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NYT: iOS Maps another internet services blunder for Apple - Page 7

post #241 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

Without the software, it wouldn't work at all!  Get real -- Apple has never been a "Hardware only" company -- I have 34 years experience using, buying, reselling, co-developing and programming their products.   The Apple ][ had a built-in (ROM) Assembler/Debugger, Integer BASIC, Hi and Lo-res graphics, TV Typewriter...  All "software" that enabled the "hardware" to do something.  Even the maimframe and mini computers of that day could not match the Apple ][ built-in software.

 

Applesoft II BASIC can also be added, since it is an Apple-specific enhancement of Microsoft BASIC, in the same way that modern OS X is built on top of the Mach kernel.

 

I agree that Apple shouldn't be thought of as a hardware only company. Apple understands better than anyone that hardware and software must perfectly complement each other to create the perfect product.

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post #242 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Exactly how far behind is Windows behind Mac OS X?

 

Wrong question!  Exactly far is Windows behind iOS 6?

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post #243 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I have lots of experience hearing/reading public apologies... And made a few myself as CEO of my company.   IMO, @jragosta is correct in his assessment of Tim's letter -- and you are wrong!
Fine, I'm willing to concede I am wrong, and hope that I am. But, with all due respect sir, you are obviously no Seve Jobs. I dont know you, or your work as a CEO, but I must assume as much given that you think Tom Cook's letter is appropriate, and sort of fuels my point that it wreaks of the kind of letter a typical CEO writes (again with all due respect to you). And perhaps that's what bothers me, is that it is so unlike Jobs, and more like what I would expect from AT&T and other typical corporations. This is the first real debacle Cook has had to contend with, and perhaps he is the man for the job and it will take some getting used to, but right now it sure doesn't feel that way.

In either case, as jragosta and others are fond of saying -- show me the facts; all I'm asking is to be shown a line by line clarification of this view that Cook's letter does anything but denigrate Apple Maps. I've already given my interpretation above (or more accurately the way it is being reviewed by the general public), so feel free to call me names (as is the usual MO on this forum), since my "critical thinking" doesn't measure up to the criticisms levied against it, but a little clarity might help frame my view of the letter differently, and persuade me otherwise. I KNOW what I think, and illustrated why (right or wrong). I'm not seeing the same clarity from those who feel the opposite. That's all I'm saying.
post #244 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Now, you are just being stubborn.  How do you know what changes were made to iOS... say to support the 3 new, more-powerful CPU cores, a larger screen, and more RAM increased performance -- all without reducing battery life.  There are things in iOS 6 that we have yet to see.  There are people playing 2K and 4K videos on an iPad -- that requires very powerful hardware and software support.  

Before you downgrade the iOS changes, I suggest you become an iOS developer and see just what is contained, and what has changed in iOS.
I guess I'm downgrading it because what was presented to the public as the standout features of iOS 6 are either 'meh' or not really ready for prime time. Maybe if Forstall talked more about what was done to make the new iPhone scream I'd have a better appreciation for it.
post #245 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Wrong question!  Exactly far is Windows behind iOS 6?

It really depends on what your PoV is. With my original query the opposite could be asked if you were talking about servers. MS makes a very comprehensive server OS.

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post #246 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

Without the software, it wouldn't work at all!  Get real -- Apple has never been a "Hardware only" company -- I have 34 years experience using, buying, reselling, co-developing and programming their products.   The Apple ][ had a built-in (ROM) Assembler/Debugger, Integer BASIC, Hi and Lo-res graphics, TV Typewriter...  All "software" that enabled the "hardware" to do something.  Even the maimframe and mini computers of that day could not match the Apple ][ built-in software.

 

Applesoft II BASIC can also be added, since it is an Apple-specific enhancement of Microsoft BASIC, in the same way that modern OS X is built on top of the Mach kernel.

 

I agree that Apple shouldn't be thought of as a hardware only company. Apple understands better than anyone that hardware and software must perfectly complement each other to create the perfect product.

 

Exactly... The hardware is the "instruments" and the software is the "musicians"... and, in the case of iOS, Scott Forstall is the conductor.

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post #247 of 444

IMHO it was a mistake for Cook to mention competitors by name in his letter and to provide user instructions, rather than referring customers to a helpful website. For instance, many iPhone users may have no idea what is meant when he suggests making web app icons. In the opening paragraph he also states the company is doing everything it can to make Maps "better" instead of the best. It's easy to make something better, especially if you're conceding it's not so great to begin with. Just make it a tiny bit better. Now, making something the best is a goal worthy of talking about. Making something only "better" suggests a lack of inspiration and commitment. I know, I know, in the last paragraph he writes about making Maps the best in the world, but the opening paragraph really sets the tone.

post #248 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


Find My Phone on an iDevice uses a TomTom backend -- On iCloud it uses a Google backend.

Here is what I think Apple is doing:
  1. getting mobile mapping off of Google ASAP
  2. eventually, migrate all Apple mapping to the new backend
  3. avoid the problems when trying to change everything at once ala MobileMe

I think #1 is most important in that it prevents Google from tracking millions of iDevices and using billions of map requests to refine the Google backend.

I suspect that a statistician could plot the tipping point that results from removing billions of requests from Google and moving them to Apple.

Data... is Da' Man!

When it comes to most things Apple releases I appreciate that they focus on a certain aspect, make it great from the start, then add features and expand from there. But maps are very different, they needed to make this feature reach and compete out of the gate. This is why I've been right from day one about this sort of public backlash.

So why is this different? It's because they aren't creating a new way for users to use maps, but simply replacing a maps app. As I've said constantly, it is brilliant in many ways and potential for being the best overall mapping app in the business but it's also very anemic. They had years so why isn't there a web presence built alongside and ready for Sept 19th, 2012? Why did they wait so long to get into mapping? It's no one's fault but Apple that they trusted Google/Schmidt. Note that Schmidt stepped down the beginning of August 2009 and by the end of September 2009 Apple had bought PlaceBase.

If there is anything to learn hear is that Apple does learn from its mistakes (which they've shown time and time again).

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post #249 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post
Now, making something the best is a goal worthy of talking about. Making something only "better" suggests a lack of inspiration and commitment. I know, I know, in the last paragraph he writes about making Maps the best in the world, but the opening paragraph really sets the tone.

 

That's only because people are so used to Apple making everything the 'best'. In the end, the world is too big, nobody can make everything the 'best'. That's just the reality. 

 

Apple is losing focus by trying to get on way too many projects and try to do well in all of them, while Google and other companies are cutting projects and focus on fewer ones. The world is flat a long time ago, let's not roll back to the old ages, and remember the Apps from all over the world is what make iOS great, not because of all these little projects Apple is trying to do to make the home screen more 'integrated'. 

post #250 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Wrong question!  Exactly far is Windows behind iOS 6?

It really depends on what your PoV is. With my original query the opposite could be asked if you were talking about servers. MS makes a very comprehensive server OS.

 

 

Joke mon... Though... Come the A7 or A8... iOS will likely be running some servers, like a home server, or SMB server with Thunderbolt HDDs.  Think of something about the size of an AppleTV (used alone, or in multiples). I Suspect this would an excellent fit for small video editing shops...  By that time, FCP X will, likely, be running on iPads 

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post #251 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by drobforever View Post

That's only because people are so used to Apple making everything the 'best'. In the end, the world is too big, nobody can make everything the 'best'. That's just the reality. 

Apple is losing focus by trying to get on way too many projects and try to do well in all of them, while Google and other companies are cutting projects and focus on fewer ones. The world is flat a long time ago, let's not roll back to the old ages, and remember the Apps from all over the world is what make iOS great, not because of all these little projects Apple is trying to do to make the home screen more 'integrated'. 

1) Regardless of how many projects you have you should try to do well in all of them.

2) How is Apple losing focus? There PMPs, smartphones, tablets, PCs, HW, OSes, SW, services, and ecosystem are all still better than everyone else.

3) Apple has over 60k employees. They can hire more people as needed. I think Apple should have invested more into mapping but for a 3 year investment between the first purchase and the first release Maps in iOS 6 is pretty damn, it's just not nearly as good as others that have been in the business a lot longer. They are a neophyte for sure but nothing in any area of their business shows they are losing focus. In fact, I'd argue they getting better at focusing.

4) I've been saying for months that Apple should have sat on Apple Maps for another year. Based on the recent information that contract would have ended before the year was up and other failings from Google protecting its own I recant that and say Apple made the best choice of a bad situation.

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post #252 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

Fine, I'm willing to concede I am wrong, and hope that I am. But, with all due respect sir, you are obviously no Seve Jobs. I dont know you, or your work as a CEO, but I must assume as much given that you think Tom Cook's letter is appropriate, and sort of fuels my point that it wreaks of the kind of letter a typical CEO writes (again with all due respect to you). And perhaps that's what bothers me, is that it is so unlike Jobs, and more like what I would expect from AT&T and other typical corporations. This is the first real debacle Cook has had to contend with, and perhaps he is the man for the job and it will take some getting used to, but right now it sure doesn't feel that way.

That is nonsense. The letter was appropriate. Whether you want to compare him to another CEO is irrelevant.

Just curious - how many years experience do you have as a CEO that makes you think you're such an expert?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

You overlook the context of the letter -- it is in response to the media reporting that Apple failed..

I didn't overlook anything. My analysis is still valid.

If it hadn't been for the media froth-fest, it wouldn't have been necessary, but that's it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

You don't have to worry about me, though thank you for your concern.
But do you really think parsing the explicit meaning of Tom Cook's lame apology is going to make a hill-of-beans difference to all the iPhone users who buy their phones at Walmart?
No matter what you infer from Tim Cook's apology letter, and it is far from definitive, the media, and Apple's competitors and detractors, have all spun it the worst possible way.

And the iphone user who buys their phone at Walmart isn't going to even know about that letter.

The people who are spinning the letter in a negative way were already attacking Apple in every possible way. But now they're fighting over whether Cool should have written the letter and whether it's apologetic enough or too apologetic instead of spewing more FUD about the phone. That's a fair trade any day.
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post #253 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

IMHO it was a mistake for Cook to mention competitors by name in his letter and to provide user instructions, rather than referring customers to a helpful website.

That is a legitimate comment. I don't agree 100%, though. Many of the apps he mentioned by name actually work in cooperation with Apple's Maps. He almost had to mention Google because people were whining that they had lost Google. Saying "it's still there if you really want it" defuses that argument. If he hadn't mentioned apps by name, it sounds evasive and weak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

For instance, many iPhone users may have no idea what is meant when he suggests making web app icons. In the opening paragraph he also states the company is doing everything it can to make Maps "better" instead of the best. It's easy to make something better, especially if you're conceding it's not so great to begin with. Just make it a tiny bit better. Now, making something the best is a goal worthy of talking about. Making something only "better" suggests a lack of inspiration and commitment. I know, I know, in the last paragraph he writes about making Maps the best in the world, but the opening paragraph really sets the tone.

Except for one thing. Read the first paragraph where he says that their goal is to make the best user experience possible. I'm sure he thought the words through carefully and got feedback from all of his advisors. I'm not 100% sure why he chose the exact wording he did, but I can speculate. If he had said "we're going to make it the best", it sounds like hype and vaporware and the kind of meaningless promises that the competition makes. If he says "we're making it better and here's how we're going to do that", the customer can accept that as true. Then, they consider that just about everything else Apple has done was truly exceptional and conclude that Apple will eventually make this exceptional, as well.
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post #254 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

 

Apple could have explained the problem with something like:  

 

"We wanted to bring the best and most up-to-date mapping services to our iOS customers.  Unfortunately, we were unable to negotiate an agreement with Google to provide those services... so we decided to built a new mapping service from the ground up.  We are late to the game, but we will work to provide the best solution to our customers!"

 

 

This is a statement of fact -- not a blame game or pissing contest.  However, the observer can "read between the lines", do a little research, surmise what happened, and assign any blame as they see fit.

 

Had they done it this way, likely, half of the bloggers/journalists would have taken Apple's side and made Tim's apology unnecessary.

 

 

Finally, All this bad publicity and Tim's apology -- is still publicity.

 

Apple has accepted the challenge in the public forum -- now, all they need do is "perform" and fix the problems.   Once they do that, they will have a net gain from the publicity...  one step back, then a leap forward for Apple.

In the end it is all about properly managing expectations

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post #255 of 444

@jragosta: to summarize, IMHO, Cook's letter was not well-crafted. (even the provided instructions seem terse and out of place or rushed).

post #256 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I have lots of experience hearing/reading public apologies... And made a few myself as CEO of my company.   IMO, @jragosta is correct in his assessment of Tim's letter -- and you are wrong!
Fine, I'm willing to concede I am wrong, and hope that I am. But, with all due respect sir, you are obviously no Seve Jobs. I dont know you, or your work as a CEO, but I must assume as much given that you think Tom Cook's letter is appropriate, and sort of fuels my point that it wreaks of the kind of letter a typical CEO writes (again with all due respect to you). And perhaps that's what bothers me, is that it is so unlike Jobs, and more like what I would expect from AT&T and other typical corporations. This is the first real debacle Cook has had to contend with, and perhaps he is the man for the job and it will take some getting used to, but right now it sure doesn't feel that way.

In either case, as jragosta and others are fond of saying -- show me the facts; all I'm asking is to be shown a line by line clarification of this view that Cook's letter does anything but denigrate Apple Maps. I've already given my interpretation above (or more accurately the way it is being reviewed by the general public), so feel free to call me names (as is the usual MO on this forum), since my "critical thinking" doesn't measure up to the criticisms levied against it, but a little clarity might help frame my view of the letter differently, and persuade me otherwise. I KNOW what I think, and illustrated why (right or wrong). I'm not seeing the same clarity from those who feel the opposite. That's all I'm saying.

 

Debacle is too strong a word, IMO... Apple screwed up in how the presented the Maps app at introduction... It is taking its first baby steps, but has excellent genes and potential

 

Tim is unlike Jobs -- and it would be a big mistake for Tim to try to act like Jobs...  Steve chose Tim because of who Tim was -- not because Tim approximated who Steve was.

 

I do not see anything in Tim's letter that denigrates Apple Maps.

 

I do not believe we have enough time or data to know how Tim's statement is being reviewed by the general  public -- anecdotal reports go both ways.

 

 

Here is Tim's letter.  Show me the parts you find offensive, coporate-speak or misleading.   How would you have done it?

 

Quote:

To our customers,

 
At Apple, we strive to make world-class products that deliver the best experience possible to our customers. With the launch of our new Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment. We are extremely sorry for the frustration this has caused our customers and we are doing everything we can to make Maps better.
 
We launched Maps initially with the first version of iOS. As time progressed, we wanted to provide our customers with even better Maps including features such as turn-by-turn directions, voice integration, Flyover and vector-based maps. In order to do this, we had to create a new version of Maps from the ground up.
 
There are already more than 100 million iOS devices using the new Apple Maps, with more and more joining us every day. In just over a week, iOS users with the new Maps have already searched for nearly half a billion locations. The more our customers use our Maps the better it will get and we greatly appreciate all of the feedback we have received from you.
 
While we're improving Maps, you can try alternatives by downloading map apps from the App Store like Bing, MapQuest and Waze, or use Google or Nokia maps by going to their websites and creating an icon on your home screen to their web app.
 
Everything we do at Apple is aimed at making our products the best in the world. We know that you expect that from us, and we will keep working non-stop until Maps lives up to the same incredibly high standard. 
 
Tim Cook 
Apple's CEO 

 

 

 

Here's how I read it.  This is not an attempt to put words in Tim's mouth -- rather to show how I interpret what Tim is saying to me:

 

Quote:
To our customers, (to those who are important to us -- not the press or the bloggers)
 
At Apple, we strive to make world-class products that deliver the best experience possible to our customers. With the launch of our new Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment (we failed to deliver the best experience possible). We are extremely sorry for the frustration this has caused our customers (we apologize for the effect not the product nor the attempted solution) and we are doing everything we can to make Maps better (we are doing everything we can to make Maps better -- to fix the effect).
 
We launched Maps initially with the first version of iOS. As time progressed, we wanted to provide our customers with even better Maps including features such as turn-by-turn directions, voice integration, Flyover and vector-based maps. In order to do this, we had to create a new version of Maps from the ground up.(Without assigning blame, we are taking responsibility for a new app that will provide the features that you, our customers, want).
 
There are already more than 100 million iOS devices using the new Apple Maps, with more and more joining us every day. In just over a week, iOS users with the new Maps have already searched for nearly half a billion locations. (It seems that the Apple maps app is already acceptable to millions of users) The more our customers use our Maps the better it will get and we greatly appreciate all of the feedback we have received from you (we now have the ability to improve the experience based on usage and customer feedback -- we never had that capability before).
 
While we're improving Maps, you can try alternatives by downloading map apps from the App Store like Bing, MapQuest and Waze, or use Google or Nokia maps by going to their websites and creating an icon on your home screen to their web app (here are some alternative solutions that you can use until the Apple maps app meets your needs and expectations).
 
Everything we do at Apple is aimed at making our products the best in the world. We know that you expect that from us, and we will keep working non-stop until Maps lives up to the same incredibly high standard. (We know what you expect of us and we are committed to make Apple maps meet your expectations).
 
Tim Cook 
Apple's CEO 

 


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 9/29/12 at 3:21pm
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post #257 of 444
I've seen a lot of anecdotal reports about Apple's map quality. This is frustrating, since there's inconsistency in what one person tests vs another.

I did find one attempt to quantify the accuracy of Apple's geocoder using city names in Ontario, Canada. The results aren't good: Apple returned correct data only 20% of the time. Certainly, there is much more to a map than the geocoder, but this is a pretty bad first start for Apple.
post #258 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

@jragosta: to summarize, IMHO, Cook's letter was not well-crafted. (even the provided instructions seem terse and out of place or rushed).

 

Nah!  Here's terse:

 

  1. We understand the problem!
  2. We have our best people working on it!
  3. We have no further comments at this time!

 

I have actually heard that used on more than 1 occasion.

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post #259 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Debacle is too strong a word, IMO... Apple screwed up in how the presented the Maps app at introduction... It is taking its first baby steps, but has excellent genes and potential

Yeah, debacle is a strong word. People are reading too much into all of this. There are many facets to this story. When I voiced my concerns for this very issue happening months ago I never said that it will be the death of Apple or any other extreme comments but it was mostly read that way, and sill is.

I just don't get why some can't accept that a week old Apple Maps isn't besting a nearly 8 year old Google Maps out of the gate. How was that even on the table in some people's minds?
Quote:
Tim is unlike Jobs -- and it would be a big mistake for Tim to try to act like Jobs...  Steve chose Tim because of who Tim was -- not because Tim approximated who Steve was.

I think Steve would have done the same thing. I think Maps would have been pushed and I think in a year the whole thing will not be an issue just as antenna-gate (which was an entire media event) wasn't a real issue. They are still selling these faulty iPhone 4's that can't even make a call unless you were a Faraday cage glove to block the Thetans being released by your body¡

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post #260 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekmorr View Post

I've seen a lot of anecdotal reports about Apple's map quality. This is frustrating, since there's inconsistency in what one person tests vs another.
I did find one attempt to quantify the accuracy of Apple's geocoder using city names in Ontario, Canada. The results aren't good: Apple returned correct data only 20% of the time. Certainly, there is much more to a map than the geocoder, but this is a pretty bad first start for Apple.

Did you submit your results to Apple? If you do/did, I wonder how long before they update it.

Any way to know how Google fares with the same test? Can you still build for iOS 5 maps in Xcode?

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post #261 of 444
Now can we get onto more important issues affecting Apple? For instance, why didn't they change their Maps icon to show their new spaceship location instead of 1 Infinite Loop?

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post #262 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


Find My Phone on an iDevice uses a TomTom backend -- On iCloud it uses a Google backend.

Here is what I think Apple is doing:
  1. getting mobile mapping off of Google ASAP
  2. eventually, migrate all Apple mapping to the new backend
  3. avoid the problems when trying to change everything at once ala MobileMe

I think #1 is most important in that it prevents Google from tracking millions of iDevices and using billions of map requests to refine the Google backend.

I suspect that a statistician could plot the tipping point that results from removing billions of requests from Google and moving them to Apple.

Data... is Da' Man!

When it comes to most things Apple releases I appreciate that they focus on a certain aspect, make it great from the start, then add features and expand from there. But maps are very different, they needed to make this feature reach and compete out of the gate. This is why I've been right from day one about this sort of public backlash.

So why is this different? It's because they aren't creating a new way for users to use maps, but simply replacing a maps app. As I've said constantly, it is brilliant in many ways and potential for being the best overall mapping app in the business but it's also very anemic. They had years so why isn't there a web presence built alongside and ready for Sept 19th, 2012? Why did they wait so long to get into mapping? It's no one's fault but Apple that they trusted Google/Schmidt. Note that Schmidt stepped down the beginning of August 2009 and by the end of September 2009 Apple had bought PlaceBase.

If there is anything to learn hear is that Apple does learn from its mistakes (which they've shown time and time again).

 

I agree with everything you said.  Given the timing and the choices available, I think that Apple did the right thing... didn't do it very well, mind you -- but did the right thing.  

 

The timing of Schmidt and PlaceBase is interesting.  It is possible, that in late 2009, that the Apple-Google relationship could still be repaired -- we won't do services like search and maps -- you won't do mobile OSes.  Who knows, but Jobs and Schmidt were still speaking at that time... Perhaps PlaceBase was just Apple showing the flag.

 

One can dither that Apple could have bought PlaceBase earlier or that they were wise to buy it when they did...

 

But. that's all in the past!  I am happy that Maps is out from underneath Google's thumb --- as, daily, they become more undesirable as a partner, competitor, service provider.

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post #263 of 444

This thread is fantastic comedy value:

 

- Tech journalists are unqualified hacks unless they have a degree in engineering or extensive training in software development. (all sports journalists are trained athletes)

- NYT's loathes Apple and they pile on at every opportunity. They even time their articles to cause Apple maximum hurt.

- Nobody reads the NYT's anymore so wtf cares what their writers have to say?

- Google may have secretly released an app that is only available on jailbroken phones because it supports violating warranties and maybe even considered malware. This is the scandal nobody is investigating. Why?!?! Because the media hates Apple!!!

- The sources in the story are surely fired ex-Apple employees with an axe to grind

- Apple's map technology is already year's ahead of Google, they will destroy Google with the next release; Google is terrified because they know this is true.

- Tim Cook has already said sorry therefore all journalists and writers with something negative to say should be silenced. We all know the issue has been put to bed since Apple is sorry. Anyone who publishes another negative maps-related  article at this point is clearly anti-Apple.

- Only a dozen or so iPhone 5s are known to be scratched at this point. Apple sold 5 million iPhone 5's so far. So 4,999,988 of them were perfect, and yet the Apple hating media writes a ton of stories about possible manufacturing defects.

 

All of this from reading just the first two pages of this thread.

 

I'm sure the other 5 pages (at the time of me posting) follow similar themes (as all these threads based around a negative Apple article do) so in the words of Ryan Seacrest: I'M OUT.

post #264 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

Nah!  Here's terse:

 

  1. We understand the problem!
  2. We have our best people working on it!
  3. We have no further comments at this time!

 

I have actually heard that used on more than 1 occasion.

By terse, I was referring to Cook's instructions. That one paragraph is the only paragraph in his letter that consists of just a single sentence. Cook might have suggested users continue to use iOS 6 Maps (after all, it's often not that bad), but instead he recommends users try alternatives. Not well-crafted.

post #265 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

...didn't do it very well, mind you -- but did the right thing.

Another way to look at it is taking a bullet. We can say that only idiots get shot or something to that effect but if we look at the whole picture perhaps we'd see that Apple has taken a bullet for us and in a year Maps will be fully recovered and we'll be better off than we would have had Apple stuck with Google for another year and regenerated their contract.

Another analogy (thought these would be easier) would be jumping off a 3 story building that's on fire. You either get severely burned which won't fully heal or risk breaking a leg or two from the fall. It's a bad situation all around but I think I'd risk the broken leg(s).

I'd even say that with only 3 years since buying their first mapping company and the dozen or more mapping partners listed for Apple Maps I think they did a hell of a job, just not nearly as complete of a job as would have been required to prevent this backlash. IOW, there is no paradigm shift that will occur from Apple Maps the way the iPhone/iOS, iPod and Mac et al. has done to the industry when Apple released them. It's now just playing catchup to the giants in these fields and that's like trying to use a Rook to catch a Queen.

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post #266 of 444

Silly really. First, Mobile Me was largely just free iTools revamped. iTools was hugely popular and it was free. When Apple changed to the Mobile Me model, is when popularity weaned. Further, by all counts iCloud is doing well. It is my only email service. 

 

Second, Ping was not ill conceived, it was a product designed to work with Facebook. Apple couldn't strike a deal with Facebook, and released the product with Facebook integration anyway. Facebook pulled the plug. Not really Apple's fault. 

post #267 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

By terse, I was referring to Cook's instructions. That one paragraph is the only paragraph in his letter that consists of just a single sentence. Cook might have suggested users continue to use iOS 6 Maps (after all, it's often not that bad), but instead he recommends users try alternatives. Not well-crafted.

 

 

Cook did not recommend people use alternatives to Apple Maps. Instead, after talking about all the people using Maps, he said while Apple is improving the product, people can use alternatives. Can is the operative word. Not should. The implication is stay with us, but if the product doesn't work for you here are some alternates you might like better. 

post #268 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

]
iCloud.com works just fine on a PC

 

Yes, but I believe you need an iOS device or Mac to get an account.

post #269 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


 I think Steve would have done the same thing. I think Maps would have been pushed and I think in a year the whole thing will not be an issue just as antenna-gate (which was an entire media event) wasn't a real issue. 

 

 

The only difference is Jobs might have called a media event. He, however, would not have apologized. Jobs might have called the product a beta out of the gate, which would have solved a lot of problems. If not, he would have said something like:

 

"Apple's mission is to make the best products in the world for our customers. That is the whole purpose of our existence. Our new map application found in iOS 6 is no exception. We designed it with the intent of it being the best Map application on the planet.  


With that said, there has been a lot of media attention surrounding our new Map application. Most of the media stories paint our application in a bad light. The purpose of this open letter is to address these criticisms. 

Before I do this, let me explain a little bit about why we changed our Map application. There is a proverb that says if you want to make a great omelet you have to be willing to break a few eggs. This essentially means if you want to achieve something wonderful, you have to be willing to destroy what is already there. This is the approach Apple took with its new map application. Apple wished to provide customers with great new features like turn by turn directions, beautiful graphics, and voice  search. Our existing map partnership with Google, however, failed to allow us to do that. So with our new Map application we started from scratch to deliver these features.


After a week on the market I can tell you that many of our customers love the new features like turn - by -turn directions, the speed of the application, fly over, Siri integration, and the amazing graphics. Some other customers, however, are rightfully concerned that the application has work to do in terms of providing correct information in regards to finding locations as well as some rendering issues. 

In truth, we simply failed to anticipate the amount of these errors being reported by these customers. We fully intend to investigate all these concerns, and rapidly issue fixes where necessary. I apologize if these bugs have caused some of our customers trouble.  

Meanwhile, please know a map application is largely dependent on user information because maps frequently change. All large mapping companies like Google and Nokia rely on users to help correct information contained in the maps. Apple is no exception. To address some of our users concerns we rely heavily on user impute to point out mistakes. We sincerely appreciate our customers who have been using the application and reporting incorrect information. 

Despite some of the rough edges in our first release, the application has laid the foundation for the best mapping application out there. I ask you to stick with us as we do our best to make the needed changes quickly. 


Please know, if our new map application is not usable for your needs, there are a variety of excellent third party maps on our App Store. If necessary for your needs, I invite you to try them out. Thank you"

post #270 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 

Nah!  Here's terse:

 

  1. We understand the problem!
  2. We have our best people working on it!
  3. We have no further comments at this time!

 

I have actually heard that used on more than 1 occasion.

By terse, I was referring to Cook's instructions. That one paragraph is the only paragraph in his letter that consists of just a single sentence. Cook might have suggested users continue to use iOS 6 Maps (after all, it's often not that bad), but instead he recommends users try alternatives. Not well-crafted.

 

 

I agree!

 

Quote:
While we're improving Maps, you can try alternatives by downloading map apps from the App Store like Bing, MapQuest and Waze, or use Google or Nokia maps by going to their websites and creating an icon on your home screen to their web app.

 

That is a very difficult idea to present... We want you to keep using Maps, but here are some specific alternatives that may help you the get over the bumps.

 

Odd that he didn't mention Navigon, TomTom  or even Street Viewer... but that quickly becomes more information (alternatives) than Apple wants to provide.

 

It may have been wordsmithed a bit too much.  I think I would have liked a more direct approach -- Something like:

 

"We hope that you will continue to use Maps and help us to improve it!  For those times when you need added capability, there are alternatives on our app store...."

 

It's a toughy!

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post #271 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


 I think Steve would have done the same thing. I think Maps would have been pushed and I think in a year the whole thing will not be an issue just as antenna-gate (which was an entire media event) wasn't a real issue. 

 

 

The only difference is Jobs might have called a media event. He, however, would not have apologized. Jobs might have called the product a beta out of the gate, which would have solved a lot of problems. If not, he would have said something like:

 

"Apple's mission is to make the best products in the world for our customers. That is the whole purpose of our existence. Our new map application found in iOS 6 is no exception. We designed it with the intent of it being the best Map application on the planet.  


With that said, there has been a lot of media attention surrounding our new Map application. Most of the media stories paint our application in a bad light. The purpose of this open letter is to address these criticisms. 

Before I do this, let me explain a little bit about why we changed our Map application. There is a proverb that says if you want to make a great omelet you have to be willing to break a few eggs. This essentially means if you want to achieve something wonderful, you have to be willing to destroy what is already there. This is the approach Apple took with its new map application. Apple wished to provide customers with great new features like turn by turn directions, beautiful graphics, and voice  search. Our existing map partnership with Google, however, failed to allow us to do that. So with our new Map application we started from scratch to deliver these features.


After a week on the market I can tell you that many of our customers love the new features like turn - by -turn directions, the speed of the application, fly over, Siri integration, and the amazing graphics. Some other customers, however, are rightfully concerned that the application has work to do in terms of providing correct information in regards to finding locations as well as some rendering issues. 

In truth, we simply failed to anticipate the amount of these errors being reported by these customers. We fully intend to investigate all these concerns, and rapidly issue fixes where necessary. I apologize if these bugs have caused some of our customers trouble.  

Meanwhile, please know a map application is largely dependent on user information because maps frequently change. All large mapping companies like Google and Nokia rely on users to help correct information contained in the maps. Apple is no exception. To address some of our users concerns we rely heavily on user impute to point out mistakes. We sincerely appreciate our customers who have been using the application and reporting incorrect information. 

Despite some of the rough edges in our first release, the application has laid the foundation for the best mapping application out there. I ask you to stick with us as we do our best to make the needed changes quickly. 


Please know, if our new map application is not usable for your needs, there are a variety of excellent third party maps on our App Store. If necessary for your needs, I invite you to try them out. Thank you"

 

 

Clap, Clap, Clap!

 

Helluva a preso!

 

Apple PR is on your other iPhone....

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post #272 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post


The only difference is Jobs might have called a media event. He, however, would not have apologized. Jobs might have called the product a beta out of the gate, which would have solved a lot of problems. If not, he would have said something like: 

[edit]


I wholeheartedly disagree with that. The iPhone 4 required a press release because it's a HW product and it needed a lot of explaining and comparison. That is also where they actually make money. Maps isn't just one app it's not even the app itself that is lacking.

All this is most comparable to the email Apple sent out to customers about the MobileMe debacle (now that was a debacle!). That was a service just as Apple Maps is a service.

Here is a list of Oops! from Apple. I had forgotten about most of these...

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post #273 of 444

SOT...

 

Well, this is the last day of FQ2012 and FY2012... And the iPhone 5 has been on sale for 9 days...

 

Any SWAG estimates for number sold?

 

I take 11.5 Million!

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post #274 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

SOT...

Well, this is the last day of FQ2012 and FY2012... And the iPhone 5 has been on sale for 9 days...

Any SWAG estimates for number sold?

I take 11.5 Million!

A 11.5 million in 9 days? Let's remember that MS is still falsely holding the claim for the fastest selling CE with the Kinect at 8 million units in 60 days.

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post #275 of 444
Hey New York Times,

Hi. I've been reading your stupid bullshit for a few months now, and have decided that your entire staff is a bunch of fucktards. You don't know shit about what you're writing, you don't know shit about the industry, and your writers are assholes. All they care about is destroying the bug guy, the successful guy. I guarantee that if (hmm, what companies do they praise( oh, oh, Google was a $625,000,000,000 company, you would be slamming them about every little detail that they miss like, um, their entire OS! Yeah, the unstable one. Yeah, the power hungry inefficient one. Yeah, the stupid one. Yeah, I could go on and on about the shittyness of Android, but to get the the point, you suck ass. Your reports are biased and most likely sponsored by whatever company it praises. You have no legitimate opinions, you provide know proof to show any of your stupid claims are true, and we should not be citing you and your idiotic articles on this halfway-decent forum.

Sincerely,
logandigges
logan@logandigg.es

 

 


Tim Cook using Galaxy Tabs as frisbees

 

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Tim Cook using Galaxy Tabs as frisbees

 

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post #276 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

Lol
Mobile me had launch trouble because of how ambitious it was and quickly became known for being awesome. Not a negative.

In fact, from MobileMe to iTunes, to iCloud, apple seems to "get" Internet services like few companies do.

Your so delusional that you almost sound like Tallest.
iTools was such a collosal piece of shit that Apple killed it. Then came .Mac that was so awesome that 14 whole people world-wide used it... For a few months. Then there was MobileMe, so awesome that they couldn't even give it away free.

No, mobileme didn't go on to become awesome - it became a running joke.
Apple has had it's ass handed to them repeatedly by small startups that 'get' it a lot more
Then them, so i dont know wtf your talking about.

They have all had the potential to be awesome - but Apples seething greed and need to control markets has always stood in their way.
post #277 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Hey New York Times,

 

...

 

 

you didn't even read the article; it made positive references to iTunes.
post #278 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

 

Since you are so knowledgeable on this topic, what exactly are the respective error rates of Google's map data and Apple's?

 

Oh, you have no idea? That's what I thought.

 

What is it about this topic that suddenly has everyone pretending they know what they are talking about.

Of course I know what I'm talking about. I've installed iOS 6 on my iPhone 4S. It draws battery power noticeably more when compared to iOS 5, maps don't work correctly, Siri seems faster, apps seem to execute faster, sync with iTunes does not work (I have to either delete an app, or add an app before the sync completes without error), I've HEARD that the aluminum back on the iPhone 5 scratches and Apple says that should be expected, the white iPhone 5 bleeds light (I thought they had that problem worked out a couple of years ago), I've heard WiFi has connection problems on the iPhone 5.

 

This is not pretend. The only way Apple can fix the problem is to accept the problem and fix it! Listening to apologists like you is certain death. 

post #279 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by rain View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

Lol
Mobile me had launch trouble because of how ambitious it was and quickly became known for being awesome. Not a negative.

In fact, from MobileMe to iTunes, to iCloud, apple seems to "get" Internet services like few companies do.

Your so delusional that you almost sound like Tallest.
iTools was such a collosal piece of shit that Apple killed it. Then came .Mac that was so awesome that 14 whole people world-wide used it... For a few months. Then there was MobileMe, so awesome that they couldn't even give it away free.

No, mobileme didn't go on to become awesome - it became a running joke.
Apple has had it's ass handed to them repeatedly by small startups that 'get' it a lot more
Then them, so i dont know wtf your talking about.

They have all had the potential to be awesome - but Apples seething greed and need to control markets has always stood in their way.

Hey you forgot to bash eWorld. Anyway, I had all of those services and they pretty much delivered as advertised. iDisk was a little slow but it worked and I used it. That is the feature I miss the most from the switch to iCloud. Yeah, seething greed. That is why iCloud is free.


Edited by mstone - 9/29/12 at 4:32pm

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post #280 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


I agree that calling for Forstall's head is premature at this time. But I disagree that he's the closest we have to Steve. Though I don't doubt HE thinks he's a mini-Steve. But let's face it both maps and Siri are a bit of an embarrassment. Half the time Siri doesn't work for me. And most people I know who have an iPhone spent more time trying to stump Siri and once that novelty wore off they hardly use it anymore. And the biggest 'wow' we got with Siri in iOS 6 is providing sports scores? Really? That's the best Forstall and team can do?
Personally I think the hardware teams don't get enough credit. What they did with the A6 chip and getting all that amazing technology in a thinner and lighter device blows away anything the iOS team did with iOS 6 IMO.

 

You don't have a shred of evidence that the Siri situation would have been different under Jobs, nor maps. Not a shred. It's documented in SJs bio that Steve tested it hardly a month or 2 before his death, so I'm pretty sure as Chairman of the Board he still would have had to clout to tell them to scrap it, and they would have listened. Siri is not comparable to anything else that Apple has done in the past because it's a type of technology that can never, ever be perfected, and I find it a miracle that it works as well as it does with the amount of variables that come into play with speech. For me, it gets it right 95% of the time. As for sports scores? You might not care, but a good chunk of iPhone owners I know spend half their time looking up scores on their phones, so it's something thats commonly accessed and used.

 

Maps is in the same boat as Siri, an ultra-ambitious project, that again, is nothing like Apple's ever done. It too cannot be perfected in a lab, and it can't be compared to other pieces of software Apple has developed in the past. It's mapping and organizing the world, pretty much the most complex and ambitious thing that can be done. I'd say I've personally had no issues whatsoever with maps and find it a massive upgrade in many ways, but of course I'd get labelled as an Apple apologist or something. The data no doubt needs to be improved and increased in many places in the world, but to classify the entire app as 'crap', 'garbage', an 'embarrassment', appalling' is just being sensational and disengenuous. It has a fantastic foundation, and the stuff that Apple was 100% responsible for including the vector tiles, cartography, turn by turn, iconography, integration with Siri, reviews, flyover (which still blows my mind everytime I use it) is first rate. The data, supplied by a couple dozen other companies, is less so. Apple is ultimately responsible for the results of this data, but is it fair to point to this as evidence of Apple's incompetence in development of the app? I'd say No. 

 

You bash Forstall over Siri and maps, shoving under the carpet the fact that he's also hugely responsible for EVERYTHING else iOS has to offer and the prime architect of the platform and vision. Have a bit of perspective. 


Edited by Slurpy - 9/29/12 at 4:42pm
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