NYT: iOS Maps another internet services blunder for Apple - Page 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

 

I'm really not sure that the "prove it or you are wrong" argument adds very much to the discussion.

 

iOS maps is being compared to the de facto existing standard(s), and while it is very difficult to make a broad quantitative comparison, that does not invalidate sharing examples and comparing notes. Even ignoring stuff like flyover v. streetview, which is partly personal preference, it seems likely that a lot of hot air is being blown about how terrible iOS maps are, but on the other hand, numerous actual examples have been produced that show old and incomplete data. There is really not much more that anyone can do except compare individual instances, but if the counter-argument, that Google's data also has plenty of errors, is correct, then there should be ample evidence in the form of examples that iOS gets correct and Google gets wrong. I haven't found any such cases in my area, and I've looked quite extensively so that I could report errors in the iOS maps, but others may have excellent examples where iOS maps are better. I'd like to hear about those for balance.

Perhaps, but you have to consider that Google spent months poring over the Apple Maps betas to find errors. Google's iLost ad, knowingly misleading as it was, is evidence of that. It's also pretty clear that Google is feeding a stream of other errors they found to media outlets and astroturfers. So, in other words, the conversation is more than a bit one-sided, and manipulated by one interested party. They've been fairly effective at creating an impression that Apple Maps has a higher error rate than Google Maps, but there's no real evidence available to support that, just anecdotes.

I think it's a fair question for people claiming that Google Maps is "so much better", to ask them to back up that assertion based on the actual map data error rates, which is what this controversy is abou, not feature parityt, or admit that they don't really have the evidence to support it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolipsismX 


And you're well within your right to ignore features that don't matter to you when you create your opinion and how it's a benefit or detriment to your needs. I've clearly said what features I miss but that I'm glad Apple has made the move for the common reasons stated in every fucking thread.
You can, as I have, make a rational and informed decision as to why you are willing to forego certain features in favour of other features but it is pathetic to take a feature you once expected in a maps app or enjoyed and go all sour grapes on it simply because it's no longer part of the package.
No, the issue is about the entity of Apple's mapping service, which includes every aspect of its usability.
 

So, you admit that you are expressing an entirely subjective opinion. That's fine, as long as you are clear about that. So, if you say, "I like Google Maps better because..." no one will argue with you. You're entitled to like what you like. But, if you present your statements in terms of objective fact, you'd better be ready to back them up with evidence.

That was your statement introduced into the conversation, not mine.

Apple apparently had modified it's description of Maps in the last 24 hours.

http://idaily.de/wp-content/uploads//2012/09/maps_no_longer_powerful.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by anonymouse 

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

 

I'm really not sure that the "prove it or you are wrong" argument adds very much to the discussion.

 

iOS maps is being compared to the de facto existing standard(s), and while it is very difficult to make a broad quantitative comparison, that does not invalidate sharing examples and comparing notes. Even ignoring stuff like flyover v. streetview, which is partly personal preference, it seems likely that a lot of hot air is being blown about how terrible iOS maps are, but on the other hand, numerous actual examples have been produced that show old and incomplete data. There is really not much more that anyone can do except compare individual instances, but if the counter-argument, that Google's data also has plenty of errors, is correct, then there should be ample evidence in the form of examples that iOS gets correct and Google gets wrong. I haven't found any such cases in my area, and I've looked quite extensively so that I could report errors in the iOS maps, but others may have excellent examples where iOS maps are better. I'd like to hear about those for balance.

 

Perhaps, but you have to consider that Google spent months poring over the Apple Maps betas to find errors. Google's iLost ad, knowingly misleading as it was, is evidence of that. It's also pretty clear that Google is feeding a stream of other errors they found to media outlets and astroturfers. So, in other words, the conversation is more than a bit one-sided, and manipulated by one interested party. They've been fairly effective at creating an impression that Apple Maps has a higher error rate than Google Maps, but there's no real evidence available to support that, just anecdotes.

 

I think it's a fair question for people claiming that Google Maps is "so much better", to ask them to back up that assertion based on the actual map data error rates, which is what this controversy is abou, not feature parityt, or admit that they don't really have the evidence to support it.

Agree completely about Google's role in this. On the other hand, I don't think anyone, on their own, is going to generate enough examples to produce useable error rates outside limited locales, which means we have little choice but to listen to the crowd reaction and try to separate the data from the noise.

And then there is always the concern that we are hearing disproportionately from those who are dissatisfied. I have no idea whether the comparisons that I see locally can be extrapolated to elsewhere. It does not seem unreasonable that the iOS database, being much newer, might be less extensive and have undergone less scrubbing and error correction than the Google database, but I have no way to know, and nor does that seem like a good reason to criticize Apple. If crowd-sourced information really is important in generating high-quality data in this kind of application, then they had no option but to release in this form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolipsismX 


The iOS 6 Maps app is very good. Much better than their previous Maps app but the blunder, as you put it, is with the back end and it being a complete service. Do you honestly not realize how Apple Maps works? Do you not understand that when you call a location it's querying a server?

I didn't call it a blunder.  I was merely quoting the headline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogifan 

The quote at the end of this article from a former employee Referring to Apple as a hardware company is interesting. I know a lot of people like John Gruber argue that Apple is a software company but I disagree. Ultimately Apple is a product company but I would argue they're more of a hardware company than a software company. That's where they make most of their profit, and the iTunes/iOS ecosystem is there to sell iPods, iPhones and iPads, not the other way around. If Apple's software was packaged in crappy plastic would it sell well at all? I doubt it.

I wish Apple would get back to remembering what they do best, and outsource the rest. Google doesn't build hardware, why does Apple need to be in the mapping business?

Why does Apple need to be in the retail music business?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichL 


OK, here's the meta-analysis from Google.
Google results for "apple maps wrong" in the past month: 2,590,000 results
Google results for "google maps wrong" in past month: 2,240,000 results
Percentage of top 10 hits for "apple maps wrong" talking about problems with Apple Maps: 100%
Percentage of top 10 hits for "google maps wrong" talking about problems with Google Maps: 20%
Thus, number of relevant hits:
Apple maps wrong: 2,590,000
Google maps wrong: 448,000
(I went for "wrong" rather than "sucks" so that its a factual statement rather than an opinion. Hopefully the number of Google maps users balances out the hysteria and newness of Apple maps)

Sorry, but hits on Google doesn't back up your assertions at all. If you don't understand why, you probably shouldn't be making statements about anything asserting what is better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolipsismX 


Don't play dumb. The issue is with utility. That includes accuracy, feature set, and responsiveness.
As previous stated Apple does wonders with the responsiveness, the UI, offering TbT when that simply wasn't possible sticking with Google Maps, and likely not having my data sold so readily, but you are ignoring the areas where Apple is still behind Google.

Exactly what are those areas and exactly how far behind is Apple in them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogifan 

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

Why does Apple need to be in the retail music business?

To sell iPods and iPhones.

Right - they did not want to be at the mercy of a third party supplier. With mapping now a core feature of phones and tablets, I think the same answer applies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogifan 

I wish Apple would get back to remembering what they do best, and outsource the rest. Google doesn't build hardware, why does Apple need to be in the mapping business?

What about Google TV, Project Glass, and the Motorola acquisition?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeeJay2012 

Living here in Ontario, Canada, maps may be more of an issue. Analyses has shown that we have dropped off the face of Apple iOS 6 maps, with only about 30-40% of towns and cities accurately placed, or even placed at all. However I rarely used iPhone maps, and never used in small towns. For rare out of car use, I bought a 3rd party map app as Google maps was often wrong. It is not Apple's finest moment but I can honestly say that this map issue is not a factor in my continued use of iPhone nor a deterrent in upgrading to iPhone 5.

Yet, it's said to be better in China. You may say that you don't live in China, but I don't live in Ontario, nor do the residents of China. Not attacking your comments, just pointing out that these anecdotal reports are necessarily highly subjective and localized. So, perhaps worse one place, but also perhaps better in another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolipsismX 


Exactly how far behind is Windows behind Mac OS X?

Again, that's a red herring you introduced into the discussion, not I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichL 


Why don't they?
It's not a perfect system but its the best one available. The results aren't going to be precise but they're very likely to be accurate. It gives the broadest analysis of global experiences and Google's search results aren't going to be censored in any way.
Checking out 5 addresses out of hundreds of millions is a far worse solution. A meta-analysis is the only option and Google search is the best way to do that meta-analysis.

So, if I find more results that GW Bush is a villain than that OBL is a villain, that would prove that GWB is a bigger villain than OBL. Do you begin to see how ridiculous and beside your point your "evidence" is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolipsismX 

Quote:

Originally Posted by muppetry 

...but if the counter-argument, that Google's data also has plenty of errors, is correct, then there should be ample evidence in the form of examples that iOS gets correct and Google gets wrong. I haven't found any such cases in my area, and I've looked quite extensively so that I could report errors in the iOS maps, but others may have excellent examples where iOS maps are better. I'd like to hear about those for balance.

That's the same argument we see from trolls when they try to say that Android or Windows or whatever is better. They point a single instance of the other not being perfect and they think it's suppose to somehow even the playing field regardless of the ratio of flaws between them.

For instance, when it was announced the original iPad wasn't getting iOS 6 it was claimed that iOS was just as fragmented as Android. This is the sort of mental warping I'm seeing here from people defending Apple Maps without any critical thinking about ways that it's both inferior and superior.

It maybe says more about the unreasonable flak that Apple gets for fictitious issues that leads some here to become over-defensive in an instance like this.  Plus we are so used to Apple nailing it virtually every time. But, ignoring disingenuous ads from Google, this is a reasonable subject to debate.

People should probably read this web page in its entirety before arguing about Google Maps one way or the other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Maps

It takes a lot of work to put together a mapping service and Apple just hasn't put in the time yet. If only Tim or Scott had presented Apple Maps in the context of Google was trying to stick it to us and we had no other choice but to start from scratch and build a map solution of our own to be able to offer free turn by turn to our users. Apple Maps is still a work in progress and we need your help to make it better. If you find an error please use the 'report a problem' button and together we will make Apple Maps as good or better than any other map service out there.

But no, they had to get up on the stage and proclaim it was the most powerful and most elegant mapping solution the world has ever known. That was the blunder, not releasing it unfinished, just the hubris of claiming it was already the best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogifan 


Does google actually build TV's or set top boxes? I think the Motorola acquisition was more about nabbing up patents than wanting to get into the hardware business.

Until they shed that side of the business, yes Google does build and sell set-top boxes thru their subsidiary Motorola Mobility

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogifan 

I agree they should have called it beta software but leave the Google politics out of it.

But unfortunately that was the reason and I think everyone should know that. Politics or not, Google forced Apple's hand. For the public to understand the rational for releasing an unfinished service you really can't sweep the main issue under the rug.