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NYT: iOS Maps another internet services blunder for Apple - Page 2

post #41 of 444
Criticism of Apple may be overboard but substantial criticism is due. iOS 6 maps and other problems are worthy of criticism. My concern is this is symptomatic of problems generally at Apple, obvious flaws like we've witnessed with iOS 6 and apps, and scratching of the aluminum in the iPhone 5 should never have made it out the door and certainly not made it past user testing.

QC is lacking, and is underappreciated at Apple now. Cook and clan, being spreadsheet guys, are likely competent in and concerned only with what they know -- the financials. Cook and clan would likely be quite adequate in companies like Pepsi and Coke, maybe even great. But at Apple, they are dooming the company to mediocrity in record time. Cook is a Sculley look-alike.

Good thing I bought Apple at 60. I fully expect Apple's stock and sales to drop significantly in the coming months unless Cook and clan realize they don't have a clue.

Apple cannot apologize or advertise their way out of this; the shine is off this apple now.
post #42 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifij775 View Post

Am I the only one who thinks the NYT's version of journalism consists of kicking a man when he's down. I have to roll my eyes with each new "unnamed source"

 

Sadly, the NYT's Tech journalism has always been mediocre. It only got worse when the basically turned their Tech section into a blog. And, they went decidedly anti-Apple after Gizmodo stole the iPhone 4 prototype.

post #43 of 444

If Apple decides it really has mapping problems, they should just BUY Nokia which also owns Navtaq. Nokia's total net-worth is only $10 billion and the Navteq portion of that is estimated to be $1 billion.

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post #44 of 444
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Originally Posted by RichL View Post


I think that's only going to happen if Apple releases a web-based version of their mapping app. There's a lot of iOS users but there's significantly more web users. That's important for a service that relies on crowding-sourcing.

 

Even if they did release a web version, it would probably be an iCloud feature, which means iOS & OS X users only. Apple only seems interested in ads as a way for developers to release ad supported software, so it's hard to see them offering a free to everyone, ad supported, web version. Still that's a large and growing number of users.

post #45 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

Criticism of Apple may be overboard but substantial criticism is due. iOS 6 maps and other problems are worthy of criticism.

I'm still waiting for one shred of legitimate evidence that Apple's Maps are significantly worse than Google's Maps.

NYT is doing what everyone else seems to be doing. Someone starts a rumor that there's a problem and everyone accepts it as fact. Then Google reinforces the rumor with an ad based on the fact that Apple's Maps is somehow inferior because it won't find a hand-selected, imaginary address.

The only one who even tried a side-by-side comparison is (surprisingly) Consumer Reports which found that Apple's Maps was as good as Google's Maps when it came to finding an address.

So please show me the FACTS (not oft-repated opinions or anecdotes) that "substantial criticism is due".
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post #46 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

Criticism of Apple may be overboard but substantial criticism is due. iOS 6 maps and other problems are worthy of criticism. ...

 

Since you are so knowledgeable on this topic, what exactly are the respective error rates of Google's map data and Apple's?

 

Oh, you have no idea? That's what I thought.

 

What is it about this topic that suddenly has everyone pretending they know what they are talking about.

post #47 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Why do you think Google wants to hurt Apple? What are the benefits of doing so?

What the what?! You think Google is so altruistic that they'd help Apple make money at their expense? Come on!!! Google, just like Apple, just like MS, just like every reasonable company on Earth will maneuver itself to make its products look more successful in comparison to a competitor.

In this case, there is much to weigh in regards to Google releasing a native app on the App Store if it helps Apple's platform look more attractive during the interim of their Apple Maps growing pains period. Google will weigh this against the profit they can gain from map searches, the cost for creating the app, the number of users they might get to use the web app on iDevices, and number of people that might not update to iOS 6 or even jump to Android or not buy an iDevice in their determination of how to proceed.

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post #48 of 444

The NYT apparently isn't aware of consumer satisfaction reports that place Apple gear at the very top year after year. 

 

Apple gear runs Apple's "internet services", including the big headliners, iTunes and iCloud. Both of which are currently unmatched in the industry. 

 

Something's up, because the industry is reeling from iPhone-mania, and competitors just can't get a leg up when it comes to mindshare. It's usually around the time of Apple's big product launches that we get media spin. The more successful Apple is, the more the pot is stirred. 

 

It's interesting that the biggest sword opponents can wield in this area is Ping, and now, a maps app. One service was an experiment that never really mattered (it was a minor iTunes feature), while the other one is the product of Apple severing ties with Google, which is in everyone's best interest long-term. 


Edited by Quadra 610 - 9/29/12 at 6:11am
post #49 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Why do you think Google wants to hurt Apple? What are the benefits of doing so?

 

You might as well be asking, why does Google try to destroy the competition in every market they enter?

 

Because, for Google to be successful, they have to eliminate alternatives to add based content and services, or such is their belief and overall business strategy for years now.

 

Because Google wants to control access to all information, so everyone has to go through them, so they know everything about everyone.

 

Because Page is a psychopathic megalomaniac mentored by the utterly devoid of all morals Schmidt.

 

It doesn't even have to be rational when the people running the company have a Pinky and the Brain mentality.

post #50 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


Thanks for the link. The Navteq system seems to be the road based equivalent (with more bells and whistles) to the SAAB flight based recording system, they would fit together like a hand in a glove! I hope Apple is either licensing this or buying this company!

 

Nokia owns NavTeq, they form the basis of both Nokia and Bing maps.

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post #51 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I'm still waiting for one shred of legitimate evidence that Apple's Maps are significantly worse than Google's Maps.

Have you tried doing the analysis yourself? Can you prove that Apple Maps isn't significantly worse than Google Maps?

Should be fairly easy to do a meta-analysis via Google though.
post #52 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Why do you think Google wants to hurt Apple? What are the benefits of doing so?

Why did they release an ad snubbing Apple Maps? To promote Android phones by Motorola of course?

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post #53 of 444

It took Google seven years to find my address, and then they got it wrong the first two times.

post #54 of 444
They are comparing the 1.0 version of the iPhone to the iOS 6 version, assuming that the same thing happened. It didn't, the new maps were announced at WWDC some time ago.
post #55 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I'm still waiting for one shred of legitimate evidence that Apple's Maps are significantly worse than Google's Maps.
NYT is doing what everyone else seems to be doing. Someone starts a rumor that there's a problem and everyone accepts it as fact. Then Google reinforces the rumor with an ad based on the fact that Apple's Maps is somehow inferior because it won't find a hand-selected, imaginary address.
The only one who even tried a side-by-side comparison is (surprisingly) Consumer Reports which found that Apple's Maps was as good as Google's Maps when it came to finding an address.
So please show me the FACTS (not oft-repated opinions or anecdotes) that "substantial criticism is due".

Apple Maps is no different than our complaints of WnPh7, Android, Windows, etc. It's often just opinions. Even if they are backed up with valid and reasonable factual examples it's still one's opinion that the end result is inferior. And it's oft not glaring or egregious issues but a collection of small issues.

Take WinPh7/8, for example. I think it's a brilliant mobile OS. It's modern and unique. it's taking the good aspects of iOS without stealing from iOS like some other companies have. MS has even gotten the WinNT kernel used for WInPh8 just as they use fro their desktop and server OS products. I think that's big!

That said, it's still in no way good enough in the OS, the HW they sell on (and I quite like the Lumia HW), and the ecosystem for it to be a suitable replacement for my iPhone. These are my opinions of which I can back up with plenty of facts and if it was released as is when iOS was in version 2 or so I think Apple would have a fight on its hand for the most mindshare and best app ecosystem (developers and number of apps) with Android being only on cheap feature phones with Samsung being a huge WinPh vendor.

But those extra years have made a huge difference. Google has the clear advantage even though Apple Maps has some great aspects and huge potential. In a year this could all but be forgotten just as the first year of the iPhone with web apps as Apple was still developing the iOS development environment, and the first years of the iPhone where there was no Adobe Flash so it couldn't run "the full internet" which we should now call "the full of it internet."

In fact, I've been very vocal about what I thought would happen with iOS 6 Maps if Apple didn't certain things resolved before launch. It's 1.5 weeks since iOS 6 was released and everything I stated has come true. However, I think it'll be less of a longterm issue than the whole Adobe Flash thing ever was.

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post #56 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post


Have you tried doing the analysis yourself? Can you prove that Apple Maps isn't significantly worse than Google Maps?
Should be fairly easy to do a meta-analysis via Google though.

 

So do it and report your results back here. You are the one making the claims. Back them up or admit that you have no idea what you are talking about.

post #57 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Have you tried doing the analysis yourself? Can you prove that Apple Maps isn't significantly worse than Google Maps?
Should be fairly easy to do a meta-analysis via Google though.

I only have my experience to go from. I'm not concerned with meta-analysis. So far my experience has been that Apple maps has been pretty good. Turn by turn navigation and basically the same features without Street view makes Apple's map product a win for me.

I thought I would miss SigAlert features, but that is not a dealbreaker for me. It has some more accurate information about traffic though, even without the pretty colors.

I travel extensively in the SF BA and haven't had a grossly missed address yet. Google maps was usually off by one or two places, too.

In my final analysis, iOS maps is just fine. No problem here. Move along.
post #58 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

... But those extra years have made a huge difference. Google has the clear advantage even though Apple Maps has some great aspects and huge potential. ...

 

Does it? Again, what are the respective error rates in the data? Or, is a lot, maybe most, of this just that people are used to Google Maps, and people like what they are used to and don't like change?

post #59 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Have you tried doing the analysis yourself? Can you prove that Apple Maps isn't significantly worse than Google Maps?
Should be fairly easy to do a meta-analysis via Google though.

I'm not the one making the claim that Apple's Maps are inferior. The people making that claim have the burden of proof.

But, if you wish, I used Apple Maps to find 5 addresses. Each one gave me the same location as Google Maps. Therefore, my 'analysis' is that Apple Maps is perfect.

Prove me wrong.
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post #60 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Google has the clear advantage even though Apple Maps has some great aspects and huge potential. In a year this could all but be forgotten just as the first year of the iPhone with web apps as Apple was still developing the iOS development environment, and the first years of the iPhone where there was no Adobe Flash so it couldn't run "the full internet" which we should now call "the full of it internet."
In fact, I've been very vocal about what I thought would happen with iOS 6 Maps if Apple didn't certain things resolved before launch. It's 1.5 weeks since iOS 6 was released and everything I stated has come true. However, I think it'll be less of a longterm issue than the whole Adobe Flash thing ever was.

Please tell us how Google's maps is so much better than iOS apps is now. Because other than Streetview I'm not seeing it. Even then Streetview was a pain in the ass to use on iOS 5 and lower anyway. So it doesn't really matter as far as I'm concerned. But that's just me.
post #61 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psych_guy View Post


I only have my experience to go from. I'm not concerned with meta-analysis. So far my experience has been that Apple maps has been pretty good. Turn by turn navigation and basically the same features without Street view makes Apple's map product a win for me.
I thought I would miss SigAlert features, but that is not a dealbreaker for me. It has some more accurate information about traffic though, even without the pretty colors.
I travel extensively in the SF BA and haven't had a grossly missed address yet. Google maps was usually off by one or two places, too.
In my final analysis, iOS maps is just fine. No problem here. Move along.

 

And, this is the proper comparison, Apple Maps on iOS vs Google Maps on iOS, not Apple Maps against features that were never going to come using Google Maps on iOS.

post #62 of 444

ok so when do journalist have enough of this Maps shortcomings of Apple? The CEO issued a public apology already and promised to rectify the issue, why not give it a rest for Christsake!

 

Turn your attention to Romney's balls if you don't have other newsworthy items to report. How about "Romney had strapped his nuts atop the roof of his car and drove with it for 12 hours". Now that's news!

post #63 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Google would need nothing sinister in their app to track users. Once you submit the location to Google they can simply gather all that on the back end.
I have only heard rumours of Google having an app ready, which was followed by rumours that Google doesn't have an app ready. There are several reasons Google might not want an app. 1) There app might just be shit so it will just weaken the way the masses feel right now. 2) They have had web-based maps for a long time now and will even have StreetView in them shortly. 3) Anything to helps make Apple Maps look like less of an issue for iDevice users hurts Google so they might simply hold off for now.

 

Then there's 4) Google would be providing their map data directly to users, Apple would not be acting as a middleman and licensing it.

 

iOS users will no longer be subsidising the Android version with more features unless they choose to download a Google provided App, Google will have to find other ways to monetize it.

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post #64 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post

Criticism of Apple may be overboard but substantial criticism is due. iOS 6 maps and other problems are worthy of criticism. My concern is this is symptomatic of problems generally at Apple, obvious flaws like we've witnessed with iOS 6 and apps, and scratching of the aluminum in the iPhone 5 should never have made it out the door and certainly not made it past user testing.
QC is lacking, and is underappreciated at Apple now. Cook and clan, being spreadsheet guys, are likely competent in and concerned only with what they know -- the financials. Cook and clan would likely be quite adequate in companies like Pepsi and Coke, maybe even great. But at Apple, they are dooming the company to mediocrity in record time. Cook is a Sculley look-alike.
Good thing I bought Apple at 60. I fully expect Apple's stock and sales to drop significantly in the coming months unless Cook and clan realize they don't have a clue.
Apple cannot apologize or advertise their way out of this; the shine is off this apple now.

You are mistaken on just about every comment you made. Sure Apple is not above criticism, but to suggest that hat they deserve "substantial" criticism starts to wreak of typical iHater rhetoric. Just how many of the 5 million ip[hones last week were scratched? forbes reported a few dozen... It was a small isolated instance that I am sure was addressed and rectified promptly. QC at Apple is not lacking, they are the top of consumer satisfaction surveys and will continue to hold that position for a long time to come. Cook and Clan? what the hell is that supposed to mean? You sound like a troll, and an iHater, or maybe just a typical droid dork by the tone of your post. 

Apple are doomed to mediocrity huh? Is that what their sales numbers and satisfaction surveys say? Guess again, iThink you need to step back and take a deep breathe before you post such ridiculous ill-informed comments again.

 

By the way, Apple is shining like never before and it keeps getting brighter. We all wish Steve Jobs was still here to enjoy the wonderful devices and products Apple are introducing, If he were here I am sure he would be smiling knowing that Apple are diminishing  goofles presence on their awesome iDevices.

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post #65 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psych_guy View Post


Please tell us how Google's maps is so much better than iOS apps is now. Because other than Streetview I'm not seeing it. Even then Streetview was a pain in the ass to use on iOS 5 and lower anyway. So it doesn't really matter as far as I'm concerned. But that's just me.

The two major features I used Google Maps on iOS for was their excellent aerial views and transit schedules. I can still use both of those features in the web version so it is no big deal.

 

Obviously Apple maps lacks both of those things. Their imagery is vastly inferior. I'm not sure about the transit schedules from a possible third party as I have not looked further into the matter. I did however notice that even the Apple Retail Store in my area was incorrectly mapped to their old location from a few years ago. You would think if it was truly ready for launch they would have at least verified that their own stores were correctly mapped.

 

I have navigation built into my autos so I didn't need that feature.

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post #66 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post


Have you tried doing the analysis yourself? Can you prove that Apple Maps isn't significantly worse than Google Maps?
Should be fairly easy to do a meta-analysis via Google though.

I have, and Apple maps and bing maps are more accurate, I have posted evidence of it in other threads. O fcourse I am jsut a small samplle but the fact remains, goofle is wrong and the other maps are right. 

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post #67 of 444

The New York Times?!  Nobody reads that rag anymore.

post #68 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psych_guy View Post

Please tell us how Google's maps is so much better than iOS apps is now. Because other than Streetview I'm not seeing it. Even then Streetview was a pain in the ass to use on iOS 5 and lower anyway. So it doesn't really matter as far as I'm concerned. But that's just me.

Really? This has been in the news since the first reviews broke a week ago last Tuesday(?) and you can only recall hearing about Street View? You've seen nothing about buildings on campuses or complete neighborhood data? How about there being no web-based version of Apple Maps? How in the hell can anyone claim that Google has no advantage over Apple mapping when Apple doesn't even have a web-based mapping presence?

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post #69 of 444
They really need to appoint a manager for every country/reign of the world so that they can guarantee everything is correct. If they had such a manager reviewing the map of the UK it wouldn't take them long to realise that the mapping data is not ready yet. It's not just a few things either, it's about 40% wrong and is embarrassing. They don't even seem to know what the primary routes are in the UK.

They also need to add the UK road colour system as it's a very difficult to tell what is a Motorway and what is a just an A road. Motorways have very different regulations and restrictions to primary A-roads which is why they are clearly marked as blue lines, primary A roads are green normal A and B roads are yellow and minor routes are white. It's not a trial matter we need to know what the main routes are!
post #70 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifij775 View Post

Am I the only one who thinks the NYT's version of journalism consists of kicking a man when he's down. I have to roll my eyes with each new "unnamed source"

No, you aren't the only one. Someone high up at the New York Times clearly doesn't like Apple. For at least the past year, they have timed negative articles to appear right around product launches and earnings releases (e.g. the exposés on working conditions, hyping up the Broadway play that turned out to be a fabrication).

post #71 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Really? This has been in the news since the first reviews broke a week ago last Tuesday(?) and you can only recall hearing about Street View? You've seen nothing about buildings on campuses or complete neighborhood data? How about there being no web-based version of Apple Maps? How in the hell can anyone claim that Google has no advantage over Apple mapping when Apple doesn't even have a web-based mapping presence?

 

So, exactly how big is Google's advantage? Quantify it. Globally. Otherwise, all we have are anecdotal tales about this and that. If one is going to claim that Google's maps are "so much better", I think one ought to quantify "so much". Otherwise, how do we know "so much" isn't "a little" or even "sometimes better, sometimes worse, depending on the data one looks at"?

 

Remember, the so called "antennagate" issue was "in the news" following the iPhone 4 launch and turned out to not to be such a big deal after all.

post #72 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

So, exactly how big is Google's advantage? Quantify it. Globally. Otherwise, all we have are anecdotal tales about this and that. If one is going to claim that Google's maps are "so much better", I think one ought to quantify "so much". Otherwise, how do we know "so much" isn't "a little" or even "sometimes better, sometimes worse, depending on the data one looks at"?

Do you think Mac OS X is better than Windows? If so, then quantify it? See how stupid that request is? I can judge better and worse between two things without having to generate an spreadsheet that shows the exact quantity of its difference.

You want some quantification? Based on a scale from 0 to 1:

Has a street level view: Google = 1, Apple = 0
Has web presence: Google = 1, Apple = 0

There you go: 2 to 0.


Let's reverse the scenario. Lets say that Apple has had the mapping for years and Google has recently gotten into it just last week replaced their Android Maps app using the Apple Maps back-end with their own. Now lets say that you see that when you share a link it will still open up in Apple Maps on the web because Google has no web presence for their maps. Are you going to say that you'd not call out Google for still relying on Apple and not point out that Google's mapping simple isn't a complete? Of course you would!
Edited by SolipsismX - 9/29/12 at 7:09am

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post #73 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


How in the hell can anyone claim that Google has no advantage over Apple mapping when Apple doesn't even have a web-based mapping presence?

What does the lack of a web-based mapping service have to do with this?

post #74 of 444
What a joke.
But when that maps gets up and running it will be amazing. Besides Google is using info form the united states government. This is such a non issues .
post #75 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Do you think Mac OS X is better than Windows? If so, then quantify it? See how stupid that request is? I can judge better and worse between two things without having to generate an spreadsheet that shows the exact quantity of its difference.
You want some quantification? Based on a scale from 0 to 1:
Has a street level view: Google = 1, Apple = 0
Has web presence: Google = 1, Apple = 0

There you go: 2 to 0.

sells your information to highest bidder 

google = 1, Apple = 0

 

has the roads mislabeled and addresses incorrectly place by 1000 feet in my neighborhood

google = 1, Apple = 0

 

thats 4 - 0 !!! what a dubious record

 

keep going, i like this....


Edited by RogueDogRandy - 9/29/12 at 7:13am

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post #76 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmatic View Post

What does the lack of a web-based mapping service have to do with this?

What do web-based maps have to do with using maps on the web? That's what you're asking?

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post #77 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Do you think Mac OS X is better than Windows? If so, then quantify it? See how stupid that request is? I can judge better and worse between two things without having to generate an spreadsheet that shows the exact quantity of its difference.
You want some quantification? Based on a scale from 0 to 1:
Has a street level view: Google = 1, Apple = 0
Has web presence: Google = 1, Apple = 0

There you go: 2 to 0.

 

If I told you OS X is "so much" better than Windows, you should ask me to quantify it.

 

  • Has turn by turn directions: Apple = 1, Google = 0 (Google didn't offer this on iOS)
  • Has flyover view, Apple = 1, Google = 0

 

There you go: 2 to 2

 

So, using your logic they are equal.

 

But, you're dodging the question. The question was about the quality of the mapping data, not feature parity.

post #78 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Have you tried doing the analysis yourself? Can you prove that Apple Maps isn't significantly worse than Google Maps?
Should be fairly easy to do a meta-analysis via Google though.

I'm not the one making the claim that Apple's Maps are inferior. The people making that claim have the burden of proof.

But, if you wish, I used Apple Maps to find 5 addresses. Each one gave me the same location as Google Maps. Therefore, my 'analysis' is that Apple Maps is perfect.

Prove me wrong.

 

I'm really not sure that the "prove it or you are wrong" argument adds very much to the discussion.

 

iOS maps is being compared to the de facto existing standard(s), and while it is very difficult to make a broad quantitative comparison, that does not invalidate sharing examples and comparing notes. Even ignoring stuff like flyover v. streetview, which is partly personal preference, it seems likely that a lot of hot air is being blown about how terrible iOS maps are, but on the other hand, numerous actual examples have been produced that show old and incomplete data. There is really not much more that anyone can do except compare individual instances, but if the counter-argument, that Google's data also has plenty of errors, is correct, then there should be ample evidence in the form of examples that iOS gets correct and Google gets wrong. I haven't found any such cases in my area, and I've looked quite extensively so that I could report errors in the iOS maps, but others may have excellent examples where iOS maps are better. I'd like to hear about those for balance.

post #79 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

If I told you OS X is "so much" better than Windows, you should ask me to quantify it.
  • Has turn by turn directions: Apple = 1, Google = 0 (Google didn't offer this on iOS)
  • Has flyover view, Apple = 1, Google = 0

There you go: 2 to 2

So, using your logic they are equal.

And you're well within your right to ignore features that don't matter to you when you create your opinion and how it's a benefit or detriment to your needs. I've clearly said what features I miss but that I'm glad Apple has made the move for the common reasons stated in every fucking thread.

You can, as I have, make a rational and informed decision as to why you are willing to forego certain features in favour of other features but it is pathetic to take a feature you once expected in a maps app or enjoyed and go all sour grapes on it simply because it's no longer part of the package.
Quote:
But, you're dodging the question. The question was about the quality of the mapping data, not feature parity.

No, the issue is about the entity of Apple's mapping service, which includes every aspect of its usability.

PS: You still haven't quantified in the way you think is "reasonable" why OS X is better or worse than Windows.

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post #80 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


What do web-based maps have to do with using maps on the web? That's what you're asking?

What does the lack of a web-based mapping service have to do with the iOS 6 Maps "blunder"?

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