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Apple's new Maps in iOS 6 draw ire from users around the world - Page 12

post #441 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

Good thing Google Maps are perfect! Oh, wait!








Ha ha, you are using 5-year old screenshots of Google Maps (back when it was in Beta) to prove your point. Google Maps doesn't even look anything like that anymore

 

E.g.

 

 

Do you think Apple Maps should be measured against the standard of a 2007 beta product? I am used to Apple being best-in-class and pushing the envelope with innovation, not coming out with half-baked failures and then complaining that the other companies got a head start

post #442 of 472
Originally Posted by Grouty2 View Post

I wonder at the number of people confidently predicting that things will get better quickly in Apple's Maps app because of crowd sourced data. The problem as I see it is that for many people the maps in their current state are borderline useless. If they don't use them because they are so poor then where is the crowd sourced data going to come from? Apple needs to throw some serious resources at this. If Google releases a Maps app for iOS then they will be back in the driving seat as their will be a huge migration back to them. This, of course, gives them all the data they lost from iOS6 customers being switched away.

 

I don't think it will get better because of the data.

 

I think it will get better because *the data is already very good*.

 

The problem is that Apple is reading and displaying that data incorrectly.

 

Here is a simple test: look up "bancroft ontario" in Maps and on the OpenStreetMaps web page. Note that Maps is off by miles, while OSM is perfect. That implies that Apple is simply reading the wrong data, or displaying it incorrectly.

 

 

I've been testing this a *lot* over the last two days, and in every case I threw at it, OSM not only got the location within a few tens of meters, but it outperformed Google by a little, and Bing by a whole lot. Apple just seems to be sorting its databases incorrectly, and not shuffling OSM and Geoplaces to the top, as they should. But that should be an easy fix.

 

That doesn't fix FlyOver rendering problems, or the fugly maps layout that makes parks the most important thing on the screen, but I honestly don't care about that. It does mean that Maps will be able to get you from Ajax to Bancroft properly, and that's all that really matters.

post #443 of 472
Originally Posted by Maury Markowitz View Post

The problem is that Apple is reading and displaying that data incorrectly.

 

Here is a simple test: look up "bancroft ontario" in Maps and on the OpenStreetMaps web page. Note that Maps is off by miles, while OSM is perfect. That implies that Apple is simply reading the wrong data, or displaying it incorrectly.

 

So is Apple using OpenStreetMaps, or are they using OpenMaps? I've read both.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #444 of 472
This reads like reasonable and constructive criticism of this situation by someone who knows what they are talking about.

http://blog.telemapics.com/?p=399
post #445 of 472
Originally Posted by KiltedGreen View Post
This reads like reasonable and constructive criticism of this situation by someone who knows what they are talking about.
http://blog.telemapics.com/?p=399

 

The title isn't very promising, if we're looking to the promise of rationality and lack of hyperbole…

 

Looks like he knows about the industry, but he's still an outsider's perspective. He can't know what he professes to know about what Apple did, did not, is, is not, will, and will not do.


If you go back over this blog and follow my recounting of the history of Google’s attempts at developing a quality mapping service, you will notice that they initially tried to automate the entire process and failed miserably, as has Apple. Google learned that you cannot take the human out of the equation. While the mathematics of mapping appear relatively straight forward, I can assure you that if you take the informed human observer who possesses local and cartographic knowledge out of the equation that you will produce exactly what Apple has produced – A failed system.

 

And this seems to ignore exactly what Apple has said: needs to be in the hands of users to improve, which is exactly what they've done.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #446 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

The title isn't very promising, if we're looking to the promise of rationality and lack of hyperbole…

I linked to the page so that people could read the article and the comments, not just the title. Try it. I suspect that he probably knows more about mapping than all posters on this forum combined. Maybe.
post #447 of 472
I completely agree maps isn't ready to be released. I wonder if this :

"But now we’ve heard Google’s new plan is to make these products self-sufficient. It’s begun charging high-volume users of its Maps APIs. Companies like Foursquare and Apple are balking at the price hike and looking to strategically reduce reliance on Google, so they’re switching to OpenStreetMap."

Had something to do with it being put in iOS 6 rather than a later version ? Ther are reports of apple wanting to keep the location data, which is why they snubbed google and released an unfinished maps app , but something about that doesn't really gel for me. Apple would always be able to get that information a year later , what would be the downside for them ? 90% of their profit is hardware related not ads.
I find it more credible they wanted to release it later , but were forced , they are all about controlling the experience - it doesn't fit with their MO.
post #448 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

So is Apple using OpenStreetMaps, or are they using OpenMaps? I've read both.

•  http://blog.osmfoundation.org/2012/03/08/welcome-apple/

Quote:
Originally Posted by t2af View Post

I completely agree maps isn't ready to be released. I wonder if this :
"But now we’ve heard Google’s new plan is to make these products self-sufficient. It’s begun charging high-volume users of its Maps APIs. Companies like Foursquare and Apple are balking at the price hike and looking to strategically reduce reliance on Google, so they’re switching to OpenStreetMap."
Had something to do with it being put in iOS 6 rather than a later version ? Ther are reports of apple wanting to keep the location data, which is why they snubbed google and released an unfinished maps app , but something about that doesn't really gel for me. Apple would always be able to get that information a year later , what would be the downside for them ? 90% of their profit is hardware related not ads.
I find it more credible they wanted to release it later , but were forced , they are all about controlling the experience - it doesn't fit with their MO.

That's a possibility. They did change iPhoto over to Open Street Maps back in March of this year which always struck me as an odd choice. I guess it does a little bit more photogenic than Google's offering but only do it in March of this year and why when you had your own mapping software in the works. It just seems odd to have just the gun here.

On another note, I sure hope Apple offers a web-based version of their Maps app that can be seen on Macs/PCs or by others with a different device. Currently, you can send your location to someone from an iDevice and despite the link they get is addressed to maps.apple.com/... it will open in Google Maps. I can't imagine that this would be Apple's longterm plan, but like most things they do they start small and then build around it well. I guess we'll see in the coming months/years.

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post #449 of 472
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
•  http://blog.osmfoundation.org/2012/03/08/welcome-apple/

 

All right, then I don't understand at all why they haven't just used OSM' maps 1:1 with what's online.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #450 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

All right, then I don't understand at all why they haven't just used OSM' maps 1:1 with what's online.

I find a lot of what they are doing with maps to be a head scratcher.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #451 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I find a lot of what they are doing with maps to be a head scratcher.


No surprise there. You seem to be very myopic regarding Apple Maps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro View Post

You are still incorrect. Billions of people didn't use Google Street View prior to 2007. Billions of people today don't use Google Street View.

Any reasonable person would notice the emphasis on "good enough." I further noted that no one has provided any usage statistics for Google Street View especially within the iPhone Maps app except for the article by Matt McGee which I referenced. Apple Maps is, right now, today, "good enough." Millions of people have already upgraded to iOS 6 and millions more people are in line outside Apple Retail Stores and carrier stores to purchase the iPhone 5.


Here is what I said:

Maps based on Apple technology rather than Google technology does not need to be as good as Google based Maps. Maps simply needs to be "good enough" although the solution will far surpass that standard.

"Maps simply needs to be "good enough" although the solution will far surpass that standard." - MacBook Pro

If Apple simply added Siri integration and a few features from Waze to the current features most users would likely be highly satisfied.

Accoring to Jessica E. Vascellaro and Amir Errata of the Wall Street Journal, Maps is used by more than 90% of U.S. iPhone users (although no data source is provided) which virtually guarantees success for any new version of Maps with relatively comparable features to the current version
iOS 6 Maps currently provides:
* 2D Mercator-variant projection with (at higher zoom levels) and without 3D projection with approximately 20 zoom levels of the entire (readily-navigable globe)
* 2D aerial and satellite imagery of the entire globe (Space Oblique Mercator projection)
* 3D aerial and satellite imagery superimposed on a digital elevation model providing a 360-degree panoramic overhead oblique view including a low level "bird's eye view" (Space Oblique Mercator-variant projection)

Every projection misrepresents the surface of the Earth in some way. Since all projections can show one or more but not all of the following; the greater the number of projections the greater the ability of the user to discern their location (although larger numbers of projections become increasingly confusing at an exponential rate); true direction, true distance, true areas, true shape.

Dead reckoning is a wholly unreliable method given that the average global positioning system (GPS) user is not trained in the technique. For the purposes of modern living, satellite navigation is vastly superior and additionally methods to supplement the model only increase navigation accuracy. Furthermore, given the limitations of 360-degree panoramic "street level" views of the entire surface of the planet which is entirely impractical versus aerial and satellite photography the superiority of the later becomes manifest.

I further submit that Apple has intentionally decided to not include multimodal navigation (e.g. pedestrian and public transportation routes) to appease otherwise upset partners who previously provided a navigation service for Apple products that many users may determine is no longer necessary. Such reasoning could apply to street level views as well as other expected high-end features and functions.

A well integrated street view would be nice but I suggest that the best method for Apple to develop such a database is to rely upon users. If Apple were to implement the hidden panoramic mode in iPhone 4S and higher, users themselves could photograph points of interest and with the exif and GPS metadata submitted to Apple along with imagery where such is "missing."

I do not have an issue with the "missing" street level view. In my opinion, the combination of an bird's eye view (overhead oblique angular view) with the static images from Yelp compensates for the loss. The addition of 3D Flyover Mode makes the resulting application superior.

I suspect an enterprising developer could even provide, dare we say it, a street level view app. Although iOS 6 Maps doesn't need a street level view.

Apple has already hit 80% of the targets and provides new functionality as well. The current beta implementation of Maps does enough to convert most people to Maps happily. Frankly, given that Maps is the default mapping and navigation app and is integrated with Siri the ease-of-use will likely be the key feature that wins over most users.

The great thing about Yelp is that you can check a destination to make sure it's correct before you go there or get info without going there. It's a huge benefit.
"Apple Maps is arguably already superior to Google Maps for iOS despite the Beta designation." While the loss of Google Street View may impact some users, I have never seen Google Street View user base numbers or user satisfaction data.

I find it interesting that we can list a multitude of ways that Apple Maps in iOS 6 Beta 4 is superior to Google Maps in iOS 5 while Google Maps proponents continue to focus on their sole argument of superiority, a feature which 50% of a tech savvy subset of users (Twitter followers of a tech blogger) were unaware existed on the iPhone. To further clarify, technology pundit, Matt McGee, of Search Engine Land posted the report, Irony: You Need A Map To Find Google Street View On The iPhone. McGee states that, "I asked on Twitter, and got a 50/50 split on replies: half knew how to access Street View, and half didn’t know it was there." This is, presumably, a technology savvy group considering they are "following" a technology pundit yet half were unaware of Google Street View in iPhone Maps.

Edited by MacBook Pro - 9/22/12 at 3:37pm
post #452 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


•  http://blog.osmfoundation.org/2012/03/08/welcome-apple/
That's a possibility. They did change iPhoto over to Open Street Maps back in March of this year which always struck me as an odd choice. I guess it does a little bit more photogenic than Google's offering but only do it in March of this year and why when you had your own mapping software in the works. It just seems odd to have just the gun here.
On another note, I sure hope Apple offers a web-based version of their Maps app that can be seen on Macs/PCs or by others with a different device. Currently, you can send your location to someone from an iDevice and despite the link they get is addressed to maps.apple.com/... it will open in Google Maps. I can't imagine that this would be Apple's longterm plan, but like most things they do they start small and then build around it well. I guess we'll see in the coming months/years.

yes it is strange, i think it could have gone something like this. :

2009 - apple started looking outside google for their maps after google refused turn by turn for ios http://goo.gl/Y9hQG

2012 - google starts charging for it's map data http://goo.gl/fx0a5  ( charging anyone pulling over 25,000 page loads a day $4, $8, or $10 per additional 1,000 loads,)

2012 march -  apple jumps to Openstreetmaps because imaps are in such bad shape still, 

2012 september  - apple launches unfinished imaps to avoid at the price hike.  

 

i don't think they are that worried about losing the location data, as hardware revenue is 90% income. They are worried about privacy, and I wonder if google wanted all the location data for a new maps licence (to tie them over until imaps was ready), google wouldn't agree to a 1 year deal without location data ? or something like that in reference to the wsj article. 

 

i think they'll port maps over to a web based version once their maps are more together (ie a couple of years at least)

their panic in getting maps up and running could also point to the lack of new features in ios6 ?


Edited by t2af - 9/23/12 at 2:46am
post #453 of 472

Dear Ray Bart,

 

It wasn't me, you dope. Though it would have been, as you don't seem to understand the concept of rules.


Sincerely, 

Stop being a deranged psychopath. We already have four of those here.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #454 of 472
Ray did claim he was probably older than most of us, but didn't back it up with any sense of maturity.
post #455 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

 

Like this:

 

 

 

Isn't it obvious that Apple has hired the Langoliers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Langoliers to clean up unused data - and somehow they slipped through from the past to the present. lol.gif

post #456 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

Like this:




[image removed]

It's not fair to cherry pick results as an argument to say all results or bad or we could do the same with Google Maps and every other mapping software. If they will ever be perfect I doubt it will be in my lifetime.

That said, this image does concern me because of all the things I would have thought Apple would make sure was highly detailed for an initial September launch — and even well above Google's cartographic efforts — are college campuses.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #457 of 472

It's very obvious that Apple spent time and energy to work on the US dataset and neglected the rest of the World.

 

Here is a good example, down town San Francisco clearly has building outlines and business information. The second image is Central in Hong Kong via Apples Maps showing one of the most dense areas of the city littered with bars, cafe's, businesses yet it shows absolutely nothing on the new maps app (Google Map shown for comparison). This is depressing. Apple needs to realise that maps are just as important for people in the rest of the world. Maybe the Apple executives need to travel more outside the US to gain a bigger picture of how dire the situation is.

 

 

 


Edited by simtub - 9/23/12 at 11:01am
post #458 of 472
Originally Posted by simtub View Post
Here is a good example, down town San Francisco clearly has building outlines and business information. The second image is Central in Hong Kong, one of the most dense areas of the city littered with bars, cafe's, businesses yet it shows absolutely nothing on the new maps app. This is depressing. Apple needs to realise that maps are just as important for people in the rest of the world. Maybe the Apple executives need to travel more outside the US.

 

Your implication that this isn't the case is really shortsighted. You'll notice that Google did the same when they launched their maps. I'm sure that a Hong Kong-based mapping company would focus on, you know, Hong Kong first.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #459 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by simtub View Post

It's very obvious that Apple spent time and energy to work on the US dataset and neglected the rest of the World.



 



Here is a good example, down town San Francisco clearly has building outlines and business information. The second image is Central in Hong Kong, one of the most dense areas of the city littered with bars, cafe's, businesses yet it shows absolutely nothing on the new maps app. This is depressing. Apple needs to realise that maps are just as important for people in the rest of the world. Maybe the Apple executives need to travel more outside the US.



 




Actually, it is more likely that the OpenStreetMap project is more organized and productive in SF than HK. It's not an American arrogance issue, since there are other countries wo appear to be happier with Apple's efforts because the OpenStreetMap project is much further ahead in their countries.
post #460 of 472

that san andreas fault is a bitch....

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post #461 of 472

I was watching The Verge podcast and the crew member was explaining that Apple Maps is still reliable, but Google Maps has a ton of data to comply with. However, Apple Maps will be a better source over a period of time. Apple have been working on Maps for about 5 years or so and it should have a much more compatible data package in tact upon iOS 6 release.

post #462 of 472

I've seen a little more accurate routing from Apple Maps than I did will Google Maps. I think it's a good first attempt, and the public transit is the only area it's really lacking. I think we'll see big improvements before too long.
 

post #463 of 472

My original maps tirade thread went completely unnoticed. Perhaps I posted it too early after the iOS 6 release. Anyway, here is my rant from that other thread (which got no replies).

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Wow. The new map app is horrible, possibly the worst map display I've seen in years.

 

Streets and street names are rendered in a manner that doesn't lend itself to easy scanning and comprehension. But seriously, the visual style makes it incredibly hard to use. It looks like a random bunch of words on a biege background. There is no visual coherence whatsoever.

 

On top of that, there is no street view and no public transit. No longer is it possible to see a picture of where i'm going.

 

It's almost bad enough to make me want to switch back to iOS5. Maps is one of the few apps I use on regular basis and this is a massive downgrade.

 

Am I being too harsh? Or is it really that horrible?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

With a bit more use, i'm beginning to be able to better verbalize one of the problems.

 

Streets are rendered with so little contrast (gray on beige) that they are barely visible. Instead, street names are rendered with much more contrast (black on beige). This makes it nearly impossible to visually scan the screen and gain a quick understanding of the street grid.

 

People that are visually and spatially oriented are not well served by the new look of the maps. The new maps makes the rendering of streets a secondary function. Display of street names is now the primary function.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

The visual indicator for one way streets is now almost invisible. At first I thought their database was wrong. But no, holding the phone a few inches from my head I was finally able to confirm that light blue arrows do exist to indicate one way streets. However they are light blue in a sea of beige and about the size of a fraction of a single letter of the street name. It is absolutely astounding that this got through Apple's quality control. Did the user tests not include one way streets?

 

Also, buildings are no longer drawn at all. Yep, one more visual cue that was removed.

Best yet... most streets are now completely unlabeled. It is necessary to zoom in ludicrously far for the names to be displayed. This is likely because some randomly chosen streets are labeled with too large of text in the normal zoom levels. There is no space left to include all the street names.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Gizmodo has a nice photo to illustrate some of these problems:

 

Should You Keep Your Old iPhone on iOS 5 for Google Maps?

http://gizmodo.com/5944437/should-you-keep-your-old-iphone-on-ios-5-for-google-maps

 

post #464 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewys808 View Post

Does anyone know how, we the users, can help to improve iOS maps?

I realize that we can't help with satellite imagery, but are there other deliberate ways we can help?...is there a type of help/feedback system?

Or does Apple just mine some of the data "automatically" from our daily usage?

 

Millions of iOS users are probably open to helping improve the maps, so what could we do to expedite?

 

And if there are deliberate methods to improve it, maybe the iOS community (or Apple) should shout those methods out via whatever media possible?
 

 

Moving on to SOLUTIONS...http://www.macrumors.com/2012/09/24/how-to-report-a-problem-with-ios-6-maps-data/

post #465 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCK75 View Post

Pretty terrible. Lists a restaurant as being in my neighborhood that is actually 500 miles away. Tells me to take an illegal left turn at the end of my street onto a main road.
The directions also stink (Boston). Google gave much better suggestions.
The lack of decent traffic data also stinks. Google is fantastic in this regard, iMaps is spotty as can be.
Basically a huge downgrade.


Well google maps on iphone is just crap also. I Have similar things happen to me when using it to navigate here in Finland.

 

A few that comes to mind:

- suggests wrong roads even if i search the right and it IS in the database.

- cant find numerous road numbers, just the road.

 

That pretty much makes using google maps on iphone to navigate a bad idea. Bought a navigation app a few years ago.

post #466 of 472
Count me in among those who think the new maps are unacceptably bad, and a huge embarrassment.
post #467 of 472

Google employees must be frightened.  Because Google Maps have flaws.  The new Apple Maps will challenge Google Maps in the long run.  Users and reviewers will compare them from now on.  When Apple Maps become more accurate than Google Maps, Google will lose its dominant position. 
 

post #468 of 472
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

All right, then I don't understand at all why they haven't just used OSM' maps 1:1 with what's online.

 

Exactly.

 

Everyone reading this - next time you have a Maps fail, type the *exact* same thing into OSM. I am very curious what happens.

post #469 of 472

Add to your list:

 

Why are parks and forests so important to Maps? On every scale, the only objects that are clearly defined are greenspaces. They graphically overwhelm everything else, even airports.

post #470 of 472
Originally Posted by drewys808 View Post

 

Moving on to SOLUTIONS...http://www.macrumors.com/2012/09/24/how-to-report-a-problem-with-ios-6-maps-data/

 

This is a solution for POI entries, but not for outright wrongness.

 

Again, Apple is taking the wrong data from the wrong place. They need to take the right data from the right place.

 

They don't need to *fix* the data, so reporting a "problem" like "city in the wrong place" isn't the solution.

 

Whatever the solution is, it will be someone at Apple pressing a button to do another database convert.

post #471 of 472

We are always expecting perfection from apple, but come on: as if Google Maps is very accurate!... - My street appears with the name of a street above; there are countries, as  Mozambique for instance, or some parts of Brazil that were left behind with null information. People take a photo of a mountain some kms away, post it with geo-reference and it becomes the place itself... give me a break!

post #472 of 472
What did people expect? A first generation application to better the present standards, whilst redefining our concepts of what maps should be? Apple certainly took a gamble, not only did they show what cards they had--possessing a potential that still viable--but laid their hand down too early. If Apple had released Maps as a Public Beta we'd be looking at it's potential. Unfortunately the natural progress and development that could have occurred will be lost in coming months band-aiding what is more a marketing fiasco than an app gone wrong.
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