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NYT: iOS Maps another internet services blunder for Apple - Page 10

post #361 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

None of the errors that I reported last weekend have been fixed, but since they are actually road mapping errors in the base map (missing county roads and new intersections) I would expect it to take some time.

For the near future I don't think Apple will be able to add any missing roads, fix incorrect intersections or modify flawed road geometry. They'll only be able to pass it on to their map providers for investigation and then correction if warranted. Apple doesn't produce it's own vector mapping and will have to wait on it's partners to deal with it which can be a slow process, sometimes years (or never) if it's a low priority report.

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post #362 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

None of the errors that I reported last weekend have been fixed, but since they are actually road mapping errors in the base map (missing county roads and new intersections) I would expect it to take some time.

For the near future I don't think Apple will be able to add any missing roads, fix incorrect intersections or modify flawed road geometry. They'll only be able to pass it on to their map providers for investigation and then correction if warranted. Apple doesn't produce it's own vector mapping and will have to wait on it's partners to deal with it which can be a slow process, sometimes years (or never) if it's a low priority report.

 

I guess it depends a bit on how much they are paying their partners for the data. I was under the impression that Apple were producing their own GIS data from a combination of sources - are they actually buying the entire product?

post #363 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

Cook's letter may be cleverly written, and is able to convey different messages to different people. But it is that kind of ambiguity which is to me, deceptive, disingenuous and typical of what I expect from corporate America. Rather than make a clear statement of Apple's position, the letter wreaks of unnecessary apology whether Cook intended a duplicitous message or not.

When preparing a letter like this, the CEO of a major corporation like Apple has to consider how it will be received by:
  • It's consumer customers
  • It's enterprise customers
  • It's reseller customers
  • It's direct sales customers
  • It's developers
  • It's partners
  • It's shareholders
  • It's competitors
  • The public in general -- with potential to become any of the above
  • The press in general

By necessity it has to be a very carefully worded statement. Otherwise, Apple would be opening up itself to lawsuits in various forms by competitors, user class actions, et cetera.

I put the press last because they're going to do what they're going to do -- to gather eyeballs or clicks.

As expected, the press has picked up the ball and run with it -- making it a headline Issue wherever they can.

However they eventually will move on to something like: "Apple sold 10 million new iPhones in nine days, despite the map fiasco..." Then the issue will slowly fade into history -- To be regurgitated every so often like antenna gate.

The key here, is for Apple to take the expected press hit -- and minimize the damage to relationships between Apple and the other parties involved.

In my experience and opinion, Tim has done an excellent job in the timing and wording of this letter!
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 9/30/12 at 12:31pm
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post #364 of 444

Muppetry, they're starting with a base map, probably TIGER data in the US, adding raw road geometry and associated data, in the US it's from TomTom primarily, and combining it with secondary GIS/parcel data, which again in the US sources from CoreData, perhaps with others.  Then there's another layer with POI's from various data sources.  It's possible there's a few other map sources for even US regions that the primary providers may be weak in, but if so I haven't yet seen those specific areas and providers ID'd. 

 

Tomtom can't simply take an error report of a missing or misaligned road and make a map change for every TT client and user without verifying the report. That often requires a physical visit to that area. Believe it or not there's map users who report bogus errors.

 

Sometimes it's someone in a neighborhood who's tired of commercial vehicles traveling thru so he/she reports that road segment closed or one-way or even non-existent. Too it's not uncommon for competitors to dishonestly report another company has closed or moved. There's been instances where someone thinks it's cool to change a road name to their family name, or worse to someone's inside joke. Then there's just folks with nothing better to do than screw around with submitting error reports just to see what happens. Then there's the poorly described or iaccidently inaccurate reports.  For that reason error reports shouldn't be acted upon right away and aren't as a rule, especially without solid on-site verification that an error really exists.


Edited by Gatorguy - 9/30/12 at 1:21pm
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post #365 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_128 View Post

Cook's letter may be cleverly written, and is able to convey different messages to different people. But it is that kind of ambiguity which is to me, deceptive, disingenuous and typical of what I expect from corporate America. Rather than make a clear statement of Apple's position, the letter wreaks of unnecessary apology whether Cook intended a duplicitous message or not.

That's because you've already made up your mind that Apple is guilty and Cook is a moron.

In reality, t was a well-written, honest, clear letter.

1. We always strive to make the best possible applications.
2. We fell short this time.
3. We are fixing it.
4. We are sorry for any inconvenience this caused you.
5. If you're not happy with our app, we'll even give you the names of some alternatives you can use while we're improving ours.

How in the world is that duplicitous, disingenuous, deceptive, or ambiguous?

 

I agree!

 

However, I liked the @TBell letter too!   It went a little farther (blaming Google, explaining the goals and problems, etc.).  I think it displays a "personalty" more like Steve's than Tim's.  I don't, necessarily, think that one letter is better than the other -- rather more a difference in style (and that Steve could get away with more, while not continuously being compared to his predecessor).

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post #366 of 444

I think the former post mentioned the Washington Monument because it was claimed to be an error in the NYT story. 

 

So, between Apple's Maps app, Google Maps, Bing Maps and Yahoo Maps the only one that tags the Washington Monument exactly is Yahoo. The rest are out at the street.

 

And, by the way, if you have a decent GPS signal (as I do) inside your house iOS 6 maps will follow you around inside your house just as iOS 5 maps do.

post #367 of 444

Ya' know...

 

I just realized that there are locations, communities and businesses that would pay good money to get their areas mapped, 3D-mapped and overlay mapped on 400 Million iOS devices...

 

...Travel agents, college campuses -- Tourist destinations like any ski resort, DisneyLand, Ft. Leavenworth, Mauna Kea, Rosatti's, the Louvre, Taos, Gilley's, Yungfraujoch, Detroit, Hammacher Schlemmer, Sindelfingen, Fargo, Bloomingdales, Pahrump, Costa Del Sol, Sparks, inside Mall of America...

 

If Apple supports 3rd-party transportation packs, they, likely, could support 3rd-part map packs/overlays on the app store...

 

There are some real opportunities here...

 

 

Edit:  Street View Shmeet View... Ski Trail View -- that's where the real money is.


Edited by Dick Applebaum - 9/30/12 at 2:28pm
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post #368 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Sometimes it's someone in a neighborhood who's tired of commercial vehicles traveling thru so he/she reports that road segment closed or one-way or even non-existent. Too it's not uncommon for competitors to dishonestly report another company has closed or moved. There's been instances where someone thinks it's cool to change a road name to their family name, or worse to someone's inside joke. Then there's just folks with nothing better to do than screw around with submitting error reports just to see what happens. Then there's the poorly described or iaccidently inaccurate reports.  For that reason error reports shouldn't be acted upon right away and aren't as a rule, especially without solid on-site verification that an error really exists.

Then there is the allegation by Open Street Maps that some people from IP addresses at Google were falsifying map changes in Open Street Maps for whatever reason. Why did that occur? It makes no sense. Open Street Maps lets approved users make changes without authorization form administrators. Is this the same Open Street Maps that form the base for Apple Maps?

 

http://opengeodata.org/google-ip-vandalizing-openstreetmap

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post #369 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Ya' know...

I just realized that there are locations, communities and businesses that would pay good money to get their areas mapped, 3D-mapped and overlay mapped on 400 Million iOS devices...

...Travel agents, college campuses -- Tourist destinations like any ski resort, DisneyLand, Ft. Leavenworth, Mauna Kea, Rosatti's, the Louvre, Taos, Gilley's, Yungfraujoch, Detroit, Hammacher Schlemmer, Sindelfingen, Fargo, Bloomingdales, Pahrump, Costa Del Sol, Sparks, inside Mall of America...

If Apple supports 3rd-party transportation packs, they, likely, could support 3rd-part map packs/overlays on the app store...

There are some real opportunities here...


Edit:  Street View Shmeet View... Ski Trail View -- that's where the real money is.

There really is a huge benefit to vendors and a huge lose to Google. Perhaps not a huge loss compared to their entire business but it's s substantial amount of money, device and money spending users that are continually having Google be able to record their data and push them ads less and less.
Edited by SolipsismX - 9/30/12 at 2:56pm

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post #370 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Out of curiosity, I've just been doing some map surfing on Apple maps.
Try as I might, I could not get Apple maps to return any location for Dome the Rock in Jerusalem. After some frustration, I finally located it on the hybrid map. Here's the good part: I used Siri to dictate the details of the problem and it was very easy to report it.
Well… On to Dubrovnik, then Paterson New Jersey.

 

 

Perhaps, it is because it is called Dome of the Rock? :O)

post #371 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Ya' know...

I just realized that there are locations, communities and businesses that would pay good money to get their areas mapped, 3D-mapped and overlay mapped on 400 Million iOS devices...

...Travel agents, college campuses -- Tourist destinations like any ski resort, DisneyLand, Ft. Leavenworth, Mauna Kea, Rosatti's, the Louvre, Taos, Gilley's, Yungfraujoch, Detroit, Hammacher Schlemmer, Sindelfingen, Fargo, Bloomingdales, Pahrump, Costa Del Sol, Sparks, inside Mall of America...

If Apple supports 3rd-party transportation packs, they, likely, could support 3rd-part map packs/overlays on the app store...

There are some real opportunities here...


Edit:  Street View Shmeet View... Ski Trail View -- that's where the real money is.

There really is a huge benefit to vendors and a huge lose to Google. Perhaps not a huge loss compared to their entire business but it's s substantial amount of money, device and money spending users that are continually having Google be able to record their data and push them ads.

Exactly! People with money to spend, who are willing to spend it and who are willing to pay for quality.... That's a pretty attractive demographic!
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post #372 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post


Why do Apple's work when we never had to for Google?
I don't suffer fools lightly.

 

 

Google has always asked for crowd feed back to correct errors.  Perhaps, you are an all for yourself type of person. Cool. Some people like to think of the world as a community where we should pitch in to help each other out to the benefit of us all. It would be impossible for a company like Google or Apple to provide the sophisticated maps they offer without crowd impute. 

post #373 of 444
WOT...

Please pray for me…. My world came crashing down yesterday… I worked for years and finally, this year, our computers and devices are Windows and Office free…

Yesterday, my grandkids Godfather gifted the boys with an HP desktop and my granddaughter with a portable of some kind...

I am just not up to supporting Windows or Office… The closest support is two hours away, when available.

Alas, woe is me!
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post #374 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Then there is the allegation by Open Street Maps that some people from IP addresses at Google were falsifying map changes in Open Street Maps for whatever reason. Why did that occur? It makes no sense. Open Street Maps lets approved users make changes without authorization form administrators. Is this the same Open Street Maps that form the base for Apple Maps?

 

http://opengeodata.org/google-ip-vandalizing-openstreetmap

 

Google has never been shy about employing these sort of underhanded tactics to sabotage competitors and them blaming it on "rogue" contractors when they get caught. Plus, it may have been "inadvertent", too. A lot of what goes on at Google is "inadvertent".

 

Remember this: http://boingboing.net/2012/01/13/google-fraudulently-solicits-f.html

post #375 of 444
Maps biggest flaw is its POI (points of interest) database. I can't find businesses I KNOW are there. Fortunately, all it takes is one check to the right company to fix this.
post #376 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

Why do Apple's work when we never had to for Google?

I don't suffer fools lightly.


Google has always asked for crowd feed back to correct errors.  Perhaps, you are an all for yourself type of person. Cool. Some people like to think of the world as a community where we should pitch in to help each other out to the benefit of us all. It would be impossible for a company like Google or Apple to provide the sophisticated maps they offer without crowd impute. 

You know, your post says a lot about a lot of things... Especially about an individual's perspective of his place and responsibilities in the world.

Well said!
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post #377 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Then there is the allegation by Open Street Maps that some people from IP addresses at Google were falsifying map changes in Open Street Maps for whatever reason. Why did that occur? It makes no sense. Open Street Maps lets approved users make changes without authorization form administrators. Is this the same Open Street Maps that form the base for Apple Maps?

 

http://opengeodata.org/google-ip-vandalizing-openstreetmap

 

Google has never been shy about employing these sort of underhanded tactics to sabotage competitors and them blaming it on "rogue" contractors when they get caught. Plus, it may have been "inadvertent", too. A lot of what goes on at Google is "inadvertent".

 

Remember this: http://boingboing.net/2012/01/13/google-fraudulently-solicits-f.html

Sure but my remarks were questioning the wisdom of Apple choosing Open Street Maps as a foundation for their service when there is an obvious security of data integrity issue using a system that lets users change the data set at their own discretion, even users from Google.

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post #378 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Then there is the allegation by Open Street Maps that some people from IP addresses at Google were falsifying map changes in Open Street Maps for whatever reason. Why did that occur? It makes no sense. Open Street Maps lets approved users make changes without authorization form administrators. Is this the same Open Street Maps that form the base for Apple Maps?

http://opengeodata.org/google-ip-vandalizing-openstreetmap

Google has never been shy about employing these sort of underhanded tactics to sabotage competitors and them blaming it on "rogue" contractors when they get caught. Plus, it may have been "inadvertent", too. A lot of what goes on at Google is "inadvertent".

Remember this: http://boingboing.net/2012/01/13/google-fraudulently-solicits-f.html
Sure but my remarks were questioning the wisdom of Apple choosing Open Street Maps as a foundation for their service when there is an obvious security of data integrity issue using a system that lets users change the data set at their own discretion, even users from Google.

I wonder, if Apple is using OSM data… Or just the OSM format to generate maps from TomTom (and others) data. If they are using OSM data, I hope they are validating it against their other data sources.

This is beginning to get scary. Google appears to have some organizational problems and ethical standards problems -- There certainly seem to be a lot of inadvertent mistakes made by their employees or contractors.

Edit: I am encouraged however, by remembering that the Apollo mission that landed Astronuts on the Moon, was guided by an IBM suitcase computer. This computer provided real-time guidance while in space. It was actually three computers in one… And each computer calculated the guidance information separately. When there was an anomaly in the results, they voted on the answer.

Based on this success it should be possible to generate valid maps from disparate data sources.
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 9/30/12 at 3:48pm
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post #379 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


I wonder, if Apple is using OSM data… Or just the OSM format to generate maps from TomTom (and others) data. If they are using OSM data, I hope they are validating it against their other data sources.

As an educated guess, I think Apple would use OpenStreetMaps to "fill in the blanks" for bikers, hikers, park visitors and other pedestrians. While Tomtom has a very good map of routable roads for vehicles, pedestrian traffic isn't a strong point of theirs. OSM has more data available for those users walking or biking.

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post #380 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

You know, your post says a lot about a lot of things... Especially about an individual's perspective of his place and responsibilities in the world.
Well said!

I'm not responsible for Apple's Maps- Apple is!
Geesh!
post #381 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post
Edit: I am encouraged however, by remembering that the Apollo mission that landed Astronuts on the Moon, was guided by an IBM suitcase computer. This computer provided real-time guidance while in space. It was actually three computers in one… And each computer calculated the guidance information separately. When there was an anomaly in the results, they voted on the answer.
Based on this success it should be possible to generate valid maps from disparate data sources.

Of course it is. That's what digital mapmakers do!

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post #382 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

Use FlyOver if your city is covered.
You can actually zoom to street levels.  It's more consistent than street view.

As a frequent traveller to Washington DC with all its circles and crossed diagonal streets, StreetView was indispensable. There is no substitute.
post #383 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

That makes a big assumption that Steve Jobs and others at Apple weren't cognizant that Android could become problematic and a competitor at some future point. I'm of the opinion Apple knew exactly who they were getting in bed with and were using Google to Apple's benefit as long as they could, but realized at some point they'd need to go. That point perhaps just came a lot faster than Apple may have projected.

 

Maybe Mr. Jobs even felt he could better control or at the least strongly influence Google's plans by partnering with them, making it more beneficial to play along for the moment than compete. I personally believe Steve Jobs was fully aware of Android's potential but hoped to slow things down by making it worth Google's while to do as he asked. The insult came when they did not do as he said. That made it time to start breaking the partnership.

 

Personally I give Mr Jobs and Apple's executive team a lot more credit for reading the market and identifying tech and wouldn't for even a moment suggest they were so clueless and ignorant as to not know what Google was working on or it's potential. IMO if they were blindsided by anything it was the speed of Android's uptake, not that Android became a competitor.

Spoken like a true mole.. rationalize much? Even when weasels try to disguise themselves, you can still smell them for what they are..

   

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post #384 of 444

The word 'Internet' is capitalized. The subject of this article reads, 'NYT: iOS Maps another internet services blunder for Apple.'

Perhaps it should read, 'internet, another spelling blunder for AppleInsider.'

 

Speaking of correcting yourself, I wish you'd revert to your simpler layout. Yours now is too busy, too difficult to read quickly.

post #385 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

You know, your post says a lot about a lot of things... Especially about an individual's perspective of his place and responsibilities in the world.
Well said!

I'm not responsible for Apple's Maps- Apple is!
Geesh!

Didn't say you were...
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post #386 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Didn't say you were...

Right- you just inferred it. Very different .
post #387 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post


Right- you just inferred it. Very different .

 

That doesn't mean what you think it does.

post #388 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Didn't say you were...

Right- you just inferred it. Very different .

To your mind, I implied it... But, you are the one who inferred it.

As the original responder said... If that's the way you roll, cool!
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post #389 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

That doesn't mean what you think it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

To your mind, I implied it... But, you are the one who inferred it.
As the original responder said... If that's the way you roll, cool!

My this discussion really has helped this thread by showing my failing with the vocabu-checker. Bazinga!
post #390 of 444
WOT...

Anyone here have experience with a mixed OS X Windows 7 WiFi network?

Should I be concerned about a Windows virus contaminating the network and possibly destroying data on Macs or external Mac HDDs -- Thunderbolt, USB and FireWire?

Or can I be assured that any exposure is limited to the Windows boxes?

I have absolutely no time or desire to admin Windows boxes!

TIA
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post #391 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

As a frequent traveller to Washington DC with all its circles and crossed diagonal streets, StreetView was indispensable. There is no substitute.

Sorry, but if you're a frequent traveler to DC and can't find your way around with a map, then you need more help than this forum can give you.


If you can read a map, Streetview doesn't add much (nor does Flyover).
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post #392 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Sorry, but if you're a frequent traveler to DC and can't find your way around with a map, then you need more help than this forum can give you.
If you can read a map, Streetview doesn't add much (nor does Flyover).

Excuse me, I didn't need a map with StreetView- that's its whole point!
Do you want me to add and subtract with an abacus too?
post #393 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Sorry, but if you're a frequent traveler to DC and can't find your way around with a map, then you need more help than this forum can give you.
If you can read a map, Streetview doesn't add much (nor does Flyover).

Excuse me, I didn't need a map with StreetView- that's its whole point!
Do you want me to add and subtract with an abacus too?

I don't know you, but you appear to me to have a very negative attitude...

Is there something bothering you?

It is very depressing to try to engage a conversation...

What can I do?
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post #394 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post


Excuse me, I didn't need a map with StreetView- that's its whole point!
Do you want me to add and subtract with an abacus too?

 

Jesus Christ. How did you get around before you required photographs of every single potential step of your environment? I mean, really? You need Streetview to  regularly 'get around'? Why? How the hell is streetview a substitute for a map? If you need to get from point A to point B, do you click on the arrows a thousand times to go through all the photos then memorize the path? Also, how often do you think Google is going to re-drive cars around every street on the planet? The main problem with streetview is that there's no way in hell Google is going to update it with any kind of regularity. That means very soon, as businesses close/open etc, it's going to be extremely out of date. At least its PLAUSIBLE that flyover can get updated, as mapping an area from a plane in 3D is a hell of alot faster than driving around every street again. I've used streetview as a novelty a few times, it's neat, but there's something wrong with you if you depend on it. Seriously, just switch to another platform if it bothers you that much, or pay 99 CENTS for the streetview app. I'ts NEVER going to be integrated into the default maps app, so whats the point of all your bitching and whining? Are you too cheap to pay a dollar for a feature that apparently is so critical to you? I'll paypal it to you if it will stop your incessant whining about streetview. 


Edited by Slurpy - 9/30/12 at 8:14pm
post #395 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

 

 

The iTunes store is an Internet-based service, is it not?

And your point is? .......  TOTALLY unrelated to the OP.

post #396 of 444
Originally Posted by ernysp76 View Post
And your point is? .......  TOTALLY unrelated to the OP.

 

… No, really, you need to read the title of the article.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply
post #397 of 444
Here's an interesting read:

Apple’s Map Mess Won’t Slow iPhone Sales

http://allthingsd.com/20121001/apples-map-mess-wont-slow-iphone-sales/
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
Reply
post #398 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by ernysp76 View Post

And your point is? .......  TOTALLY unrelated to the OP.

 

The NYT article explicitly stated that the new maps App was indicative of a general failure of Apple to manage Internet services.

 

The fact is they set up and run iTunes the most successful ONLINE music and other digital content store ever seen, they have been running it day in, day out 24/7, 365 days a year for almost ten years, serving hundreds of millions of customers billions of purchases and the NYT  shows it's inherent bias by overlooking this "Internet service".

 

It's there in black and white in the title of this thread,

 

 

NYT: iOS Maps another internet services blunder for Apple

Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
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post #399 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon View Post

Excuse me, I didn't need a map with StreetView- that's its whole point!
Do you want me to add and subtract with an abacus too?

Wait a second. In post #384, you said:
"As a frequent traveller to Washington DC with all its circles and crossed diagonal streets, StreetView was indispensable. There is no substitute."

So it is indispensable or do you not need it? Please make up your mind.

We really need smarter trolls around here......
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #400 of 444
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

ONLINE

internet

 

Perhaps he doesn't understand the correlation between these words.

 

Originally Posted by jragosta View Post
We really need smarter trolls around here......
 

Isn't that an oxymoron? I'd prefer no trolls. 

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply
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