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Apple's redesigned iMac is 5mm thin with edge-to-edge glass - Page 3

post #81 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post


Sorry but that's hot air in itself. Heat does not rise fast enough on its own to keep such a tight enclosure and fast running CPU cool. The stack effect, if that's what you're thinking of, does not work well here.

 Yup

post #82 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash_beezy View Post

I don't see the point of removing the optical drive in a pure desktop machine...but I'll hand it to them, it's quite a beauty!

 

I totally agree.    What's the difference how thin it is when it sits on top of a desk?  As long as it's thinner than the stand, that's all it needs to be.  Removing the drive is just Apple being obnoxious and forcing us to use iTunes.   But people still want to watch DVDs or move large files around via CD-R or DVD-R and still want the ability to download tunes from a music CD.     It might be old technology, but it's still extremely practical and Apple seems to be on a tear lately to make our lives more difficult just to make things thin or zen.    Design should serve function - function shouldn't serve design.  

post #83 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

I totally agree.    What's the difference how thin it is when it sits on top of a desk?  As long as it's thinner than the stand, that's all it needs to be.  Removing the drive is just Apple being obnoxious and forcing us to use iTunes.   But people still want to watch DVDs or move large files around via CD-R or DVD-R and still want the ability to download tunes from a music CD.     It might be old technology, but it's still extremely practical and Apple seems to be on a tear lately to make our lives more difficult just to make things thin or zen.    Design should serve function - function shouldn't serve design.  

Amazon MP3 is still available. Netflix and Hulu are still available.

Life moves on.
Edited by JeffDM - 10/24/12 at 5:23am
post #84 of 187

So are the top end versions of these new imac going to be adequate for FCP and FCP X?  I run a small post facility and we do fairly typical spot work.  No complex effects or rendering.  Just offline on Final Cut  and then online in Smoke.  With a AJA IO XT on Thunderbolt for video monitoring and a Pegasus (or similar) for a RAID this seems like a decent Mac Pro replacement for our type of work.  Of course with maxed out RAM and CPU speed.

post #85 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

 

What happens when ... ?

 

Same thing that happens when someone shows up with an audio or vhs cassette. First we mock and laugh uncontrollably. Then we hold a mini intervention.

 

Not only is it analogous to the floppy removal, optical media is actually less common today than floppies were back when the imac first came out. For example, students today almost never use optical disks. Back when the imac was released, many students still used floppies. It was truly the only option if you didn't have a computer and were doing assignment on lab computers. Same thing with turning in assignments. Kids these days, they don't even want to touch a CD. Most wouldn't even care if their car didn't have a CD player. But tell them that they can't plug in the ipod or smart phone... now that is a tragedy.

 

Edit:

 

And as for grandma. She's already on facebook if she cares about seeing photos of the grandkids.

So kids are the entire market for this computer?

 

On what basis are you claiming that optical media is less common today than floppies when the iMac was released?   I don't have the numbers in front of me, but IIRC, DVD movies alone are still a $4 billion business in the U.S.    Blu-ray is another $1 billion.   As per my above post, there are three very valid uses of optical media in a computer:

1.  Watching DVDs (or Blu-rays, but god forbid Apple should support those)

2.  Transporting large files without waiting for a download.

3.  Loading CD tracks into iTunes

 

The lack of the optical drive is about two things:

- Apple's obsession with thinness

- Apple's desire to FORCE everyone to only buy media via iTunes.

 

I work with people who contribute audio files to a website.   These files are very large and the only practical way of delivering them is via optical media - I've found services such as Dropbox to be unreliable.    And while overall music industry sales are half (including downloads) of their 1999 peak, there are still several hundred million CDs sold each year in the U.S. alone.    So while 12-year-olds might have no desire for a CD/DVD drive, people who do real work and have legacy collections still need/want one.    And what's the point of buying an "all-in-one" laptop or a beautiful iMac if I have to clutter my desk with external crap?  It should have remained an option.

post #86 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post


Just because you need gas economy more than aerodynamics does not mean you cannot appreciate a Porsche. I accept that this might not stir your loins. But I hope, for your sake, that you are able to recognize there is more innovation here than just aesthetics.

 

What excites me is seeing innovation on all fronts.  It looks like Jony Ive's industrial design team is pushing the envelope, now let's see the hardware design team do the same.  Though I guess we may have to wait until Apple switches from relying on Intel's architectural timelines, to charting their own with the A series architecture.  Given how fast iPads and iPhones are iterating and improving that architecture, it likely won't be long.

 
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post #87 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash_beezy View Post

I don't see the point of removing the optical drive in a pure desktop machine...but I'll hand it to them, it's quite a beauty!

There may be some people that use the optical drive often.  Me?  I'm not one of them.  I purchased a MBA and an external optical drive to install some software but once that was done, I have to search the house for that thing because I haven't used that optical drive since!

 

People that complain about one more piece to carry around?  It's going to be on your desk!  People who complain about clutter?  Huh?  My external Optical cost me $40.00 bucks and it's size fits on the iMac big silver foot holding up the computer and one cord going to the back to hook it up and power the thing?  Feeble arguments from some,  lying on their bed, looking up to the ceiling to their old, faded poster of iMacs with built in optical drives! </sarcasm>

 

Embrace the future!  How did Obama put it...  the Nineties called and they want their computers with internal optical drives back!

/

/

Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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post #88 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post


Awww ... show me what meanness you had in store for me; I can take it :)

 

Seriously, it's not a matter of thinness but rather the process getting there. There are two aspects to the process: First, Apple had to develop innovative manufacturing processes. Second, it's the process of introducing impossibly thin devices ALL ACROSS their product lineups!!


No kidding.  Samsung has to buy more advanced copiers to start cloning this beauty!

post #89 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

Ooops - misread you and was gonna post something mean.... Edge thin/thickness is important in the sense that from most angles it LOOKS so impossibly thin and light. But my desk face the door to my office which means that I approach my mac from 'the back', so to speak. I wonder what the very bulbous looking back will look like in real life. Will I need to re-configure my office?

 

I think I'm beginning to understand where Apple and I started taking diverging paths. I base the value of the machine on what I can accomplish with it. Apple is responding to those for whom the primary measure is how it looks.

 

I get it, it really does look nice, but the BENEFIT is lost on me. Whether it's one inch deep or three it still occupies the same amount of workspace area. What does the user gain through a small reduction in depth? The footprint doesn't change. What am I missing?

 

FOR THE RECORD: No offense meant to anyone who really likes the new form. I'm not condemning it, I'm just saying I don't get it, that's all.

post #90 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post


Sorry but that's hot air in itself. Heat does not rise fast enough on its own to keep such a tight enclosure and fast running CPU cool. The stack effect, if that's what you're thinking of, does not work well here.


Sorry, but when it comes to thermal management, I'll trust Apple's method more than anyone else.  The iMac will still use fans, and due to the fan-blade design, it still makes for a much quieter environment when the heat kicks in.

I have to believe there is someone in their lab to cranks the heat all the way up and watches what it does.  I trust they know that much.

However, I will apply for a trademark for "Fan-gate" and "Heat-gate".  Any other ones?

post #91 of 187

The chin it's sill got that chin!!! You would have thought after 7 years plus they could have come up with a design without it.

post #92 of 187
Originally Posted by Odysseus1923 View Post
The chin it's sill got that chin!!! You would have thought after 7 years plus they could have come up with a design without it.

 

Why? They like it.

 

Anyone else notice that you cannot buy an iMac right now, and will not be able to buy an iMac for, at minimum, another week? Apple is no longer selling the iMac. That's a powerful statement.

 

Not even preorders:

 

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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post #93 of 187
I'd rather have a PC
-said by no one
post #94 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


Sorry, but when it comes to thermal management, I'll trust Apple's method more than anyone else.  The iMac will still use fans, and due to the fan-blade design, it still makes for a much quieter environment when the heat kicks in.

I have to believe there is someone in their lab to cranks the heat all the way up and watches what it does.  I trust they know that much.

However, I will apply for a trademark for "Fan-gate" and "Heat-gate".  Any other ones?

 

Apple laptops have good thermal management provided that you don't use them for 100% CPU (on all cores) + 100% GPU tasks for a long time. If you do, CPU heat rises up to 90ºC and fans spin at max speed, and just touching the laptop can make you feel a bit worried about if such use could cause harm to your laptop: they don't seem to be designed for such a 100% resources work.

 

While I understand that this "to the limit" thermal behaviour might be reasonable for laptops, I don't agree to have it on a desktop. The new iMac design looks like if it can suffer the same thermal limits as current Apple laptops, and that wouldn't be nice. If you look at the photos posted today, you'll see the iMac advertised with last generation games... but... if playing such games pushes the iMac thermal design to the limit, then it's not a good design, no matter how much I love this new look.

post #95 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

That's nice, but the total thickness doesn't appear to be noticeably thinner, measure it from the thickest point, like the way we should measure Android phones.
The back is clearly a lot more curved than the previous version. I also question the wisdom of the SD card in the back. That makes it a bit awkward to use, either turn the entire machine around or grope around for the slot. I really liked the side edge slot.

 

I agree. As a photographer needing to swap cards out frequently, this is not optimal. I would have rather it been on the bottom. 

post #96 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

So kids are the entire market for this computer?

 

On what basis are you claiming that optical media is less common today than floppies when the iMac was released?   I don't have the numbers in front of me, but IIRC, DVD movies alone are still a $4 billion business in the U.S.    Blu-ray is another $1 billion.   As per my above post, there are three very valid uses of optical media in a computer:

1.  Watching DVDs (or Blu-rays, but god forbid Apple should support those)

2.  Transporting large files without waiting for a download.

3.  Loading CD tracks into iTunes

 

The lack of the optical drive is about two things:

- Apple's obsession with thinness

- Apple's desire to FORCE everyone to only buy media via iTunes.

 

I work with people who contribute audio files to a website.   These files are very large and the only practical way of delivering them is via optical media - I've found services such as Dropbox to be unreliable.    And while overall music industry sales are half (including downloads) of their 1999 peak, there are still several hundred million CDs sold each year in the U.S. alone.    So while 12-year-olds might have no desire for a CD/DVD drive, people who do real work and have legacy collections still need/want one.    And what's the point of buying an "all-in-one" laptop or a beautiful iMac if I have to clutter my desk with external crap?  It should have remained an option.


These people that suddenly show up with made-up statistics ("optical media less common today than floppies back in the day") dont add nothing to an educated well formed discussion.

 

Thank you for your reply. I was about to do the same thing and expose the same arguments. I'll also add, buying classical and opera albums on mp3 / iTunes format is a big no-no for me. Still go for optical there. And should I ignore my +1000 CD collection? my +1000 DVD collection?

 

Extra note. I work with a lot of 2 minute to 10 minute video spots, from various sources including TV stations and media companies, and their favorite storage solution is still the DVD. You try looking professional to a costumer by sending dropbox download links or through a USB drive. "Please return USB drive to us after you are done".. Uh... No.

 

Sorry. All in one this is not.

post #97 of 187
I thought the best part of the event was when Apple Insider's live blog announced the new iMacs have the retina display.
post #98 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by night9hawk View Post

I'm surprised nobody has commented on the fact that neither of the new iMacs have a FireWire port on the back. RIP...

You can still use Firewire with a Thunderbolt to Firewire adaptor - at least there are two Thunderbolt ports. But yeah, Firewire hard drives won't be made any more.

post #99 of 187

Re: I thought the best part of the event was when Apple Insider's live blog announced the new iMacs have the retina display.

 

They do if you stand far enough away !!!

post #100 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stageron View Post

Has anyone noticed that Apple is now using 5400 RPM drives. WTF! Really? This sucks.

Only in the 21 inch. I fear it's a laptop drive - I'd rather have 750 GB at 7200-rpm (instead of 1 TB at 5400-rpm), as you can get in the MacBook Pro.

post #101 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by initiator View Post

Really? For a DESKTOP computer that I just spent $1200+ for? So I bought this beautiful all-in-one computer only to have to make it ugly by buying an external burner? Look, I get it. Apple has decided that the optical drive is obsolete. I understand eliminating it on a laptop, but not on a desktop. I'm not a fan of losing the FW ports either. Yes, yes, I can buy an adapter, but again, why? Apple declaring something obsolete doesn't necessarily make it so.

That's all I'm saying. I bought the previous generous iMac with optical drive, and I'm quite happy about that. If you don't need one, cool. But, I would venture to guess I'm not the only person who will be unhappy to see this gone.

I agree with you - I use the optical drive almost daily (I produce DVDs of martial arts workshops).

post #102 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

IF you use (or need in this case) to use something like DIskWarrior, one must be able to boot from a DVD or another drive. So, if we need to use utilities, optical drives are kind of still needed.  Plus, some people like to make archival DVD/CD copies of audio/video/data and there are a LOT of people, like myself, that STILL buy CDs and transfer their music to HD for lossless audio rather than dl from iTunes like content suppliers.  Some of use can hear the difference between compressed and uncompressed audio.

Thanks for bringing reason into the discussion. Now get ready for the backlash.

post #103 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


Actually, iMac 2011 does have a mild antiglare coating. I can tell by the color shifts and by comparing it with a real, untreated glossy glass surface. By bonding the front glass to the panel, you are reducing the number of reflective surfaces by two thirds.
The Retina MBP did indeed get a significant reduction in glare. To the point where I don't think it's a big deal anymore. Even matte surfaces get reflection, in reality, it's just blurred.

According to Apple, the Retina MBP cuts glare significantly. However, I find that the glare is still there, it just isn't as sharp (it's not like a mirror anymore, it kind of spreads the glare out to a wider area). It looks pretty unnatural to me. This sounds better, but we'll see how it actually looks.

post #104 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDBLACK View Post

 

 

 

Yes. Very ugly.

 

Where's the cord?

post #105 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by enjourni View Post

I work at an Apple Specialist and the design of these things must be unbelievable. They shrunk every major component by an insane amount - power supply, fans, heat sinks... all must be positively micro to fit in a unit this size.
It's a wonder this unit doesn't melt the instant you turn it on.
Very impressive job, Apple.

Don't speak too soon - with Apple's quality control lately, some of them just might melt.

post #106 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post


Awww ... show me what meanness you had in store for me; I can take it :)

 

Seriously, it's not a matter of thinness but rather the process getting there. There are two aspects to the process: First, Apple had to develop innovative manufacturing processes. Second, it's the process of introducing impossibly thin devices ALL ACROSS their product lineups!!

And third, they had to cripple some components (5400-rpm drive laptop drive in a desktop).

post #107 of 187

This was exactly what I was hoping for!

 

I'm looking forward to ordering a 21.5" with the 1 TB fusion drive.

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post #108 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


Amazon MP3 is still available. Netflix and Hulu are still available.
Live moves on.

That's great, if you like compressed music, obnoxious Hulu commercials, and watching Netflix through the Silverlight player (and not getting recent movies). That's how life should be - a descent toward the bottom.

post #109 of 187

I hope the 1TB HDD isn't a Seagate

 

http://www.apple.com/support/imac-harddrive/

Shut up and go away, you useless, pathetic FUDmonger - Tallest Skil
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post #110 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

 

I agree. As a photographer needing to swap cards out frequently, this is not optimal. I would have rather it been on the bottom. 

You need one of these

 

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post #111 of 187

Very nice machine, but marketing pictures are little misrepresenting the true thickness.

http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apples-new-imac-thicker-than-it-seems

I actually believed that it was 5mm thick throughout the machine, since unable to watch the launch presentation. Little disappointed that it is not and other people will be, once they see the machine in-store.

Maybe old fashioned and just like pure honesty.

post #112 of 187

Do the new iMacs support jumbo frames? My i7 27" iMac doesn't and I dream of one day being able to re-enable jumbo frames on the home LAN. 

post #113 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henrique Cabral View Post


These people that suddenly show up with made-up statistics ("optical media less common today than floppies back in the day") dont add nothing to an educated well formed discussion.

Thank you for your reply. I was about to do the same thing and expose the same arguments. I'll also add, buying classical and opera albums on mp3 / iTunes format is a big no-no for me. Still go for optical there. And should I ignore my +1000 CD collection? my +1000 DVD collection?

Extra note. I work with a lot of 2 minute to 10 minute video spots, from various sources including TV stations and media companies, and their favorite storage solution is still the DVD. You try looking professional to a costumer by sending dropbox download links or through a USB drive. "Please return USB drive to us after you are done".. Uh... No.

Sorry. All in one this is not.



"What am I suppose to do with the hundreds of floppy disks I have" said by thousands when the original iMac came out.

I understand people still have a need for optical discs but in a couple of years it won't matter. There will still be a market for external optical disc drives for years to come and eventually those will be phased out just like floppy drives.

I'm sure apple's has looked at the statistics and realized the majority of users rarely use an optical drive and its just wasted space and stupidity expensive to repair for users when it fails while external optical drives run $40 or so.

Personally I haven't had a need for a optical drive in my MacBook Air since I got it in 2011. Every single program is downloadable and I usually do that when I have the disc just download the latest version to be safe like I always have done. Music is purchased online (amazon, iTunes etc) and movies are played on my Blu-ray player
post #114 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Absolutely stunning. 

 

Phil goes, "we actually merge the molecules" and I go "yeah, we're NEVER getting inside this thing again!"

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harbinger View Post

Anyone who thinks edge thinness is no big deal ... is really misunderstanding technology and should have free speech privilege revoked.

It's difficult to tell whether this is sarcasm. It should be sarcasm, but I'm not entirely sure. The reason thickness shouldn't matter much with a desktop is that it has virtually no effect on where it can be placed or how it can be used. The cords tend to ensure that it won't be moved around much, and this doesn't offer anything in the way of device consolidation. If you were sitting in front of one, you'd never notice the difference in density. What concerns me is that Apple has in the past prioritized aesthetics over things like quiet operation. The mini can generate a fair amount of fan noise, and this isn't something that should be necessary on a desktop. Desktops should not be subject to potential throttling or noise issues as you would have with a notebook. Otherwise that is yet another advantage ticked off the list. In terms of glare reduction, I like that part. Matte coatings apply a very small bump so that light is reflected in different angles or scattered. It's somewhat of a micro-faceted effect. Taking this approach of just trying to reduce glare as much as possible isn't so bad. If color viewing is critical, you should work in a light controlled environment anyway. It's just important that the user isn't obviously reflected due to the backlight from the display.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


Actually, iMac 2011 does have a mild antiglare coating. I can tell by the color shifts and by comparing it with a real, untreated glossy glass surface. By bonding the front glass to the panel, you are reducing the number of reflective surfaces by two thirds.
The Retina MBP did indeed get a significant reduction in glare. To the point where I don't think it's a big deal anymore. Even matte surfaces get reflection, in reality, it's just blurred.
It's trivial to boot from an external drive. I think it's a non-problem. I bought an external optical drive for an old iMac with a dying optical drive. A $30 external drive beat buying a $100 part and getting inside.

The bumpiness causes it to reflect in different directions when viewed from the front. I'm still disturbed by some aspects of this design. I've seen a bunch of imac problems, although I kind of want to like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecs View Post

While I really love this new look, the question that worries me is what will happen when you use it for a long raytracing task that uses all the four cores to the max... will the CPU temp rise to 90ºC like in recent Macbooks (water evaporates at 100ºC) and will fans rotate at max speed like if it was a laptop rather than a desktop? As I said, I love this look, but I expect my desktop to be able to accomplish long and intensive CPU tasks without being worried with the CPU temp. If it's noisy when doing hard work, I'll be afraid of pushing it too much, and it won't be very useful.

 

The same applies to last generation games, or even not so last generation, like "Sims 3". Will they melt the CPU?

 

I hope the Mac Pro isn't the only choice for people who need all cores at 100% during long periods of time.

The 2011 imac can already get pretty hot as it is. You should wait for others to beta test these things for you or purchase it at a time when you'll definitely have time to test it thoroughly within the return period.

post #115 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

I think I'm beginning to understand where Apple and I started taking diverging paths. I base the value of the machine on what I can accomplish with it. Apple is responding to those for whom the primary measure is how it looks.

I get it, it really does look nice, but the BENEFIT is lost on me. Whether it's one inch deep or three it still occupies the same amount of workspace area. What does the user gain through a small reduction in depth? The footprint doesn't change. What am I missing?

FOR THE RECORD: No offense meant to anyone who really likes the new form. I'm not condemning it, I'm just saying I don't get it, that's all.
One benefit is that it looks a lot nicer on your desk. The other is that it will sell a lot more if it looks nice. By the way you are talking I am not sure you remember what computers looked like 15 years ago. Hideous. Most people take pleasure in using a beautifully piece of equipment. Most people like their offices and homes to look nice. As long as the new iMac is as good, or better than its predecessor it's a win win. Remember that design can never stay still - if it does it moves backwards. That applies to 'looks' as much as technological design / development.

So when you say you are diverging, do you mean to say that you'd be happy with a souped up Quadra and lots of cables and ports as long as you have a big monitor?
post #116 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroth View Post

 

Where's the cord?

It's white (^_-)

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post #117 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post

See, Apple does listen sometimes.  I guess buying Anobit was a MAJOR part in it.  I guess the other companies are gonna have tough time figuring that one out without Anobit controller chips.  Maybe they have a TON of patents protecting them from being copied by the PC mfg. 

I am wondering what everyone is gonna do if they get the iMac screen and make TVs.  I think they might have cracked the TV screen problem at the same time. Maybe CES won't be the same........

I wouldn't think Anobit has anything to do with this. This is all making the OS know where to put files and making the file system see it as one drive. Anobit should be bringing up more reliable NAND and perhaps better controllers, of which I'm hoping means we can get faster and smaller NAND without the issues currently associated with them.

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post #118 of 187

"Insanely thin" is silly, and sacrifices reliability.

I'm an engineer, so I know something about technical design.  The thinner a computer is, the more tightly packed the components, the hotter it will run, the more likely something will fail.  This is just basic "laws of physics" stuff.  In addition, the fact that they had to struggle with getting the "screen bonding" process to work is another indication that they're on the hairy edge of this thing failing (e.g. screen delaminating over time, air bubbles appearing, etc).  Of course it looks cool, but let's face it, the older iMac looked extremely cool also (dare I say, "cool enough"?).  By pushing the packaging envelope in this way, Apple has sacrificed reliability and robustness, just to go from "ridiculously thin" to "insanely thin".  And who ultimately pays the price?  We do -- either by having to pay for Apple Care to protect our failure-prone new toy, or (if we roll the dice) by having to replace it years before we should have had to.   I would personally MUCH rather have an iMac that is less thin, has an optical drive, and will let me sleep at night not worrying that I'm "on the edge of failure" with my new toy.

post #119 of 187
1) Can't wait for December. Bought a desk and desk chair on Amazon last week in anticipation of my big move back to a desktop PC after about 12 years with a notebook.

2) FW is gone!

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post #120 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

I agree. As a photographer needing to swap cards out frequently, this is not optimal. I would have rather it been on the bottom. 

If you are swapping cards out often I'd think you'd have an external USB card reader for that.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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