors' decision."

Hearing Order
Filing deadlines in the ongoing dispute between Apple and Samsung.


If Apple does in fact choose to ask for $3 billion in damages, it would be the largest ever payment sought in a technology patent dispute.

While Apple is apparently set to seek a record amount of money, Samsung is hoping it will be able to convince the judge to toss out the jury's ruling. The company has also vowed to appeal in court.
post #2 of 119

it's a bad time to be an apple hater.

post #3 of 119
That is 30% of Samsung's total cash. It's gonna be a world of hurt

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post #4 of 119

Feels like Apple trying to set the stage for an industry wide antitrust lawsuit.  Playing with fire, IMHO

post #5 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo42 View Post

Feels like Apple trying to set the stage for an industry wide antitrust lawsuit.  Playing with fire, IMHO

Really? What antitrust issues are you imagining?

Apple doesn't have a monopoly, but even if they did, enforcing your patents does not set you up for an antitrust suit (other than very rare circumstances that don't apply here).
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post #6 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Though a jury suggested Samsung pay Apple just over $1 billion for patent infringement, the iPhone maker plans to ask a judge for three times that amount, according to a new report.
Citing "multiple legal sources," The Korea Times reported on Wednesday that Apple's legal representatives plan to ask U.S. Federal Judge Lucy Koh for $3 billion in damages from Samsung. When a jury determined in August that Samsung had infringed on Apple's patents, it recommended damages be paid to the tune of $1.05 billion.

Well, duh.

The jury found that Samsung willfully infringed on Apple's patents - and the testimony was quite clear in that respect. Since their actions were clearly willful, Apple would be foolish to not ask for treble damages.

In fact, I suspect that they're asking for even more. For example, I fully expect Apple to ask for a Rule 50 determination on the Tab (if they haven't already done so). If successful, that would add the Tab to the infringing items list and would increase the amount of damages.
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post #7 of 119
Just keep running with the torch. Let them all eat your dust.
post #8 of 119
Go Apple. Get all you can out of those thieves.
post #9 of 119
Apple obviously wants to get iPhone 5 in the hands of the Mars Rover so it can call home.
post #10 of 119
Samsung needs to hire better lawyers, they got lots of bad advise and continue to bleed over this.

In reality, Samsung has far more to loose than just this case, as it was pointed out, Samsung success over the yrs was base on their ability to be vertically integrated and coping the most compelling design and cranking them out fast than any competitor. If they flat our loose this case with Apple it will open the door for other companies to come at them base on what the Apple case laid out about Samsung design practice (or the lack there of).
post #11 of 119
Sounds like "thermonuclear" to me ;-)

Eph

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Eph

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post #12 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak View Post

That is 30% of Samsung's total cash. It's gonna be a world of hurt

That's kind of the idea. Samsung was attempting to make their cash off infringement amd lied about not looking at the iphone during their design process etc, the punishment needs to hurt so they don't do it or even consider it again.

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post #13 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo42 View Post

Feels like Apple trying to set the stage for an industry wide antitrust lawsuit.  Playing with fire, IMHO

Based on? Enforcing IP rights over patents they are not required to license as they are not SEP? That's not antitrust.

Contrary to Googles 'de facto standard' nonsense, Apple's inventions are not standards in a legal sense, in contrast to the patents Samsung sued them over. Those were not only SEP but had been exhausted by the chip makers licensing in order to make the chips. Samsung's games could perhaps fall into antitrust realms, but nothing about Apple's moves does. Not even requesting that Koh consider trebling the damages

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post #14 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo42 View Post

Feels like Apple trying to set the stage for an industry wide antitrust lawsuit.  Playing with fire, IMHO


Apple doesn't have a monopoly. (Remember: Android is "winning".) The patents in question aren't SEP.

post #15 of 119
Seriously, Samsung just doesn't seem to get it, and they're still at it. Imagine if they had put their resources into actually developing their product instead of blatantly copying Apple. When Apple introduced the iPhone Steve Jobs stood right there on stage and said as plain as day that they'd defend their product.

Now, not only does Samsung face potentially paying out 3 Billion, but they are losing Apple's business too. And the worst part of it for Sammy is that, although Apple won this huge case and is getting a ridiculous amount of money from it, Samsung has created a self-image of being a school yard bully picking on the smart kid everyone likes because he's jealous, and is getting just what he deserves. It'll be interesting what Koh decides on this, I'm sure she'll at the very least old Samsung to the 1.05 billion. She might also grant Apple's request, or at least part of it (if possible) as a consequence for Samsung's media release of documents no allowed during the trial.
post #16 of 119

Apple should take that money -- if it's granted -- and create/fund something like Bell Labs with it.

post #17 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaioslider View Post

I'm sure she'll at the very least old Samsung to the 1.05 billion. She might also grant Apple's request, or at least part of it (if possible) as a consequence for Samsung's media release of documents no allowed during the trial.

That's one of the interesting things about the way the jury questionnaire was set up. Koh now has an almost unlimited ability to determine damages. She can issue a Rule 50 order adding the Tab. She can order treble damages or not on a product-by-product basis if she wishes. She can drop damages on specific products. Final damages could range from $0 (if Samsung wins the appeal) to close to $4 M (if Apple wins all of its arguments).
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post #18 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Apple should take that money -- if it's granted -- and create/fund something like Bell Labs with it.

Why would they do that? They already have the equivalent of Bell Labs working for them.
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post #19 of 119
My sense is this amount would include the punitive damages for intentional infringement which the jury concluded, not actual damages. The jury explicitly determined that Apple's initial damages request was not supported by the evidence during trial, and the court is therefore unlikely to disagree on this point by increasing the amount of actual damages.
post #20 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fithian View Post

Sounds like "thermonuclear" to me ;-)

 

This strategy, at this pace, is more or less what Jobs had planned. Cook is making good on Jobs' vision, whether it's to do with patents or other things. 

post #21 of 119

Wise of Apple to source other suppliers before Samsung files for bankruptcy.

post #22 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

My sense is this amount would include the punitive damages for intentional infringement which the jury concluded, not actual damages. The jury explicitly determined that Apple's initial damages request was not supported by the evidence during trial, and the court is therefore unlikely to disagree on this point by increasing the amount of actual damages.

You don't have any idea what you're talking about. There are no punitive damages in a case like this.

The reason the jury did not award Apple's request had nothing to do with degree of guilt. They basically agreed with Apple on most of the infringement (with the bizarre exception of the Tab). The difference was that they accepted Samsung's expert's opinion on the damages per device. I believe that this was erroneous and due to a lack of understanding of economics. While it is true that Samsung's NET margin was only 20% (or whatever it was), Apple wanted to use the GROSS margin - which is much higher. Apple's argument is actually stronger because of the principle of contribution margin. Contribution margin is much closer to the gross figure than the net figure. By using the net figure, even taking away 100% of Samsung's profits from infringing devices leaves Samsung materially better off than they would have been if they hadn't infringed.

Triple damages can be awarded when the jury finds the infringement to be willful - as they did in this case.
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post #23 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak View Post

That is 30% of Samsung's total cash. It's gonna be a world of hurt


I thought Samsung Electronics is sitting on a $25+B cash pile.

post #24 of 119

No, they should create some sort of educational endowment or scholarship fund. Show that it wasn't just about the money. Would help their image. Maybe kick in 3 Bil of their own cash too. 

 

Heck start teaching Object C in grade schools. :-)

post #25 of 119
Apple just doesn't like competition...especially when it's a chance the competition can beat you. I don't see Coca Cola suing Pepsi...smh. This is horrible. Hopefully HTC Will get that injunction on iphone. What they're trying to do is demolish Samsung.Because Samsung is the leading manufacturer for Android. It's strange because when the first iphone came out and the first Android device, all these patents and stuff didn't matter. The reason, well because the iphone was the best device around, hands down. But now that Android than developed more and continues to mature and devices are coming out more powerful than ever and doing things the iphone doesn't, now Apple wants to go sue crazy.

And now look Apple has stolen some of the features from android...pulldown notification bar, reject call with text, fly in feature and many more. And I'll say this again, When talking about features, Apple give it's customers little by little...just enough to keep them interested. Then when the next iphone comes out they'll give a little more.It's like they string people along and people bite. Case in point, a bigger screen. How long have people been wanting this? Now 2 years later, it's implemented. NFC...people have been asking for this. Why isn't it included in the iP5? Well because it's gonna be Apple's main feature of the next iphone that comes out, so people will buy it.
post #26 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirarre View Post

Apple just doesn't like competition...especially when it's a chance the competition can beat you. I don't see Coca Cola suing Pepsi...smh. This is horrible. Hopefully HTC Will get that injunction on iphone. What they're trying to do is demolish Samsung.Because Samsung is the leading manufacturer for Android. It's strange because when the first iphone came out and the first Android device, all these patents and stuff didn't matter. The reason, well because the iphone was the best device around, hands down. But now that Android than developed more and continues to mature and devices are coming out more powerful than ever and doing things the iphone doesn't, now Apple wants to go sue crazy.
And now look Apple has stolen some of the features from android...pulldown notification bar, reject call with text, fly in feature and many more. And I'll say this again, When talking about features, Apple give it's customers little by little...just enough to keep them interested. Then when the next iphone comes out they'll give a little more.It's like they string people along and people bite. Case in point, a bigger screen. How long have people been wanting this? Now 2 years later, it's implemented. NFC...people have been asking for this. Why isn't it included in the iP5? Well because it's gonna be Apple's main feature of the next iphone that comes out, so people will buy it.

Friendly advice. Go back to your Fandroid site where someone will actually think you have a genuine point, here ... not so much.
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post #27 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

You don't have any idea what you're talking about. There are no punitive damages in a case like this.
The reason the jury did not award Apple's request had nothing to do with degree of guilt. They basically agreed with Apple on most of the infringement (with the bizarre exception of the Tab). The difference was that they accepted Samsung's expert's opinion on the damages per device. I believe that this was erroneous and due to a lack of understanding of economics. While it is true that Samsung's NET margin was only 20% (or whatever it was), Apple wanted to use the GROSS margin - which is much higher. Apple's argument is actually stronger because of the principle of contribution margin. Contribution margin is much closer to the gross figure than the net figure. By using the net figure, even taking away 100% of Samsung's profits from infringing devices leaves Samsung materially better off than they would have been if they hadn't infringed.
Triple damages can be awarded when the jury finds the infringement to be willful - as they did in this case.

Seems logical to me.
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post #28 of 119

Almost all the patents "infringed" by Samsung are nonsense, that patents never had to be allowed in the first place.

Has Apple patented the white color already??

 

Reclaiming that amount is nonsense either, as they claim that all Samsung's phones sold are iPhone "lost" sales.

I have a Galaxy SII and I knew exactly what I was buying, didn't want to be in the Apple's "Everybody needs the same. I tell you what you can install and how to use it" cage.

 

Apple has also infringed many patents from others.

All this patent wars are nonsense.

 

Apple tries to win the phone battle in the courts, because they cannot win it on the market.

Apple is one company with only one phone model, against many companies with many phone models.

 

Apple has already lost the phone battle.

They should have licensed iOS some years ago.

 

I'm not anti-Apple (I own several computers and gadgets), and pro-nothing, but this is how I see it.

post #29 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirarre View Post

Apple just doesn't like competition...especially when it's a chance the competition can beat you. I don't see Coca Cola suing Pepsi...smh. This is horrible. Hopefully HTC Will get that injunction on iphone. What they're trying to do is demolish Samsung.Because Samsung is the leading manufacturer for Android. It's strange because when the first iphone came out and the first Android device, all these patents and stuff didn't matter. The reason, well because the iphone was the best device around, hands down. But now that Android than developed more and continues to mature and devices are coming out more powerful than ever and doing things the iphone doesn't, now Apple wants to go sue crazy.
And now look Apple has stolen some of the features from android...pulldown notification bar, reject call with text, fly in feature and many more. And I'll say this again, When talking about features, Apple give it's customers little by little...just enough to keep them interested. Then when the next iphone comes out they'll give a little more.It's like they string people along and people bite. Case in point, a bigger screen. How long have people been wanting this? Now 2 years later, it's implemented. NFC...people have been asking for this. Why isn't it included in the iP5? Well because it's gonna be Apple's main feature of the next iphone that comes out, so people will buy it.

I guess you live in a bubble. Coke and Pepsi sue each other all the time. Most recently, coke sued over bottle shape...

http://www.google.com/search?q=coke+sues+pepsi&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari
post #30 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

You don't have any idea what you're talking about. There are no punitive damages in a case like this.
The reason the jury did not award Apple's request had nothing to do with degree of guilt. They basically agreed with Apple on most of the infringement (with the bizarre exception of the Tab). The difference was that they accepted Samsung's expert's opinion on the damages per device. I believe that this was erroneous and due to a lack of understanding of economics. While it is true that Samsung's NET margin was only 20% (or whatever it was), Apple wanted to use the GROSS margin - which is much higher. Apple's argument is actually stronger because of the principle of contribution margin. Contribution margin is much closer to the gross figure than the net figure. By using the net figure, even taking away 100% of Samsung's profits from infringing devices leaves Samsung materially better off than they would have been if they hadn't infringed.
Triple damages can be awarded when the jury finds the infringement to be willful - as they did in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wovel View Post

I guess you live in a bubble. Coke and Pepsi sue each other all the time. Most recently, coke sued over bottle shape...
http://www.google.com/search?q=coke+sues+pepsi&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

Haha good catch. I bet that bottle had rounded edges!
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post #31 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirarre View Post

Apple just doesn't like competition...especially when it's a chance the competition can beat you. I don't see Coca Cola suing Pepsi...smh. This is horrible. Hopefully HTC Will get that injunction on iphone. What they're trying to do is demolish Samsung.Because Samsung is the leading manufacturer for Android. It's strange because when the first iphone came out and the first Android device, all these patents and stuff didn't matter. The reason, well because the iphone was the best device around, hands down. But now that Android than developed more and continues to mature and devices are coming out more powerful than ever and doing things the iphone doesn't, now Apple wants to go sue crazy.
And now look Apple has stolen some of the features from android...pulldown notification bar, reject call with text, fly in feature and many more. And I'll say this again, When talking about features, Apple give it's customers little by little...just enough to keep them interested. Then when the next iphone comes out they'll give a little more.It's like they string people along and people bite. Case in point, a bigger screen. How long have people been wanting this? Now 2 years later, it's implemented. NFC...people have been asking for this. Why isn't it included in the iP5? Well because it's gonna be Apple's main feature of the next iphone that comes out, so people will buy it.


Coke did sue Pepsi when the latter tried to infringe on their curvy bottle trade dress. You can't patent a recipe.

 

Of course the patents didn't matter when Android first came out, they weren't stolen yet (nor were many patents granted too). If you remember, these were added in later releases on Android.

 

NFC? Really? I haven't asked for it. My family and friends haven't asked for it. If you ask the average consumer, they probably never heard of NFC. It isn't widely used in retail currently so there is no point to include it. I, for one, will never use it if is included in my next phone.

post #32 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by criscoso View Post

Almost all the patents "infringed" by Samsung are nonsense, that patents never had to be allowed in the first place.
Has Apple patented the white color already??

Reclaiming that amount is nonsense either, as they claim that all Samsung's phones sold are iPhone "lost" sales.
I have a Galaxy SII and I knew exactly what I was buying, didn't want to be in the Apple's "Everybody needs the same. I tell you what you can install and how to use it" cage.

Apple has also infringed many patents from others.
All this patent wars are nonsense.

Apple tries to win the phone battle in the courts, because they cannot win it on the market.
Apple is one company with only one phone model, against many companies with many phone models.

Apple has already lost the phone battle.
They should have licensed iOS some years ago.

I'm not anti-Apple (I own several computers and gadgets), and pro-nothing, but this is how I see it.

Strange logic you employ. Had Google and Scamsung not ripped off Apple you wouldn't have had the Samsung phone to 'know you wanted' ... LOL
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post #33 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by criscoso View Post

Almost all the patents "infringed" by Samsung are nonsense, that patents never had to be allowed in the first place.

Has Apple patented the white color already??

 

Reclaiming that amount is nonsense either, as they claim that all Samsung's phones sold are iPhone "lost" sales.

I have a Galaxy SII and I knew exactly what I was buying, didn't want to be in the Apple's "Everybody needs the same. I tell you what you can install and how to use it" cage.

 

Apple has also infringed many patents from others.

All this patent wars are nonsense.

 

Apple tries to win the phone battle in the courts, because they cannot win it on the market.

Apple is one company with only one phone model, against many companies with many phone models.

 

Apple has already lost the phone battle.

They should have licensed iOS some years ago.

 

I'm not anti-Apple (I own several computers and gadgets), and pro-nothing, but this is how I see it.

there's nothing wrong in being ignorant and having a sub-80 IQ.

 

apple makes 4x more money than sammy on phones and nobody else makes money. are they really loosing?

same thing with computers..

post #34 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by criscoso View Post

Almost all the patents "infringed" by Samsung are nonsense, that patents never had to be allowed in the first place.

Has Apple patented the white color already??

 

Reclaiming that amount is nonsense either, as they claim that all Samsung's phones sold are iPhone "lost" sales.

I have a Galaxy SII and I knew exactly what I was buying, didn't want to be in the Apple's "Everybody needs the same. I tell you what you can install and how to use it" cage.

 

Apple has also infringed many patents from others.

All this patent wars are nonsense.

 

Apple tries to win the phone battle in the courts, because they cannot win it on the market.

Apple is one company with only one phone model, against many companies with many phone models.

 

Apple has already lost the phone battle.

They should have licensed iOS some years ago.

Seeing that Apple makes the lion's share of the profits, I don't see how it is losing. Apple doesn't play the market share game. It has the #1 phone in the world and compete favorable with Sammy with only 3 models (against Sammy's plethora of crappy models in addition to its flagship ones). Each new iphone is better than the last and will sell a lot more than the last.

post #35 of 119

If you are stating that all iPhone and iOS is Apple original, you are wrong. Inform yourself first.

This is like saying MacOS is Apple original and not inspired by Xerox. LOL

post #36 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by criscoso View Post

If you are stating that all iPhone and iOS is Apple original, you are wrong. Inform yourself first.
This is like saying MacOS is Apple original and not inspired by Xerox. LOL

You need to brush up on your history there fella. /smile
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post #37 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak View Post

That is 30% of Samsung's total cash. It's gonna be a world of hurt

I couldn't find that 30%, but Wiki tells me:
Revenue US$ 247.5 billion (2011)
Net income US$ 18.3 billion (2011)
Total assets US$ 384.3 billion (2011)
Total equity US$ 224.7 billion (2011)

Of course; that's Samsung. Not just Samsung Electronics, to which you might were referring to.
post #38 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins View Post

there's nothing wrong in being ignorant and having a sub-80 IQ.

 

apple makes 4x more money than sammy on phones and nobody else makes money. are they really loosing?

same thing with computers..


I'm not ignorant, and to inform you my IQ is 148.

But it's clear that you are a fanboy, I'm fan-nothing. LOL

post #39 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

Seeing that Apple makes the lion's share of the profits, I don't see how it is losing. Apple doesn't play the market share game. It has the #1 phone in the world and compete favorable with Sammy with only 3 models (against Sammy's plethora of crappy models in addition to its flagship ones). Each new iphone is better than the last and will sell a lot more than the last.


Well, history will tell.

Big COs have their time, and then fall.

Ask IBM or Microsoft.

post #40 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wovel View Post


I guess you live in a bubble. Coke and Pepsi sue each other all the time. Most recently, coke sued over bottle shape...
http://www.google.com/search?q=coke+sues+pepsi&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari


Ha Ha...fandroid site huh. It's cool...no need to get all upset. Just think about it, later today when Apple releases it's IOS 6 update...you'll finally get to play with some more features that Android users have been playing with for some time now.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


Coke did sue Pepsi when the latter tried to infringe on their curvy bottle trade dress. You can't patent a recipe.

 

Of course the patents didn't matter when Android first came out, they weren't stolen yet (nor were many patents granted too). If you remember, these were added in later releases on Android.

 

NFC? Really? I haven't asked for it. My family and friends haven't asked for it. If you ask the average consumer, they probably never heard of NFC. It isn't widely used in retail currently so there is no point to include it. I, for one, will never use it if is included in my next phone.

 

I understand what you mean about NFC. To tell you the truth, I thought the same thing when I got my GNexus. I thought that I wouldn't use it. But then more merchants started incorporating it like GAP, Mcdonalds and other stores that I shop at. Not only that, they offered discounts when you used NFC. I also found myself using NFC Tags..so there is use for NFC.

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