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NYT: iOS Maps another internet services blunder for Apple - Page 3

post #81 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

...but if the counter-argument, that Google's data also has plenty of errors, is correct, then there should be ample evidence in the form of examples that iOS gets correct and Google gets wrong. I haven't found any such cases in my area, and I've looked quite extensively so that I could report errors in the iOS maps, but others may have excellent examples where iOS maps are better. I'd like to hear about those for balance.

That's the same argument we see from trolls when they try to say that Android or Windows or whatever is better. They point a single instance of the other not being perfect and they think it's suppose to somehow even the playing field regardless of the ratio of flaws between them.

For instance, when it was announced the original iPad wasn't getting iOS 6 it was claimed that iOS was just as fragmented as Android. This is the sort of mental warping I'm seeing here from people defending Apple Maps without any critical thinking about ways that it's both inferior and superior.

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post #82 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

I'm really not sure that the "prove it or you are wrong" argument adds very much to the discussion.

 

iOS maps is being compared to the de facto existing standard(s), and while it is very difficult to make a broad quantitative comparison, that does not invalidate sharing examples and comparing notes. Even ignoring stuff like flyover v. streetview, which is partly personal preference, it seems likely that a lot of hot air is being blown about how terrible iOS maps are, but on the other hand, numerous actual examples have been produced that show old and incomplete data. There is really not much more that anyone can do except compare individual instances, but if the counter-argument, that Google's data also has plenty of errors, is correct, then there should be ample evidence in the form of examples that iOS gets correct and Google gets wrong. I haven't found any such cases in my area, and I've looked quite extensively so that I could report errors in the iOS maps, but others may have excellent examples where iOS maps are better. I'd like to hear about those for balance.

 

Perhaps, but you have to consider that Google spent months poring over the Apple Maps betas to find errors. Google's iLost ad, knowingly misleading as it was, is evidence of that. It's also pretty clear that Google is feeding a stream of other errors they found to media outlets and astroturfers. So, in other words, the conversation is more than a bit one-sided, and manipulated by one interested party. They've been fairly effective at creating an impression that Apple Maps has a higher error rate than Google Maps, but there's no real evidence available to support that, just anecdotes.

 

I think it's a fair question for people claiming that Google Maps is "so much better", to ask them to back up that assertion based on the actual map data error rates, which is what this controversy is abou, not feature parityt, or admit that they don't really have the evidence to support it.

post #83 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmatic View Post

What does the lack of a web-based mapping service have to do with the iOS 6 Maps "blunder"?

The iOS 6 Maps app is very good. Much better than their previous Maps app but the blunder, as you put it, is with the back end and it being a complete service. Do you honestly not realize how Apple Maps works? Do you not understand that when you call a location it's querying a server?

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post #84 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


And you're well within your right to ignore features that don't matter to you when you create your opinion and how it's a benefit or detriment to your needs. I've clearly said what features I miss but that I'm glad Apple has made the move for the common reasons stated in every fucking thread.
You can, as I have, make a rational and informed decision as to why you are willing to forego certain features in favour of other features but it is pathetic to take a feature you once expected in a maps app or enjoyed and go all sour grapes on it simply because it's no longer part of the package.
No, the issue is about the entity of Apple's mapping service, which includes every aspect of its usability.
 

 

So, you admit that you are expressing an entirely subjective opinion. That's fine, as long as you are clear about that. So, if you say, "I like Google Maps better because..." no one will argue with you. You're entitled to like what you like. But, if you present your statements in terms of objective fact, you'd better be ready to back them up with evidence.

 

Quote:
PS: You still haven't quantified in the way you think is "reasonable" why OS X is better or worse than Windows.

 

That was your statement introduced into the conversation, not mine.

post #85 of 444

Apple apparently had modified it's description of Maps in the last 24 hours.

 

http://idaily.de/wp-content/uploads//2012/09/maps_no_longer_powerful.jpg

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post #86 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I think it's a fair question for people claiming that Google Maps is "so much better", to ask them to back up that assertion based on the actual map data error rates, which is what this controversy is abou, not feature parityt, or admit that they don't really have the evidence to support it.

Don't play dumb. The issue is with utility. That includes accuracy, feature set, and responsiveness.

As previous stated Apple does wonders with the responsiveness, the UI, offering TbT when that simply wasn't possible sticking with Google Maps, and likely not having my data sold so readily, but you are ignoring the areas where Apple is still behind Google.

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post #87 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I'm not the one making the claim that Apple's Maps are inferior. The people making that claim have the burden of proof.
But, if you wish, I used Apple Maps to find 5 addresses. Each one gave me the same location as Google Maps. Therefore, my 'analysis' is that Apple Maps is perfect.
Prove me wrong.

OK, here's the meta-analysis from Google.

Google results for "apple maps wrong" in the past month: 2,590,000 results
Google results for "google maps wrong" in past month: 2,240,000 results

Percentage of top 10 hits for "apple maps wrong" talking about problems with Apple Maps: 100%
Percentage of top 10 hits for "google maps wrong" talking about problems with Google Maps: 20%

Thus, number of relevant hits:
Apple maps wrong: 2,590,000
Google maps wrong: 448,000

(I went for "wrong" rather than "sucks" so that its a factual statement rather than an opinion. Hopefully the number of Google maps users balances out the hysteria and newness of Apple maps)
post #88 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Apple apparently had modified it's description of Maps in the last 24 hours.

http://idaily.de/wp-content/uploads//2012/09/maps_no_longer_powerful.jpg

You're reading too much into that. One, they changed every sentence in that list, not just what was highlighted. Two, the original statement of being most beautiful, powerful are subjective and too loose a definition to be any real legal issue.

I'd say most will find Apple Maps to be more beautiful and compared to iOS 5 and iOS 6 Maps on an iPhone 3GS, 4, or 4S iOS 6 Maps will run much faster.

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post #89 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

 

I'm really not sure that the "prove it or you are wrong" argument adds very much to the discussion.

 

iOS maps is being compared to the de facto existing standard(s), and while it is very difficult to make a broad quantitative comparison, that does not invalidate sharing examples and comparing notes. Even ignoring stuff like flyover v. streetview, which is partly personal preference, it seems likely that a lot of hot air is being blown about how terrible iOS maps are, but on the other hand, numerous actual examples have been produced that show old and incomplete data. There is really not much more that anyone can do except compare individual instances, but if the counter-argument, that Google's data also has plenty of errors, is correct, then there should be ample evidence in the form of examples that iOS gets correct and Google gets wrong. I haven't found any such cases in my area, and I've looked quite extensively so that I could report errors in the iOS maps, but others may have excellent examples where iOS maps are better. I'd like to hear about those for balance.

 

Perhaps, but you have to consider that Google spent months poring over the Apple Maps betas to find errors. Google's iLost ad, knowingly misleading as it was, is evidence of that. It's also pretty clear that Google is feeding a stream of other errors they found to media outlets and astroturfers. So, in other words, the conversation is more than a bit one-sided, and manipulated by one interested party. They've been fairly effective at creating an impression that Apple Maps has a higher error rate than Google Maps, but there's no real evidence available to support that, just anecdotes.

 

I think it's a fair question for people claiming that Google Maps is "so much better", to ask them to back up that assertion based on the actual map data error rates, which is what this controversy is abou, not feature parityt, or admit that they don't really have the evidence to support it.

 

Agree completely about Google's role in this. On the other hand, I don't think anyone, on their own, is going to generate enough examples to produce useable error rates outside limited locales, which means we have little choice but to listen to the crowd reaction and try to separate the data from the noise.

 

And then there is always the concern that we are hearing disproportionately from those who are dissatisfied. I have no idea whether the comparisons that I see locally can be extrapolated to elsewhere. It does not seem unreasonable that the iOS database, being much newer, might be less extensive and have undergone less scrubbing and error correction than the Google database, but I have no way to know, and nor does that seem like a good reason to criticize Apple. If crowd-sourced information really is important in generating high-quality data in this kind of application, then they had no option but to release in this form.

post #90 of 444
The quote at the end of this article from a former employee Referring to Apple as a hardware company is interesting. I know a lot of people like John Gruber argue that Apple is a software company but I disagree. Ultimately Apple is a product company but I would argue they're more of a hardware company than a software company. That's where they make most of their profit, and the iTunes/iOS ecosystem is there to sell iPods, iPhones and iPads, not the other way around. If Apple's software was packaged in crappy plastic would it sell well at all? I doubt it.

I wish Apple would get back to remembering what they do best, and outsource the rest. Google doesn't build hardware, why does Apple need to be in the mapping business?
post #91 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


The iOS 6 Maps app is very good. Much better than their previous Maps app but the blunder, as you put it, is with the back end and it being a complete service. Do you honestly not realize how Apple Maps works? Do you not understand that when you call a location it's querying a server?

I didn't call it a blunder.  I was merely quoting the headline.

post #92 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

The quote at the end of this article from a former employee Referring to Apple as a hardware company is interesting. I know a lot of people like John Gruber argue that Apple is a software company but I disagree. Ultimately Apple is a product company but I would argue they're more of a hardware company than a software company. That's where they make most of their profit, and the iTunes/iOS ecosystem is there to sell iPods, iPhones and iPads, not the other way around. If Apple's software was packaged in crappy plastic would it sell well at all? I doubt it.

I wish Apple would get back to remembering what they do best, and outsource the rest. Google doesn't build hardware, why does Apple need to be in the mapping business?

 

Why does Apple need to be in the retail music business?

post #93 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

The quote at the end of this article from a former employee Referring to Apple as a hardware company is interesting. I know a lot of people like John Gruber argue that Apple is a software company but I disagree. Ultimately Apple is a product company but I would argue they're more of a hardware company than a software company. That's where they make most of their profit, and the iTunes/iOS ecosystem is there to sell iPods, iPhones and iPads, not the other way around. If Apple's software was packaged in crappy plastic would it sell well at all? I doubt it.
I wish Apple would get back to remembering what they do best, and outsource the rest. Google doesn't build hardware, why does Apple need to be in the mapping business?

I think Gruber has been calling Apple an experience company in recent years.

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post #94 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Apple apparently had modified it's description of Maps in the last 24 hours.

http://idaily.de/wp-content/uploads//2012/09/maps_no_longer_powerful.jpg

Thank God. "The most powerful"? I'm using Apple Map and I don't have any problem with it apart from no traffic info in my country but I don't think for a second that it's the most powerful right now.
post #95 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueDogRandy View Post

You are mistaken on just about every comment you made. Sure Apple is not above criticism, but to suggest that hat they deserve "substantial" criticism starts to wreak of typical iHater rhetoric. Just how many of the 5 million ip[hones last week were scratched? forbes reported a few dozen... It was a small isolated instance that I am sure was addressed and rectified promptly. QC at Apple is not lacking, they are the top of consumer satisfaction surveys and will continue to hold that position for a long time to come. Cook and Clan? what the hell is that supposed to mean? You sound like a troll, and an iHater, or maybe just a typical droid dork by the tone of your post. 
Apple are doomed to mediocrity huh? Is that what their sales numbers and satisfaction surveys say? Guess again, iThink you need to step back and take a deep breathe before you post such ridiculous ill-informed comments again.

By the way, Apple is shining like never before and it keeps getting brighter. We all wish Steve Jobs was still here to enjoy the wonderful devices and products Apple are introducing, If he were here I am sure he would be smiling knowing that Apple are diminishing  goofles presence on their awesome iDevices.
How can anyone say with a straight face that Jony Ive is a spreadsheet guy? Loooool
post #96 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post


OK, here's the meta-analysis from Google.
Google results for "apple maps wrong" in the past month: 2,590,000 results
Google results for "google maps wrong" in past month: 2,240,000 results
Percentage of top 10 hits for "apple maps wrong" talking about problems with Apple Maps: 100%
Percentage of top 10 hits for "google maps wrong" talking about problems with Google Maps: 20%
Thus, number of relevant hits:
Apple maps wrong: 2,590,000
Google maps wrong: 448,000
(I went for "wrong" rather than "sucks" so that its a factual statement rather than an opinion. Hopefully the number of Google maps users balances out the hysteria and newness of Apple maps)

 

Sorry, but hits on Google doesn't back up your assertions at all. If you don't understand why, you probably shouldn't be making statements about anything asserting what is better.

post #97 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Don't play dumb. The issue is with utility. That includes accuracy, feature set, and responsiveness.
As previous stated Apple does wonders with the responsiveness, the UI, offering TbT when that simply wasn't possible sticking with Google Maps, and likely not having my data sold so readily, but you are ignoring the areas where Apple is still behind Google.

 

Exactly what are those areas and exactly how far behind is Apple in them?

post #98 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

Why does Apple need to be in the retail music business?
To sell iPods and iPhones.
post #99 of 444
Living here in Ontario, Canada, maps may be more of an issue. Analyses has shown that we have dropped off the face of Apple iOS 6 maps, with only about 30-40% of towns and cities accurately placed, or even placed at all. However I rarely used iPhone maps, and never used in small towns. For rare out of car use, I bought a 3rd party map app as Google maps was often wrong. It is not Apple's finest moment but I can honestly say that this map issue is not a factor in my continued use of iPhone nor a deterrent in upgrading to iPhone 5.
post #100 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Exactly what are those areas and exactly how far behind is Apple in them?

Exactly how far behind is Windows behind Mac OS X?

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post #101 of 444
I haven't had any more problems with Apples map than Googles. I expect like all things it will get better. This is the press having their first Steve Jobs schadenfreude moment.
post #102 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

Why does Apple need to be in the retail music business?
To sell iPods and iPhones.

 

Right - they did not want to be at the mercy of a third party supplier. With mapping now a core feature of phones and tablets, I think the same answer applies.

post #103 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

I wish Apple would get back to remembering what they do best, and outsource the rest. Google doesn't build hardware, why does Apple need to be in the mapping business?

What about Google TV, Project Glass, and the Motorola acquisition?

post #104 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Sorry, but hits on Google doesn't back up your assertions at all. If you don't understand why, you probably shouldn't be making statements about anything asserting what is better.

Why don't they?

It's not a perfect system but its the best one available. The results aren't going to be precise but they're very likely to be accurate. It gives the broadest analysis of global experiences and Google's search results aren't going to be censored in any way.

Checking out 5 addresses out of hundreds of millions is a far worse solution. A meta-analysis is the only option and Google search is the best way to do that meta-analysis.
post #105 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I think Gruber has been calling Apple an experience company in recent years.
That makes sense. But I still would argue great hardware is Apple's biggest selling feature. If the iPhone came in a Galaxy S3 type crappy plastic enclosure I wouldn't be buying it that's for sure. I'm not that wedded to iOS.
post #106 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeJay2012 View Post

Living here in Ontario, Canada, maps may be more of an issue. Analyses has shown that we have dropped off the face of Apple iOS 6 maps, with only about 30-40% of towns and cities accurately placed, or even placed at all. However I rarely used iPhone maps, and never used in small towns. For rare out of car use, I bought a 3rd party map app as Google maps was often wrong. It is not Apple's finest moment but I can honestly say that this map issue is not a factor in my continued use of iPhone nor a deterrent in upgrading to iPhone 5.

 

Yet, it's said to be better in China. You may say that you don't live in China, but I don't live in Ontario, nor do the residents of China. Not attacking your comments, just pointing out that these anecdotal reports are necessarily highly subjective and localized. So, perhaps worse one place, but also perhaps better in another.

post #107 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Exactly how far behind is Windows behind Mac OS X?

 

Again, that's a red herring you introduced into the discussion, not I.

post #108 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I agree. It is all about trying to stir up more anti Apple sentiment. The article is even titled in a way to mislead and get eyeballs. It reads at first glance as if the current solution was a last minute idea. This is tabloid journalism at its worst and a trend here on AI also and frankly turning me off reading AI more and more.

It seems AI is more interested in attracting Apple haters these days. I am going to go read Mac Rumors now and I may not be back here much as I used to be.

Odd that you say that... I've been visiting MR more and more lately...

The technical operation of the AI site has deteriorated, and AI doesn't seem interested in fixing it -- Likely, Apple maps will evolve into the first-class mapping service before you can add emoticons to an AI post... Really, how hard can that be?

But, much worse is the infestation of trolls on every thread -- reasoned discussion is becoming impossible. Possible solution is to delay each post until it has been moderated by a human and evaluated as to whether it contributes to the discussion.
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 9/29/12 at 10:28am
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post #109 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post


Why don't they?
It's not a perfect system but its the best one available. The results aren't going to be precise but they're very likely to be accurate. It gives the broadest analysis of global experiences and Google's search results aren't going to be censored in any way.
Checking out 5 addresses out of hundreds of millions is a far worse solution. A meta-analysis is the only option and Google search is the best way to do that meta-analysis.

 

So, if I find more results that GW Bush is a villain than that OBL is a villain, that would prove that GWB is a bigger villain than OBL. Do you begin to see how ridiculous and beside your point your "evidence" is?

post #110 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmatic View Post

What about Google TV, Project Glass, and the Motorola acquisition?
Does google actually build TV's or set top boxes? I think the Motorola acquisition was more about nabbing up patents than wanting to get into the hardware business.
post #111 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

...but if the counter-argument, that Google's data also has plenty of errors, is correct, then there should be ample evidence in the form of examples that iOS gets correct and Google gets wrong. I haven't found any such cases in my area, and I've looked quite extensively so that I could report errors in the iOS maps, but others may have excellent examples where iOS maps are better. I'd like to hear about those for balance.

That's the same argument we see from trolls when they try to say that Android or Windows or whatever is better. They point a single instance of the other not being perfect and they think it's suppose to somehow even the playing field regardless of the ratio of flaws between them.

For instance, when it was announced the original iPad wasn't getting iOS 6 it was claimed that iOS was just as fragmented as Android. This is the sort of mental warping I'm seeing here from people defending Apple Maps without any critical thinking about ways that it's both inferior and superior.

 

It maybe says more about the unreasonable flak that Apple gets for fictitious issues that leads some here to become over-defensive in an instance like this.  Plus we are so used to Apple nailing it virtually every time. But, ignoring disingenuous ads from Google, this is a reasonable subject to debate.

post #112 of 444

People should probably read this web page in its entirety before arguing about Google Maps one way or the other.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Maps

 

It takes a lot of work to put together a mapping service and Apple just hasn't put in the time yet. If only Tim or Scott had presented Apple Maps in the context of Google was trying to stick it to us and we had no other choice but to start from scratch and build a map solution of our own to be able to offer free turn by turn to our users. Apple Maps is still a work in progress and we need your help to make it better. If you find an error please use the 'report a problem' button and together we will make Apple Maps as good or better than any other map service out there.

 

But no, they had to get up on the stage and proclaim it was the most powerful and most elegant mapping solution the world has ever known. That was the blunder, not releasing it unfinished, just the hubris of claiming it was already the best.

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post #113 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Again, that's a red herring you introduced into the discussion, not I.

You introduced it when you said that one can't reasonable decide if something is better or worse if it can't be exactly quantified. I'll make sure to use your lameduck argument the next time to blindly claim Apple is ahead of some other company/ I'll likely agree with you that they are but I'll expect you to exactly quantify the unquantifiable as you try to use the Android/Windows user's argument as to why Apple's products are just hype when they can list spec sheet items that have had for years in a very poor form compared to a much better experience Apple usually gets right out of the gate.

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post #114 of 444
Another article quoting "has beens" and "speculators". Maybe the NYT would like to list all of the outstanding innovations they have made without any problem. You can likely list them between the following two periods. .
post #115 of 444
Lol another stupid article from the iHaters at the New York Times
What a crippled rag
post #116 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Does google actually build TV's or set top boxes? I think the Motorola acquisition was more about nabbing up patents than wanting to get into the hardware business.

Until they shed that side of the business, yes Google does build and sell set-top boxes thru their subsidiary Motorola Mobility

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post #117 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

People should probably read this web page in its entirety before arguing about Google Maps one way or the other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Maps

It takes a lot of work to put together a mapping service and Apple just hasn't put in the time yet. If only Tim or Scott had presented Apple Maps in the context of Google was trying to stick it to us and we had no other choice but to start from scratch and build a map solution of our own to be able to offer free turn by turn to our users. Apple Maps is still a work in progress and we need your help to make it better. If you find an error please use the 'report a problem' button and together we will make Apple Maps as good or better than any other map service out there.

But no, they had to get up on the stage and proclaim it was the most powerful and most elegant mapping solution the world has ever known. That was the blunder, not releasing it unfinished, just the hubris of claiming it was already the best.
I agree they should have called it beta software but leave the Google politics out of it.
post #118 of 444
iTunes? iCloud? The App Store? Safari?
post #119 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Prediction: Apple will have the best mapping service within a year.

I'd say Apple will have the best mapping service in many regards within a year. There new Maps for iOS 6 is already worlds above iOS 5 in many regards, but some of that is because of Google's poor backend offerings. I haven't directly compared it to Google Maps on Android and Nokia Maps on WinPh7 but I suspect Apple Maps would best them in some ways right now.

I'm not sure I'll think Apple has the de facto best mapping service if they don't offer every major feature that is currently available by others. A street view service, for example, would be needed.

I was recorded by a Navteq True car whilst standing in line for my iPhone last week. I didn't even know they were doing such a service. If Apple can license this tech it appears to be much better than the game of Myst running on a 200MHz Pentium PC that we currently have from Google Street View.


Now, I'm sure someone is saying "But Apple won't use Navteq because they want to own the entire mapping service." Not true. They still license several aspects of Apple Maps with TomTom, Waze, Yelp, and at least a dozen others. Owning your own maps doesn't mean not contracting with others for support.

Great video of map data gathering... Now, if they could only mount that technology on a golf cart…
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post #120 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

I agree they should have called it beta software but leave the Google politics out of it.

But unfortunately that was the reason and I think everyone should know that. Politics or not, Google forced Apple's hand. For the public to understand the rational for releasing an unfinished service you really can't sweep the main issue under the rug.

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