AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › If you are really pro-life and not just anti-sex religious nutbags...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

If you are really pro-life and not just anti-sex religious nutbags... - Page 2

post #41 of 85
10/5/12 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Go live off the grid, then.  Your ice cream idea is a shining example of a textbook strawman.  Go home.  To the woods.  Off the grid.  Since, you know, you don't want to participate in society.

 

What do you believe to be "participating in society"?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #42 of 85
10/5/12 at 3:10pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Less overhead and no profit extraction can make things cheaper.

 

Incorrect. You'd like to think so, but it doesn't work that way. It is free competition in a free market that drives costs down. There is ample evidence of this all around us in various markets that are more or less un-molested by the state.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #43 of 85
10/5/12 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

What do you believe to be "participating in society"?

 

Submitting to his wishes.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #44 of 85
10/5/12 at 3:20pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Incorrect. You'd like to think so, but it doesn't work that way. It is free competition in a free market that drives costs down. There is ample evidence of this all around us in various markets that are more or less un-molested by the state.

Ah yes, the idea of no regulation.  Of course, then there's all the societal overhead that comes from that mess.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #45 of 85
10/5/12 at 3:26pm

What is "society", BR, but a group of individuals?

 

I share Murray N. Rothbard's view of "society" (emphasis mine):

 

Quote:
We have talked at length of individual rights; but what, it may be asked, of the "rights of society"? Don't they supersede the rights of the mere individual? The libertarian, however, is an individualist; he believes that one of the prime errors in social theory is to treat "society" as if it were an actually existing entity. "Society" is sometimes treated as a superior or quasi-divine figure with overriding "rights" of its own; at other times as an existing evil which can be blamed for all the ills of the world. The individualist holds that only individuals exist, think, feel, choose, and act; and that "society" is not a living entity but simply a label for a set of interacting individuals. Treating society as a thing that chooses and acts, then, serves to obscure the real forces at work. If, in a small community, ten people band together to rob and expropriate three others, then this is clearly and evidently a case of a group of individuals acting in concert against another group. In this situation, if the ten people presumed to refer to themselves as "society" acting in "its" interest, the rationale would be laughed out of court; even the ten robbers would probably be too shamefaced to use this sort of argument. But let their size increase, and this kind of obfuscation becomes rife and succeeds in duping the public.

 

You try to justify the use of force against peaceful people by declaring it will somehow benefit "society", but in reality it's a pitiful excuse for wanting to violently impose your will on everyone else who disagrees with you.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #46 of 85
10/5/12 at 3:27pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

Jazz doesn't believe in the social contract.  Kind of puts us at an impasse.  Please, just go off the grid and let civilization continue its march of progress.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #47 of 85
10/5/12 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Ah yes, the idea of no regulation.  Of course, then there's all the societal overhead that comes from that mess.  

 

You seem incapable of directly addressing the argument, instead mis-directing into some tangent. Why is this? Are you afraid you might change your mind? Are you afraid you might be wrong?

 

Profit-seeking market competition is the force that produces more products of greater quality at lower prices available to more people. This is a fact supported by ample evidence of history and readily available observation in the present as well. It is also a regulating force in and of itself (which you deny or ignore.) You pretend or assume that private companies can just do whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want to whomever they want with impunity and without consequence. But there is precious little evidence of this. Where it does happen, typically you will typically find the state sitting by their side taking the consequences away in some manner.


Edited by MJ1970 - 10/6/12 at 9:34am

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #48 of 85
10/5/12 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Jazz doesn't believe in the social contract.  Kind of puts us at an impasse.  Please, just go off the grid and let civilization continue its march of progress.

 

You're right that it would put us an an impasse. But it's interesting how you think you get to declare the absolute existence of something abstract like the "social contract" without any proof and then tell those who don't see it your way or agree with your belief to go live somewhere else. How...leftist of you.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #49 of 85
10/5/12 at 3:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Jazz doesn't believe in the social contract.  Kind of puts us at an impasse.  Please, just go off the grid and let civilization continue its march of progress.

 

Oh look, BR is putting his fingers in his ears and screaming again.

 

You keep trying to violently bring about your Brave New World, BR.

 

As for me: Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem. (I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #50 of 85
10/5/12 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Society.  Community.  The greater good.  I'm not a selfish motherfucker.  I actually want fewer abortions to happen.  This is an easy, pragmatic way of accomplishing that task.

 

Ah.  We're all in this together.  Right?  Hmm.   Oh, and I actually think you don't give a shit about how many abortions happen.  You're just using it to bash pro-lifers over the head, as usual.  

To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #51 of 85
10/11/12 at 1:06pm
Well, this thread went exactly where I thought it would... 1oyvey.gif
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #52 of 85
10/11/12 at 2:38pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

The usual anti-sex, anti-government, anti-reason suspects simultaneously attacked with logical fallacies?  Yup.  That makes me sad, too, Noah.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #53 of 85
10/12/12 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The usual anti-sex, anti-government, anti-reason suspects simultaneously attacked with logical fallacies?  Yup.  That makes me sad, too, Noah.
When the argument presented is a false choice, "either you are for or against" what did you expect the debate to be? Honestly, I believe this occurred just like you wanted it to. You got to lay into anyone who disagreed with you, and you got to feel superior to any who disagreed based on your false dichotomy. For the voice of reason on these boards that you see yourself as, pretty unreasonable.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #54 of 85
10/12/12 at 2:19pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

Name a plausible, common reason--other than being an anti-sex religious nutjob or a small-government ideologue--why someone who claims to be pro-life would choose a modest amount of money over thousands of lives one claims one wants to protect.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #55 of 85
10/14/12 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Name a plausible, common reason--other than being an anti-sex religious nutjob or a small-government ideologue--why someone who claims to be pro-life would choose a modest amount of money over thousands of lives one claims one wants to protect.

 

Classic BR.  

To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
To save time, assume I know everything.
Reply
post #56 of 85
10/14/12 at 9:10am
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

So you won't name a reason?  If I have falsely categorized those reasons or left one out that falls into a different category, do tell.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #57 of 85
10/14/12 at 11:39am

BR, have you stopped beating your wife?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #58 of 85
10/14/12 at 11:49am
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

Faulty analogy.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #59 of 85
10/14/12 at 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Faulty analogy.

 

I think he was attacking the stated assumption within your question: that "someone who claims to be pro-life would choose a modest amount of money over thousands of lives one claims one wants to protect". It becomes a loaded question fallacy if that situation does not obtain to begin with.

 

Reply
Reply
post #60 of 85
10/14/12 at 12:04pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

Oh, I know what he was attacking.  He's wrong in his attack.  Evidence shows free birth control will reduce abortions.  So far the arguments against free birth control have involved religious prudishness or monetary concerns.  Those who are making judgments against free birth control are valuing their positions over the reduction in abortions.  Asking for a reason that explains this choice does not a loaded question make.

 

They now have the knowledge that fewer abortions will take place if birth control is freely distributed.  Given what they now know, they have the option to save what they consider to be lives.  They choose not to.  I'm trying to figure out why.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #61 of 85
10/14/12 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Oh, I know what he was attacking.  He's wrong in his attack.  Evidence shows free birth control will reduce abortions.  So far the arguments against free birth control have involved religious prudishness or monetary concerns.  Those who are making judgments against free birth control are valuing their positions over the reduction in abortions.  Asking for a reason that explains this choice does not a loaded question make.

 

They now have the knowledge that fewer abortions will take place if birth control is freely distributed.  Given what they now know, they have the option to save what they consider to be lives.  They choose not to.  I'm trying to figure out why.

 

I completely agree with your basic position on this, but I think the point is that many of those who don't agree are driven by belief rather than money, even though the funding issue gets brought up as a backup argument. But either way, until you can get agreement that the position is based on an objection to funding rather than anything else, you cannot employ that question to make the argument; it immediately enables the loaded question defense.

Reply
Reply
post #62 of 85
10/14/12 at 12:37pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

If you are an anti-government nutter and complain about having to contribute to the birth control of others, you are placing monetary concerns over the blastocysts/zygotes/fetuses you claim you care about.

 

If you are an anti-sex nutter and complain about the morality of birth control, you are placing those prudish concerns over the blastocysts/zygotes/fetuses you claim you care about.

 

I did not intend to form a loaded question.  By not splitting the two groups and making individual statements for both, MJ took advantage to distract from the issue at hand.  The intent was clear.  What MJ did was no different from pointing out a grammatical error to distract from a topic.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #63 of 85
10/14/12 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

If you are an anti-government nutter and complain about having to contribute to the birth control of others, you are placing monetary concerns over the blastocysts/zygotes/fetuses you claim you care about.

 

If you are an anti-sex nutter and complain about the morality of birth control, you are placing those prudish concerns over the blastocysts/zygotes/fetuses you claim you care about.

 

I did not intend to form a loaded question.  By not splitting the two groups and making individual statements for both, MJ took advantage to distract from the issue at hand.  The intent was clear.  What MJ did was no different from pointing out a grammatical error to distract from a topic.  

 

Yes - I was merely pointing out that you enabled it. Big surprise when he seized the opening, eh? But bear in mind that the argument only works anyway if money is the acknowledged issue, so it will still be difficult to pin them down.

Reply
Reply
post #64 of 85
10/14/12 at 1:25pm

Nice of both of you to argue between yourselves about how you're both right and I'm wrong.

 

But...

 

The fact is that BR is offering a loaded question. This isn't an issue of mere debate and discussion tactics (on my part, though it surely is on his.)

 

There are actually multiple issues at play here and BR, as usual is mixing them, muddling them and throwing in his own bigotry and air of superiority to try and "win" the "debate."

 

His claims amount to false dichotomies mixed with loaded questions.

 

Let's try to break this down:

 

1. Can you be pro-life and still be opposed to giving people free birth control? Yes.

 

2. Can you favor giving people free birth control be opposed doing it through the state? Yes.

 

3. Can you be pro-life and not anti-sex? Yes.

 

Further questions might be (since BR has chosen to cloud his "debate" with editorial):

 

1. Can you be opposed to government involvement in this issue and not be an "anti-government nutter?" Yes.

 

2. Can you be anti-government not be a "nutter?" Yes.

 

3. Can you be opposed to giving people free birth control (either privately or through the state) and not be an "anti-sex nutter?" Yes.

 

BR basically muddled the issue from the very beginning with his assumptions and religious bigotry. He started with the claim that the only options are:

 

A. Pro-life and support giving away free birth-control (through the state), or...

B. Anti-sex religious nutbag.

 

Later he added another option:

 

C. Anti-government nutter.

 

This isn't the starting point of a reasoned discussion.

 

Bottom line? BR isn't interested in a reasoned, rational and level-headed discussion. He just wants to poke the hornet's nest and then reserve the right to appear like he's got the high ground when he gets stung.


Edited by MJ1970 - 10/14/12 at 1:30pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #65 of 85
10/14/12 at 1:30pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

So, what precisely are you putting ahead of the alleged lives you are allegedly attempting to protect in choosing more abortions over free birth control?  Enlighten us, MJ.  Or will you dance and avoid the issue more?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #66 of 85
10/14/12 at 1:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So, what precisely are you putting ahead of the alleged lives you are allegedly attempting to protect in choosing more abortions over free birth control?  Enlighten us, MJ.  Or will you dance and avoid the issue more?

 

I have no problem with giving someone free birth-control. You're free to do this as much as you like. You're also free to convince as many people as you can to do the same. I oppose (like you claim to) imposing my values on others and so I oppose taking other people's money by force in order to support my values. Personally though, I put my money toward other live saving and persevering charities and organizations. Finally, there are other ways to reduce abortions you just don't like to hear that.

 

 

I'm done with your false dichotomies (among other fallacies.) When you're interested in having a reasoned discussion, let me know. I won't hold my breath.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #67 of 85
10/14/12 at 1:40pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

So your views on the role of government take precedence over the reduction in abortions.  Got it.  You could have just said that and cut out all the histrionics.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #68 of 85
10/14/12 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So your views on the role of government take precedence over the reduction in abortions.  Got it.  You could have just said that and cut out all the histrionics.

 

Again...more with the false dichotomies.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #69 of 85
10/14/12 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Nice of both of you to argue between yourselves about how you're both right and I'm wrong.

 

Just to be clear - that we differ on a matter of opinion does not imply that I believe you are wrong. I was not disputing your opinion - just commenting on the structure of the argument. So please don't use that straw man.

Reply
Reply
post #70 of 85
10/14/12 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

Just to be clear - that we differ on a matter of opinion does not imply that I believe you are wrong. I was not disputing your opinion - just commenting on the structure of the argument. So please don't use that straw man.

 

I was referring to your comments about the structure of the argument.

 

Fact is, BR is simply trying to setup traps (using false dichotomies and loaded questions, et al) and coax people into them. BR is well-known as a religious bigot and this thread is another in a long train of his crapping all over the forum with this bigotry.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #71 of 85
10/14/12 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

Just to be clear - that we differ on a matter of opinion does not imply that I believe you are wrong. I was not disputing your opinion - just commenting on the structure of the argument. So please don't use that straw man.

 

I was referring to your comments about the structure of the argument.

 

Fact is, BR is simply trying to setup traps (using false dichotomies and loaded questions, et al) and coax people into them.

 

Obviously, but my comments on the structure did not imply that you are wrong. Personally I think that BR is simply trying to construct an argument that it is inconsistent to be pro-life while opposing taxpayer funding of birth control. I think the fallacies are arising unintentionally because the argument cannot be made as stated.

Reply
Reply
post #72 of 85
10/14/12 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

Obviously, but my comments on the structure did not imply that you are wrong. Personally I think that BR is simply trying to construct an argument that it is inconsistent to be pro-life while opposing taxpayer funding of birth control. I think the fallacies are arising unintentionally because the argument cannot be made as stated.

 

I see that's what he's trying to do. And perhaps I'm not giving him enough benefit of the doubt (experience is my guide here.) I agree that the argument cannot be made as stated. He's looking for an inconsistency (or hypocrisy) by over simplifying the issue (IMO).

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #73 of 85
10/14/12 at 3:06pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

I don't see it as an oversimplification at all.  Many of those who are opposed to abortion believe that it is murder. Here we have a proven way to reduce the number of abortions--something that is actually feasible and could be passed in a bipartisan manner, unlike the overturning of Roe v Wade--but the alleged pro-lifers here aren't jumping at the chance to save lives.  They present a litany of excuses, but don't show a single ounce of pragmatism.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #74 of 85
10/14/12 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I don't see it as an oversimplification at all.  Many of those who are opposed to abortion believe that it is murder. Here we have a proven way to reduce the number of abortions--something that is actually feasible and could be passed in a bipartisan manner, unlike the overturning of Roe v Wade--but the alleged pro-lifers here aren't jumping at the chance to save lives.  They present a litany of excuses, but don't show a single ounce of pragmatism.

 

Right - but they have a alternative solution to the problem - outlaw abortions. Hence the false dichotomy accusations. A very poor solution in my opinion, but consistent with those beliefs.

Reply
Reply
post #75 of 85
10/14/12 at 3:29pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

They have no feasible solution.  Furthermore, abortion cannot be outlawed unless Roe v Wade is revisited and overturned.  That's not happening any time soon.  In the meantime, free birth control would serve their ends in reducing abortions until they could achieve their ultimate goal.  Not a false dichotomy.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #76 of 85
10/14/12 at 6:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I don't see it as an oversimplification at all.  Many of those who are opposed to abortion believe that it is murder. Here we have a proven way to reduce the number of abortions--something that is actually feasible and could be passed in a bipartisan manner, unlike the overturning of Roe v Wade--but the alleged pro-lifers here aren't jumping at the chance to save lives.

 

How do you know that? You seem to be assuming it.

 

For example, many people who oppose abortion also support things like crisis pregnancy centers (and related organizations that support those who become pregnant) that help someone in this situation pursue alternatives to abortion and are perfectly consistent with a pro-life stance that does not subsidize and support other immoral (in their view) behavior such as having sex outside of marriage. But even setting those aside how do you know that pro-lifers do not (in one way or another) help to provide free birth-control for those unable to afford it?

 

Your claim is that if someone is pro-life then they should put their money toward free birth-control for people to avoid unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

 

The false dichotomy comes into play when you assume that this is the only way (or even the best way) to be pro-life. That is not necessarily true, but you are assuming it as fact. The second part comes when you assume that the only way to avoid abortions is to have free birth-control. This is also incorrect but you also state this as indisputable fact.

 

There's a lot more nuance to this discussion that you are either capable or willing to acknowledge and engage in so I'll stop here.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #77 of 85
10/14/12 at 6:13pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

I never once said it was the only way.  You are putting words in my mouth.  However, it is an excellent, proven, cheap way to do so.  Not including this in the pro-life arsenal demonstrates a level of hypocrisy.

 

And crisis-pregnancy centers...yeah...wonderful places that disseminate false medical information.  So, lying is fine.  Just don't encourage and facilitate safe-sex practices.  That's the line.

 

 

 

Quote:

Journalists, medical researchers, congressional investigators, prospective CPC clients, and pro-choice advocates have routinely found that CPCs disseminate false medical information.[12] In a few cases, such information may be based on decades-old studies that have been discredited by more recent research.[13] In others, CPCs claim an existing scientific consensus in favor of such information.[1] The information is usually about the supposed health risks of abortion; centers fail to mention that abortion is 11 to 12 times safer than childbirth.[13][27] Some centers even say that "terminating a pregnancy is far more dangerous than carrying a baby to term", although the opposite is the case.[11]

One common piece of medical misinformation is the assertion of a link between abortion and breast cancer.[12][1][4][11][13][22][27][33][34][35][36][37][38] One crisis pregnancy center counselor is reported to have told a client that "50 percent of women who have an abortion get breast cancer and 30 percent die within a year of the procedure";[36]others have claimed a 50% increase,[1]:8 an 80% increase,[1]:8,[11][35] a doubled increase,[1]:8[37] a quadrupled increase,[39] or said that a client with breast cancer in her family would certainly get cancer and die if she had an abortion.[35] Major medical bodies (including the National Cancer Institute[40]) say that there is no link between abortion and breast cancer.[13][22][33][34][35]

Another is the assertion of a link between abortion and mental health problems. CPC counselors are reported to have conveyed various supposed psychological consequences of abortion, including high rates of depression, "post-abortion syndrome", post-traumatic stress disorder, suicide, substance abuse, sexual and relationship dysfunction, propensity to child abuse, and other emotional problems.[1][5][11][13][22][34][35][38][39][41][42][43] Figures included a 50% chance of long-term emotional problems[34] or trauma,[1] nine in ten women suffering "post-abortion syndrome",[1] and a sevenfold increase in the suicide rate;[1] one center said that anyone who had had an abortion was certain to experience mental health problems like those suffered by Vietnam veterans.[1] Neither the American Psychiatric Association nor theAmerican Psychological Association recognizes the existence of "post-abortion syndrome", and an American Psychological Association review of relevant studies found that "abortion is usually psychologically benign."[1][22][34][35]

CPCs may also claim that surgical abortion is a dangerous procedure, with a high risk of perforation or infection.[5][13][34][35][37][39][41][43] One CPC counselor is reported to have told an undercover investigator that a patient was left needing a colostomy bag after her bowel was perforated;[39] several reports mention that a CPC described or depicted a woman dying as a result of the procedure.[35][37][44] However, fewer than 0.3% of women who have abortions experience complications that necessitate hospitalization.[34]

The alleged risk of perforation and infection is also part of the assertion that abortion negatively impacts future childbearing, by increasing the risk of infertility, miscarriages, complications, ectopic pregnancy, or fetal health problems.[1][11][13][34][35][38][39][41][42][43] One center claimed that there was a one in four chance of not being able to carry another pregnancy.[43] These claims are not supported by medical data.[1][34][43]

Besides false information about health risks of abortion, CPCs have also been found to disseminate misinformation about birth control methods, in particular the idea that contraception and condoms do not work or have harmful effects.[13][21][22][34][35][39][44] Some counselors said that "all condoms are defective and have slots and holes in them"[13]or that they fail "something like 40 percent of the time."[22] Other centers said that condoms were permeable to HIV or other diseases,[21] or that hormonal contraceptives had abortifacient effects and did long-term harm to women's health, such as causing infertility and cancer,[34][35] while one said that condoms caused cancer.[39]

Other false information may concern the methodology of pregnancy tests,[44] the advisability of STI testing on pregnant women,[35] the comparative risk, availability, and advisability of abortion at different stages of pregnancy,[37][39][43][45]descriptions of female anatomy,[43] the rate of postpartum depression among women who carry to term,[1] the progression of fetal development,[37][39] fetal pain,[37] the possibility of getting pregnant from rape,[39] the progression of pregnancy,[21] and the number of pregnancies that end in natural miscarriages.[21]

Pro-choice organizations like Planned Parenthood, the National Abortion Federation, and Choice Ireland have criticized CPCs' dissemination of false medical information.[4][45][46] Care Net denounces "any form of deception in its corporate advertising or individual conversations with its clients", though they also say of their promotion of an abortion–breast cancer link that their "role is clearly to include this possible risk when [they] educate clients about all the risks of abortions."[27]

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #78 of 85
10/14/12 at 6:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I never once said it was the only way.  You are putting words in my mouth.

 

Not explicitly, but you are clearly implying it.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

However, it is an excellent, proven, cheap way to do so.  Not including this in the pro-life arsenal demonstrates a level of hypocrisy.

 

In your opinion.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #79 of 85
10/14/12 at 6:19pm
Thread Starter 
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance

You infer incorrectly.  You have a weapon against abortions that you refuse to use.  Just admit that you are placing those principles behind your refusal over the fetuses you could save.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #80 of 85
10/14/12 at 6:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You have a weapon against abortions that you refuse to use.

 

Whatever. I'm done with your unsupported assumptions, fallacious thinking, hypocrisy and religious bigotry.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › If you are really pro-life and not just anti-sex religious nutbags...