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NYT: iOS Maps another internet services blunder for Apple - Page 4

post #121 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

But, ignoring disingenuous ads from Google, this is a reasonable subject to debate.

I certainly haven't ignored that...


...and this thread is about Apple Maps v Google Maps. That includes every aspect of each company's mapping solutions, not just the lowest-common-denominator.

Bottom line is Apple made the best choice of some very bad options. They had a contract that would expire before iOS 7 arrives, they wouldn't have had vector maps, TbT, and would have been using a much slower back-end compared to the maturing Android and WinPh offerings if they kept with Google. There was no choice but to jump in the deep end to swim now.

If we are going to fault Apple for anything it's for not starting their mapping service sooner, not because Google started their first or because Google is looking out for its own best interest.

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post #122 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Until they shed that side of the business, yes Google does build and sell set-top boxes thru their subsidiary Motorola Mobility
OK so Google is in the hardware business via MM acquisition. Point conceded. But does anyone really think Google purchased MM because they wanted to get into the hardware business? The Nexus 7 tablet was done in partnership with Asus and Google claims they're not making any profit off it (not sure how much Asus is).
post #123 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifij775 View Post

Am I the only one who thinks the NYT's version of journalism consists of kicking a man when he's down. I have to roll my eyes with each new "unnamed source"

When it comes to Apple yes. They get more hits that way. And hits are the game

Again they neglect that this is a brand new product etc. They a guilty of over expectation. And exaggerating the issue just like most iPhone issues have been. Maps isn't perfect but it's far from 100% crap like these articles keep saying.

Frankly I'm starting to feel like Tim should have done as Steve did. Worded it more as "this is a brand new product and all brand new products in the tech world will have issues. Issues that the creating companies are working on non stop to fix. But if that isn't good enough for you, return the damn phone."

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post #124 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Prediction: Apple will have the best mapping service within a year.

I think that's only going to happen if Apple releases a web-based version of their mapping app. There's a lot of iOS users but there's significantly more web users. That's important for a service that relies on crowding-sourcing.

Excellent suggestion!

They could include features such as "Find My Frinds" and "Find My Phone".
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post #125 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


Great video of map data gathering... Now, if they could only mount that technology on a golf cart…

Or even a backpack.

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/06/google-reveals-an-image-capturing-backpack-and-new-3d-maps/

 

Companies are going to exceptional lengths to define the landscape. That means there must be money in it.

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post #126 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Hey New York Times,

WHO OWN'S THE LARGEST ONLINE MUSIC STORE THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN?

Bunch of f**king bozo's.

But even the iTunes store isn't perfect. Video side has major issues with timings, quality, pricing. Metadata for everything sucks.
ITunes Match has some serious hiccups with dropping cover art etc.

Some of it is stuff they could fix if the copyright holders would get their heads out of their butts. Others just need Apple to do it and hopefully they are.

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post #127 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Excellent suggestion!
They could include features such as "Find My Frinds" and "Find My Phone".

Find my iPhone is already available on the web. When you log into your account at iCloud.com

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post #128 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Thanks for the link. The Navteq system seems to be the road based equivalent (with more bells and whistles) to the SAAB flight based recording system, they would fit together like a hand in a glove! I hope Apple is either licensing this or buying this company!


Yeah, before I knew about the Navteq system you may recall that since iOS 6 Maps beta was out I was suggesting such a system that would use tech similar to Flyover to do a digital mapping that would allow users a 3D street view. I really hope this comes to fruition in iOS 7. I'd think Navteq having a couple years to map, at least, the US would be sufficient time.

The more I think about it, you could mount the NavTeq equipment on a Segway and map the grounds and the inside of campuses, malls, office buildings...
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post #129 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

But unfortunately that was the reason and I think everyone should know that. Politics or not, Google forced Apple's hand. For the public to understand the rational for releasing an unfinished service you really can't sweep the main issue under the rug.
If Apple did that then Google would come out with their version of the facts and it would be a pissing match between the two companies. As an end user I don't care about the politics between Apple and Google, iOS and Android. I just want a map app that isn't worse than the one I had before. Nokia spent $8B investing in maps. How much had Apple spent?
post #130 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


You introduced it when you said that one can't reasonable decide if something is better or worse if it can't be exactly quantified. I'll make sure to use your lameduck argument the next time to blindly claim Apple is ahead of some other company/ I'll likely agree with you that they are but I'll expect you to exactly quantify the unquantifiable as you try to use the Android/Windows user's argument as to why Apple's products are just hype when they can list spec sheet items that have had for years in a very poor form compared to a much better experience Apple usually gets right out of the gate.

 

So, you aren't able to back up your assertion about how much better Google Maps is, so you thought you'd try a little context shifting to distract from that?

 

If you want to argue subjective issues, that's fine, just don't pretend they are objective.

post #131 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpics View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Thanks for the link. The Navteq system seems to be the road based equivalent (with more bells and whistles) to the SAAB flight based recording system, they would fit together like a hand in a glove! I hope Apple is either licensing this or buying this company!


Excuse me, but this is about the 30th post I've seen saying that Apple should buy Navteq.  And it's time to kill this meme:

 
Quote:
Navteq is a Chicago
-based provider of Geographic Information Systems
(GIS) data and is a major provider of base electronic navigable maps. The company is a wholly owned subsidiary
of Nokia
but operates independently.

All we all clear now??  Apple has money and talent to throw at this issue - but in terms of BUYING a company, they're gonna have to throw it somewhere else.  Which does, one supposes, leave licensing, if they're truly the best alternative, as MS has influence at Nokia, and are lately more focused on suppressing Google than crossing swords with Cupertino.....

Mmm... Apple bought C3 the company that currently provides 3-D mapping information to Nokia... Mmmmm....
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post #132 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

When it comes to Apple yes. They get more hits that way. And hits are the game
Again they neglect that this is a brand new product etc. They a guilty of over expectation. And exaggerating the issue just like most iPhone issues have been. Maps isn't perfect but it's far from 100% crap like these articles keep saying.
Frankly I'm starting to feel like Tim should have done as Steve did. Worded it more as "this is a brand new product and all brand new products in the tech world will have issues. Issues that the creating companies are working on non stop to fix. But if that isn't good enough for you, return the damn phone."
Tim and/or Scott should have done that at WWDC. Under sell and over deliver. They did the opposite. If they had labeled it a beta product and offered alternatives in the interim from the get go, no apology would have been needed.
post #133 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

If we are going to fault Apple for anything it's for not starting their mapping service sooner, not because Google started their first or because Google is looking out for its own best interest.

When Steve returned to Apple they were in serious financial trouble, and even after he guided the company back to a financial success he was always concerned about having enough cash to prevent any crisis like that from occurring again. In the spirit of conservative expenditures they acquired Placebase and Poly9 which were rather "C" grade mapping companies when they probably should have been looking at some of the top tier companies at the time when Tele Atlas and Navateq were still available. Now there are no more companies like that available except perhaps Tom Tom, Geo Eye, and Yelp. In my opinion, they really should have spent a couple billion more at the time instead of being so conservative.

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post #134 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

First off, most of these articles written for many of these publications like the NYT are written by journalists with questionable backgrounds in Technology.  Most of them aren't really trained in computer science, programming, engineering.  Most of them have a journalist background.

Journalism is just another fancy name for sensationalism to sell newspapers.  Apple is a big target due to their success and these newspapers have always knocked Apple every time an issue comes up and they are typically much nicer to the lessor quality alternative when they have BIGGER problems.

I've talked to several Android users that are frustrated with their products and can't stand how their Samsung S III sucks.

Unfortunately, some of us predate any available training in computer science. My first exposure to computers was in 1956 -- the IBM 305 RAMAC. My first programming instruction was in 1957 on the IBM 650 computer. My first job programming was in 1960 on the IBM 1401. My first job teaching programming was in 1963 on the IBM 1410.
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post #135 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

How in the hell can anyone claim that Google has no advantage over Apple mapping when Apple doesn't even have a web-based mapping presence?

This is probably the biggest advantage Google has over Apple in mapping. Through their web based maps, millions of people are plotting POIs, writing reviews, and adding businesses to the maps data set. Google also has all of its search data to bring to bear and integrate with their mapping solution. Those are some very powerful tools that Apple just doesn't have anything close to matching.

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post #136 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


But even the iTunes store isn't perfect. 

 

None of it's going to be perfect. It's the internet. 

 

This flak against Apple is now reaching ridiculous extremes. Way out of proportion. Other notable players can barely get a mobile platform off the ground - or are failing completely, never mind getting to enjoy the luxury of having a maps app as the biggest mark against it. 

post #137 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

So, you aren't able to back up your assertion about how much better Google Maps is, so you thought you'd try a little context shifting to distract from that?

If you want to argue subjective issues, that's fine, just don't pretend they are objective.

I've provided clear examples where Google Maps is better than the week old Apple Maps. You're choosing to put your head up your ass by ignoring the various ways that Google is ahead of Apple right now. You make Apple and fans of Apple look bad.

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post #138 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


OK so Google is in the hardware business via MM acquisition. Point conceded. But does anyone really think Google purchased MM because they wanted to get into the hardware business? The Nexus 7 tablet was done in partnership with Asus and Google claims they're not making any profit off it (not sure how much Asus is).

Personally I don't think Google has much interest in the hardware side of things either, but that doesn't mean I'm correct. They could absolutely have future plans involving new hardware and products unrelated to smartphones that no one here is privy to. 

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post #139 of 444

Unfortunately for Google and other competitors, maps makes up only a small part of a comprehensive mobile ecosystem.

 

The attempt to paint the iOS ecosystem (which is currently without peer) as somehow flawed because a map app still needs some work, is laughable. It goes to show just how far the also-rans and their shills will go to fight Apple's mindshare. 

post #140 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Personally I don't think Google has much interest in the hardware side of things either, but that doesn't mean I'm correct. They could absolutely have future plans involving new hardware and products unrelated to smartphones that no one here is privy to. 

I have heard that they bought Moto mostly for the patents but I would be surprised if they quit making phones.

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post #141 of 444

The NYT piece is seriously flawed. But the premise is not completely off base. Apple's recent track record is checkered - Ping and MobileMe were disasters. ITunes is effective but bloated. AppStore is also effective but messy. ICloud is working better now but there were out-of-the-gate stumbles. Even now, it is not the most intuitive software and certainly does not "just work" as advertised. And now, we have Maps. The fact of the matter is that Maps may be the biggest software project Apple has ever pulled off; the world is a rather large place after all.

 

Again, the NYT piece is flawed but Apple had this coming. They may need strong leadership for large scale software. I am tempted to say Forstall nor Cue may have the requisite experience. On the other hand, the products are not complete duds.
 

post #142 of 444

Perhaps the headline for this article should be: iOS Maps review another journalism blunder for NYT Technolgy staff.

post #143 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

When Steve returned to Apple they were in serious financial trouble, and even after he guided the company back to a financial success he was always concerned about having enough cash to prevent any crisis like that from occurring again. In the spirit of conservative expenditures they acquired. Placebase and Poly9 which were rather "C" grade mapping companies when they probably should have been looking at some of the top tier companies at the time when Tele Atlas and Navateq were still available. Now there are no more companies like that available except perhaps Tom Tom, Geo Eye, and Yelp. In my opinion, they really should have spent a couple billion more at the time instead of being so conservative.

I wish they would have... and started years earlier. Apple can usually buy cheap because they have such a solid and well built foundation that they only need small parts to button up areas where they are lacking. But with maps, they are not only only starting from scratch but having to replace a longstanding giant. In a year this could all old news but for now it's just overall inferior.

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post #144 of 444
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post
Video side has major issues with timings, quality, pricing. Metadata for everything sucks.

 

Hmm. That sounds like the opposite of my experience. 

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post #145 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

This is probably the biggest advantage Google has over Apple in mapping. Through their web based maps, millions of people are plotting POIs, writing reviews, and adding businesses to the maps data set. Google also has all of its search data to bring to bear and integrate with their mapping solution. Those are some very powerful tools that Apple just doesn't have anything close to matching.

I don't get why they are only focusing on iOS. They still use Google Maps with their Find My iPhone service in iCloud instead of their own back end or even OpenStreetMaps. Would even that had been an issue to include when they updated iCloud recently? Perhaps I'm missing something but I'd think a web presence would be pinnacle to the rapid advancement and success of Apple Maps as the de facto mapping back end.

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post #146 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I've provided clear examples where Google Maps is better than the week old Apple Maps. You're choosing to put your head up your ass by ignoring the various ways that Google is ahead of Apple right now. You make Apple and fans of Apple look bad.

 

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just asking people to either back up comments that pretend to be objective, or to stop pretending that they are.

post #147 of 444

I must be doing something wrong. Maps has been working beautifully for me. I find fewer strange directions and errors than Google Maps. It's easier to use. The display is better. Traffic info is somehow more detailed and accurate (though they must all pull from the same databases). And the integration with Siri makes it an actual useful tool. Even the 3D, sort of a gimmick but fun, looks great. Even with an occasional distortion, it's far more useful than what I had with Google. 

 

I'm sure there are errors, just I have found some big ones with Google Maps in the past. And I'd like some interface and settings tweaks that I can't find yet. But I really like the change. Is it just that Apple is being criticized for its own success? I can't get my Microsoft OS (bought from their own store) to view itself as a legal copy. Adobe products are getting crazier and crazier in their mad dash for a buck out of every last user. And that any of this stuff works at all is a miracle. Has Apple so pushed the computer product as dependable appliance that we grow to view it as more dependable than the refrigerator and washing machine?

post #148 of 444

NYT is not exactly an advocate of Apples even though each day they derive more and more of their income from Apples Newstand APP.

Every story I've ever read from NYT pertaining to Apple has a negative undertone. Not to mention that they are also late to the table putting out any news on Apple.

post #149 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I'm still waiting for one shred of legitimate evidence that Apple's Maps are significantly worse than Google's Maps.
NYT is doing what everyone else seems to be doing. Someone starts a rumor that there's a problem and everyone accepts it as fact. Then Google reinforces the rumor with an ad based on the fact that Apple's Maps is somehow inferior because it won't find a hand-selected, imaginary address.
The only one who even tried a side-by-side comparison is (surprisingly) Consumer Reports which found that Apple's Maps was as good as Google's Maps when it came to finding an address.
So please show me the FACTS (not oft-repated opinions or anecdotes) that "substantial criticism is due".
Why do you care? What's the point?

Tim Cook has already said Apple made a mistake, and tacitly admitted with a milquetoast public apology that Apple's Maps is not as Good as Google's web app by suggesting users use it as a result of their dissatisfaction with Apple's own.

There is no point in spending any more time defending Apple on this matter. Tim Cook did not have the brass to stand up to the media criticism, and now everyone from the media to its competitors and their respective fanbase have all the ammunition they need.

It doesn't matter that Apple Maps is arguably the best Map App developed to date, nor that very few people are actually having major problems with it. Tim Cook has kicked the legs out from under his company's major initiative dealing it a setback that has tainted all of the hard work that went into this App by Apple's talented employees, and cast doubt on any future initiatives Apple embarks on.

Sadly, facts don't matter anymore.
post #150 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post


Why do you care? What's the point?
Tim Cook has already said Apple made a mistake, and tacitly admitted with a milquetoast public apology that Apple's Maps is not as Good as Google's web app by suggesting users try as a result of their dissatisfaction with Apple's own.
There is no point in spending any more time defending Apple on this matter. Tim Cook did not have the brass to stand up to the media criticism, and now everyone from the media to its competitors and their respective fanbase have all the ammunition they need.
It doesn't matter that Apple Maps is arguably the best Map App developed to date, nor that very few people are actually having major problems with it. Tim Cook has kicked the legs out from under his company's major initiative dealing it a setback that has tainted all of the hard work that went into this App by Apple's talented employees, and cast doubt on any future initiatives Apple embarks on.
Sadly, facts don't matter anymore.

 

Yes, I completely agree that Tim Cook messed up big time on his handling of this. Hopefully, he'll learn from his mistakes, and from how his predecessor handled similar situations in the past, and he won't make that mistake again.

post #151 of 444
How about a link to the NYT article, eh?
post #152 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifij775 View Post

Am I the only one who thinks the NYT's version of journalism consists of kicking a man when he's down. I have to roll my eyes with each new "unnamed source"

 

The New York Times has not consisted of Journalism in many years.

post #153 of 444
This it the result of what happens when one decides to go all "thermonuclear"- Karma comes biting you in the ass.
Vengeance is not a righteous driving force.
Apple's mapping will never get close to Google's. Google is defined by its search and mapping engines. Who are we trying to fool here with all these ridiculous comments that it will catch up and surpass Google's ? That train left the station eons ago.
Edited by iSheldon - 9/29/12 at 9:27am
post #154 of 444
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post
Karma comes biting you in the ass.

 

I guess it makes sense that idiots would want to put their mouths back there. At least to them.


Apple mapping will never get close to Google's.

 

Apple music players will never get close to Sony's.

Apple phones will never get close to RIM's.

Apple laptops will never be cheaper than PCs.

Apple desktops will never be rated higher than PCs. 

 

Come on.


Google is defined by its search and mapping engines.

 

Then it's a crying shame that a company JUST entering the latter field is a year away from making them irrelevant in that marketplace, isn't it? Funny how that works, seeing as Apple has done it multiple times in multiple industries.


 Who are we trying to fool here with all these ridiculous comments that it will catch up and surpass Google's ? That train left the station eons ago.

 

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post #155 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

Who are we trying to fool here with all these ridiculous comments that it will catch up and surpass Goggle ? That train left the station eons ago.

Apple Maps may very well catch up and surpass the Google Maps for iOS that it replaces because that represented only a subset of the full Google Maps. As 'Soilp' pointed out earlier in the thread, Apple made the best choice among some really bad options. I agree that it will be an overwhelming challenge and they will likely never achieve complete parity with the full Google Maps for Android, desktop browsers or the Google Earth application but Apple maps will be adequate and at least they are out from under the thumb of Google in one more area.

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post #156 of 444
It's not where you start from, it's where you finish that counts.

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post #157 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

So, exactly how big is Google's advantage? Quantify it. Globally. Otherwise, all we have are anecdotal tales about this and that. If one is going to claim that Google's maps are "so much better", I think one ought to quantify "so much". Otherwise, how do we know "so much" isn't "a little" or even "sometimes better, sometimes worse, depending on the data one looks at"?

Do you think Mac OS X is better than Windows? If so, then quantify it? See how stupid that request is? I can judge better and worse between two things without having to generate an spreadsheet that shows the exact quantity of its difference.

You want some quantification? Based on a scale from 0 to 1:

Has a street level view: Google = 1, Apple = 0
Has web presence: Google = 1, Apple = 0

There you go: 2 to 0.


Let's reverse the scenario. Lets say that Apple has had the mapping for years and Google has recently gotten into it just last week replaced their Android Maps app using the Apple Maps back-end with their own. Now lets say that you see that when you share a link it will still open up in Apple Maps on the web because Google has no web presence for their maps. Are you going to say that you'd not call out Google for still relying on Apple and not point out that Google's mapping simple isn't a complete? Of course you would!

 

Interesting...  Apple does have a limited web presence for maps with Find My Phone on the iCloud site.  Both the beta iCloud and normal iCloud use Google as a backend for Find My Phone.   The Find My Phone app on iOS 6 uses TomTom as a backend.

 

In my experience, the iDevice (TomTom) version is better than the web (Google) version.   I didn't notice [the backend] at the time, but I tracked my granddaughter's recent trips to Vancouver BC and Chicago using iOS 6 MAps on my iPad -- it was quite good!

 

I did drop back to iOS 5 running on an iPad 1 to capture a few street views  :)  Though now, I'd use the Street Viewer app on iOS 6.

 

 

What this signifies to me, is that Apple has a plan to replace all its external mapping backends with what they use in iOS Maps 6.   As that matures, it should be a a relatively easy process to switch backends when the time is appropriate.  Then Apple could open up a maps.apple.com web site to the general public...  

 

Likely, it would be most used for:

  • sharing maps with non-apple mobile devices
  • a 3D alternative to Google Earth or Nokia Maps on computers or mobile devices
  • to flesh out, refine and correct Apple Mapping Services
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post #158 of 444
So who really cares what NYT thinks? Apple maps are fine. They work perfectly for me in IL. I am not claiming they are perfect everywhere but come on if we can let MS sell us crap forever? Apple will fix the problems and quickly. This is way over blown.
post #159 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post



Apple music players will never get close to Sony's.
Apple phones will never get close to RIM's.
Apple laptops will never be cheaper than PCs.
Apple desktops will never be rated higher than PCs. 

Come on.


So the moderator on AI doesn't understand the difference between hardware and software?
post #160 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Apple Maps may very well catch up and surpass the Google Maps for iOS that it replaces because that represented only a subset of the full Google Maps. As 'Soilp' pointed out earlier in the thread, Apple made the best choice among some really bad options. I agree that it will be an overwhelming challenge and they will likely never achieve complete parity with the full Google Maps for Android, desktop browsers or the Google Earth application but Apple maps will be adequate and at least they are out from under the thumb of Google in one more area.

His points are moot unless Apple Maps get Streetview. THe majority of the complaints have been about lack of StreetView.
I'm looking forward to seeing the Apple cars - coming soon to a block near you.
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