or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › If you are really pro-life and not just anti-sex religious nutbags...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

If you are really pro-life and not just anti-sex religious nutbags...

post #1 of 85
Thread Starter 

...then you would provide free birth control for anyone who wants it.  

 

http://esciencenews.com/articles/2012/10/04/abortion.rates.plummet.with.free.birth.control

 

 

 

Quote:

From 2008 to 2010, annual abortion rates among study participants ranged from 4.4 to 7.5 per 1,000 women. This is a substantial drop (62 percent to 78 percent) over the national rate of 19.6 abortions per 1,000 women in 2008, the latest year for which figures are available.

The lower abortion rates among CHOICE participants also is considerably less than the rates in St. Louis city and county, which ranged from 13.4 to 17 per 1,000 women, for the same years.

Among girls ages 15-19 who had access to free birth control provided in the study, the annual birth rate was 6.3 per 1,000, far below the U.S. rate of 34.3 per 1,000 for girls the same age.

 

If you truly believe abortion is murder, then pony up some cash and you can be a motherfucking hero with all the lives you save.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #2 of 85

Even if I wanted to personally pull their unborn babies out of their uterus and grind them into seasoning to flavor my eggs, why do I have to pay for it?

 

Let the one percent pay for it. They're responsible for everything anyway. Let Democrats pay for it by just mandating that all companies that produce birth control have to give it away for free. It doesn't really matter if it costs them anything because people think about numbers are just greedy assholes.

 

Let the people who don't have kids pay for it because it's cheaper than letting the people have kids and then burdening them with it.

 

Sorry if all those points seem lame but they had to match the thread premise.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #3 of 85

BR, I think you meant to type:

 

 

 

Quote:
Thank goodness for all the money you Christians have donated over the years to Crisis Pregnancy Centers.

 

 

You're welcome.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #4 of 85

Because birth control is the only way to prevent unwanted pregnancies? Really?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #5 of 85
How does one answer this thread... You have BR saying if one doesn't pay for birth control for others to prevent life they are not pro life but instead are "anti-sex religious nutbags". I sense a false dilemma...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #6 of 85

I don't think that murdering and slaughtering a fetus is a particularly nice or noble thing to do, but if weak people and slutty women wish to eliminate and murder their own offspring, then go for it. I don't really care about them or their DNA. 

 

However, people should definitely have to pay for their own birth control. What's the name of that ugly and anti-American liberal college woman who was demanding that other people pay for her birth control? Sandra Fluke or something? That liberal loon and wannabe slut needs to pay for her own, get a job bitch. She can screw a whole football team every night and contract various nasty STDs for all I care, just don't expect me or any other tax payers to pay one single cent towards the slut's birth control.

post #7 of 85
Thread Starter 

I see all sorts of judgments against the women and scoffing of "why should I have to pay?" in almost every response thus far.  Bottom line though--if your goal is to truly reduce the number of abortions, this is a proven, effective, and relatively cheap way of doing it.  Religious nutbags or militantly selfish Randians it is then.  Sorry for only giving two options before.  I forgot about the latter.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #8 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I see all sorts of judgments against the women and scoffing of "why should I have to pay?" in almost every response thus far.  Bottom line though--if your goal is to truly reduce the number of abortions, this is a proven, effective, and relatively cheap way of doing it.  Religious nutbags or militantly selfish Randians it is then.  Sorry for only giving two options before.  I forgot about the latter.

 

Sweet...so should the government provide me free condoms, then?  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #9 of 85
Thread Starter 

I'd be fine with that, too.  It would greatly reduce STI transmission.  Include comprehensive, honest sex education and we have ourselves a trifecta of abortion reduction and dramatic improvements to public health.

 

But if you don't want to go that far, you can't deny the significant reduction in abortions that providing women with long-term birth control options would cause.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #10 of 85

Why don't you pay for your birth control and I'll pay for mine? Then we can end this.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #11 of 85
Thread Starter 

So you prefer more abortions.  Got it.  Anti-sex religious nutbag or Randian zombie?  A little bit of both?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #12 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So you prefer more abortions.  Got it.

 

The only thing you've got is a non sequitur.

 

But I notice that you failed to answer my question: Why don't you pay for your birth control and I'll pay for mine?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #13 of 85
Thread Starter 

Society.  Community.  The greater good.  I'm not a selfish motherfucker.  I actually want fewer abortions to happen.  This is an easy, pragmatic way of accomplishing that task.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #14 of 85

So you're saying that I should pay for your birth control (and presumably you should, in turn, pay for mine) instead of us each paying for our own because of:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Society.  Community.  The greater good.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm not a selfish motherfucker.

 

The jury's still out on that.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I actually want fewer abortions to happen.

 

So do I.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

This is an easy, pragmatic way of accomplishing that task.

 

So me paying for your birth control (you paying for mine) will lead to fewer abortions?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #15 of 85
Thread Starter 

Well, not mine.  I'm not a female.  Read the study.  But, I would inductively reason that free access to male birth control would also drive down abortion rates.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #16 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Absolutely.  Read the study.

 

I'm confused. Why don't you just pay for yours and I pay for mine?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #17 of 85
Thread Starter 

I want to drive down the number of abortions.  There are those who cannot afford to pay.  It is in society's best interests to make it freely accessible, so fewer abortions happen.  Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?  Asked and fucking answered three times now.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #18 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I want to drive down the number of abortions.

 

Yes, so you've said.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

There are those who cannot afford to pay.

 

Okay.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It is in society's best interests to make it freely accessible, so fewer abortions happen.

 

I see.

 

In summary: You can't afford birth control so you want me to buy it for you so you and your partner can have sexual intercourse and reduce the risk of you or your partner getting pregnant (which you won't want to happen and which, if it did happen, you or she would chose to abort the child.) And, I assume, since you cannot afford to buy your own birth control, you won't be paying for mine.

 

Is that all correct?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?

 

Yes. do you understand the words I'm writing?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Asked and fucking answered three times now.

 

Actually, not even once. Maybe in your mind though I suppose.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #19 of 85
Thread Starter 

I can afford my own and I will happily have some of my tax dollars go toward paying for others.  Furthermore, I will enjoy fewer of my tax dollars going toward emergency room visits.  So yeah, selfish Randian it was.  You are more worried about a small fraction of your money than abortions.  Got it.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #20 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I can afford my own and I will happily have some of my tax dollars go toward paying for others.

 

Okay. What's stopping you from donating money to those who need birth control but cannot afford it?

 

Note: It's not just your dollars that you want going toward your goals and values but everyone else's dollars as well.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You are more worried about a small fraction of your money than abortions. Got it.

 

Again the only thing you've got there is a fallacy.


Edited by MJ1970 - 10/5/12 at 1:10pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #21 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You are more worried about a small fraction of your money than abortions.  Got it.

I definitely am. I am not willing to spend 1 single penny in order to fund somebody else's abortion. It's not right. If they wish to murder their own offspring, then that's their choice. Don't ask me to pay for it.

 

The bright side is that fewer liberals come into this world. How many abortions since 1973 in the USA? Something like 50 million? Nice job. lol.gif Keep it up.

post #22 of 85
I specifically remember being promised that free love and The Pill was going to end our problems with sex, then there was something about sex education, _that_ was going to solve our problems. Then there was the promise of Condoms, _that_ was going to solve our problems. Now there's the morning after pill....


In the meantime, people _can_ pay $100 bucks a month for their cell phone, but _can't_ buy condoms, or contraceptives. Now 1 in 4 teenage girls in America has an STD. Maybe the lack of foresight and self-control that went out the window with premarital sex is the actual cause of our problems. Maybe facile false causality "solutions," only serve to make their advocates feel good about themselves --- while they ignore the moral elephant in the room.

And lo, and behold, it brings us back to the dirty little secret of the sexual/moral revolution of the 60s/70s ----> it only benefited the rich.






















...which reminds me, the local Crisis Pregnancy Center desperately needs diapers..... something that actually helps.
Edited by dmz - 10/5/12 at 1:54pm

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #23 of 85

BR, please explain why some people should be forced under threat of violence to give other people money to avoid the undesirable consequences of their own choices.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #24 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Okay. What's stopping you from donating money to those who need birth control but cannot afford it?

 

Note: It's not just your dollars that you want going toward your goals and values but everyone else's dollars as well.

 

 

 

Again the only thing you've got there is a fallacy.

 

Put up or shut up.  So far, you are all talk about wanting to reduce the number of abortions.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #25 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

BR, please explain why some people should be forced under threat of violence to give other people money to avoid the undesirable consequences of their own choices.

Society benefits from fewer unwanted pregnancies.  And please, stop the threat of violence meme.  If you don't want to live in a society, go off the grid and leave us alone.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #26 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

 

Put up or shut up.  So far, you are all talk about wanting to reduce the number of abortions.  

 

So you're not going to answer my question: What's stopping you from donating money to those who need birth control but cannot afford it?

 

Nor are you going to respond to the fact that it's not just your dollars that you want going toward your goals and values but everyone else's dollars as well?

 

Okay.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #27 of 85
Thread Starter 

I cannot afford to donate to and make an impact for every worthy cause.  Collectively, as a civilized society, we are.  I know, you have a raging hardon for volunteerism--but we are essentially a Banana Republic right now with our wealth disparity and people go hungry, have no roofs over their heads, have unwanted children, and die from a lack of adequate healthcare.  Sorry, volunteerism isn't enough.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #28 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Society benefits from fewer unwanted pregnancies.

 

Agreed.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And please, stop the threat of violence meme.

 

It's not a "meme" just because you support and condone it.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

If you don't want to live in a society, go off the grid and leave us alone.

 

Stop your silly false dichotomies. If you want people who cannot afford birth control to have it donate your money to them.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #29 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I cannot afford to donate to and make an impact for every worthy cause.

 

So, then, it's okay to force everyone else to do what you want.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Sorry, volunteerism isn't enough.

 

Funny we have more government and less volunteerism than ever in the history of civilization and yet we have this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

but we are essentially a Banana Republic right now with our wealth disparity and people go hungry, have no roofs over their heads, have unwanted children, and die from a lack of adequate healthcare.

 

We must need even more government control of the world.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #30 of 85
Thread Starter 

It's what you want.  You want fewer abortions.  You want fewer emergency room visits on the tab of the taxpayer.  You are just so caught up in your religiosity (both your Jesus-freakery and conflicting, yet equally fervent Randian fanaticism) that you can't see that providing free contraception is a very cost-effective way at dramatically reducing the number of abortions performed.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #31 of 85
Thread Starter 

And unlike you, I can actually point to examples where the level of government intervention I desire works beautifully.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #32 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It's what you want. You want fewer abortions. You want fewer emergency room visits on the tab of the taxpayer.

 

Correct.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You can't see that providing free contraception is a very cost-effective way at dramatically reducing the number of abortions performed.

 

Of course I can.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #33 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

 I can actually point to examples where the level of government intervention I desire works beautifully.

 

So? That's not surprising at all. Of course you can.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #34 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Society benefits from fewer unwanted pregnancies.  And please, stop the threat of violence meme.  If you don't want to live in a society, go off the grid and leave us alone.

 

Isn't it fun to arbitrarily declare that something benefits society and then use the force of government to steal money and resources from people to subsidize it?

 

I hereby declare that free ice cream benefits society. You will be required to have an ice cream tax deducted from your paycheck. If you refuse to pay, you will be fined, thrown in a cage, and killed if you resist.

 

Leave you alone? You should want more libertarians like me because that's exactly what we want to do: leave you alone. But here's the thing: we want you to leave us alone, too.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #35 of 85
Thread Starter 

Go live off the grid, then.  Your ice cream idea is a shining example of a textbook strawman.  Go home.  To the woods.  Off the grid.  Since, you know, you don't want to participate in society.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #36 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Go live off the grid, then.  Your ice cream idea is a shining example of a textbook strawman.  Go home.  To the woods.  Off the grid.  Since, you know, you don't want to participate in society.

 

Stop foisting your false dichotomies on us. It makes you look silly and foolish.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #37 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

So? That's not surprising at all. Of course you can.

So what's your shining example of a large-scale volunteerist society in which each member has free or incredibly cheap access to healthcare?  A volunteerist society in which higher education is either free or incredibly cheap?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #38 of 85
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Stop foisting your false dichotomies on us. It makes you look silly and foolish.

If any amount of taxes is tantamount to threat of violence, the only way to avoid that is to have no government--or at least one small enough that it can be fully funded through voluntary donations.  Yeah, go live off the grid.  That ain't happening.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #39 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So what's your shining example of a large-scale volunteerist society in which each member has free or incredibly cheap access to healthcare?  A volunteerist society in which higher education is either free or incredibly cheap?

 

Well there is no place where these things are free. They wouldn't be free in environment you advocate either. If anything they will be more expensive than they would be absent government intervention.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #40 of 85
Thread Starter 

Begging the question about being more expensive.  Less overhead and no profit extraction can make things cheaper.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › If you are really pro-life and not just anti-sex religious nutbags...